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Re: [albanach] info about a web site

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  • Matthew A. C. Newsome
    I just now took a quick cursory read of the article, and found a few errors. For one, he suggests that Henry VIII forbade the use of more than 7 ells in a
    Message 1 of 11 , Jun 3, 2006
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      I just now took a quick cursory read of the article, and found a few
      errors. For one, he suggests that Henry VIII forbade the use of more than 7
      ells in a leine because "24 ells was too expensive." This passes right over
      all of the cultural reasons for the sumptuary laws passed in the Tudor era.
      If anything more than 7 ells of cloth was too expensive, I wouldn't think
      the authorities would have to pass a law forbidding people to use more than
      that. Economics would take care of it!

      Also, he mentions the use of woolen stockings in his 1314-1500 era. I've
      seen no documented use of woolen tartan stockings (by which I mean to the
      knee) prior to the early 1600s.

      His treatment of clan tartan, though he gets the main point right (no clan
      tartan) goes arwy in the specifics. People were certainly able to get
      standardized colors from vegetable dyes. Wilsons of Bannockburn did it a
      couple of decades before the introduction of analyne dyes.

      Aye,
      Eogan


      On 5/29/06, Augusto de Ornellas Abreu <augusto.ornellas@...> wrote:
      >
      > Dear Sharon,
      >
      > Perhaps you could point some of the downright wrong parts of that page. It
      > would be of great help for many of us indeed.
      >
      >
      > On 5/29/06, Sharon L. Krossa <skrossa-ml@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > At 6:52 AM +0000 5/29/06, Fearghus wrote:
      > > >does anyone know anything about this site and how authentic the info
      > > >is on it?
      > > >
      > > >http://www.historichighlanders.com/attire.htm
      > >
      > > Well, it makes a lot of claims but doesn't discuss the basis for the
      > > conclusions or cite any references. This is usually a bad sign.
      > > Looking at the actual claims, some are reasonable conclusions, many
      > > are not. Overall, I'd say it's not a very reliable page (as there is
      > > no way to figure out from the page which conclusions are reasonable
      > > and which aren't, and a large number are unreasonable -- including
      > > down right wrong).
      > >
      > > [Eogan, if this one isn't in your review page, you might want to add
      > > it -- and you can quote my comments if you wish.]
      > >
      > > Sharon, ska Effric
      > > --
      > > Sharon Krossa, skrossa-ml@...
      > > Need help with technology for your research or teaching? Hire me!
      > > http://MedievalScotland.org/hireme/<
      > http://medievalscotland.org/hireme/>
      > > Resources for Scottish history, names, clothing, language & more:
      > > Medieval Scotland - http://MedievalScotland.org/<
      > http://medievalscotland.org/>
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > This is Albanach, a group devoted to the study and re-enactment of
      > > Scotland c. 503-1603 AD.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > SPONSORED LINKS
      > > Medieval and renaissance costume<
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Medieval+and+renaissance+costume&w1=Medieval+and+renaissance+costume&w2=Medieval+time+dinner+and+tournament&w3=Scottish+life&c=3&s=98&.sig=hmZr__rp7xORsYeHcrdDjQ>
      > Medieval
      > > time dinner and tournament<
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Medieval+time+dinner+and+tournament&w1=Medieval+and+renaissance+costume&w2=Medieval+time+dinner+and+tournament&w3=Scottish+life&c=3&s=98&.sig=qz5OHdNYWUyF_XSFjieznA>
      > Scottish
      > > life<
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Scottish+life&w1=Medieval+and+renaissance+costume&w2=Medieval+time+dinner+and+tournament&w3=Scottish+life&c=3&s=98&.sig=oW8P6uoBL3ZZrlYs_fYCQg
      > >
      > > ------------------------------
      > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
      > >
      > >
      > > - Visit your group "albanach<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/albanach
      > >"
      > > on the web.
      > >
      > > - To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > > albanach-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<
      > albanach-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
      > >
      > > - Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
      > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
      > >
      > >
      > > ------------------------------
      > >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > This is Albanach, a group devoted to the study and re-enactment of
      > Scotland c. 503-1603 AD.
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >


      --
      Matthew A. C. Newsome, FSA Scot
      Curator of the Scottish Tartans Museum
      Member of the Guild of Tartan Scholars
      Homepage: http://www.albanach.org


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Sharon L. Krossa
      At 4:57 PM -0400 6/3/06, Matthew A. C. Newsome wrote (about ... I found more than a few ;-) For example, he equates the leine croich as a gambeson -- a leine
      Message 2 of 11 , Jun 4, 2006
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        At 4:57 PM -0400 6/3/06, Matthew A. C. Newsome wrote (about
        <http://www.historichighlanders.com/attire.htm>):
        >I just now took a quick cursory read of the article, and found a few
        >errors.

        I found more than a few ;-)

        For example, he equates the "leine croich" as a gambeson -- a leine
        croich is simply a saffron shirt, that is, a shirt dyed yellow. There
        is evidence that something like a gambeson was worn, but not that
        said garment was "the famous saffron shirt"/leine croich. He (or his
        sources) are mixing up and conflating different sorts of evidence
        (something seen throughout the article, with predictable results). He
        makes statements about the specific materials and patterns used by
        various levels of "clansmen" (usually a bad sign, really, when people
        go on about about "clansmen") would wear, without there being any
        evidentiary or even logical basis for the claim. (I particularly like
        the one about lower class people wearing wool tunics while upper
        class people wearing linen ones.) And so on.

        In fact, this is one of those pages where it isn't really worthwhile
        to go through and point out all the errors. There are so many details
        that are wrong or misleading, and with so many details wrong the
        broader conclusions are likewise unreliable (it doesn't matter if
        some of the boarder conclusions match those of more careful
        researchers/articles -- when they do it would appear to be by pure
        coincidence, and you can't tell which ones match unless you already
        know the answers, in which case you already know what's wrong with
        this page... ;-) It is better to skip it and use a more reliable
        article. (I expect Eogan can point out one or two of those!)

        Sharon, ska Affrick
        --
        Sharon Krossa, skrossa-ml@...
        Need help with technology for your research or teaching? Hire me!
        http://MedievalScotland.org/hireme/
        Resources for Scottish history, names, clothing, language & more:
        Medieval Scotland - http://MedievalScotland.org/
      • Matthew A. C. Newsome
        ... Which is why I didn t bother going through all the errors -- to be honest I only skimmed the article, as my time is at a premium lately. I did notice the
        Message 3 of 11 , Jun 4, 2006
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          On 6/4/06, Sharon L. Krossa <skrossa-ml@...> wrote:
          >
          > In fact, this is one of those pages where it isn't really worthwhile
          > to go through and point out all the errors. There are so many details
          > that are wrong or misleading, and with so many details wrong the
          > broader conclusions are likewise unreliable


          Which is why I didn't bother going through all the errors -- to be honest I
          only skimmed the article, as my time is at a premium lately.

          I did notice the equation in his article of the leine with the acton -- it
          seems to me that a lot of what is written about early Highland Dress
          confuses these two and makes it sound as if the only thing Gaelic men wore
          all the time was a padded acton or gambeson, that this is what the "saffron
          shirt" *was* be definition. I don't know where that one started, but it's a
          myth that needs to be put to rest!

          Aye,
          Eo





          --
          Matthew A. C. Newsome, FSA Scot
          Curator of the Scottish Tartans Museum
          Member of the Guild of Tartan Scholars
          Homepage: http://www.albanach.org


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • ebrowder@widomaker.com
          If I remember correctly, he was also wearing a large circular broach with an 18th century feileadh mor as well--and the ironwork in the background was horrible
          Message 4 of 11 , Jun 4, 2006
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            If I remember correctly, he was also wearing a large circular broach with an
            18th century feileadh mor as well--and the ironwork in the background was
            horrible as well.

            Shel

            Quoting "Sharon L. Krossa" <skrossa-ml@...>:

            > At 4:57 PM -0400 6/3/06, Matthew A. C. Newsome wrote (about
            > <http://www.historichighlanders.com/attire.htm>):
            > >I just now took a quick cursory read of the article, and found a few
            > >errors.
            >
            > I found more than a few ;-)
            >
            > For example, he equates the "leine croich" as a gambeson -- a leine
            > croich is simply a saffron shirt, that is, a shirt dyed yellow. There
            > is evidence that something like a gambeson was worn, but not that
            > said garment was "the famous saffron shirt"/leine croich. He (or his
            > sources) are mixing up and conflating different sorts of evidence
            > (something seen throughout the article, with predictable results). He
            > makes statements about the specific materials and patterns used by
            > various levels of "clansmen" (usually a bad sign, really, when people
            > go on about about "clansmen") would wear, without there being any
            > evidentiary or even logical basis for the claim. (I particularly like
            > the one about lower class people wearing wool tunics while upper
            > class people wearing linen ones.) And so on.
            >
            > In fact, this is one of those pages where it isn't really worthwhile
            > to go through and point out all the errors. There are so many details
            > that are wrong or misleading, and with so many details wrong the
            > broader conclusions are likewise unreliable (it doesn't matter if
            > some of the boarder conclusions match those of more careful
            > researchers/articles -- when they do it would appear to be by pure
            > coincidence, and you can't tell which ones match unless you already
            > know the answers, in which case you already know what's wrong with
            > this page... ;-) It is better to skip it and use a more reliable
            > article. (I expect Eogan can point out one or two of those!)
            >
            > Sharon, ska Affrick
            > --
            > Sharon Krossa, skrossa-ml@...
            > Need help with technology for your research or teaching? Hire me!
            > http://MedievalScotland.org/hireme/
            > Resources for Scottish history, names, clothing, language & more:
            > Medieval Scotland - http://MedievalScotland.org/
            >
            >
            >
            > This is Albanach, a group devoted to the study and re-enactment of
            > Scotland c. 503-1603 AD.
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Julie Stackable, SCA Margaret Hepburn
            Fearghus, I hope you know no offense was meant to you for asking about this website, but this group is truly appalling. Now, if it was just one of the *many*
            Message 5 of 11 , Jun 4, 2006
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              Fearghus,
              I hope you know no offense was meant to you for asking about this
              website, but this group is truly appalling. Now, if it was just one of
              the *many* crap 'we worship Braveheart' sites that proliferate on the
              internet, that would be one thing. But this group purports itself to
              be an organization bent on educating the public. Good god & little
              green apples. Some of the stuff on there made me laugh out loud.

              My two favorites in particular were - 1)Highland women didn't have
              pockets in their skirts because they were considered indecent (wha?)
              and 2, women's tartans were dyed lighter colors because the darker
              colors were needed for the men as camouflage for hunting or going to
              war.

              Anyway, Fearghus, I think I can say, with little sarcasm, please, for
              the love of all that is good in the world, DON't use this site for
              research. In fact, if I were mean enough, I think I would like to
              organize a write in campaign from Albanach to tell them they are full
              of poo. Or would that be mean? (grins).

              Toujours a vos ordres,
              Margaret Hepburn
              --- In albanach@yahoogroups.com, "Fearghus"
              <fearghusmacmaoildomhnaich@...> wrote:
              >
              > does anyone know anything about this site and how authentic the info
              > is on it?
              >
              > http://www.historichighlanders.com/attire.htm
              >
            • Glenn McDavid
              ... Perhaps people could contact them. However, it would really be more constructive if they were told specifics, with corrections and documentation. That
              Message 6 of 11 , Jun 4, 2006
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                On Mon, 5 Jun 2006, Julie Stackable, SCA Margaret Hepburn wrote:

                > In fact, if I were mean enough, I think I would like to
                > organize a write in campaign from Albanach to tell them they are full
                > of poo. Or would that be mean? (grins).

                Perhaps people could contact them. However, it would really be
                more constructive if they were told specifics, with corrections
                and documentation. That might actually serve some useful purpose.
                While I realize that pointing out _all_ the errors would be a lot of
                tedious work, that may not be necessary. If they actually are willing
                to correct their mistakes on several points, they may take the hint
                and undertake a general review of their work, especially if they are
                given good references to start with.

                Glenn McDavid
                gmcdavid@...
                http://www.winternet.com/~gmcdavid
              • Julie Stackable, SCA Margaret Hepburn
                That was meant, really, as tongue in cheek. I have, in the past, sent a couple of VERY gently chiding emails before requesting corrections on websites that
                Message 7 of 11 , Jun 5, 2006
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                  That was meant, really, as tongue in cheek. I have, in the past,
                  sent a couple of VERY gently chiding emails before requesting
                  corrections on websites that have never been well rec'd, so I pretty
                  much quit doing it.

                  I go back and forth on that one, because while I have a fairly
                  decent knowledge of most things, I don't have anything really
                  concrete to back it up with. "I have many years of research
                  experience" doesn't sound as good "I have my master's degree from
                  wherever".

                  Anyway, I currently don't have any plans to contact this group,
                  simply because my past experience tells me to leave well enough
                  alone.....

                  Cheers,
                  Margaret Hepburn
                  --- In albanach@yahoogroups.com, Glenn McDavid <gmcdavid@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > On Mon, 5 Jun 2006, Julie Stackable, SCA Margaret Hepburn wrote:
                  >
                  > > In fact, if I were mean enough, I think I would like to
                  > > organize a write in campaign from Albanach to tell them they are
                  full
                  > > of poo. Or would that be mean? (grins).
                  >
                  > Perhaps people could contact them. However, it would really be
                  > more constructive if they were told specifics, with corrections
                  > and documentation. That might actually serve some useful purpose.
                  > While I realize that pointing out _all_ the errors would be a lot
                  of
                  > tedious work, that may not be necessary. If they actually are
                  willing
                  > to correct their mistakes on several points, they may take the hint
                  > and undertake a general review of their work, especially if they
                  are
                  > given good references to start with.
                  >
                  > Glenn McDavid
                  > gmcdavid@...
                  > http://www.winternet.com/~gmcdavid
                  >
                • Fearghus
                  i not sure that site for resarech and wahy i ask is becuse i know some on this list has reivew it so why beat around the bush when i can house month!!!
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jun 5, 2006
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                    i not sure that site for resarech and wahy i ask is becuse i know
                    some on this list has reivew it so why beat around the bush when i can
                    house month!!!

                    --- In albanach@yahoogroups.com, "Julie Stackable, SCA Margaret
                    Hepburn" <malvoisine@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Fearghus,
                    > I hope you know no offense was meant to you for asking about this
                    > website, but this group is truly appalling. Now, if it was just one of
                    > the *many* crap 'we worship Braveheart' sites that proliferate on the
                    > internet, that would be one thing. But this group purports itself to
                    > be an organization bent on educating the public. Good god & little
                    > green apples. Some of the stuff on there made me laugh out loud.
                    >
                    > My two favorites in particular were - 1)Highland women didn't have
                    > pockets in their skirts because they were considered indecent (wha?)
                    > and 2, women's tartans were dyed lighter colors because the darker
                    > colors were needed for the men as camouflage for hunting or going to
                    > war.
                    >
                    > Anyway, Fearghus, I think I can say, with little sarcasm, please, for
                    > the love of all that is good in the world, DON't use this site for
                    > research. In fact, if I were mean enough, I think I would like to
                    > organize a write in campaign from Albanach to tell them they are full
                    > of poo. Or would that be mean? (grins).
                    >
                    > Toujours a vos ordres,
                    > Margaret Hepburn
                    > --- In albanach@yahoogroups.com, "Fearghus"
                    > <fearghusmacmaoildomhnaich@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > does anyone know anything about this site and how authentic the info
                    > > is on it?
                    > >
                    > > http://www.historichighlanders.com/attire.htm
                    > >
                    >
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