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Re: Morgan

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  • Wildecelery@aol.com
    My Laurel, Countess Morgen Duval has a 12th century Frankish Persona, and I believe her name did pass registry.... -Ardenia ... From: albanach@yahoogroups.com
    Message 1 of 2 , Mar 2, 2006
      My Laurel, Countess Morgen Duval has a 12th century Frankish Persona, and I believe her name did pass registry....

      -Ardenia

      -----Original Message-----
      From: albanach@yahoogroups.com
      To: albanach@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: 2 Mar 2006 12:57:14 -0000
      Subject: [albanach] Digest Number 869


      There are 3 messages in this issue.

      Topics in this digest:

      1. Greetings.
      From: "Morgiana Cheyney" <cltcros@...>
      2. Re: Greetings.
      From: Muirghein <wolfestead@...>
      3. Name: Morgan (was: Greetings.)
      From: "Sharon L. Krossa" <skrossa-ml@...>


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      Message: 1
      Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2006 21:44:55 -0000
      From: "Morgiana Cheyney" <cltcros@...>
      Subject: Greetings.

      Hello everyone! I just joined the list and thought I would post a
      little hello, and introduce myself. My name is Morgan Cheyney, known
      to most as Morgiana or Morgi. I have been in the SCA for about 16
      years now, and live in the Barony of Caerthe in the proud kingdom of
      the Outlands! I am a mid 14th Century Scot and have decided (finally)
      that the area around Inverness is my home (before moving to the
      Outlands of course). I am interested in costuming, embroidery,
      herbalism, archery and fencing. I really hope to learn alot from this
      group. I already have just from browsing over the past messages.

      Right now my main concern is my name. It's registered as Morgan
      Cheyney but I've always been Morgiana. I know it's not correct for the
      period. (The spelling is, but the construction isn't.) If anyone has
      any suggestions on how to keep the Morgiana (or Morgan), and the
      Cheyney, but in a more period appropriate manner, I would appreciate it.

      Thank you in advance.
      Morgi






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      Message: 2
      Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2006 14:05:49 -0800
      From: Muirghein <wolfestead@...>
      Subject: Re: Greetings.

      At 01:44 PM 3/1/2006, you wrote:
      >Hello everyone! I just joined the list and thought I would post a
      >little hello, and introduce myself. My name is Morgan Cheyney, known
      >to most as Morgiana or Morgi. I have been in the SCA for about 16
      >years now, and live in the Barony of Caerthe in the proud kingdom of
      >the Outlands! I am a mid 14th Century Scot and have decided (finally)
      >that the area around Inverness is my home (before moving to the
      >Outlands of course). I am interested in costuming, embroidery,
      >herbalism, archery and fencing. I really hope to learn alot from this
      >group. I already have just from browsing over the past messages.
      >
      >Right now my main concern is my name. It's registered as Morgan
      >Cheyney but I've always been Morgiana. I know it's not correct for the
      >period. (The spelling is, but the construction isn't.) If anyone has
      >any suggestions on how to keep the Morgiana (or Morgan), and the
      >Cheyney, but in a more period appropriate manner, I would appreciate it.
      >
      >Thank you in advance.
      >Morgi

      Hey, another 14th c. Scot who goes by "Morgan" :-).

      My originally registered name was Morgan O'Daire, but as I became
      more knowledgeable as a herald I realized that name was more
      appropriate for a late-period Welsh/Irish man than an early 14th c.
      Highland woman, so I looked into changing it. The result is in the
      sig (just "Muirghein Dhaire" -- the rest is title and clan affiliation).

      There's a lot of info on Morgan variants on the Problem Names Project
      -- http://www.medievalscotland.org/problem/names/morgan.shtml

      I know that "Muirghein" isn't properly pronounced "Morgan," but I
      don't expect we Southern Californian speakers of English to get that
      "ghy" sound right so I let it slide :-).

      Hey, Sharon, thinking back on how hard it was for you and Tangwystyl
      to describe in print how to properly pronounce my name, I'm wondering
      if small sound files on some of these pages might not help people
      with some of these difficult pronunciations. Just a thought *G*.

      In Service to Many Dreams,
      Baintighearna Muirghein Dhaire Faoilciarach /|\
      Dreiburgen Web Minister http://www.dreiburgen.org
      (any posts to e-mail lists do not reflect official
      opinions unless specifically stated otherwise)



      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________

      Message: 3
      Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 20:52:49 -0800
      From: "Sharon L. Krossa" <skrossa-ml@...>
      Subject: Name: Morgan (was: Greetings.)

      Greetings, and welcome!

      At 9:44 PM +0000 3/1/06, Morgiana Cheyney wrote:
      >the Outlands! I am a mid 14th Century Scot and have decided (finally)
      >that the area around Inverness is my home (before moving to the
      ...
      >Right now my main concern is my name. It's registered as Morgan
      >Cheyney but I've always been Morgiana. I know it's not correct for the
      >period. (The spelling is, but the construction isn't.) If anyone has
      >any suggestions on how to keep the Morgiana (or Morgan), and the
      >Cheyney, but in a more period appropriate manner, I would appreciate it.

      To the best of my knowledge, <Morgiana> is not a period name,
      Scottish or otherwise.

      <Morgan> is a fine period name, if you (or your persona) is male. It
      was not used by women until quite modern times.

      For more information on this and related names, see "Concerning the
      Names Morgan, Morgana, Morgaine, Muirghein, Morrigan, and the Like"
      at <http://MedievalScotland.org/problem/names/morgan.shtml>. (I don't
      recall whether this article discusses the Scottish use of Morgan, but
      if not the short form is that Welsh/Cumbric Morgan was borrowed into
      Gaelic, and then it seems was in turn borrowed again into Scots or
      else borrowed directly from Cumbric to Old English and so later
      Scots, so it is plausible both as a Gaelic masculine name and a
      Lowland Scots masculine name.)

      In the SCA you are free to have a persona whose gender does not match
      your real world gender, and you are also free to simply use a
      non-medieval name -- it is your choice how historically authentic you
      want to be. Unfortunately, given your name interests, you are going
      to have make some decisions about what is more important to you, as
      you won't be able to have these names *and* have a historically
      authentic name *and* have a female name. Something will have to be
      let go, but you're the only one who can decide what you're willing to
      live without.

      To add to the decisions you need to make, you should decide which
      Scottish culture your persona belongs to. Is he/she a Gael, or a
      Lowlander? You say above you have settled on the area around
      Inverness -- depending on where exactly you have placed yourself,
      this could point to a Gaelic persona or a Lowland one. (Some areas
      near Inverness, and inverness itself, were wholly or primarily
      Lowland in culture; other areas near Inverness were wholly or
      primarily Gaelic in culture.)

      <Cheyney> is, of course, a Lowland surname. 14th century forms of it
      listed in Black s.n. CHEYNE include

      de Chen, 1321 (Latin form)
      de Chen, 1305 (Latin or ANFrench form)

      Unfortunately, Black doesn't have a lot of examples, especially not
      for the 14th century.

      In this period it appears to be functioning as an inherited family
      byname (even though inherited family bynames were not yet the norm
      yet), and so rather more strongly than other 14th century bynames
      indicates a relationship to a particular noble family.

      So, if you want to have a Gaelic persona, this byname is not a very
      good choice, as the bytname and apparently the family who bore it in
      the 14th century were not Gaels. However, if you want to be a
      Lowlander, especially a Lowlander related to the noble Cheyne family,
      it is a good choice.

      Depending on which direction you want to go, I'd be happy to try to
      help you work on a 14th century Scottish name, either Gaelic or
      Lowland. Also, there are lots of resources for Scottish names, Gaelic
      and Lowland, at my web site at
      <http://MedievalScotland.org/scotnames/>.

      Sharon, ska Effric
      --
      Sharon Krossa, skrossa-ml@...
      Resources for Scottish history, names, clothing, language & more:
      Medieval Scotland - http://MedievalScotland.org/


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      This is Albanach, a group devoted to the study and re-enactment of
      Scotland c. 503-1603 AD.
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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Muirghein
      ... FWIW, the College of Heralds doesn t check your name against your persona unless you ask them to make it authentic for a certain culture. I could have a
      Message 2 of 2 , Mar 2, 2006
        At 07:13 AM 3/2/2006, Ardenia wrote:
        >My Laurel, Countess Morgen Duval has a 12th century Frankish
        >Persona, and I believe her name did pass registry....

        FWIW, the College of Heralds doesn't check your name against your
        persona unless you ask them to make it authentic for a certain
        culture. I could have a 14th c. Highland persona and register a 15th
        c. Italian name, and the CoH wouldn't care. :-)

        Now, if Her Excellency asked at the time of registration for her name
        to be authentic for a 12th c. Frank, that's another story, but I'd
        have to see the forms to know, and to the best of my knowledge those
        questions weren't on the forms in 1980 when "Morgen Duvall" was
        registered (there are no notes one way or the other on the LoAR).

        And always remember, prior registration is not proof of current
        registerability. The rules change over time as the College learns :-).

        YiS,
        Baintighearna Muirghein Dhaire Faoilciarach /|\
        Dreiburgen Web Minister http://www.dreiburgen.org
        (any posts to e-mail lists do not reflect official
        opinions unless specifically stated otherwise)
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