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A general 'Hello,' and, the inevitable question....

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  • joethesaxon
    - First off, hello to all and sundry. I ve been lurking in the fringes trolling the back messages, reading the new ones as they ve come up and feeling quite
    Message 1 of 8 , Mar 6 7:00 PM
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      - First off, hello to all and sundry. I've been lurking in the fringes
      trolling the back messages, reading the new ones as they've come up
      and feeling quite fortunate in general to have found such a fine
      resource to a knowledge of things Scottish. What can I say, but
      'bravo!'
      - As for the inevitable question mentioned in the subject heading,
      it's actually a pair of questions.
      - First, I've been poking around, looking for information regarding
      Anglo-Scottish borderers (information from the early to mid 16th
      century would be ideal, but any at all is welcome intelligence) and
      have found a surprising dearth. I own the two I've seen mentioned here
      in the past messages (George Fraser's 'The Steel Bonnets' and the
      useful little Osprey volume [Men-at-Arms #279]) and have found them
      useful, but, I was wondering if anyone else out there had suggestions
      for other works?
      - Second, and a far, far more frivolous question, regards hats. Fond
      as I am of my blue bonnet, I'm beginning to crave diversity in my
      head-gear. Short of clapping on a burgonette, what else would folks
      hereabout consider wearable, while still remaining Scottish-looking?
      I'd rather not be confused with a proper Englishman if I can help it!
      (unless it proves advantageous, that is...)
      - In any event, I'm glad to have found the list, fount of
      knowledge
      that it is.

      Cheers!
      - 'Red' Willie Elliot
    • Julie Stackable, SCA Margaret Hepburn
      Welcome to the list! Hmm, other books to suggest. There s not a lot on just the borders and what there is is usually concerned more with skirmishes &
      Message 2 of 8 , Mar 8 10:28 PM
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        Welcome to the list!
        Hmm, other books to suggest. There's not a lot on just the borders
        and what there is is usually concerned more with skirmishes &
        fortifications.... But, there are a number of general ones that
        usually containe some area specific info & I can get you specific
        titles & authors, but I would suggest adding two general ones: one,
        a good comprehensive history of Scotland and two, a clan/family
        names of Scotland, preferably one that shows heraldry. I own George
        Black's Surnames of Scotland and Johnston's Placenames of Scotland
        because a) I'm interested in that sort of stuff and b) I'm an SCA
        herald and they are useful. My favorite overall book is Madeleine
        Bingham's Scotland Under Mary Stuart: An Account of Everday Life -
        it has a LOT of general information about 16th century Scotland and
        as I do other research, I find this to be a well-researched book.
        Also, the bibliography on Sharon Krossa's website has a WEALTH of
        info.

        May I suggest to those so inclined that we might post some sort of
        personal library list in the files section? I've seen this done on
        other lists....

        As to headwear & wanting to be identified as a Scot.... Welll...
        Your bluebonnet is fine, although accounts of it are fairly late
        period for the SCA, if I recall correctly, anyone? Fashion in
        general for a Lowlander/Borderer is going to echo Western European
        fashion for the most part and this will include hats. Edinburgh
        especially as a port city has a lot of contact with the Low
        Countries & France as well as northern England - the bulk of the
        trade being done with the continent. So, depending on your era,
        you're looking at Tudor flat hats and your bonnet, which is
        basically a brimless flat hat. Tall hats were very popular in
        Scotland 1550's onward, you see a number of depictions of them in
        portraits - James Douglas by Arnold Bronkhorst is a good example of
        one.

        The wanting to be identified as a Scot is something that's been
        discussed on this list a lot in the past. In period, it wouldn't
        have been an issue - one's accent would have clearly identified one
        as being a Scot if one were travelling and that would have been the
        end of it. Plus, the average Scot never left Scotland, so what would
        be the point in making sure everyone else knew you were a Scot -
        they already knew, you had lived there all your life...

        But for some reason, and this seems endemic amongst Scots personas
        in the SCA, myself included, we want to be clearly identified as
        Scots. I'm not saying this is good, bad or indifferent - it's just
        one of those things. It appears to be one of the reasons that so
        many SCA Scots still want to cling to the idea of Clan Tartans and
        the Clan badges - what better way to announce your Scottishness,
        despite all the evidence saying this is WAY post period.

        So, what would be a period way to announce it. I can suggest one
        main one and that's to wear something with a St.Andrew's cross on
        it, such as a hat badge or token. I gave a citation some time ago on
        this list about civic badges being issued to musicians to show they
        were paid and not vagrants, I'll have to look back in the archives
        for it. You see a number of Scottish re-enactors wearing a small
        livery badge of the St. Andrew's cross sewn on their arms or over
        their breast. I have seen a couple of citations that this was done
        by soldiers during engagements with the English to clearly mark out
        which soldiers were which - these battles were messy & pre-National
        uniforms & it was important to identify the dead. Also, it's
        allowable to fly the St.Andrew's standard, which some people do in
        their campsites. However, as a warning, what is not allowable is to
        fly the Scottish Royal flag, which is the red & yellow one with the
        lion. This is considered the personal standard of the monarch. This
        doesn't seem to stop a lot of people and I'm sure you can buy one on
        the internet as I type this, but it's not correct...

        Beyond that, I would say, pick a good, period Scottish name, which
        you already seem to have done and let that do the announcing for
        you! Then, if someone asks if you where your clan tartan is or why
        you aren't wearing a kilt, rather than punching them in the nose,
        which is what I WANT to do sometimes (and what better way to
        announce you're a borderer, hey!), but cannot, take the moment to
        educate them and help bust the tartan/kilt myth....

        Sorry, that was a rambling answer for two fairly straightforward
        questions....

        Good luck with your hat search!

        Toujours a vos ordres,
        Margaret Hepburn

        --- In albanach@yahoogroups.com, "joethesaxon" <joethesaxon@y...>
        wrote:
        >
        > - First off, hello to all and sundry. I've been lurking in the
        fringes
        > trolling the back messages, reading the new ones as they've come up
        > and feeling quite fortunate in general to have found such a fine
        > resource to a knowledge of things Scottish. What can I say, but
        > 'bravo!'
        > - As for the inevitable question mentioned in the subject heading,
        > it's actually a pair of questions.
        > - First, I've been poking around, looking for information regarding
        > Anglo-Scottish borderers (information from the early to mid 16th
        > century would be ideal, but any at all is welcome intelligence) and
        > have found a surprising dearth. I own the two I've seen mentioned
        here
        > in the past messages (George Fraser's 'The Steel Bonnets' and the
        > useful little Osprey volume [Men-at-Arms #279]) and have found them
        > useful, but, I was wondering if anyone else out there had
        suggestions
        > for other works?
        > - Second, and a far, far more frivolous question, regards hats.
        Fond
        > as I am of my blue bonnet, I'm beginning to crave diversity in my
        > head-gear. Short of clapping on a burgonette, what else would folks
        > hereabout consider wearable, while still remaining Scottish-
        looking?
        > I'd rather not be confused with a proper Englishman if I can help
        it!
        > (unless it proves advantageous, that is...)
        > - In any event, I'm glad to have found the list, fount of
        > knowledge
        > that it is.
        >
        > Cheers!
        > - 'Red' Willie Elliot
      • ebrowder@widomaker.com
        And another way to identify a Scottish persona (highland persona anyway)--learn to speak Gaelic and respond in that lovely language rather than English :-))
        Message 3 of 8 , Mar 9 1:04 AM
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          And another way to identify a Scottish persona (highland persona anyway)--learn
          to speak Gaelic and respond in that lovely language rather than English :-))

          Beannachd leibh,
          Shel

          Quoting "Julie Stackable, SCA Margaret Hepburn" <malvoisine@...>:

          >
          >
          > Welcome to the list!
          > Hmm, other books to suggest. There's not a lot on just the borders
          > and what there is is usually concerned more with skirmishes &
          > fortifications.... But, there are a number of general ones that
          > usually containe some area specific info & I can get you specific
          > titles & authors, but I would suggest adding two general ones: one,
          > a good comprehensive history of Scotland and two, a clan/family
          > names of Scotland, preferably one that shows heraldry. I own George
          > Black's Surnames of Scotland and Johnston's Placenames of Scotland
          > because a) I'm interested in that sort of stuff and b) I'm an SCA
          > herald and they are useful. My favorite overall book is Madeleine
          > Bingham's Scotland Under Mary Stuart: An Account of Everday Life -
          > it has a LOT of general information about 16th century Scotland and
          > as I do other research, I find this to be a well-researched book.
          > Also, the bibliography on Sharon Krossa's website has a WEALTH of
          > info.
          >
          > May I suggest to those so inclined that we might post some sort of
          > personal library list in the files section? I've seen this done on
          > other lists....
          >
          > As to headwear & wanting to be identified as a Scot.... Welll...
          > Your bluebonnet is fine, although accounts of it are fairly late
          > period for the SCA, if I recall correctly, anyone? Fashion in
          > general for a Lowlander/Borderer is going to echo Western European
          > fashion for the most part and this will include hats. Edinburgh
          > especially as a port city has a lot of contact with the Low
          > Countries & France as well as northern England - the bulk of the
          > trade being done with the continent. So, depending on your era,
          > you're looking at Tudor flat hats and your bonnet, which is
          > basically a brimless flat hat. Tall hats were very popular in
          > Scotland 1550's onward, you see a number of depictions of them in
          > portraits - James Douglas by Arnold Bronkhorst is a good example of
          > one.
          >
          > The wanting to be identified as a Scot is something that's been
          > discussed on this list a lot in the past. In period, it wouldn't
          > have been an issue - one's accent would have clearly identified one
          > as being a Scot if one were travelling and that would have been the
          > end of it. Plus, the average Scot never left Scotland, so what would
          > be the point in making sure everyone else knew you were a Scot -
          > they already knew, you had lived there all your life...
          >
          > But for some reason, and this seems endemic amongst Scots personas
          > in the SCA, myself included, we want to be clearly identified as
          > Scots. I'm not saying this is good, bad or indifferent - it's just
          > one of those things. It appears to be one of the reasons that so
          > many SCA Scots still want to cling to the idea of Clan Tartans and
          > the Clan badges - what better way to announce your Scottishness,
          > despite all the evidence saying this is WAY post period.
          >
          > So, what would be a period way to announce it. I can suggest one
          > main one and that's to wear something with a St.Andrew's cross on
          > it, such as a hat badge or token. I gave a citation some time ago on
          > this list about civic badges being issued to musicians to show they
          > were paid and not vagrants, I'll have to look back in the archives
          > for it. You see a number of Scottish re-enactors wearing a small
          > livery badge of the St. Andrew's cross sewn on their arms or over
          > their breast. I have seen a couple of citations that this was done
          > by soldiers during engagements with the English to clearly mark out
          > which soldiers were which - these battles were messy & pre-National
          > uniforms & it was important to identify the dead. Also, it's
          > allowable to fly the St.Andrew's standard, which some people do in
          > their campsites. However, as a warning, what is not allowable is to
          > fly the Scottish Royal flag, which is the red & yellow one with the
          > lion. This is considered the personal standard of the monarch. This
          > doesn't seem to stop a lot of people and I'm sure you can buy one on
          > the internet as I type this, but it's not correct...
          >
          > Beyond that, I would say, pick a good, period Scottish name, which
          > you already seem to have done and let that do the announcing for
          > you! Then, if someone asks if you where your clan tartan is or why
          > you aren't wearing a kilt, rather than punching them in the nose,
          > which is what I WANT to do sometimes (and what better way to
          > announce you're a borderer, hey!), but cannot, take the moment to
          > educate them and help bust the tartan/kilt myth....
          >
          > Sorry, that was a rambling answer for two fairly straightforward
          > questions....
          >
          > Good luck with your hat search!
          >
          > Toujours a vos ordres,
          > Margaret Hepburn
          >
          > --- In albanach@yahoogroups.com, "joethesaxon" <joethesaxon@y...>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > - First off, hello to all and sundry. I've been lurking in the
          > fringes
          > > trolling the back messages, reading the new ones as they've come up
          > > and feeling quite fortunate in general to have found such a fine
          > > resource to a knowledge of things Scottish. What can I say, but
          > > 'bravo!'
          > > - As for the inevitable question mentioned in the subject heading,
          > > it's actually a pair of questions.
          > > - First, I've been poking around, looking for information regarding
          > > Anglo-Scottish borderers (information from the early to mid 16th
          > > century would be ideal, but any at all is welcome intelligence) and
          > > have found a surprising dearth. I own the two I've seen mentioned
          > here
          > > in the past messages (George Fraser's 'The Steel Bonnets' and the
          > > useful little Osprey volume [Men-at-Arms #279]) and have found them
          > > useful, but, I was wondering if anyone else out there had
          > suggestions
          > > for other works?
          > > - Second, and a far, far more frivolous question, regards hats.
          > Fond
          > > as I am of my blue bonnet, I'm beginning to crave diversity in my
          > > head-gear. Short of clapping on a burgonette, what else would folks
          > > hereabout consider wearable, while still remaining Scottish-
          > looking?
          > > I'd rather not be confused with a proper Englishman if I can help
          > it!
          > > (unless it proves advantageous, that is...)
          > > - In any event, I'm glad to have found the list, fount of
          > > knowledge
          > > that it is.
          > >
          > > Cheers!
          > > - 'Red' Willie Elliot
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > This is Albanach, a group devoted to the study and re-enactment of
          > Scotland c. 503-1603 AD.
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • ebrowder@widomaker.com
          ... Sharon, I learned that the hard way. I m a blacksmith at Colonial Williamsburg, which includes interpretation duties. I asked a family of visitors from
          Message 4 of 8 , Mar 9 3:17 PM
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            Quoting "Sharon L. Krossa" <skrossa-ml@...>:

            >
            > Now, one could learn to speak Scots...
            >
            > (Mind you, for distinguishing a Scottish Borderer from an English
            > Borderer, this only works in the SCA because English Borderers rarely
            > learn to speak the variety of English their personas would have
            > spoken, which would have been little different from the dialect of
            > Scots spoken by their neighbors just over the border ;-)

            Sharon, I learned that the hard way. I'm a blacksmith at Colonial Williamsburg,
            which includes interpretation duties. I asked a family of visitors from
            Carlisle, England if they were Scottish (their dialect sounded a lot like
            Glaswegian to me). I was lucky not to get a black eye :-(

            Shel
          • Sharon L. Krossa
            ... While there are a few things we know of that were worn by (some) Lowland Scots (sometimes) that were distinct from what the English normally wore, my
            Message 5 of 8 , Mar 9 3:37 PM
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              At 3:00 AM +0000 3/7/05, joethesaxon wrote:
              >- Second, and a far, far more frivolous question, regards hats. Fond
              >as I am of my blue bonnet, I'm beginning to crave diversity in my
              >head-gear. Short of clapping on a burgonette, what else would folks
              >hereabout consider wearable, while still remaining Scottish-looking?
              >I'd rather not be confused with a proper Englishman if I can help it!
              >(unless it proves advantageous, that is...)

              While there are a few things we know of that were worn by (some)
              Lowland Scots (sometimes) that were distinct from what the English
              normally wore, my advice is not to define "Scottish-looking" as
              looking different from the English.

              "Scottish-looking" is looking like the Scottish actually looked. So
              if historically some Scots dressed in ways that were
              indistinguishable from the English, then looking no different from
              the English *is* "Scottish-looking".

              Just in general I notice that, especially when it comes to Scottish
              or Irish personas, modern re-creators often have this idea that
              clothing should be like an army uniform or sports team uniform --
              it's supposed to make obvious who plays for what team. But consider:
              in period, even armies didn't wear uniforms! So why expect historical
              people's every day clothing to act like a uniform?

              I also notice that people with English personas never seem to worry
              about whether you will know right off their persona is English just
              from their clothing. They don't seem to worry about whether they
              might be mistaken for a Frenchman or Spaniard or even Scot, even
              though often their clothing is indistinguishable from that of various
              other countries.

              Of course, fashion did vary from place to place -- just like it does
              now. You could, at least sometimes, tell who came from where just
              from their clothing -- just like you can now. But not always, and
              often in subtle ways rather than big neon sign ways -- just like now.
              And, just like now, there were also general international (or rather,
              in period, European) fashions -- styles found across many countries.

              [I don't encourage basing conclusions about the past on modern
              practices (because practices are often very different), but
              sometimes, after researching a question, it turns out that modern
              practice is a useful way to explain a particular historical practice
              (because sometimes things aren't very different), as in this case.]

              So, if we have any Canadians on this list, perhaps they can tell us
              if when they get dressed each morning one of their concerns is trying
              to "look Canadian" or even avoid "looking American" in their attire.
              Or do they just put on their jeans without much thought about
              national identity, just like we do south of the border?

              I like to encourage people to not only try to be authentic in their
              dress, but also to be authentic in their attitudes. So, when it comes
              to dressing like a late period Lowlander, including Borderers, that
              means finding out what kind of clothing they wore and wearing it --
              without any concerns about whether other people will be able to tell
              that you're Scottish and not English based on your clothing.

              Turning to the famous Scottish "blue bonnet". What was it? Well,
              "bonnet" is simply a Scots word used various kinds of caps, but not
              hats. What the difference between a cap and a hat? Good question. I
              couldn't tell you, though I could make reasonably guesses about
              whether any particular male headgear was a cap or a hat. (My general
              impression is caps tend to be softer and closer to the head than
              hats.) In any case, the thing to note is that "bonnet" is a general
              clothing category, not one specific style.

              Modernly, after SCA period, "blue bonnet" does seem to have come to
              refer to a more specific style of cap -- namely, as the DSL says s.v.
              DSL - SND1 BLUE BONNET, n.
              <http://www.dsl.ac.uk/dsl/getent4.php?query=BLUE_BONNET&dregion=form&dtext=both>,
              "A man's flat-topped, round cap, without a snout." DSL-SND further
              defines a SNOUT as
              <http://www.dsl.ac.uk/dsl/getent4.php?plen=4044&startset=38379820&query=SNOUT&dregion=form&dtext=snd>
              "The peak (of a cap)." I would have thought a "snout" was like a bill
              of cap -- a forward projecting brim or shape, and it is possible that
              that is what is meant by "the peak (of a cap)", but I don't really
              know.

              In any case, this does not mean that earlier, in SCA period, a blue
              bonnet was always a round flat cap without a "snout", especially
              since we really only start to see the phrase "blue bonnet", and blue
              bonnets associated with (at least certain kinds of) Scots, in very
              late period and just post period. (See, for example, that the
              earliest example in DSL-DOST is dated a1568 [you have to look up
              Peddar C. in the bibliography to find that date]:
              <http://www.dsl.ac.uk/dsl/getent4.php?plen=8402&startset=4154618&query=Bonet&fhit=blew+bonet&dregion=entry&dtext=dost#fhit>).
              It is very likely that in SCA period, what was distinctive about
              "blue bonnets" was that they were blue, but not yet that they were a
              very particular style of cap.

              Consider, for example, the blue bonnet depicted in the 17th century
              Teilssch drawing of a highland man, which can be found as the top
              right hand picture at
              <http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/scottish/beltedplaid.html> --
              it appears to be a pretty bog standard variety of European round flat
              cap for that period, with brim.

              And, undoubtedly, blue caps were worn in England, too -- and non-blue
              caps were worn in Scotland. Blue bonnets were probably distinctively
              Scottish in late/post-period in a similar way to how jeans are
              distinctively American modernly. That is, they weren't worn only by
              Scots (just as jeans aren't worn only by Americans) but when one
              thought about it they were associated with Scots (just like when one
              thinks about it jeans are associated with Americans) -- though most
              of the time people don't think about it all that much -- and when one
              sought a symbol of Scottish attire one thought of blue bonnets (just
              like when one seeks a symbol of American attire one thinks of jeans).
              And, it occurs to me, this parallel goes even further -- jeans also
              have similar associations with lower orders and inappropriate attire
              for certain contexts in America as blue bonnets did in late and post
              period Scotland :-) And, of course, when Americans get dressed in the
              mornings they very rarely choose to wear jeans purposefully in order
              for others to be able to spot they are American, and when they don't
              choose to wear jeans it doesn't occur to them to worry that others
              won't be able to spot they are American...

              Anyway, food for thought!

              Sharon, ska Affrick
              --
              Sharon L. Krossa, skrossa-ml@...
            • Sharon L. Krossa
              ... Doesn t work for those who want a Borders persona though, as even before they spoke Scots (or, earlier, Old English) in that region they spoke Cumbric (a
              Message 6 of 8 , Mar 9 3:40 PM
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                At 4:04 AM -0500 3/9/05, Unspecified wrote:
                >And another way to identify a Scottish persona (highland persona
                >anyway)--learn
                >to speak Gaelic and respond in that lovely language rather than English :-))

                Doesn't work for those who want a Borders persona though, as even
                before they spoke Scots (or, earlier, Old English) in that region
                they spoke Cumbric (a language related to Welsh), not Gaelic.

                Now, one could learn to speak Scots...

                (Mind you, for distinguishing a Scottish Borderer from an English
                Borderer, this only works in the SCA because English Borderers rarely
                learn to speak the variety of English their personas would have
                spoken, which would have been little different from the dialect of
                Scots spoken by their neighbors just over the border ;-)

                Sharon, ska Effrick
                --
                Sharon L. Krossa, skrossa-ml@...
              • Joy L Fisher
                I have some good friends from NE England, and they sound more Scottish sounding than my friends from Glasgow ...and are much harder to understand when they
                Message 7 of 8 , Mar 9 5:43 PM
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                  I have some good friends from NE England, and they sound more
                  'Scottish' sounding than my friends from Glasgow ...and are much
                  harder to understand when they get talking fast :)

                  Aine
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: <ebrowder@...>
                  To: <albanach@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 6:17 PM
                  Subject: Re: [albanach] Identifying Scottish Personas (was: A general
                  'Hello,' and, the inevitable question....)


                  >
                  > Quoting "Sharon L. Krossa" <skrossa-ml@...>:
                  >
                  > >
                  > > Now, one could learn to speak Scots...
                  > >
                  > > (Mind you, for distinguishing a Scottish Borderer from an English
                  > > Borderer, this only works in the SCA because English Borderers rarely
                  > > learn to speak the variety of English their personas would have
                  > > spoken, which would have been little different from the dialect of
                  > > Scots spoken by their neighbors just over the border ;-)
                  >
                  > Sharon, I learned that the hard way. I'm a blacksmith at Colonial
                  Williamsburg,
                  > which includes interpretation duties. I asked a family of visitors from
                  > Carlisle, England if they were Scottish (their dialect sounded a lot like
                  > Glaswegian to me). I was lucky not to get a black eye :-(
                  >
                  > Shel
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > This is Albanach, a group devoted to the study and re-enactment of
                  > Scotland c. 503-1603 AD.
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ---
                  > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --
                  > No virus found in this incoming message.
                  > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
                  > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.0 - Release Date: 3/8/2005
                  >
                  >



                  --
                  No virus found in this outgoing message.
                  Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
                  Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.0 - Release Date: 3/8/2005

                  ---
                  [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
                • Kevin Myers
                  ... However there was a period of time beginning in about the 10th cent where there was a settlement of Gaelic speakers settled in Galloway. They were
                  Message 8 of 8 , Mar 9 9:08 PM
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                    --- "Sharon L. Krossa" <skrossa-ml@...> wrote:

                    > Doesn't work for those who want a Borders persona though, as even
                    > before they spoke Scots (or, earlier, Old English) in that region
                    > they spoke Cumbric (a language related to Welsh), not Gaelic.


                    However there was a period of time beginning in about the 10th cent
                    where there was a settlement of Gaelic speakers settled in Galloway.
                    They were Gall-Ghaidhealach or foreign Gaels--mostly Hiberno-Norse from
                    Dublin. By the 14th cent. western Galloway was firmly gaelic speaking
                    but the decline probably started shortly thereafter. And this layer
                    of language was laid on the earlier Cumbric layer. I don't know if you
                    want to extend the "Borders" region to include Galloway though. And it
                    (the gaelic speaking areas) probably didn't extend even as far east as
                    Annandale. Probably only as far as Dun Ragit?

                    Muddled Meandering Follows:

                    As far as identifying a Scot from a non-scot? I think language and who
                    you think of yourself as, is far more accurate a gauge before the
                    nationalistic movements of the, what, 18th cent?. A lot of my garb can
                    be construed as Norse, but I'm a Gael even though my neighbors are from
                    Trondheim, I mostly wear the leine and brat (which is plaid), the
                    neighbors don't yet but I hear they will in a few centuries;), and I
                    speak Gaidhlig (and so will they, eventually), well, granted modern S-G
                    for me, Old Irish for Cainnech.
                    Borders area is tough yet easy in the 16th century because there is by
                    far more written about it than, say, 9th century Earra-Ghaidheal. It is
                    tough because you can't necessarily put a label on it and call it
                    'Scots'. Also remember that "Scotland" is at least in origin 5
                    different cultural groups: Picts, Gaels, Cwmry, Norse and Anglic. You
                    can add to that the Flemish and other miscellaneous Continental
                    influences that came in with the establishment of the Royal Burroughs
                    starting in the 13th cent. The Borders have been in the Anglic culture
                    orbit since the 6th century at least with only occasional periods of
                    official rule by the Scottish Crown. I'd say look at what the English
                    are wearing in the same period, if you can find pictures of Border
                    family/clan chiefs-go with that. I've read in one book, the veracity of
                    which I'm uncertain, that the plaid (not belted mind you) was worn as
                    an overgarment in the lowlands in the mid 16th cent. (the book is "A
                    Short History of Scottish Dress" by R.M.D. Grange--whose conclusions do
                    not match the gospel of McClintock and Telfer-Dunbar). Also according
                    to this the Calvinists complained that the women were wearing the
                    plaids over their heads in kirk--and sleeping! Knox apparently didn't
                    like that too much.

                    I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiment, Sharon, (and a lot of the
                    rest of what you've posted and your website!) about being identified by
                    the language you speak--that's the core of any culture.

                    Suas leis a'Ghaidhlig!

                    -Cainnech R´┐Żad mcGuairi

                    > >And another way to identify a Scottish persona (highland persona
                    > >anyway)--learn
                    > >to speak Gaelic and respond in that lovely language rather than
                    > English :-))
                    >

                    >
                    > Now, one could learn to speak Scots...

                    och, if only.



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