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Re: Grainne's father & grandfather - have to correct myself

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  • Julie Stackable, SCA Margaret Hepburn
    Gahhhhhhhh, Dear Grainne, That s what I get for thinking I knew what I was talking about. AFTER posting what I posted I got online & checked some of the recent
    Message 1 of 22 , Aug 23, 2004
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      Gahhhhhhhh,
      Dear Grainne,
      That's what I get for thinking I knew what I was talking about.
      AFTER posting what I posted I got online & checked some of the
      recent SCA precedents regarding Irish names and discovered the
      following things:
      I rendered your name incorrectly - ingen is the earlier period
      spelling and 'O' or 'ui' refers to an ancestor i.e clan name and
      should instead be mac , which earlier can be meic or mec or mhic,
      therefore what I gave you should more properly be rendered as:
      Grainne ingen Aengusa mec Fergusa.
      BUT, as I was reading the precedents for Irish names, I came across
      a reference that said Grainne cannot be documented before the 14th
      century.
      The St. Gabriel archives appear to be down tonight, so I couldn't
      check any references for Grainne that are dated. I will try again in
      the morning & see if I can give you good date references for the
      name Grainne - regrettably the only book of Irish names I have to
      hand is O'Corrain & Maguire's, which naturally does not give dates
      for most of the names....

      So, you can always choose to ignore everything I've said here & see
      if you can find someone in your kingdom that can 'parse' Irish
      names....(might be the best course of action, grin). But do check
      the links I gave you in the other post, you might find some things
      you like....

      If I find better info for Grainne I will post it. This thread might
      get kicked off the list though since it's not technically a
      discussion of anything Scottish - but, if the moderator is at
      Pennsic, maybe we can run amok for a couple of days.

      Toujours a vos ordres,
      Margaret Hepburn
    • Matthew A. C. Newsome
      Nope, I m not at Pennsic, but I m not about to jump down anyone s throat for discussing Irish naming practices, either. ;-) Certainly on topic enough for my
      Message 2 of 22 , Aug 23, 2004
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        Nope, I'm not at Pennsic, but I'm not about to jump down anyone's throat
        for discussing Irish naming practices, either. ;-) Certainly on topic
        enough for my book!
        Aye,
        Eogan

        Get the new book, Early Highland Dress!
        Available now at <http://albanach.org> http://albanach.org

        If I find better info for Grainne I will post it. This thread might
        get kicked off the list though since it's not technically a
        discussion of anything Scottish - but, if the moderator is at
        Pennsic, maybe we can run amok for a couple of days.

        Toujours a vos ordres,
        Margaret Hepburn





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Victoria
        Hi, I m new here. I just got back from my first Pennsic and I m so excited. Well, I need to work on a persona. My family was from Glasgow so I think I ll
        Message 3 of 22 , Aug 24, 2004
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          Hi, I'm new here. I just got back from my first Pennsic and I'm so
          excited. Well, I need to work on a persona. My family was from
          Glasgow so I think I'll stick to that area. Any suggestions?

          Victoria
        • Julie Stackable, SCA Margaret Hepburn
          Dear Victoria, Welcome to the list! My persona, Margaret Hepburn, resides on a farm in the hills outside of Ardrossan, which is SW of Glasgow. So, a lot of the
          Message 4 of 22 , Aug 24, 2004
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            Dear Victoria,
            Welcome to the list! My persona, Margaret Hepburn, resides on a farm
            in the hills outside of Ardrossan, which is SW of Glasgow. So, a lot
            of the research I have done centers around that area & Ayrshire in
            general. Are you interested in a particular era? I am rather late,
            1570's, but would be happy to point you in many directions, as would
            many on the list...

            Glasgow was much smaller than Edinburgh throughout the SCA period
            and because the Clyde was not dredged enough for shipping was not
            really a port town of any moment until the 18th century. This part
            of Scotland was inhabited by various tribes early on and you will
            see mention of Strathclyde 'Celts' and the tribe of the Damnonii.
            There are many archeological sites - beginning mostly with neolithic
            down through Late Bronze Age burials. There were six inhabited sites
            in this area that the Romans wrote of (either settlements or forts
            or both). Romans garrisoned the area around 80 C.E., so depending on
            how early you want your persona to be, you can start at
            Roman 'squatter' (grins), they did intermarry with the tribes....
            Romans troops abandoned the Antonine Wall in this area in 163 C.E.
            What follows is a sort of mini Dark Ages for this area - it was
            still settled, there were still tribes & settlements & forts, but it
            was a rough outpost, having been abandoned by official Romans.
            Glasgow (which means 'green hollow' or glas cau as recorded in land
            given by the then King of Stratchclyde, Rydderch Hael, to form the
            original monastery honoring St. Kentigern - this is the beginning of
            this area being known as Glasgow, 6/7th century) does get a
            bishopric of sorts in the 6th/7th century (see land donation just
            before by Strathclyde king), so it was largely Christian by then.
            True record keeping begins again with the medieval see of Glasgow
            between 1124 and 1153. A cathedral gets built... So, between the
            12th century and the 16th century, you get a cathedral, a
            university, a modest monastic community (Blackfriars and Greyfriars)-
            a bishop builds a castle in the 13th century, etc. etc. Very few
            medieval to later period buildings remain in Glasgow, unfortunately
            due to late Georgians, Victorians & Edwardians who viciously "tidied
            up" putting in LOTS of row housing etc.

            Anyway, much more & I'll bore you to death. Just giving you a
            general idea of what you can choose from persona-wise. Name wise &
            family wise in this area there are Cunninghams, Montgomeries,
            Maxwells, Hamiltons, Eglintons, Stewarts, Knoxes (Knoxen?),
            Kilpatricks, Stirlings, Douglases & Lockharts (and many others,
            these are some prominent families). Many of these families will
            start as Norman 'carpetbaggers' in the late 11th early 12th century
            sent to 'civilise' the northern frontier, but some of the families
            will have earlier native ties. Just as in Edinburgh, wealthy
            families from here will also be sending their sons to France & other
            countries on the continent, so there will be ties to & imports from
            there.

            Hope that helps - again, welcome to the list & good luck
            constructing a persona....

            Toujours a vos ordres,
            Margaret Hepburn (who gets here by marrying a Montgumery...)

            --- In albanach@yahoogroups.com, Victoria <kaphagirl@e...> wrote:
            > Hi, I'm new here. I just got back from my first Pennsic and I'm so
            > excited. Well, I need to work on a persona. My family was from
            > Glasgow so I think I'll stick to that area. Any suggestions?
            >
            > Victoria
          • Robert Kirby
            In the past a couple of folks, Margaret Hepburn and Effrick as I recall, have mentioned researching Scottish wedding rites. My present interest is whether
            Message 5 of 22 , Mar 31, 2005
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              In the past a couple of folks, Margaret Hepburn and Effrick as I recall, have
              mentioned researching Scottish wedding rites. My present interest is whether
              anyone has references on how Britons, most especially Aberdonians, commemorated
              wedding anniversaries. I'm particularly interested in the 16c. Assuming that
              they observed them in any way, that is. Thanks in advance,
              Malcolm Drum
            • Julie Stackable, SCA Margaret Hepburn
              To be perfectly honest, I ve never seen anything on anniversaries, not even for other 16th century cultures either. I *think* this is a fairly modern concept,
              Message 6 of 22 , Mar 31, 2005
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                To be perfectly honest, I've never seen anything on anniversaries,
                not even for other 16th century cultures either. I *think* this is a
                fairly modern concept, like big to-do's over birthdays. The Diary of
                Margaret Hoby, who lived in Yorkshire in the 1590's has been
                published - she records fairly mundane details of her daily life &
                there is nothing in there about her wedding anniversaries or
                birthdays, for either her or her family or the servants.

                Saints days were still noted and if an anniversary or birthday
                coincided with that, it might be noticed, but I doubt celebrated
                like we do now.

                Queen Elizabeth I had her Ascension Day tilts - her mythology sort
                of melded with that of the Virgin Mary & it all got celebrated
                together. She gave gifts for Christenings & things like that, but
                I've not seen for birthdays or anniversaries.

                Not much help I know - lack of evidence doesn't really prove
                anything either way, just lack of evidence.

                cheers,
                Margaret
                --- In albanach@yahoogroups.com, Robert Kirby <lariandrobert@f...>
                wrote:
                > In the past a couple of folks, Margaret Hepburn and Effrick as I
                recall, have
                > mentioned researching Scottish wedding rites. My present interest
                is whether
                > anyone has references on how Britons, most especially Aberdonians,
                commemorated
                > wedding anniversaries. I'm particularly interested in the 16c.
                Assuming that
                > they observed them in any way, that is. Thanks in advance,
                > Malcolm Drum
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