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Re: [albanach] List is so quiet, what's everyone working?

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  • Andra Barrow
    ... Well, if anyone is bored, I could use some help coming up with a correct name. :) I m keeping Grainne but I need the proper form for a 5th Century Irish
    Message 1 of 22 , Aug 20, 2004
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      Julie Stackable, SCA Margaret Hepburn said:
      > Just wondering what everyone is up to, the list is so quiet.

      Well, if anyone is bored, I could use some help coming up with a correct
      name. :)

      I'm keeping "Grainne" but I need the proper form for a 5th Century Irish
      woman to indicate "Grainne, daughter of <name> who is the son of <name>".
      From what I've read so far, indications of clan affiliation were not
      commonplace in Irish names at that time. Input is definitely sought! :)

      Thanks!
      Grainne

      --
      "It is absurd to divide people into good and bad.
      People are either charming or tedious."
      -Oscar Wilde
    • Julie Stackable, SCA Margaret Hepburn
      Duh... didn t think about Pennsic - being down here in the armpit of New Mexico, Pennsic didn t even occur to me.... No wonder Sharon didn t comment on my name
      Message 2 of 22 , Aug 20, 2004
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        Duh... didn't think about Pennsic - being down here in the armpit of
        New Mexico, Pennsic didn't even occur to me.... No wonder Sharon
        didn't comment on my name post for Brenna (grins all 'round).
        Margaret
        --- In albanach@yahoogroups.com, "JL Fisher" <jlfisher@c...> wrote:
        > I'm here...but think most are at Pennsic :(
        > I'm looking forward to your site actually...sounds very
        interesting :)
      • Muirghein
        ... Me? Lots of stuff that would be very off-topic here, having nothing to do with Scotland or period. :-) YiS, Baintighearna Muirghein Dhaire Faoilciarach
        Message 3 of 22 , Aug 20, 2004
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          At 09:55 PM 8/19/04, you wrote:
          >I'll be happy to post a link when I get it up. So, what are you
          >working on right now....
          >(Trying to get something started here....where is everybody?)
          >Margaret

          Me? Lots of stuff that would be very off-topic here, having nothing to do
          with Scotland or period. :-)

          YiS,
          Baintighearna Muirghein Dhaire Faoilciarach /|\
          Dreiburgen Web Minister http://www.dreiburgen.org
          (any posts to e-mail lists do not reflect official
          opinions unless specifically stated otherwise)
        • JL Fisher
          LOL. I know...it seems like we ve ground to a halt up here with so many gone off to war :) I would definately guess that s why....:) ... From: Julie
          Message 4 of 22 , Aug 20, 2004
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            LOL. I know...it seems like we've ground to a halt up here with so many
            gone off to war :)
            I would definately guess that's why....:)


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Julie Stackable, SCA Margaret Hepburn" <malvoisine@...>
            To: <albanach@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 11:40 AM
            Subject: [albanach] Re: List is so quiet, what's everyone working on?


            > Duh... didn't think about Pennsic - being down here in the armpit of
            > New Mexico, Pennsic didn't even occur to me.... No wonder Sharon
            > didn't comment on my name post for Brenna (grins all 'round).
            > Margaret
            > --- In albanach@yahoogroups.com, "JL Fisher" <jlfisher@c...> wrote:
            > > I'm here...but think most are at Pennsic :(
            > > I'm looking forward to your site actually...sounds very
            > interesting :)
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > This is Albanach, a group devoted to the study and re-enactment of
            > Scotland c. 503-1603 AD.
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ---
            > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
            >
            >
            ---
            [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
          • JL Fisher
            Has anyone read The Celtic Realms , I think the authors are Chadwick/Dillon? Joy ... [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
            Message 5 of 22 , Aug 20, 2004
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              Has anyone read The Celtic Realms , I think the authors are Chadwick/Dillon?

              Joy
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "Julie Stackable, SCA Margaret Hepburn" <malvoisine@...>
              > To: <albanach@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 11:40 AM
              > Subject: [albanach] Re: List is so quiet, what's everyone working on?
              >
              >
              > > Duh... didn't think about Pennsic - being down here in the armpit of
              > > New Mexico, Pennsic didn't even occur to me.... No wonder Sharon
              > > didn't comment on my name post for Brenna (grins all 'round).
              > > Margaret
              > > --- In albanach@yahoogroups.com, "JL Fisher" <jlfisher@c...> wrote:
              > > > I'm here...but think most are at Pennsic :(
              > > > I'm looking forward to your site actually...sounds very
              > > interesting :)
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > This is Albanach, a group devoted to the study and re-enactment of
              > > Scotland c. 503-1603 AD.
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ---
              > > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
              > >
              > >
              > ---
              > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > This is Albanach, a group devoted to the study and re-enactment of
              > Scotland c. 503-1603 AD.
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ---
              > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
              >
              >

              ---
              [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
            • Diana Cosby
              JL Fisher wrote: Has anyone read The Celtic Realms , I think the authors are Chadwick/Dillon? ~Joy, I haven t, but I d love to hear feedback from anyone who
              Message 6 of 22 , Aug 20, 2004
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                JL Fisher wrote: Has anyone read The Celtic Realms , I think the authors
                are Chadwick/Dillon?

                ~Joy, I haven't, but I'd love to hear feedback from anyone who has.
                Diana Cosby

                --
                AGC(AW) USN Retired
                wulfe6@...
                http://members.cox.net/wulfe6/
                "Nothing is achieved without enthusiasm.” – Ralph Waldo Emerson.
              • Diana Cosby
                Julie Stackable, SCA Margaret Hepburn wrote: I was wondering if I could start a new thread - what Scottish flavored projects are you guys working on? ~I m
                Message 7 of 22 , Aug 20, 2004
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                  Julie Stackable, SCA Margaret Hepburn wrote: I was wondering if I could
                  start a new thread - what Scottish flavored projects are you guys
                  working on?

                  ~I'm currently working on finishing the rough draft of a romantic
                  suspense novel set in Scotland 1305.

                  > I am putting together a website (yes, groan, another website). I'm
                  > trying to do sort of Lowlands Scottish version of the 'Compendium of
                  > Common Knowledge' that is on the internet. Mostly I'm just extracting
                  > & regurgitating a lot of the research I've done over the past two
                  > years for my persona, plus it's given me a chance to rape &
                  > pillage interlibrary loan. I will be concentrating on the Lowlands (I
                  > have a loose time line of 1500-1600

                  ~I love the lowlands, especially info on the reivers. Are you adding,
                  "The Steel Bonnets," to your list?
                  http://www.complete-review.com/reviews/frasergm/sbonnets.htm
                  -Another border url I have is:
                  http://www.reivers.com/
                  *I'll be listening for updates on your project. Very interesting.
                  Diana Cosby

                  --
                  AGC(AW) USN Retired
                  wulfe6@...
                  http://members.cox.net/wulfe6/
                  "Nothing is achieved without enthusiasm.” – Ralph Waldo Emerson.
                • JL Fisher
                  What great sites :) Thank you! ... From: Diana Cosby To: Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 7:26 PM Subject: Re:
                  Message 8 of 22 , Aug 20, 2004
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                    What great sites :) Thank you!

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Diana Cosby" <wulfe6@...>
                    To: <albanach@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 7:26 PM
                    Subject: Re: [albanach] List is so quiet, what's everyone working?



                    > ~I love the lowlands, especially info on the reivers. Are you adding,
                    > "The Steel Bonnets," to your list?
                    > http://www.complete-review.com/reviews/frasergm/sbonnets.htm
                    > -Another border url I have is:
                    > http://www.reivers.com/
                    > *I'll be listening for updates on your project. Very interesting.
                    > Diana Cosby
                    >
                    > --
                    > AGC(AW) USN Retired
                    > wulfe6@...
                    > http://members.cox.net/wulfe6/
                    > "Nothing is achieved without enthusiasm.” – Ralph Waldo Emerson.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > This is Albanach, a group devoted to the study and re-enactment of
                    > Scotland c. 503-1603 AD.
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ---
                    > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
                    >
                    >

                    ---
                    [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
                  • Sharon L. Krossa
                    ... No Pennsic here -- I m unemployed in California! I m just working on my reply still... Sharon, ska Affrick -- Sharon L. Krossa,
                    Message 9 of 22 , Aug 20, 2004
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                      At 3:40 PM +0000 8/20/04, Julie Stackable, SCA Margaret Hepburn wrote:
                      >Duh... didn't think about Pennsic - being down here in the armpit of
                      >New Mexico, Pennsic didn't even occur to me.... No wonder Sharon
                      >didn't comment on my name post for Brenna (grins all 'round).

                      No Pennsic here -- I'm unemployed in California! I'm just working on
                      my reply still...

                      Sharon, ska Affrick
                      --
                      Sharon L. Krossa, skrossa-ml@...
                    • Julie Stackable, SCA Margaret Hepburn
                      Dear Grainne, That actually wouldn t be too hard to create, who do you want to be the daughter & granddaughter of (the specific names? I can see what the
                      Message 10 of 22 , Aug 22, 2004
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                        Dear Grainne,
                        That actually wouldn't be too hard to create, who do you want to be
                        the daughter & granddaughter of (the specific names? I can see what
                        the earliest forms of them are...)? I'll look & see if I can find
                        any citations for multiple family listings for women, usually it's
                        only for men, at least what got written down. I'm not that familiar
                        with early period, but I can certainly look....
                        Margaret Hepburn
                        --- In albanach@yahoogroups.com, "Andra Barrow" <grainne@p...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Julie Stackable, SCA Margaret Hepburn said:
                        > > Just wondering what everyone is up to, the list is so quiet.
                        >
                        > Well, if anyone is bored, I could use some help coming up with a
                        correct
                        > name. :)
                        >
                        > I'm keeping "Grainne" but I need the proper form for a 5th Century
                        Irish
                        > woman to indicate "Grainne, daughter of <name> who is the son of
                        <name>".
                        > From what I've read so far, indications of clan affiliation were
                        not
                        > commonplace in Irish names at that time. Input is definitely
                        sought! :)
                        >
                        > Thanks!
                        > Grainne
                        >
                        > --
                        > "It is absurd to divide people into good and bad.
                        > People are either charming or tedious."
                        > -Oscar Wilde
                      • Julie Stackable, SCA Margaret Hepburn
                        Dear Grainne, I did a quick search. I don t know if you have already picked your father & grandfather s name, so I picked two of the most commonly listed
                        Message 11 of 22 , Aug 22, 2004
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                          Dear Grainne,
                          I did a quick search. I don't know if you have already picked your
                          father & grandfather's name, so I picked two of the most commonly
                          listed Irish male names at
                          http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/irish100.html
                          which are Aengus & Fergus. Now, I am not a hot shot at changing the
                          spelling of names to possessives or in aid of pronunciation, so what
                          I am giving you is a very rough guide. Checking the Irish naming
                          practices articles found from the SCA.org 's heraldry website at
                          http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names.html and the Academy of
                          St. Gabriel's website at http://www.s-gabriel.org/ would most
                          likely be the best way to go for you, but I'll give this a shot.

                          So, if your father is Aengus, son of Fergus, that should be rendered
                          Aengus O Fergusa, then to render your relationship to your father,
                          it would be Grainne ingen Aengusa O Fergusa and to render them into
                          earlier period Irish would be
                          Grainne inghean Aengusa ui Fergusa __I think___. Aengus & Fergus
                          are rendered into a possessive form (Fergus possesses Aengus - I.e.
                          Fergus' son and Aengus possesses Grainne, I.e. Aengus' daughter), so
                          whatever names you pick will need to be rendered into their
                          possessive forms - there are charts for that on the Irish names
                          websites you can link to from above. Also, words possessing feminine
                          nouns (as Aengus will also possess inghean) will need to be lenited,
                          which can change the pronunciation and sometimes the spelling.
                          Sharon/Effrick's article for this is at
                          http://medievalscotland.org/scotnames/lenitionstepbystep.shtml - I
                          can't even begin to explain how THAT works.

                          Lastly, there is a famous Grainne in Irish mythology who is the
                          daughter of Cormac mac Airt - so, please don't pick Cormac for your
                          father & Art for your grandfather or your name will get returned for
                          over-identification with a known story (i.e. like trying to pass
                          Arthur mac Gorlois - not necessarily a real person, but too well
                          known).

                          If you know the father & grandfather you want, email me off list & I
                          can try & give you both the period spellings of them & the
                          possessive forms.

                          So, don't know how much that helps & as always, someone who knows
                          more about Gaelic modifiers than I (which is just about everybody),
                          please weigh in. Since a great deal of the list seems to be at
                          Pennsic, I thought I would try & help anyway. Once you get a set of
                          names you want, there is probably someone in your local area who can
                          also help you render your names with the proper possessives for you -
                          if your local herald can't suggest someone, your Kingdom Herald
                          should be able to & is almost always willing to help with putting
                          you on the right track.
                          Toujours a vos orders,
                          Margaret Hepburn
                          P.S. I wasn't bored, but I am the new herald for our local shire &
                          the more I learn about various naming practices, the better advice I
                          can give to submitters here....
                          --- In albanach@yahoogroups.com, "Andra Barrow" <grainne@p...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Well, if anyone is bored, I could use some help coming up with a
                          correct
                          > name. :)
                          >
                          > I'm keeping "Grainne" but I need the proper form for a 5th Century
                          Irish
                          > woman to indicate "Grainne, daughter of <name> who is the son of
                          <name>".
                          > From what I've read so far, indications of clan affiliation were
                          not
                          > commonplace in Irish names at that time. Input is definitely
                          sought! :)
                          >
                          > Thanks!
                          > Grainne
                        • Julie Stackable, SCA Margaret Hepburn
                          Gahhhhhhhh, Dear Grainne, That s what I get for thinking I knew what I was talking about. AFTER posting what I posted I got online & checked some of the recent
                          Message 12 of 22 , Aug 23, 2004
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                            Gahhhhhhhh,
                            Dear Grainne,
                            That's what I get for thinking I knew what I was talking about.
                            AFTER posting what I posted I got online & checked some of the
                            recent SCA precedents regarding Irish names and discovered the
                            following things:
                            I rendered your name incorrectly - ingen is the earlier period
                            spelling and 'O' or 'ui' refers to an ancestor i.e clan name and
                            should instead be mac , which earlier can be meic or mec or mhic,
                            therefore what I gave you should more properly be rendered as:
                            Grainne ingen Aengusa mec Fergusa.
                            BUT, as I was reading the precedents for Irish names, I came across
                            a reference that said Grainne cannot be documented before the 14th
                            century.
                            The St. Gabriel archives appear to be down tonight, so I couldn't
                            check any references for Grainne that are dated. I will try again in
                            the morning & see if I can give you good date references for the
                            name Grainne - regrettably the only book of Irish names I have to
                            hand is O'Corrain & Maguire's, which naturally does not give dates
                            for most of the names....

                            So, you can always choose to ignore everything I've said here & see
                            if you can find someone in your kingdom that can 'parse' Irish
                            names....(might be the best course of action, grin). But do check
                            the links I gave you in the other post, you might find some things
                            you like....

                            If I find better info for Grainne I will post it. This thread might
                            get kicked off the list though since it's not technically a
                            discussion of anything Scottish - but, if the moderator is at
                            Pennsic, maybe we can run amok for a couple of days.

                            Toujours a vos ordres,
                            Margaret Hepburn
                          • Matthew A. C. Newsome
                            Nope, I m not at Pennsic, but I m not about to jump down anyone s throat for discussing Irish naming practices, either. ;-) Certainly on topic enough for my
                            Message 13 of 22 , Aug 23, 2004
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                              Nope, I'm not at Pennsic, but I'm not about to jump down anyone's throat
                              for discussing Irish naming practices, either. ;-) Certainly on topic
                              enough for my book!
                              Aye,
                              Eogan

                              Get the new book, Early Highland Dress!
                              Available now at <http://albanach.org> http://albanach.org

                              If I find better info for Grainne I will post it. This thread might
                              get kicked off the list though since it's not technically a
                              discussion of anything Scottish - but, if the moderator is at
                              Pennsic, maybe we can run amok for a couple of days.

                              Toujours a vos ordres,
                              Margaret Hepburn





                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Victoria
                              Hi, I m new here. I just got back from my first Pennsic and I m so excited. Well, I need to work on a persona. My family was from Glasgow so I think I ll
                              Message 14 of 22 , Aug 24, 2004
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                                Hi, I'm new here. I just got back from my first Pennsic and I'm so
                                excited. Well, I need to work on a persona. My family was from
                                Glasgow so I think I'll stick to that area. Any suggestions?

                                Victoria
                              • Julie Stackable, SCA Margaret Hepburn
                                Dear Victoria, Welcome to the list! My persona, Margaret Hepburn, resides on a farm in the hills outside of Ardrossan, which is SW of Glasgow. So, a lot of the
                                Message 15 of 22 , Aug 24, 2004
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                                  Dear Victoria,
                                  Welcome to the list! My persona, Margaret Hepburn, resides on a farm
                                  in the hills outside of Ardrossan, which is SW of Glasgow. So, a lot
                                  of the research I have done centers around that area & Ayrshire in
                                  general. Are you interested in a particular era? I am rather late,
                                  1570's, but would be happy to point you in many directions, as would
                                  many on the list...

                                  Glasgow was much smaller than Edinburgh throughout the SCA period
                                  and because the Clyde was not dredged enough for shipping was not
                                  really a port town of any moment until the 18th century. This part
                                  of Scotland was inhabited by various tribes early on and you will
                                  see mention of Strathclyde 'Celts' and the tribe of the Damnonii.
                                  There are many archeological sites - beginning mostly with neolithic
                                  down through Late Bronze Age burials. There were six inhabited sites
                                  in this area that the Romans wrote of (either settlements or forts
                                  or both). Romans garrisoned the area around 80 C.E., so depending on
                                  how early you want your persona to be, you can start at
                                  Roman 'squatter' (grins), they did intermarry with the tribes....
                                  Romans troops abandoned the Antonine Wall in this area in 163 C.E.
                                  What follows is a sort of mini Dark Ages for this area - it was
                                  still settled, there were still tribes & settlements & forts, but it
                                  was a rough outpost, having been abandoned by official Romans.
                                  Glasgow (which means 'green hollow' or glas cau as recorded in land
                                  given by the then King of Stratchclyde, Rydderch Hael, to form the
                                  original monastery honoring St. Kentigern - this is the beginning of
                                  this area being known as Glasgow, 6/7th century) does get a
                                  bishopric of sorts in the 6th/7th century (see land donation just
                                  before by Strathclyde king), so it was largely Christian by then.
                                  True record keeping begins again with the medieval see of Glasgow
                                  between 1124 and 1153. A cathedral gets built... So, between the
                                  12th century and the 16th century, you get a cathedral, a
                                  university, a modest monastic community (Blackfriars and Greyfriars)-
                                  a bishop builds a castle in the 13th century, etc. etc. Very few
                                  medieval to later period buildings remain in Glasgow, unfortunately
                                  due to late Georgians, Victorians & Edwardians who viciously "tidied
                                  up" putting in LOTS of row housing etc.

                                  Anyway, much more & I'll bore you to death. Just giving you a
                                  general idea of what you can choose from persona-wise. Name wise &
                                  family wise in this area there are Cunninghams, Montgomeries,
                                  Maxwells, Hamiltons, Eglintons, Stewarts, Knoxes (Knoxen?),
                                  Kilpatricks, Stirlings, Douglases & Lockharts (and many others,
                                  these are some prominent families). Many of these families will
                                  start as Norman 'carpetbaggers' in the late 11th early 12th century
                                  sent to 'civilise' the northern frontier, but some of the families
                                  will have earlier native ties. Just as in Edinburgh, wealthy
                                  families from here will also be sending their sons to France & other
                                  countries on the continent, so there will be ties to & imports from
                                  there.

                                  Hope that helps - again, welcome to the list & good luck
                                  constructing a persona....

                                  Toujours a vos ordres,
                                  Margaret Hepburn (who gets here by marrying a Montgumery...)

                                  --- In albanach@yahoogroups.com, Victoria <kaphagirl@e...> wrote:
                                  > Hi, I'm new here. I just got back from my first Pennsic and I'm so
                                  > excited. Well, I need to work on a persona. My family was from
                                  > Glasgow so I think I'll stick to that area. Any suggestions?
                                  >
                                  > Victoria
                                • Robert Kirby
                                  In the past a couple of folks, Margaret Hepburn and Effrick as I recall, have mentioned researching Scottish wedding rites. My present interest is whether
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Mar 31, 2005
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                                    In the past a couple of folks, Margaret Hepburn and Effrick as I recall, have
                                    mentioned researching Scottish wedding rites. My present interest is whether
                                    anyone has references on how Britons, most especially Aberdonians, commemorated
                                    wedding anniversaries. I'm particularly interested in the 16c. Assuming that
                                    they observed them in any way, that is. Thanks in advance,
                                    Malcolm Drum
                                  • Julie Stackable, SCA Margaret Hepburn
                                    To be perfectly honest, I ve never seen anything on anniversaries, not even for other 16th century cultures either. I *think* this is a fairly modern concept,
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Mar 31, 2005
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                                      To be perfectly honest, I've never seen anything on anniversaries,
                                      not even for other 16th century cultures either. I *think* this is a
                                      fairly modern concept, like big to-do's over birthdays. The Diary of
                                      Margaret Hoby, who lived in Yorkshire in the 1590's has been
                                      published - she records fairly mundane details of her daily life &
                                      there is nothing in there about her wedding anniversaries or
                                      birthdays, for either her or her family or the servants.

                                      Saints days were still noted and if an anniversary or birthday
                                      coincided with that, it might be noticed, but I doubt celebrated
                                      like we do now.

                                      Queen Elizabeth I had her Ascension Day tilts - her mythology sort
                                      of melded with that of the Virgin Mary & it all got celebrated
                                      together. She gave gifts for Christenings & things like that, but
                                      I've not seen for birthdays or anniversaries.

                                      Not much help I know - lack of evidence doesn't really prove
                                      anything either way, just lack of evidence.

                                      cheers,
                                      Margaret
                                      --- In albanach@yahoogroups.com, Robert Kirby <lariandrobert@f...>
                                      wrote:
                                      > In the past a couple of folks, Margaret Hepburn and Effrick as I
                                      recall, have
                                      > mentioned researching Scottish wedding rites. My present interest
                                      is whether
                                      > anyone has references on how Britons, most especially Aberdonians,
                                      commemorated
                                      > wedding anniversaries. I'm particularly interested in the 16c.
                                      Assuming that
                                      > they observed them in any way, that is. Thanks in advance,
                                      > Malcolm Drum
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