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Under the kilt (or whatever)

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  • Muirghein
    There s a rather silly discussion going on on another list having to deal with what Scotsmen wear (or don t) under the kilt (or other garb). It s gotten me
    Message 1 of 7 , Mar 3, 2004
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      There's a rather silly discussion going on on another list having to deal
      with what Scotsmen wear (or don't) under the kilt (or other garb). It's
      gotten me wondering enough to come over here and ask :-).

      1) If "smallclothes" are traditionally not worn under the kilt, was any
      sort of undergarment worn under other clothing? My thought was that rough
      wool against delicate bits probably prompted the use of something like
      linen underthings under trews and such, but I'm guessing.

      2) Someone mentioned hearing that, in period, the shirttails were brought
      down between the legs and fastened, so that even if the kilt were lifted
      nothing would show. I imagine it also helped with more practical issues
      like chafing ;-). Any truth to this? I know guys now often wear the
      shirt/leine long enough to cover the naughty bits if they take off the
      kilt, but I don't know of any who fasten it, and I _know_ better than to
      take SCA experience and extrapolate it to period practice.

      Any other commentary on undergarments within the purview of this list (i.e.
      period Scotland) is welcome, with a particular interest in the early 14th
      c. Highlands.

      Thanks!

      YiS,
      Baintighearna Muirghein Dhaire Faoilciarach /|\
      Dreiburgen Web Minister http://www.dreiburgen.org
      (any posts to e-mail lists do not reflect official
      opinions unless specifically stated otherwise)
    • Matthew A. C. Newsome
      We are hindered, my dear, by the fact that Highlanders never had their portraits painted in their underwear. :-) But, since we do know that the leine was worn
      Message 2 of 7 , Mar 3, 2004
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        We are hindered, my dear, by the fact that Highlanders never had their
        portraits painted in their underwear. :-)

        But, since we do know that the leine was worn as a full-length garment,
        or at least knee length by the men, then it stands to reason that when
        the kilt began to be more common as we close the sixteenth century and
        enter the seventeenth, that the shirts worn with the kilt would have
        likewise been long.

        However, one also notes that as the kilt came into fashion, the Gaelic
        style of leine fell out of fashion and was replaced by the more English
        style shirt, so there is room here to argue either side.
        Aye,
        Eogan

        Get the new book, Early Highland Dress!
        Available now at <http://albanach.org> http://albanach.org
        -----Original Message-----
        From: Muirghein [mailto:wolfestead@...]
        Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 7:11 PM
        To: albanach@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [albanach] Under the kilt (or whatever)

        There's a rather silly discussion going on on another list having to
        deal
        with what Scotsmen wear (or don't) under the kilt (or other garb). It's
        gotten me wondering enough to come over here and ask :-).

        1) If "smallclothes" are traditionally not worn under the kilt, was any
        sort of undergarment worn under other clothing? My thought was that
        rough
        wool against delicate bits probably prompted the use of something like
        linen underthings under trews and such, but I'm guessing.

        2) Someone mentioned hearing that, in period, the shirttails were
        brought
        down between the legs and fastened, so that even if the kilt were lifted

        nothing would show. I imagine it also helped with more practical issues
        like chafing ;-). Any truth to this? I know guys now often wear the
        shirt/leine long enough to cover the naughty bits if they take off the
        kilt, but I don't know of any who fasten it, and I _know_ better than to

        take SCA experience and extrapolate it to period practice.

        Any other commentary on undergarments within the purview of this list
        (i.e.
        period Scotland) is welcome, with a particular interest in the early
        14th
        c. Highlands.

        Thanks!

        YiS,
        Baintighearna Muirghein Dhaire Faoilciarach /|\
        Dreiburgen Web Minister http://www.dreiburgen.org
        (any posts to e-mail lists do not reflect official
        opinions unless specifically stated otherwise)



        This is Albanach, a group devoted to the study and re-enactment of
        Scotland c. 503-1603 AD. Post messages to albanach@egroups.com. Alter
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      • Muirghein
        ... True enough :-). But the occasional written account mentions mundane things, like a modern writer might mention unzipping a fly to use a urinal, so I
        Message 3 of 7 , Mar 3, 2004
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          At 04:20 PM 3/3/04, Eogan wrote:
          >We are hindered, my dear, by the fact that Highlanders never had their
          >portraits painted in their underwear. :-)

          True enough :-). But the occasional written account mentions mundane
          things, like a modern writer might mention unzipping a fly to use a urinal,
          so I thought there might be at least some anecdotal evidence.

          Thanks, though,
          Baintighearna Muirghein Dhaire Faoilciarach /|\
          Dreiburgen Web Minister http://www.dreiburgen.org
          (any posts to e-mail lists do not reflect official
          opinions unless specifically stated otherwise)
        • COLLIN KING
          ... Well coming from someone who has Tartan on more time then naught these days.(but not as much as Matt does..Cranky I have spoken with anyone that has seen
          Message 4 of 7 , Mar 3, 2004
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            ----- Original Message ----- >
            > 1) If "smallclothes" are traditionally not worn under the kilt, was any
            > sort of undergarment worn under other clothing? My thought was that rough
            > wool against delicate bits probably prompted the use of something like
            > linen underthings under trews and such, but I'm guessing.


            Well coming from someone who has Tartan on more time then naught these
            days.(but not as much as Matt does..Cranky I have spoken with anyone that
            has seen the Man in pants.....dont take that the wrong way....) I can tell
            you the wool after breaking it in isnt as corse as you may think.But
            >
            > 2) Someone mentioned hearing that, in period, the shirttails were brought
            > down between the legs and fastened, so that even if the kilt were lifted
            > nothing would show. I imagine it also helped with more practical issues
            > like chafing ;-). Any truth to this? I know guys now often wear the
            > shirt/leine long enough to cover the naughty bits if they take off the
            > kilt, but I don't know of any who fasten it, and I _know_ better than to
            > take SCA experience and extrapolate it to period practice.


            Well i know in latter periods when the Leine was replaced but shirts that
            were alittle more coman say in the rest of eroupe the Length stayed basicly
            the same as Leine's were not out of any sort of attention to shirt like
            tradtion...But that was just the style. Its Also worth noting that
            highlanders were more then likely Tieing up shirt tails (or in the 17th and
            18th cen some Men had shists with buttons and loops) when they were home and
            not wraped in their Brecan Felies.I my self have stempted to take My shirt
            and tie it and it just makes it danm imposble to walk let alone do anything
            else.


            Collin >
            > Any other commentary on undergarments within the purview of this list
            (i.e.
            > period Scotland) is welcome, with a particular interest in the early 14th
            > c. Highlands.
            >
            > Thanks!
            >
            > YiS,
            > Baintighearna Muirghein Dhaire Faoilciarach /|\
            > Dreiburgen Web Minister http://www.dreiburgen.org
            > (any posts to e-mail lists do not reflect official
            > opinions unless specifically stated otherwise)
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > This is Albanach, a group devoted to the study and re-enactment of
            > Scotland c. 503-1603 AD. Post messages to albanach@egroups.com. Alter
            > your account or view the archives at www.egroups.com/list/albanach
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • ebrowder@widomaker.com
            Shirts of the 17th and 18th century, even among non-kilt wearers, came nerly to the knees. There is no need to fasten the tails together between the legs;
            Message 5 of 7 , Mar 4, 2004
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              Shirts of the 17th and 18th century, even among non-kilt wearers, came nerly to
              the knees. There is no need to fasten the tails together between the legs;
              they work just fine without doing this.

              Shel



              Quoting Muirghein <wolfestead@...>:

              >
              >
              >
              >
              > There's a rather silly discussion going on on another list having to deal
              >
              > with what Scotsmen wear (or don't) under the kilt (or other garb). It's
              >
              > gotten me wondering enough to come over here and ask :-).
              >
              >
              >
              > 1) If "smallclothes" are traditionally not worn under the kilt, was any
              >
              > sort of undergarment worn under other clothing? My thought was that rough
              >
              > wool against delicate bits probably prompted the use of something like
              >
              > linen underthings under trews and such, but I'm guessing.
              >
              >
              >
              > 2) Someone mentioned hearing that, in period, the shirttails were brought
              >
              > down between the legs and fastened, so that even if the kilt were lifted
              >
              > nothing would show. I imagine it also helped with more practical issues
              >
              > like chafing ;-). Any truth to this? I know guys now often wear the
              >
              > shirt/leine long enough to cover the naughty bits if they take off the
              >
              > kilt, but I don't know of any who fasten it, and I _know_ better than to
              >
              > take SCA experience and extrapolate it to period practice.
              >
              >
              >
              > Any other commentary on undergarments within the purview of this list (i.e.
              >
              > period Scotland) is welcome, with a particular interest in the early 14th
              >
              > c. Highlands.
              >
              >
              >
              > Thanks!
              >
              >
              >
              > YiS,
              >
              > Baintighearna Muirghein Dhaire Faoilciarach  /|\
              >
              > Dreiburgen Web Minister     http://www.dreiburgen.org
              >
              > (any posts to e-mail lists do not reflect official
              >
              >   opinions unless specifically stated otherwise)
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > This is Albanach, a group devoted to the study and re-enactment of
              >
              > Scotland c. 503-1603 AD.  Post messages to albanach@egroups.com.  Alter
              >
              > your account or view the archives at www.egroups.com/list/albanach
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
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            • Sharon L. Krossa
              ... Which English style shirts were also long. (The weird long of 16th century Gaelic style shirts was the sleeves, not the body. Everybody had long bodied
              Message 6 of 7 , Mar 4, 2004
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                At 7:20 PM -0500 3/3/04, Matthew A. C. Newsome wrote:
                >We are hindered, my dear, by the fact that Highlanders never had their
                >portraits painted in their underwear. :-)
                >
                >But, since we do know that the leine was worn as a full-length garment,
                >or at least knee length by the men, then it stands to reason that when
                >the kilt began to be more common as we close the sixteenth century and
                >enter the seventeenth, that the shirts worn with the kilt would have
                >likewise been long.
                >
                >However, one also notes that as the kilt came into fashion, the Gaelic
                >style of leine fell out of fashion and was replaced by the more English
                >style shirt, so there is room here to argue either side.

                Which "English" style shirts were also long. (The 'weird' long of
                16th century Gaelic style shirts was the sleeves, not the body.
                Everybody had long bodied shirts.)

                With regard to what they wore in terms of underwear, remember first
                that shirts were underwear, in Highlands, Lowlands, England, etc. And
                remember second that the whole "no underpants under a kilt" thing
                dates to post-period military uniforms (which is why it is called
                "going regimental"), not anything period and not anything civilian.
                Indeed, I wouldn't be surprised if it is only relatively recently,
                after kilts ceased to be standard wear for anyone but those in
                military uniform, that the idea that civilians in kilts weren't
                supposed to wear underwear came to be common. (That is, the tradition
                that no one, including civilians, should wear underwear under a kilt
                may be more recent than the tradition that no underwear should be
                worn under a kilt by those in military uniform.)

                But whether they wore anything like underpants in period is unclear.
                Possibly. Possibly not. We just don't have a lot of evidence to work
                from. And, of course, there is the "who" issue -- Highlanders (&
                Irish) in their unique clothing styles, or Lowlanders who dressed
                very similar to the English? And when? Something that may be true for
                the 12th century isn't necessarily true for the 16th...

                Effrick
                --
                Sharon L. Krossa, skrossa-ml@...
              • dblackthistle8@adelphia.net
                I can only add for whatever knowledge it helps that my father taught my brothers and ultimately my son and nephews what his father and grandfather had taught
                Message 7 of 7 , Mar 4, 2004
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                  I can only add for whatever knowledge it helps that my father taught my brothers and ultimately my son and nephews what his father and grandfather had taught him in wearing his kilt properly and that was to tie their shirtails....although as a mother I must admit when my son was young he wore his GIJoe underwear..........what he wears now as a grown young man I wouldn't know...so I would assume this was a common way to dress going back at least almost 200 years in our family history.....

                  Diane Thompson at Blackthistle Designs


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