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  • J&C Cameron
    Greeings, Im new to the list, i am also a SCA member putting together a scottish prosonia. I have been researching Highland dress. so thought i would post the
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 23, 2004
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      Greeings,

      Im new to the list, i am also a SCA member putting together a scottish prosonia. I have been researching Highland dress. so thought i would post the garments i am working on. to make sure i got it right.

      1.Geat kilt& pleid pin i have the pin, wool, i was thing plain maybe to colors as I am not a rich person but not poor either and i dont want it to busy. somthing simple.
      2. bonnet, knitted (blue)
      3. Leine, shirt with poffy sleeve, also under garment (looking for good pattern)
      4 Ionar (also looking for good pattern) and or leather jerkin
      5. shoe (Ghilllies) leather
      6 leather under belt
      7 outer belt and a hand width
      8. shocks, woolish to just below the knee
      9. sporran
      10 dagger have
      11. sword have

      Iwould this by a good Scottish Highland kit for lack of a better word? what do i need to add and or take away. kilt will be folded none of this sewn kilt stuff. I would like to have a kit that was the better than average attemt to total peroid. help and patterns would help me a great deal. i would post in scottish but dont know it yet.

      Blessings, Hawthorn


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Matthew A. C. Newsome
      Hi Hawthorn, Looks like you have a good start on an outfit. The big question to ask though, if you want to have a good period outfit, is what period are you
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 23, 2004
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        Hi Hawthorn,

        Looks like you have a good start on an outfit. The big question to ask
        though, if you want to have a good "period" outfit, is what period are
        you trying to recreate? Some of the items you mention, like the "great
        kilt" or belted plaid, are perfectly period for the late sixteenth
        century, but would be grossly out of period for, say the fourteenth
        century. Let us know what time period, and also what place in Scotland
        your persona is from, and I'm sure plenty of us will be willing to offer
        our advice.
        Aye,
        Eogan Og

        Get the new book, Early Highland Dress!
        Available now at <http://albanach.org> http://albanach.org
        -----Original Message-----
        From: J&C Cameron [mailto:cte71259@...]
        Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 6:38 PM
        To: albanach@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [albanach] new to the list

        Greeings,

        Im new to the list, i am also a SCA member putting together a scottish
        prosonia. I have been researching Highland dress. so thought i would
        post the garments i am working on. to make sure i got it right.

        1.Geat kilt& pleid pin i have the pin, wool, i was thing plain maybe to
        colors as I am not a rich person but not poor either and i dont want it
        to busy. somthing simple.
        2. bonnet, knitted (blue)
        3. Leine, shirt with poffy sleeve, also under garment (looking for good
        pattern)
        4 Ionar (also looking for good pattern) and or leather jerkin
        5. shoe (Ghilllies) leather
        6 leather under belt
        7 outer belt and a hand width
        8. shocks, woolish to just below the knee
        9. sporran
        10 dagger have
        11. sword have

        Iwould this by a good Scottish Highland kit for lack of a better word?
        what do i need to add and or take away. kilt will be folded none of this
        sewn kilt stuff. I would like to have a kit that was the better than
        average attemt to total peroid. help and patterns would help me a great
        deal. i would post in scottish but dont know it yet.

        Blessings, Hawthorn


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



        This is Albanach, a group devoted to the study and re-enactment of
        Scotland c. 503-1603 AD. Post messages to albanach@egroups.com. Alter
        your account or view the archives at www.egroups.com/list/albanach



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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • J&C Cameron
        Greetings, Sorry, sixthteen. there is i island out the cost call fife (SP) i beleave this is were i would be from. Hawtorn ... From: Matthew A. C. Newsome To:
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 23, 2004
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          Greetings,

          Sorry, sixthteen. there is i island out the cost call fife (SP) i beleave this is were i would be from.

          Hawtorn
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Matthew A. C. Newsome
          To: albanach@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 5:38 PM
          Subject: RE: [albanach] new to the list


          Hi Hawthorn,

          Looks like you have a good start on an outfit. The big question to ask
          though, if you want to have a good "period" outfit, is what period are
          you trying to recreate? Some of the items you mention, like the "great
          kilt" or belted plaid, are perfectly period for the late sixteenth
          century, but would be grossly out of period for, say the fourteenth
          century. Let us know what time period, and also what place in Scotland
          your persona is from, and I'm sure plenty of us will be willing to offer
          our advice.
          Aye,
          Eogan Og

          Get the new book, Early Highland Dress!
          Available now at <http://albanach.org> http://albanach.org
          -----Original Message-----
          From: J&C Cameron [mailto:cte71259@...]
          Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 6:38 PM
          To: albanach@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [albanach] new to the list

          Greeings,

          Im new to the list, i am also a SCA member putting together a scottish
          prosonia. I have been researching Highland dress. so thought i would
          post the garments i am working on. to make sure i got it right.

          1.Geat kilt& pleid pin i have the pin, wool, i was thing plain maybe to
          colors as I am not a rich person but not poor either and i dont want it
          to busy. somthing simple.
          2. bonnet, knitted (blue)
          3. Leine, shirt with poffy sleeve, also under garment (looking for good
          pattern)
          4 Ionar (also looking for good pattern) and or leather jerkin
          5. shoe (Ghilllies) leather
          6 leather under belt
          7 outer belt and a hand width
          8. shocks, woolish to just below the knee
          9. sporran
          10 dagger have
          11. sword have

          Iwould this by a good Scottish Highland kit for lack of a better word?
          what do i need to add and or take away. kilt will be folded none of this
          sewn kilt stuff. I would like to have a kit that was the better than
          average attemt to total peroid. help and patterns would help me a great
          deal. i would post in scottish but dont know it yet.

          Blessings, Hawthorn


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          This is Albanach, a group devoted to the study and re-enactment of
          Scotland c. 503-1603 AD. Post messages to albanach@egroups.com. Alter
          your account or view the archives at www.egroups.com/list/albanach



          _____

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          * To visit your group on the web, go to:
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/albanach/

          * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          albanach-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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          <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Service.


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          This is Albanach, a group devoted to the study and re-enactment of
          Scotland c. 503-1603 AD. Post messages to albanach@egroups.com. Alter
          your account or view the archives at www.egroups.com/list/albanach



          ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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          a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/albanach/

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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Matthew A. C. Newsome
          The one thing I would mention about the outfit you are putting together, as you describe it, is the wool socks to below the knee. Sounds like you are
          Message 4 of 9 , Feb 23, 2004
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            The one thing I would mention about the outfit you are putting together,
            as you describe it, is the wool socks to below the knee. Sounds like
            you are describing cadadh, or woolen hose that have been cut and sewn
            from woven cloth. I can't find any documentation that they (or any
            other type of sock or hose) were worn with the kilt any time prior to
            the seventeenth century. While we *do* have plenty of sixteenth century
            evidence that Scots went bare legged (though most of these references
            are not describing kilt outfits). Still, the best thing to do would be
            to go bare legged.

            Aye,
            Eogan


            Get the new book, Early Highland Dress!
            Available now at <http://albanach.org> http://albanach.org
            -----Original Message-----
            From: J&C Cameron [mailto:cte71259@...]
            Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 7:48 PM
            To: albanach@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [albanach] new to the list

            Greetings,

            Sorry, sixthteen. there is i island out the cost call fife (SP) i
            beleave this is were i would be from.

            Hawtorn



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • scotsfencer@aol.com
            Hawthorn, Sounds good, but I agree with Eogan. Its important to know when and where your persona is intended to be. These fine folks helped clear my head, as I
            Message 5 of 9 , Feb 23, 2004
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              Hawthorn,

              Sounds good, but I agree with Eogan. Its important to know when and where
              your persona is intended to be. These fine folks helped clear my head, as I had
              thought the kilt was all of Scotland.... but it wasnt in the lowlands... and I
              have a lowland persona. Also just as some help... youre looking for a leine
              pattern. I have found a great one, that some may not find. I found it in the
              "women's" clothing. its has four patterns and two of them are leine-ish (it has
              the long sleeves with a large open wrist and string's running down the length
              of the sleeve that you tug up to make the length... if this is not accurate
              for a leine, could the rest of the list let me know).... also you said puffy
              sleeves.... are you looking for puffy sleeves with a tight wrist cuff.... or with
              the large wrist cuffs.

              Vivat,

              Gavine Armestrang
              Hospitaller
              Barony of Darkwater
              Kingdom of Trimaris


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Matthew A. C. Newsome
              Gavine, Sounds as if the leine pattern you describe suffers from the same flaw that many popular reconstructions do. That is, from your description it sounds
              Message 6 of 9 , Feb 24, 2004
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                Gavine,

                Sounds as if the leine pattern you describe suffers from the same flaw
                that many popular reconstructions do. That is, from your description it
                sounds as if the sleeves are pulled or gathered along a drawstring that
                runs the length of the sleeve. There is no evidence that this was ever
                done in period. You can read about that here:
                http://reconstructinghistory.com/irish/drawstrings.html

                Aye,
                Eogan

                Get the new book, Early Highland Dress!
                Available now at <http://albanach.org> http://albanach.org
                -----Original Message-----
                From: scotsfencer@... [mailto:scotsfencer@...]
                Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 11:00 PM
                To: albanach@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [albanach] new to the list

                Hawthorn,

                Sounds good, but I agree with Eogan. Its important to know when and
                where
                your persona is intended to be. These fine folks helped clear my head,
                as I had
                thought the kilt was all of Scotland.... but it wasnt in the lowlands...
                and I
                have a lowland persona. Also just as some help... youre looking for a
                leine
                pattern. I have found a great one, that some may not find. I found it in
                the
                "women's" clothing. its has four patterns and two of them are leine-ish
                (it has
                the long sleeves with a large open wrist and string's running down the
                length
                of the sleeve that you tug up to make the length... if this is not
                accurate
                for a leine, could the rest of the list let me know).... also you said
                puffy
                sleeves.... are you looking for puffy sleeves with a tight wrist
                cuff.... or with
                the large wrist cuffs.

                Vivat,

                Gavine Armestrang
                Hospitaller
                Barony of Darkwater
                Kingdom of Trimaris


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                This is Albanach, a group devoted to the study and re-enactment of
                Scotland c. 503-1603 AD. Post messages to albanach@egroups.com. Alter
                your account or view the archives at www.egroups.com/list/albanach



                _____

                Yahoo! Groups Links
                * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/albanach/

                * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                albanach-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                <mailto:albanach-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

                * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Service.


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Brian McDaniel
                I was under the impression that kilts were not known until 17th or 18th century, making them non-period all together. I ve heard it a few times and read it
                Message 7 of 9 , Feb 25, 2004
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                  I was under the impression that kilts were not known until 17th or
                  18th century, making them non-period all together. I've heard it a
                  few times and read it several places online, but can't tell you the
                  details.

                  I'm actually going to start working on a highland scottish set of
                  garb from around the 9th-10th century from the area around Glencoe
                  (not a final decision, but close enough). I'm thinking more along
                  the lines of peasant garb. From what I've found it consists of

                  Knee length Leine or simple tunic
                  Brat
                  Belt
                  Trousers (mainly during cold weather)
                  Simple wrapped shoes - I've actually got a pair of moccasin boots
                  from Minnetonka with the frills cut off. They look decent, but I
                  doubt they're period for what I'm looking for. Does anyone make a
                  shoe that would fit the period?


                  --- In albanach@yahoogroups.com, "Matthew A. C. Newsome"
                  <eogan@a...> wrote:
                  > Gavine,
                  >
                  > Sounds as if the leine pattern you describe suffers from the same
                  flaw
                  > that many popular reconstructions do. That is, from your
                  description it
                  > sounds as if the sleeves are pulled or gathered along a drawstring
                  that
                  > runs the length of the sleeve. There is no evidence that this was
                  ever
                  > done in period. You can read about that here:
                  > http://reconstructinghistory.com/irish/drawstrings.html
                  >
                  > Aye,
                  > Eogan
                  >
                  > Get the new book, Early Highland Dress!
                  > Available now at <http://albanach.org> http://albanach.org
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: scotsfencer@a... [mailto:scotsfencer@a...]
                  > Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 11:00 PM
                  > To: albanach@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: [albanach] new to the list
                  >
                  > Hawthorn,
                  >
                  > Sounds good, but I agree with Eogan. Its important to know when and
                  > where
                  > your persona is intended to be. These fine folks helped clear my
                  head,
                  > as I had
                  > thought the kilt was all of Scotland.... but it wasnt in the
                  lowlands...
                  > and I
                  > have a lowland persona. Also just as some help... youre looking
                  for a
                  > leine
                  > pattern. I have found a great one, that some may not find. I found
                  it in
                  > the
                  > "women's" clothing. its has four patterns and two of them are
                  leine-ish
                  > (it has
                  > the long sleeves with a large open wrist and string's running
                  down the
                  > length
                  > of the sleeve that you tug up to make the length... if this is not
                  > accurate
                  > for a leine, could the rest of the list let me know).... also you
                  said
                  > puffy
                  > sleeves.... are you looking for puffy sleeves with a tight wrist
                  > cuff.... or with
                  > the large wrist cuffs.
                  >
                  > Vivat,
                  >
                  > Gavine Armestrang
                  > Hospitaller
                  > Barony of Darkwater
                  > Kingdom of Trimaris
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > This is Albanach, a group devoted to the study and re-enactment of
                  > Scotland c. 503-1603 AD. Post messages to albanach@egroups.com
                  Alter
                  > your account or view the archives at www.egroups.com/list/albanach
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > _____
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/albanach/
                  >
                  > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > albanach-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > <mailto:albanach-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                  >
                  > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
                  of
                  > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Service.
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Nancy Zupanic
                  ... Belted plaids, or great kilts, have been documented to 1594, making them very barely in period, but in period nonetheless. Your garb plans sound
                  Message 8 of 9 , Feb 25, 2004
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                    Brian wrote:
                    > I was under the impression that kilts were not known until 17th or
                    > 18th century, making them non-period all together. I've heard it a
                    > few times and read it several places online, but can't tell you the
                    > details.

                    Belted plaids, or great kilts, have been documented to 1594, making them
                    very barely in period, but in period nonetheless. Your garb plans sound
                    wonderful. And comfortable. To me, comfort is all-important.

                    Morel
                  • Matthew A. C. Newsome
                    Brian, You are partially correct, and a lot depends on how you define the word kilt. The feileadh-mhor, or belted plaid (aka great kilt ) can be positively
                    Message 9 of 9 , Feb 25, 2004
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Brian,

                      You are partially correct, and a lot depends on how you define the word
                      "kilt." The feileadh-mhor, or belted plaid (aka "great kilt") can be
                      positively dated back to 1594 AD from a description of Scottish
                      Hebridean soldiers in the Life of Red Hugh O'Donnell. The belted plaid
                      can be said to be the grandfather of our modern kilt, and this is the
                      only form that falls within SCA period (pre-1600). It was the dominant
                      form of male Highland dress throughout the seventeenth century. The
                      transition between feilieadh-mhor to feilieadh-beag ("little wrap,"
                      basically the lower half of the belted plaid) took place sometime
                      between the late seventeenth and the mid-eighteenth century, depending
                      on your interpretation of the available evidence. The feileadh-beag can
                      be called the father of the kilt. The true tailored kilt (with pleats
                      sewn down) was developed from the feilieadh-beag in the last decade of
                      the eighteenth century.

                      This is a very truncated timeline, of course. If you want more
                      information, check out my book (link below).
                      Aye,
                      Eogan

                      Get the new book, Early Highland Dress!
                      Available now at <http://albanach.org> http://albanach.org


                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Brian McDaniel [mailto:bmcdaniel5@...]
                      Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 5:07 PM
                      To: albanach@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [albanach] Re: new to the list

                      I was under the impression that kilts were not known until 17th or
                      18th century, making them non-period all together. I've heard it a
                      few times and read it several places online, but can't tell you the
                      details.

                      I'm actually going to start working on a highland scottish set of
                      garb from around the 9th-10th century from the area around Glencoe
                      (not a final decision, but close enough). I'm thinking more along
                      the lines of peasant garb. From what I've found it consists of

                      Knee length Leine or simple tunic
                      Brat
                      Belt
                      Trousers (mainly during cold weather)
                      Simple wrapped shoes - I've actually got a pair of moccasin boots
                      from Minnetonka with the frills cut off. They look decent, but I
                      doubt they're period for what I'm looking for. Does anyone make a
                      shoe that would fit the period?


                      --- In albanach@yahoogroups.com, "Matthew A. C. Newsome"
                      <eogan@a...> wrote:
                      > Gavine,
                      >
                      > Sounds as if the leine pattern you describe suffers from the same
                      flaw
                      > that many popular reconstructions do. That is, from your
                      description it
                      > sounds as if the sleeves are pulled or gathered along a drawstring
                      that
                      > runs the length of the sleeve. There is no evidence that this was
                      ever
                      > done in period. You can read about that here:
                      > http://reconstructinghistory.com/irish/drawstrings.html
                      >
                      > Aye,
                      > Eogan
                      >
                      > Get the new book, Early Highland Dress!
                      > Available now at <http://albanach.org> http://albanach.org
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: scotsfencer@a... [mailto:scotsfencer@a...]
                      > Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 11:00 PM
                      > To: albanach@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: Re: [albanach] new to the list
                      >
                      > Hawthorn,
                      >
                      > Sounds good, but I agree with Eogan. Its important to know when and
                      > where
                      > your persona is intended to be. These fine folks helped clear my
                      head,
                      > as I had
                      > thought the kilt was all of Scotland.... but it wasnt in the
                      lowlands...
                      > and I
                      > have a lowland persona. Also just as some help... youre looking
                      for a
                      > leine
                      > pattern. I have found a great one, that some may not find. I found
                      it in
                      > the
                      > "women's" clothing. its has four patterns and two of them are
                      leine-ish
                      > (it has
                      > the long sleeves with a large open wrist and string's running
                      down the
                      > length
                      > of the sleeve that you tug up to make the length... if this is not
                      > accurate
                      > for a leine, could the rest of the list let me know).... also you
                      said
                      > puffy
                      > sleeves.... are you looking for puffy sleeves with a tight wrist
                      > cuff.... or with
                      > the large wrist cuffs.
                      >
                      > Vivat,
                      >
                      > Gavine Armestrang
                      > Hospitaller
                      > Barony of Darkwater
                      > Kingdom of Trimaris
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > This is Albanach, a group devoted to the study and re-enactment of
                      > Scotland c. 503-1603 AD. Post messages to albanach@egroups.com
                      Alter
                      > your account or view the archives at www.egroups.com/list/albanach
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > _____
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/albanach/
                      >
                      > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > albanach-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > <mailto:albanach-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                      >
                      > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
                      of
                      > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Service.
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                      This is Albanach, a group devoted to the study and re-enactment of
                      Scotland c. 503-1603 AD. Post messages to albanach@egroups.com. Alter
                      your account or view the archives at www.egroups.com/list/albanach





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