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Scotland in the spring/Cotton

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  • Nancy Zupanic
    Greetings! I m entering my first Arts & Sciences competition this spring, and need a few ideas. It is a needlework competition with the theme of spring. I m
    Message 1 of 29 , Feb 4, 2004
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      Greetings!

      I'm entering my first Arts & Sciences competition this spring, and need a
      few ideas. It is a needlework competition with the theme of spring. I'm
      embroidering the sleeves of a tunic, and was going to do wild roses, but I'm
      looking for something perhaps more original.

      What sort of activities are signs of spring in Medieval Scotland, other than
      sowing seeds? Is there perhaps a plant in areas of Scotland that is
      harvested in spring to make dye?

      I also thought that we had once discussed when cotton might have come into
      use in Scotland, but I did a search of the archived messages and came up
      with nothing. Does anyone know when cotton came into use? I'll use linen
      if I must, but I prefer cotton, if it's feasible (the type of material used
      in the project counts).

      Thanks!

      Muirgheal (Morel)
    • Colin Campbell de Leith
      Cotton was in use but not for Clothing until after the the Rennissance. Cotton was used for making Sails and other Canvas goods. Linen or Wool would be the
      Message 2 of 29 , Feb 4, 2004
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        Cotton was in use but not for Clothing until after the the Rennissance.
        Cotton was used for making Sails and other Canvas goods. Linen or Wool
        would be the easiest to Document. Try
        http://www(DOT)medievalscotland(DOT)org/clothing/ for clothinf info

        Note: I placed the word (DOT) in the place of "."


        >
        >
        >
        > Greetings!
        >
        > I'm entering my first Arts & Sciences competition this spring, and
        > need a few ideas.  It is a needlework competition with the theme of
        > spring.  I'm embroidering the sleeves of a tunic, and was going to
        > do wild roses, but I'm looking for something perhaps more original.
        >
        > What sort of activities are signs of spring in Medieval Scotland, other
        > than sowing seeds?  Is there perhaps a plant in areas of Scotland
        > that is harvested in spring to make dye?
        >
        > I also thought that we had once discussed when cotton might have come
        > into use in Scotland, but I did a search of the archived messages and
        > came up with nothing.  Does anyone know when cotton came into
        > use?  I'll use linen if I must, but I prefer cotton, if it's
        > feasible (the type of material used in the project counts).
        >
        > Thanks!
        >
        > Muirgheal (Morel)
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > This is Albanach, a group devoted to the study and re-enactment of
        > Scotland c. 503-1603 AD.  Post messages to
        > albanach@egroups.com.  Alter your account or view the archives at
        > www.egroups.com/list/albanach
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        > To visit your group on the web, go
        > to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/albanach/  To unsubscribe from
        > this group, send an email to:albanach-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com 
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
      • COLLIN KING
        I know that Sailors used excess canvis to make pants and and like durring voyages to and from the new world but i think in Scotland your best bet is stay away
        Message 3 of 29 , Feb 4, 2004
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          I know that Sailors used excess canvis to make pants and and like durring
          voyages to and from the new world but i think in Scotland your best bet is
          stay away from it...Unless you want to go for some one who perhaps had
          taken a journy over ...(the first documented Scot in the New world was named
          Tam Blake (Thomas Blake) he traveled with Spanish Conquistador Francisco
          Vasquez de Coronado in 1540 looking for the Seven Cities of Gold. Tom
          married the widowed Francisca de Rivera of new Spain. The son of William
          Blake and Agnes Mowat, He described himself as a subject of the King of
          Scotland. He held an audience with the Spanish Viceroy in 1550 where it was
          recorded in discussion that Tom had arrived in Mexico in 1534 after taking
          part in the conquest of New Granada with Alonso de Heredera in 1532. While
          with Coronado, Tom was one of the first white men to gaze upon the Grand
          Canyon.
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Colin Campbell de Leith" <midevalscot@...>
          To: <albanach@yahoogroups.com>
          Cc: <bearpaws@...>
          Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2004 1:52 PM
          Subject: Re: [albanach] Scotland in the spring/Cotton


          > Cotton was in use but not for Clothing until after the the Rennissance.
          > Cotton was used for making Sails and other Canvas goods. Linen or Wool
          > would be the easiest to Document. Try
          > http://www(DOT)medievalscotland(DOT)org/clothing/ for clothinf info
          >
          > Note: I placed the word (DOT) in the place of "."
          >
          >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Greetings!
          > >
          > > I'm entering my first Arts & Sciences competition this spring, and
          > > need a few ideas.  It is a needlework competition with the theme of
          > > spring.  I'm embroidering the sleeves of a tunic, and was going to
          > > do wild roses, but I'm looking for something perhaps more original.
          > >
          > > What sort of activities are signs of spring in Medieval Scotland, other
          > > than sowing seeds?  Is there perhaps a plant in areas of Scotland
          > > that is harvested in spring to make dye?
          > >
          > > I also thought that we had once discussed when cotton might have come
          > > into use in Scotland, but I did a search of the archived messages and
          > > came up with nothing.  Does anyone know when cotton came into
          > > use?  I'll use linen if I must, but I prefer cotton, if it's
          > > feasible (the type of material used in the project counts).
          > >
          > > Thanks!
          > >
          > > Muirgheal (Morel)
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > This is Albanach, a group devoted to the study and re-enactment of
          > > Scotland c. 503-1603 AD.  Post messages to
          > > albanach@egroups.com.  Alter your account or view the archives at
          > > www.egroups.com/list/albanach
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > > To visit your group on the web, go
          > > to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/albanach/  To unsubscribe from
          > > this group, send an email to:albanach-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com 
          > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > This is Albanach, a group devoted to the study and re-enactment of
          > Scotland c. 503-1603 AD. Post messages to albanach@egroups.com. Alter
          > your account or view the archives at www.egroups.com/list/albanach
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          > To visit your group on the web, go to:
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/albanach/
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > albanach-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
          > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
        • COLLIN KING
          So I guess another one of my points was guys like Tam were more then likely used to geting what ever clothing they could get their hands on...Like in New Spain
          Message 4 of 29 , Feb 4, 2004
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            So I guess another one of my points was guys like Tam were more then likely
            used to geting what ever clothing they could get their hands on...Like in
            New Spain used sails were often sold to make clothing durring winter months
            when ships were less likely to make the trip over...
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "COLLIN KING" <jacobite@...>
            To: <albanach@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2004 2:17 PM
            Subject: Re: [albanach] Scotland in the spring/Cotton


            > I know that Sailors used excess canvis to make pants and and like durring
            > voyages to and from the new world but i think in Scotland your best bet is
            > stay away from it...Unless you want to go for some one who perhaps had
            > taken a journy over ...(the first documented Scot in the New world was
            named
            > Tam Blake (Thomas Blake) he traveled with Spanish Conquistador Francisco
            > Vasquez de Coronado in 1540 looking for the Seven Cities of Gold. Tom
            > married the widowed Francisca de Rivera of new Spain. The son of William
            > Blake and Agnes Mowat, He described himself as a subject of the King of
            > Scotland. He held an audience with the Spanish Viceroy in 1550 where it
            was
            > recorded in discussion that Tom had arrived in Mexico in 1534 after taking
            > part in the conquest of New Granada with Alonso de Heredera in 1532.
            While
            > with Coronado, Tom was one of the first white men to gaze upon the Grand
            > Canyon.
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "Colin Campbell de Leith" <midevalscot@...>
            > To: <albanach@yahoogroups.com>
            > Cc: <bearpaws@...>
            > Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2004 1:52 PM
            > Subject: Re: [albanach] Scotland in the spring/Cotton
            >
            >
            > > Cotton was in use but not for Clothing until after the the Rennissance.
            > > Cotton was used for making Sails and other Canvas goods. Linen or Wool
            > > would be the easiest to Document. Try
            > > http://www(DOT)medievalscotland(DOT)org/clothing/ for clothinf info
            > >
            > > Note: I placed the word (DOT) in the place of "."
            > >
            > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Greetings!
            > > >
            > > > I'm entering my first Arts & Sciences competition this spring, and
            > > > need a few ideas.  It is a needlework competition with the theme
            of
            > > > spring.  I'm embroidering the sleeves of a tunic, and was going
            to
            > > > do wild roses, but I'm looking for something perhaps more original.
            > > >
            > > > What sort of activities are signs of spring in Medieval Scotland,
            other
            > > > than sowing seeds?  Is there perhaps a plant in areas of Scotland
            > > > that is harvested in spring to make dye?
            > > >
            > > > I also thought that we had once discussed when cotton might have come
            > > > into use in Scotland, but I did a search of the archived messages and
            > > > came up with nothing.  Does anyone know when cotton came into
            > > > use?  I'll use linen if I must, but I prefer cotton, if it's
            > > > feasible (the type of material used in the project counts).
            > > >
            > > > Thanks!
            > > >
            > > > Muirgheal (Morel)
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > This is Albanach, a group devoted to the study and re-enactment of
            > > > Scotland c. 503-1603 AD.  Post messages to
            > > > albanach@egroups.com.  Alter your account or view the archives at
            > > > www.egroups.com/list/albanach
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > > >
            > > > To visit your group on the web, go
            > > > to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/albanach/  To unsubscribe from
            > > > this group, send an email
            to:albanach-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com 
            > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > This is Albanach, a group devoted to the study and re-enactment of
            > > Scotland c. 503-1603 AD. Post messages to albanach@egroups.com. Alter
            > > your account or view the archives at www.egroups.com/list/albanach
            > >
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
            > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/albanach/
            > >
            > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > > albanach-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > >
            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
            > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            > This is Albanach, a group devoted to the study and re-enactment of
            > Scotland c. 503-1603 AD. Post messages to albanach@egroups.com. Alter
            > your account or view the archives at www.egroups.com/list/albanach
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            > To visit your group on the web, go to:
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/albanach/
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > albanach-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
            > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
          • Colin Campbell de Leith
            Ok, The question that was asked was when was Cotton come into use in Scotland. You are using Sailors for a Reference. That may be so. She is talking about Art
            Message 5 of 29 , Feb 4, 2004
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              Ok, The question that was asked was when was Cotton come into use in
              Scotland. You are using Sailors for a Reference. That may be so. She is
              talking about Art & Sciences Competition. I know that in these
              Competitions if you do not have Documentable Sources for the materials
              used then you loose points. Your workmanship may be a Masterwork, however,
              if it is not Documentable via Primary and Secondary Sources then you will
              not score well. I have been apprenticed to a Garb Laurel for 3 years now.
              I have been to many, many Costumers Guild Meetings and the evidence that I
              have seen is that Cotton was not used by the middle/merchant and Noble
              Classes until after the SCA period. Entire meetings have shown a plethora
              of books on Garbing and Materials. I am sure that in the New World that
              they used whatever they could to make clothing. We all can guess what was
              done by people in different places. What i am trying to say is it has
              never been shown to be a Main Stream Fashion material that is Documentable
              in Scotland. The other thing that I have learned is that Primary Sources
              come from Artifacts, Excavations, Museum Displays and Photographic
              evidence from foresaid places. Secondary Sources are those Books that have
              been written based upon said evidence. Also, a true Project that is a
              Reconstruction/experiment starts with research for every material that is
              used in the construction of the Item. Thanks,
              >
              >
              >
              > So I guess another one of my points was guys like Tam were more then
              > likely used to geting what ever clothing they could get their hands
              > on...Like in New Spain used sails were often sold to make clothing
              > durring winter months when ships were less likely to make the trip
              > over...
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "COLLIN KING" <jacobite@...>
              > To: <albanach@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2004 2:17 PM
              > Subject: Re: [albanach] Scotland in the spring/Cotton
              >
              >
              > > I know that Sailors used excess canvis to make pants and and like
              > durring > voyages to and from the new world but i think in Scotland
              > your best bet is > stay away from it...Unless you want to go for some
              > one  who perhaps had > taken a journy over ...(the first
              > documented Scot in the New world was named
              > > Tam Blake (Thomas Blake) he traveled with Spanish Conquistador
              > Francisco > Vasquez de Coronado in 1540 looking for the Seven Cities
              > of Gold. Tom > married the widowed Francisca de Rivera of new Spain.
              > The son of William > Blake and Agnes Mowat, He described himself as a
              > subject of the King of > Scotland.  He held an audience with the
              > Spanish Viceroy in 1550 where it was
              > > recorded in discussion that Tom had arrived in Mexico in 1534 after
              > taking > part in the conquest of New Granada with Alonso de Heredera
              > in 1532. While
              > > with Coronado, Tom was one of the first white men to gaze upon the
              > Grand > Canyon.
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: "Colin Campbell de Leith"
              > <midevalscot@...> > To:
              > <albanach@yahoogroups.com>
              > > Cc: <bearpaws@...>
              > > Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2004 1:52 PM
              > > Subject: Re: [albanach] Scotland in the spring/Cotton
              > >
              > >
              > > > Cotton was in use but not for Clothing until after the the
              > Rennissance. > > Cotton was used for making Sails and other Canvas
              > goods. Linen or Wool > > would be the easiest to Document. Try
              > > > http://www(DOT)medievalscotland(DOT)org/clothing/ for clothinf
              > info > >
              > > > Note: I placed the word (DOT) in the place of "."
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > Greetings!
              > > > >
              > > > > I'm entering my first Arts &amp; Sciences competition
              > this spring, and > > > need a few ideas.&nbsp; It is a
              > needlework competition with the theme of
              > > > > spring.&nbsp; I'm embroidering the sleeves of a
              > tunic, and was going to
              > > > > do wild roses, but I'm looking for something perhaps more
              > original. > > >
              > > > > What sort of activities are signs of spring in Medieval
              > Scotland, other
              > > > > than sowing seeds?&nbsp; Is there perhaps a plant in
              > areas of Scotland > > > that is harvested in spring to make
              > dye?
              > > > >
              > > > > I also thought that we had once discussed when cotton
              > might have come > > > into use in Scotland, but I did a search
              > of the archived messages and > > > came up with
              > nothing.&nbsp; Does anyone know when cotton came into > > >
              > use?&nbsp; I'll use linen if I must, but I prefer cotton, if it's
              > > > > feasible (the type of material used in the project
              > counts). > > >
              > > > > Thanks!
              > > > >
              > > > > Muirgheal (Morel)
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > This is Albanach, a group devoted to the study and
              > re-enactment of > > > Scotland c. 503-1603 AD.&nbsp; Post
              > messages to > > > albanach@egroups.com.&nbsp; Alter your
              > account or view the archives at > > >
              > www.egroups.com/list/albanach
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > > > >
              > > > > To visit your group on the web, go
              > > > > to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/albanach/&nbsp; To
              > unsubscribe from > > > this group, send an email
              > to:albanach-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com&nbsp;
              > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
              > of Service. > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > This is Albanach, a group devoted to the study and
              > re-enactment of > > Scotland c. 503-1603 AD.  Post messages
              > to albanach@egroups.com.  Alter > > your account or view the
              > archives at www.egroups.com/list/albanach > >
              > > >
              > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > > >
              > > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
              > > >  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/albanach/
              > > >
              > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > > >  albanach-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > > >
              > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
              > > >  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > This is Albanach, a group devoted to the study and re-enactment of
              > > Scotland c. 503-1603 AD.  Post messages to
              > albanach@egroups.com.  Alter > your account or view the archives
              > at www.egroups.com/list/albanach >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
              > >  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/albanach/
              > >
              > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > >  albanach-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > >
              > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
              > >  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > This is Albanach, a group devoted to the study and re-enactment of
              > Scotland c. 503-1603 AD.  Post messages to
              > albanach@egroups.com.  Alter your account or view the archives at
              > www.egroups.com/list/albanach
              >
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            • Nancy Zupanic
              Thank you to both Colin and Collin for your replies! ... Yikes, sounds intimidating. However, it also sounds like an interesting challenge, and I m looking
              Message 6 of 29 , Feb 4, 2004
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                Thank you to both Colin and Collin for your replies!

                > She is
                > talking about Art & Sciences Competition. I know that in these
                > Competitions if you do not have Documentable Sources for the materials
                > used then you loose points. Your workmanship may be a Masterwork, however,
                > if it is not Documentable via Primary and Secondary Sources then you will
                > not score well.

                Yikes, sounds intimidating. However, it also sounds like an interesting
                challenge, and I'm looking forward to it.

                Muirgheal (Morel)
              • Ron McCoy
                I feel a bit foolish here talking about something that I know nothing about (hasn t stopped me before!) bu another thought, although I don t know how
                Message 7 of 29 , Feb 4, 2004
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                  I feel a bit foolish here talking about something that I know nothing about
                  (hasn't stopped me before!) bu another thought, although I don't know how
                  historically accurate this is, and I would be really interested to hear
                  peoples views, is the use of the inticate pattterns like icelandic and Fair
                  Isle patterns.

                  Each area and village at a certain time, and this may be a much, much later
                  date than this list, had their own pattern.

                  If a poor sailor was washed overboard and drowned, and was washed ashore,
                  his village could be identified from the pattern on the jumper, although he
                  may have decomposed beyond recognition.

                  These patterns are common throughout the Nordic Viking world, and then
                  mooved to the Scottish and Irish Islands etc, so you may find relevant
                  information in Norwegian historical literature.

                  I suspect this didn't happen until after the times you mentioned, but as I
                  said, it's just a thought!

                  Ronald
                  Melbourne Australia

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Nancy Zupanic [mailto:bearpaws@...]
                  Sent: Thursday, 5 February 2004 1:03 PM
                  To: albanach@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [albanach] Scotland in the spring/Cotton


                  Thank you to both Colin and Collin for your replies!

                  > She is
                  > talking about Art & Sciences Competition. I know that in these
                  > Competitions if you do not have Documentable Sources for the materials
                  > used then you loose points. Your workmanship may be a Masterwork, however,
                  > if it is not Documentable via Primary and Secondary Sources then you will
                  > not score well.

                  Yikes, sounds intimidating. However, it also sounds like an interesting
                  challenge, and I'm looking forward to it.

                  Muirgheal (Morel)





                  This is Albanach, a group devoted to the study and re-enactment of
                  Scotland c. 503-1603 AD. Post messages to albanach@egroups.com. Alter
                  your account or view the archives at www.egroups.com/list/albanach
                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                • ebrowder@widomaker.com
                  The words canvas and duck refer to a closely woven heavy cloth (different weaves between the two) and not to a particular fiber. Canvas was woven of linen
                  Message 8 of 29 , Feb 5, 2004
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                    The words "canvas" and "duck" refer to a closely woven heavy cloth (different
                    weaves between the two) and not to a particular fiber. Canvas was woven of
                    linen in the 18th century and earlier. The canvs sails on the windmill at
                    Colonial Williamsburg are linen canvas, specifically woven by our weaver to
                    match 18th century material. If you are looking to Renaissance and Medieval
                    Europe, I think that you are too early for cotton fibers.

                    Tioraidh,
                    Shel

                    Quoting Nancy Zupanic <bearpaws@...>:

                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Thank you to both Colin and Collin for your replies!
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > > She is
                    >
                    > > talking about Art & Sciences Competition. I know that in these
                    >
                    > > Competitions if you do not have Documentable Sources for the materials
                    >
                    > > used then you loose points. Your workmanship may be a Masterwork, however,
                    >
                    > > if it is not Documentable via Primary and Secondary Sources then you will
                    >
                    > > not score well.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yikes, sounds intimidating.  However, it also sounds like an interesting
                    >
                    > challenge, and I'm looking forward to it.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Muirgheal (Morel)
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > This is Albanach, a group devoted to the study and re-enactment of
                    >
                    > Scotland c. 503-1603 AD.  Post messages to albanach@egroups.com.  Alter
                    >
                    > your account or view the archives at www.egroups.com/list/albanach
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
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                    >
                    >
                    > ADVERTISEMENT
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                  • Joy Fisher
                    I think cotton was available in late period (1600 s).I remember reading that Queen Elizabeth had a cotton undergown, but only wore it for special occassions
                    Message 9 of 29 , Feb 5, 2004
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                      I think cotton was available in late period (1600's).I remember reading that Queen Elizabeth had a cotton undergown, but only wore it for special occassions because of it's value. Unfortunately I can't remember where I read that.
                      But it definately wasn't in use by less than royalty.
                      Joy


                      ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
                      From: "" <ebrowder@...>
                      Reply-To: albanach@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 04:16:08 -0500

                      >The words "canvas" and "duck" refer to a closely woven heavy cloth (different
                      >weaves between the two) and not to a particular fiber. Canvas was woven of
                      >linen in the 18th century and earlier. The canvs sails on the windmill at
                      >Colonial Williamsburg are linen canvas, specifically woven by our weaver to
                      >match 18th century material. If you are looking to Renaissance and Medieval
                      >Europe, I think that you are too early for cotton fibers.
                      >
                      >Tioraidh,
                      >Shel
                      >
                      >Quoting Nancy Zupanic <bearpaws@...>:
                      >
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> Thank you to both Colin and Collin for your replies!
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> > She is
                      >>
                      >> > talking about Art & Sciences Competition. I know that in these
                      >>
                      >> > Competitions if you do not have Documentable Sources for the materials
                      >>
                      >> > used then you loose points. Your workmanship may be a Masterwork, however,
                      >>
                      >> > if it is not Documentable via Primary and Secondary Sources then you will
                      >>
                      >> > not score well.
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> Yikes, sounds intimidating.  However, it also sounds like an interesting
                      >>
                      >> challenge, and I'm looking forward to it.
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> Muirgheal (Morel)
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> This is Albanach, a group devoted to the study and re-enactment of
                      >>
                      >> Scotland c. 503-1603 AD.  Post messages to albanach@egroups.com.  Alter
                      >>
                      >> your account or view the archives at www.egroups.com/list/albanach
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                      >This is Albanach, a group devoted to the study and re-enactment of
                      >Scotland c. 503-1603 AD. Post messages to albanach@egroups.com. Alter
                      >your account or view the archives at www.egroups.com/list/albanach
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                    • Marti
                      Just a thought, the use of Cotton is documented for clothing use in Egypt. See: http://www.cottonsa.org.za/history_cotton.html So, I guess it depends on just
                      Message 10 of 29 , Feb 5, 2004
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                        Just a thought, the use of Cotton is documented for clothing use in
                        Egypt. See: http://www.cottonsa.org.za/history_cotton.html

                        So, I guess it depends on just where your Scotsman traveled.

                        ----- Marsaili inghean Eoin
                      • harriotsfield@scribe.sca.org
                        Just a side comment. Elizabeth had two pair of undergarments given to her as a gift and did not wear them because they were so costly. Can t remember the
                        Message 11 of 29 , Feb 5, 2004
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                          Just a side comment. Elizabeth had two pair of undergarments given to her
                          as a gift and did not wear them because they were so costly. Can't
                          remember the source but the fact stuck with me.
                          Johan
                        • Nancy Zupanic
                          Thank you to everyone who replied about the use of cotton. I believe I have come up with an idea for my design. It will involve learning a bit more about
                          Message 12 of 29 , Feb 5, 2004
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Thank you to everyone who replied about the use of cotton. I believe I have
                            come up with an idea for my design. It will involve learning a bit more
                            about some of the plants used for dye, such as when they would be harvested
                            for use. In fact, I'm going to embroider pictures of the plants that would
                            be harvested in the spring to use in dye. I have a color chart (somewhere
                            in my SCA cluttered house) that a lady created matching naturally dyed
                            materials with a corresponding dmc color, so I can create my needlework in
                            colors that would actually have been produced in period.

                            Can anyone tell me what dye plants (such as madder, woad, etc.) might have
                            been grown in Scotland, or where I might find such information?

                            Thanks!

                            Muirgheal
                          • Matthew A. C. Newsome
                            ... have ... harvested ... would ... You might be interested in this resource: Traditional Scottish Dyes, by Jean Fraser
                            Message 13 of 29 , Feb 6, 2004
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                              > Thank you to everyone who replied about the use of cotton. I believe I
                              have
                              > come up with an idea for my design. It will involve learning a bit more
                              > about some of the plants used for dye, such as when they would be
                              harvested
                              > for use. In fact, I'm going to embroider pictures of the plants that
                              would
                              > be harvested in the spring to use in dye. I have a color chart (somewhere
                              > in my SCA cluttered house) that a lady created matching naturally dyed
                              > materials with a corresponding dmc color, so I can create my needlework in
                              > colors that would actually have been produced in period.
                              >
                              > Can anyone tell me what dye plants (such as madder, woad, etc.) might have
                              > been grown in Scotland, or where I might find such information?

                              You might be interested in this resource:
                              Traditional Scottish Dyes, by Jean Fraser
                              http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0862415756/qid%3D1076067917//1
                              02-3968954-9258549

                              Aye,
                              Eogan
                            • ebrowder@widomaker.com
                              There is an apppendix by Annette Kok in Dunbar s HISTORY OF HIGHLAND DRESS that discusses Scottish dye plants and colors. This would be an excellent strt. You
                              Message 14 of 29 , Feb 6, 2004
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                                There is an apppendix by Annette Kok in Dunbar's HISTORY OF HIGHLAND DRESS that
                                discusses Scottish dye plants and colors. This would be an excellent strt. You
                                should be able to find the book at a good library or through an inter library
                                loan.

                                Tioraidh,
                                Shel


                                Quoting Nancy Zupanic <bearpaws@...>:

                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Thank you to everyone who replied about the use of cotton.  I believe I have
                                >
                                > come up with an idea for my design.  It will involve learning a bit more
                                >
                                > about some of the plants used for dye, such as when they would be harvested
                                >
                                > for use.  In fact, I'm going to embroider pictures of the plants that would
                                >
                                > be harvested in the spring to use in dye.  I have a color chart (somewhere
                                >
                                > in my SCA cluttered house) that a lady created matching naturally dyed
                                >
                                > materials with a corresponding dmc color, so I can create my needlework in
                                >
                                > colors that would actually have been produced in period.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Can anyone tell me what dye plants (such as madder, woad, etc.) might have
                                >
                                > been grown in Scotland, or where I might find such information?
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Thanks!
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Muirgheal
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > This is Albanach, a group devoted to the study and re-enactment of
                                >
                                > Scotland c. 503-1603 AD.  Post messages to albanach@egroups.com.  Alter
                                >
                                > your account or view the archives at www.egroups.com/list/albanach
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/albanach/
                                >  
                                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                > albanach-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                >  
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                                >
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                              • rowen_g
                                I have found some interesting information in this book: The Colour Caldron: The History and Use of Natural Dyes in Scotland; Su Grierson, Mill Books, Perth,
                                Message 15 of 29 , Feb 6, 2004
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                                  I have found some interesting information in this book: The Colour Caldron: The History and Use of
                                  Natural Dyes in Scotland; Su Grierson, Mill Books, Perth, 1989

                                  Rowen


                                  <snip>
                                  > > Can anyone tell me what dye plants (such as madder, woad, etc.) might have
                                  > > been grown in Scotland, or where I might find such information?
                                  > >
                                  > > Thanks!
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Muirgheal
                                • Nancy Zupanic
                                  ... Caldron: The History and Use of ... Thank you to both Shel and Rowen. Unfortunately, my library does not have either of these books (we have an online
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Feb 6, 2004
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                                    > I have found some interesting information in this book: The Colour
                                    Caldron: The History and Use of
                                    > Natural Dyes in Scotland; Su Grierson, Mill Books, Perth, 1989

                                    Thank you to both Shel and Rowen. Unfortunately, my library does not have
                                    either of these books (we have an online catalogue), but I really appreciate
                                    the reference. I believe that I can request my library to purchas books,
                                    which might come in very handy for future reference.

                                    Morel
                                  • Diana Cosby
                                    Nancy Zupanic wrote:
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Feb 6, 2004
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Nancy Zupanic wrote: <<I have found some interesting information in
                                      this book: The Colour Caldron: The History and Use of Natural Dyes in
                                      Scotland; Su Grierson, Mill Books, Perth, 1989>>----Thank you to both
                                      Shel and Rowen. Unfortunately, my library does not have either of these
                                      books (we have an online catalogue), but I really appreciate the
                                      reference. I believe that I can request my library to purchas books,
                                      which might come in very handy for future reference.

                                      ~Morel, I found a copy on www.abe.com if you're interested.

                                      Diana Cosby

                                      --
                                      AGC(AW) USN Retired
                                      wulfe6@...
                                      http://members.cox.net/wulfe6/
                                      "You can't want to be a writer, you have to be one." --Paul Theroux
                                    • Nancy Zupanic
                                      ... http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0862415756/qid%3D1076067917//1 ... (sigh) I ask for resources, and I get sent several lovely references, and
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Feb 6, 2004
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                                        Eogan wrote:
                                        > You might be interested in this resource:
                                        > Traditional Scottish Dyes, by Jean Fraser
                                        >
                                        http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0862415756/qid%3D1076067917//1
                                        > 02-3968954-9258549

                                        (sigh) I ask for resources, and I get sent several lovely references, and my
                                        library stocks non of them!! Ah well, we do have a number of books on
                                        natural dye sources, so I've put holds on them. It's very possible that
                                        there is some history in these books, and if not, it will give me a starting
                                        point.

                                        Thanks everyone!

                                        Muirgheal (Morel)
                                      • Nancy Zupanic
                                        ... Thank you kindly, but I can t afford to buy any books at the moment. I wish it weren t so! I depend a lot on my library, but I ll be moving to a
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Feb 6, 2004
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                                          Diana wrote:
                                          > ~Morel, I found a copy on www.abe.com if you're interested.

                                          Thank you kindly, but I can't afford to buy any books at the moment. I wish
                                          it weren't so! I depend a lot on my library, but I'll be moving to a
                                          University city in a few months and will have access to an excellent library
                                          then. It will be too late for this particular project, but will help with
                                          future issues.

                                          Thank you!

                                          Muirgheal (Morel)
                                        • Joy L Fisher
                                          Most libraries anymore have inter library loan programs, you should check into that. Here in MI we also have a program where if you have a library card, it is
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Feb 6, 2004
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                                            Most libraries anymore have inter library loan programs, you should
                                            check into that. Here in MI we also have a program where if you have a
                                            library card, it is good in many different college and city libraries
                                            around the state.
                                            Joy

                                            Nancy Zupanic wrote:

                                            >>I have found some interesting information in this book: The Colour
                                            >>
                                            > Caldron: The History and Use of
                                            >
                                            >>Natural Dyes in Scotland; Su Grierson, Mill Books, Perth, 1989
                                            >>
                                            >
                                            > Thank you to both Shel and Rowen. Unfortunately, my library does not have
                                            > either of these books (we have an online catalogue), but I really appreciate
                                            > the reference. I believe that I can request my library to purchas books,
                                            > which might come in very handy for future reference.
                                            >
                                            > Morel
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > This is Albanach, a group devoted to the study and re-enactment of
                                            > Scotland c. 503-1603 AD. Post messages to albanach@egroups.com. Alter
                                            > your account or view the archives at www.egroups.com/list/albanach
                                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > ---
                                            > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >


                                            ---
                                            [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
                                          • Nancy Zupanic
                                            ... Thank you, Joy. We do have several branches throughout the Island and Mainland, and books can be moved around, but the catalogue covers the entire
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Feb 6, 2004
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                                              > Most libraries anymore have inter library loan programs, you should
                                              > check into that. Here in MI we also have a program where if you have a
                                              > library card, it is good in many different college and city libraries
                                              > around the state.

                                              Thank you, Joy. We do have several branches throughout the Island and
                                              Mainland, and books can be moved around, but the catalogue covers the entire
                                              library's stock and tells us where the books are presently. But, I will see
                                              if our library will do the inter-library loan program with either of the two
                                              universities on the Island here (it's a big Island). That may be the
                                              solution!

                                              Muirgheal
                                            • malkin7@aol.com
                                              In a message dated 2/6/2004 11:27:07 AM US Mountain Standard Time, ... sometimes the interlibrary loan program works with library systems in other states,
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Feb 6, 2004
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                                                In a message dated 2/6/2004 11:27:07 AM US Mountain Standard Time,
                                                bearpaws@... writes:

                                                > But, I will see
                                                > if our library will do the inter-library loan program with either of the two
                                                > universities on the Island here (it's a big Island).&nbsp; That may be the
                                                > solution!
                                                >
                                                > Muirgheal
                                                >

                                                sometimes the interlibrary loan program works with library systems in other
                                                states, etc.&nbsp; worth looking into
                                                Heleyne


                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • Tina Paxton
                                                If I may be of assistance....I have in my possession the below mentioned book, Traditional Scottish Dyes and if you are nearby would be happy to loan it to
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Feb 6, 2004
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  If I may be of assistance....I have in my possession the below mentioned
                                                  book, "Traditional Scottish Dyes" and if you are nearby would be happy to
                                                  loan it to you.

                                                  Cristiane de Paxtoun
                                                  MKA Tina Paxton
                                                  Shire of Seareach
                                                  Apprentice, Companions of the Silver Spindle
                                                  Atlantian Embroiderer's Guild
                                                  Keepers of the Clewe


                                                  on 2/6/04 11:37 AM, Nancy Zupanic at bearpaws@... wrote:

                                                  > Eogan wrote:
                                                  >> You might be interested in this resource:
                                                  >> Traditional Scottish Dyes, by Jean Fraser
                                                  >>
                                                  > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0862415756/qid%3D1076067917//1
                                                  >> 02-3968954-9258549
                                                  >
                                                  > (sigh) I ask for resources, and I get sent several lovely references, and my
                                                  > library stocks non of them!! Ah well, we do have a number of books on
                                                  > natural dye sources, so I've put holds on them. It's very possible that
                                                  > there is some history in these books, and if not, it will give me a starting
                                                  > point.
                                                  >
                                                  > Thanks everyone!
                                                  >
                                                  > Muirgheal (Morel)
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > This is Albanach, a group devoted to the study and re-enactment of
                                                  > Scotland c. 503-1603 AD. Post messages to albanach@egroups.com. Alter
                                                  > your account or view the archives at www.egroups.com/list/albanach
                                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                • ebrowder@widomaker.com
                                                  Nancy, Even small town libraries wil do inter-library loans with other libraries. Check and see if yours has this service. I lived in a very small NC town for
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Feb 6, 2004
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Nancy,

                                                    Even small town libraries wil do inter-library loans with other libraries.
                                                    Check and see if yours has this service. I lived in a very small NC town for
                                                    many years and our library would get books from anywhere in the state.

                                                    Shel


                                                    Quoting Nancy Zupanic <bearpaws@...>:

                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > Diana wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > > ~Morel, I found a copy on www.abe.com if you're interested.
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > Thank you kindly, but I can't afford to buy any books at the moment.  I wish
                                                    >
                                                    > it weren't so!  I depend a lot on my library, but I'll be moving to a
                                                    >
                                                    > University city in a few months and will have access to an excellent library
                                                    >
                                                    > then.  It will be too late for this particular project, but will help with
                                                    >
                                                    > future issues.
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > Thank you!
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > Muirgheal (Morel)
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > This is Albanach, a group devoted to the study and re-enactment of
                                                    >
                                                    > Scotland c. 503-1603 AD.  Post messages to albanach@egroups.com.  Alter
                                                    >
                                                    > your account or view the archives at www.egroups.com/list/albanach
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/albanach/
                                                    >  
                                                    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                    > albanach-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                    >  
                                                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
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                                                    >
                                                  • Nancy Zupanic
                                                    ... other ... I m certainly going to give it a try. I live on an Island (in Canada), which might hinder it a bit, but it is still worth checking it out.
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Feb 6, 2004
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      > sometimes the interlibrary loan program works with library systems in
                                                      other
                                                      > states, etc.&nbsp; worth looking into
                                                      > Heleyne

                                                      I'm certainly going to give it a try. I live on an Island (in Canada),
                                                      which might hinder it a bit, but it is still worth checking it out.

                                                      Thanks!

                                                      Morel
                                                    • Nancy Zupanic
                                                      ... You are *so* kind to offer me the loan of such a treasure! I fear, however, that we are at opposite ends of the continent. I live on Vancouver Island,
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Feb 6, 2004
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                                                        Cristiane de Paxtoun wrote:
                                                        > If I may be of assistance....I have in my possession the below mentioned
                                                        > book, "Traditional Scottish Dyes" and if you are nearby would be happy to
                                                        > loan it to you.

                                                        You are *so* kind to offer me the loan of such a treasure! I fear, however,
                                                        that we are at opposite ends of the continent. I live on Vancouver Island,
                                                        off the west coast of Canada.

                                                        I'm happy that I now have a plan, some books on the way, and I now know what
                                                        to look for. So I feel that, thanks to the nice folks on this list, I am
                                                        making some good progress. :^}

                                                        Muirgheal
                                                      • Nancy Zupanic
                                                        ... for ... It would be great if it works like that here. If so, then I may be able to get one of the referenced books from one of the Universities. I ll let
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , Feb 6, 2004
                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                          > Even small town libraries wil do inter-library loans with other libraries.
                                                          > Check and see if yours has this service. I lived in a very small NC town
                                                          for
                                                          > many years and our library would get books from anywhere in the state.
                                                          >
                                                          > Shel

                                                          It would be great if it works like that here. If so, then I may be able to
                                                          get one of the referenced books from one of the Universities. I'll let you
                                                          know how it goes!

                                                          Thanks

                                                          Muirgheal
                                                        • scotsfencer@aol.com
                                                          In a message dated 2/6/2004 2:16:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, bearpaws@island.net writes: Can anyone tell me what dye plants (such as madder, woad, etc.) might
                                                          Message 28 of 29 , Feb 8, 2004
                                                          • 0 Attachment
                                                            In a message dated 2/6/2004 2:16:22 AM Eastern Standard Time,
                                                            bearpaws@... writes:
                                                            Can anyone tell me what dye plants (such as madder, woad, etc.) might have
                                                            been grown in Scotland, or where I might find such information?
                                                            I know that Woad grew in the highlands (Pictish Dye) but I dont know where
                                                            else... so it kinda matters where yer doing it from


                                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                          • Tina Paxton
                                                            ... I m glad to hear it, Milady. Cristiane de Paxtoun MKA Tina Paxton Shire of Seareach Apprentice, Companions of the Silver Spindle Atlantian Embroiderer s
                                                            Message 29 of 29 , Feb 8, 2004
                                                            • 0 Attachment
                                                              on 2/7/04 1:36 AM, Nancy Zupanic at bearpaws@... wrote:


                                                              > I'm happy that I now have a plan, some books on the way, and I now know what
                                                              > to look for. So I feel that, thanks to the nice folks on this list, I am
                                                              > making some good progress. :^}
                                                              >
                                                              > Muirgheal

                                                              I'm glad to hear it, Milady.


                                                              Cristiane de Paxtoun
                                                              MKA Tina Paxton
                                                              Shire of Seareach
                                                              Apprentice, Companions of the Silver Spindle
                                                              Atlantian Embroiderer's Guild
                                                              Keepers of the Clewe
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