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  • Julia Windsor
    unsubscribe === Lady Julia Windsor Argent, a portcullis and chief embattled azure. Guildmistress Windmasters Hill Brewers Guild ... eGroup home:
    Message 1 of 13 , Mar 14, 1999
      unsubscribe

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      Lady Julia Windsor
      Argent, a portcullis and chief embattled azure.
      Guildmistress
      Windmasters' Hill Brewers' Guild



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    • phil@globeco.net
      One of the most important details in developing a personae is the name. For the name must be historically correct and there fore requires one does some sort of
      Message 2 of 13 , Apr 6, 1999
        One of the most important details in developing a personae is the name.
        For the name must be historically correct and there fore requires one does some sort of research.
        I am having alittle trouble finding the info necessary to give my personae a historically correct name.
        Angus is the name I have chosen as a first. But, just because he comes from the Inner Hebrides islands does that mean his last name has to or should be MacDonald. I find it hard to believe that even though they were the predominant family in the area that everyone was named MacDonald. Can someone shed some light on this?
        Phil

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      • EoganOg@aol.com
        In a message dated 4/6/99 7:57:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, phil@globeco.net ... from ... You are very correct in your assumptions. Not everyone was named
        Message 3 of 13 , Apr 6, 1999
          In a message dated 4/6/99 7:57:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, phil@...
          writes:

          > Angus is the name I have chosen as a first. But, just because he comes
          from
          > the Inner Hebrides islands does that mean his last name has to or should be
          > MacDonald. I find it hard to believe that even though they were the
          > predominant family in the area that everyone was named MacDonald. Can
          > someone shed some light on this?

          You are very correct in your assumptions. Not everyone was named MacDonald at
          all. Following is an excerpt on surnames from my web page on basic Highland
          naming practices. http://www3.wcu.edu/~mn13189/name.htm
          Keep in mind for the western Highlands that all the elements would be in
          Gaelic.
          ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          -------------
          Now, there were other things you could add to this basic [given] name if
          the need arose. One of these was an indentifier. This was usually based on
          a physical characteristic (although it did not have to be), and was used to
          distinguish you from others with your name. My identifier would be Og. This
          is Gaelic for "young." So I would be Eogan the Young. Supposedly there is a
          Eogan the Old running around out there somewhere. Other possible identifiers
          would be Dhu (black), Bhan (pretty), or any number of other possibilities.
          The Scottish name "Campbell" comes from the Gaelic words for "crooked mouth."
          The Scottish king Malcolm Canmore is actually Malcolm Big Head when you
          translate his name from Gaelic. The famous Robert Roy MacGregor is Robert
          "Red" MacGregor. So you can see how these identifiers were used.
          Now you could also distinguish yourself with a partonym. This would be
          using your father's name. In my own case, this is where the Mac Labhrainn
          comes from. Translated from gaelic, this means "son of Laurence." The Mac
          (pronounced MOC) means "son of" and the Labhrainn is an old Gaelic version
          of the name Laurence. It is pronounced LOW-run, or something similar.
          (Likewise, you will often see me spell it without the "h" for similar reasons
          as above.) This is where all the names like MacDonald or MacIntyre, or
          MacAnything come from. Note that when you are using this patronym as an
          identifier, there is a space between the "Mac" and the name. They are two
          words. Later, when people actually started using these names as ligitimate
          surnames, handed down through the generations, the Mac and the name fused
          together.
          You could also identfy yourslef by your occupation. In my case that
          would be Eogan Bard. (This is actually a period surname). You would
          distinguish yourslef by saying what it is that you do. This is where we get
          names like "Smith," (Gow in Gaelic), "Taylor," "Stewart," etc. There are
          tons of these types of names on record like Robert le Harpour (Robert the
          Harper), or Robert le Troumpatour (Ro: the trumpeter). You get the idea.
          One final way of distinguishing yourself was by telling where you were
          from. This was done mainly by people who travelled. If I were to go to a
          different village than my home, people I met would most likely not care if I
          was Eogan the Young. Who is Eogan the Old? And if I were Eogan son of
          Laurence, what did that mean? No one knew who Laurence was? I could
          identify myself by my trade, Eogan Bard, and then everyone would know what I
          did. But most likely people would be more interested in where I came from.
          So I would use a name such as Eogan of Inverness. Or, If I belonged to a
          clan I may use the clan name (not all Highland Scots belonged to clans, by
          the way). Or I may use the name of my cheif. A lot of MacDonalds, for
          example, went by MacIan, after their cheif. The father from home I got, the
          more general I may be. I may use Eogan of the Highlands if I traveled south
          (there is a surname "Hyland" that probably came from this source). If I went
          into Ireland, I may call myself Eogan Albanach (Gaelic for Eogan of
          Scotland). In England I would be Ewan Scot, or Ewan the Scot.
          People had been using this system of names for centuries in Scotland.
          They would have their first names, and then distinguish them in one of
          several ways . After about the 12th century, the notion of a surname (forst
          introduced to the British Isles by the Normans in 1066) began to take hold.
          Social climbers in Scotland would definitely adopt a surname, since that was
          the politically fashionable thing to do. After a time, even the rural folk
          were expected to have surnames (although this really didn't have much effect
          until after our time period). census takers would travel to the Highland
          villages and try to take their records. They insisted that peolpe have two
          names, so many of them would use one of the identifiers I have mentioned.
          This is how many of the names got onto record. Eventually the notion of a
          hereditary surname took holdin the Highlands as well, and now we have the
          system of surnames common to most of us today. But names like MacDonald,
          Macgregor, McLaren, Magill, Ogg, Smith, Shepherd, Lachlann, and the rest, all
          have their roots in this naming system of the past.
          ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          ---

          Another very good source on Scottish names that everyone should be aware of
          is the Medieval Scotland web page at
          http://www.abdn.ac.uk/~his016/medievalscotland.html
          written by Sharon Krossa. SHe has several excellent articles on Scottish
          names and naming practices.

          Aye,
          Eo

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        • magnuscs@bellsouth.net
          Greetings to everyone! I just found this group by accident...but I am very excited to have done so! I am Sorsha...at least I m known so by my friends within
          Message 4 of 13 , Apr 18, 1999
            Greetings to everyone!

            I just found this group by accident...but I am very excited to have done so!

            I am Sorsha...at least I'm known so by my friends within the SCA. I am actively involved in the Shire of Castlemere, which is in the Kingdom of Trimaris. I am new to the SCA...almost a year now...and I'm working on my persona.

            My persona...is Scot...*smile*. I choose this because my mundane family ancentry is also Scot, and it would seem I've inherited many physical attributes of my Scottish ancestry...including red hair, fair skin, blue eyes...and a temper to boot!! *grin* Did I mention I have a penchant for men in kilts??

            Anyway...I want to learn so I can more fully develop my persona. Already, I know my persona will be a bard...or a bard wannabe...LOL. And I'm looking at the later 16th - early 17th century because I love wearing Elizabethan garb.

            Well...I guess that's enough for now....looking to hear from all of you!

            *waving hi*

            Sorsha inghean L�od
            Webmistress of Castlemere

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          • EoganOg@aol.com
            In a message dated 4/18/99 4:48:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ... I m ... Well, if you like men in kilts, you have picked the right time period! ;-) Late 16th
            Message 5 of 13 , Apr 18, 1999
              In a message dated 4/18/99 4:48:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
              magnuscs@... writes:

              > Already, I know my persona will be a bard...or a bard wannabe...LOL. And
              I'm
              > looking at the later 16th - early 17th century because I love wearing
              > Elizabethan garb.

              Well, if you like men in kilts, you have picked the right time period! ;-)
              Late 16th century is when Gaelic clothing, in my opinion, gets real
              interesting, and we also have a lot more information on Scots Gaelic clothing
              from that period than we do from any earlier time. Unfortunately, we still
              don't have much on women's dress. May I reccomend the following web sites:
              http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~wew/celt-clothing/
              http://www.abdn.ac.uk/~his016/clothing/scotwomen.html
              http://www.abdn.ac.uk/~his016/clothing/leine.html
              And for more southerly fashons...
              http://www.dnaco.net/~aleed/corsets/general.html

              Welcome aboard!
              Aye,
              Eo
              ============================================
              Tighearn Eoghan Og Mac Labhrainn, CP
              Sangster of Scotland and Atlantia
              Chronicler of the Militant Society of Bards
              <A
              HREF="http://www3.wcu.edu/~mn13189/sca.htm">http://www3.wcu.edu/~mn13189/sca.h
              tm
              </A>
              Checky Or & Vert, two lions combattant, tails knowed, in base a
              mouse couchant, all within an orle of roundels, Argent.
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              ALBANACH Egroup (a discussion group for things Scottish 503-1603AD)
              http://www.egroups.com/group/albanach
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            • Mark and Angel
              Thank you milord for such a nice welcome! Sometimes I feel like a sponge..soaking up all the information a can gather! What brought me to the list, is a post
              Message 6 of 13 , Apr 18, 1999
                Thank you milord for such a nice welcome!

                Sometimes I feel like a sponge..soaking up all the information a can
                gather! What brought me to the list, is a post you made to another
                list...minstrel@onelist.com...and I followed a link on your post...and voila!

                Please good sir...I see we have similar interests! I wish to tell
                stories...(I've been telling them mundanely for years). I also wish to
                sing ballads. As I stated before...my persona will be late 16th century.
                My lord, Magnus, plays guitar and wants to accompany me. I would also love
                to play an instrument...but since I don't mundanely play one...I'm not sure
                what would be best.

                I also have a name question. My maiden name is McCollum. I've gotten
                conflicting reports on its origins. My father and aunt both tell me it is
                Scottish, and that there ancestors came to the US during a famine...and
                settled originally in North Carolina. Do youhave any info on this? Not
                necessarily on NC...but on the McCollum's? Scottish? or...as I've also
                been told...Irish?

                I'd appreciate any info you can share!

                Thank you...now...off to click on more of your links...LOL

                Sorsha


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              • Sharon L. Krossa
                ... It could be either (or none). The only way to know is to research your genealogy back generation by generation (starting with yourself) until you find your
                Message 7 of 13 , Apr 19, 1999
                  At 5:42 PM -0400 4/18/99, Mark and Angel wrote:
                  >I also have a name question. My maiden name is McCollum. I've gotten
                  >conflicting reports on its origins. My father and aunt both tell me it is
                  >Scottish, and that there ancestors came to the US during a famine...and
                  >settled originally in North Carolina. Do youhave any info on this? Not
                  >necessarily on NC...but on the McCollum's? Scottish? or...as I've also
                  >been told...Irish?

                  It could be either (or none). The only way to know is to research your
                  genealogy back generation by generation (starting with yourself) until you
                  find your immigrant ancestors and where they immigrated from. A name alone
                  cannot reliably tell you where your ancestors originated.

                  For period purposes, it doesn't much matter -- at least in Scotland.
                  Scottish Gaels don't seem to have used fixed inherited surnames in Gaelic.
                  Rather, they used bynames specific to the individual. See the article
                  "Quick and Easy Gaelic Bynames", which can be found at the various websites
                  listed in my .sig.

                  Eafric
                  Sharon L. Krossa, krossa@...

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                • EoganOg@aol.com
                  ... As far as what instrument would be best just to accompany yourself singing around SCA campfires and also performing some period music, the guitar is a good
                  Message 8 of 13 , Apr 19, 1999
                    In a message dated 99-04-18 17:47:39 EDT, you write:

                    > Please good sir...I see we have similar interests! I wish to tell
                    > stories...(I've been telling them mundanely for years). I also wish to
                    > sing ballads. As I stated before...my persona will be late 16th century.
                    > My lord, Magnus, plays guitar and wants to accompany me. I would also love
                    > to play an instrument...but since I don't mundanely play one...I'm not sure
                    > what would be best.

                    As far as what instrument would be best just to accompany yourself singing
                    around SCA campfires and also performing some period music, the guitar is a
                    good choice, with period anscestors. But keep in mind that most early
                    ballads (earlier than about 1950 ;-) were sung unaccompanied.

                    The Child collection contains a handful of ballads that can be dated to
                    pre-1600 Scotland. A recent Complete Anachronist on the topic has been
                    webbed at http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/ballads/early_child/

                    If you are interested in the actual instruments of the period, you may be
                    interested in the following section from my article, "The Scottish Medieval
                    Performing Class" taken from my notes on Henry George Farmer's, _A History of
                    Music in Scotland_. The folowing is from Part III: The Golden Age
                    (1424-1560), and first appeared in the Summer 1998 issue of the _Motley
                    Crew_, newsletter for the Militant Society of Bards:
                    "Two instruments that were very popular at this time were the Highland
                    clarsech and the Lowland harp. Essentially these two names describe like
                    instruments, but there were several differences between them. The clarsech
                    used wire strings, had a soundboard covered with leather, and was plucked
                    with fingernails that were allowed to grow long. The harp, on the other
                    hand, used gut strings and had a mellower sound.
                    "Other instruments to be found mentioned in the period were the rote,
                    psaltry (triangular), dulcimer (hammered), manichord (a mechanical dulcimer
                    with a keyboard), the clavichord, and the organ. Farmer writes that
                    "instruments of the lute, guitar, and citole groups were quite fashionable."
                    The bowed instruments to be found included the "crowd, rebec, fiddle, and
                    viol." This last was adopted into the courts during the reign of James V.
                    The common woodwinds, as mentioned before, were recorder (a beaked flute),
                    the quhissel (a Swiss fife), and the shawm. There were a variety of bagpipes
                    being played, some with a bladder and a reed, some including a chanter and
                    drone, and some with two drones. A "piper" at this time referred to a player
                    of the shawm as well as the bagpipes.
                    "Martial instruments commonly used were bugles, trumps, trumpets,
                    clarions, horns, and cornets. For percussion the tabor drum was common, as
                    well as the _tympane_ or kettledrum, bells, cymbals, _ribupe_ or _rivupe_,
                    and the Jaw Harp, which is also called a trump."

                    > I also have a name question. My maiden name is McCollum. I've gotten
                    > conflicting reports on its origins. My father and aunt both tell me it is
                    > Scottish, and that there ancestors came to the US during a famine...and
                    > settled originally in North Carolina. Do youhave any info on this? Not
                    > necessarily on NC...but on the McCollum's? Scottish? or...as I've also
                    > been told...Irish?

                    Ask and ye shall recieve. ;-) McCollum seems to come from the same roots as
                    Malcolm, which Black asserts comes from the Early Gaelic _Mael Coluimb_ or
                    "devotee of Columba." Later Gaelic is _Moal Chalium_. The name is early
                    established as a common given name in Scotland. Four kings bore the name.
                    the eraliest known Scottish charter c. 1094, lists a Malcolumb as a witness.
                    Five persons of the name are listed in the _Book of the Deer_.

                    Black lists several different spellings of the name for different periods.
                    He does mention that the names Malcolm or Callum were still given as
                    Maolchaluim as late as the seventeenth century. He says that the name as a
                    surname is relatively modern. John Malcum was a baker in Perth in 1545.
                    Makime, 1597.

                    Aye,
                    Eogan Og
                    (award winning, professional trump player)

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                  • Mark and Angel
                    Greetings to everyone!! I thought I d share a wonderful book I found and purchased recently... The Celtic Quest in art and literature ...An Anthology from
                    Message 9 of 13 , Apr 19, 1999
                      Greetings to everyone!!
                      I thought I'd share a wonderful book I found and purchased recently...
                      The Celtic Quest in art and literature
                      ...An Anthology from Merlin to Van Morrison
                      editor is Jane Lahr
                      This is an absolutely beautiful book. It is filled with beautiful artwork,
                      poetry and stories of the celtic peoples. It is one book you'd be proud to
                      display...but also to read and share with others.
                      I sw the book at Barnes and Nobles....it sells for $50. But I ordered it
                      from Amazon.com...for $35 plus $3.95 shipping, and it only took 3 business
                      days to get to me!!
                      That wasn't plug necessarily for Amazon.com...but...*smile*....I figured
                      everyone prefers to save a $ whenever they can.

                      In service to Trimaris and to the shire of Castlemere
                      Sorsha inghean Léod




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                    • Sharon L. Krossa
                      ... My .sig which seems to be being stripped off my postings somewhere along the line. Here are the addresses: Medieval Scotland Web Site (including
                      Message 10 of 13 , Apr 20, 1999
                        At 5:11 PM -0700 4/19/99, Sharon L. Krossa wrote:
                        >For period purposes, it doesn't much matter -- at least in Scotland.
                        >Scottish Gaels don't seem to have used fixed inherited surnames in Gaelic.
                        >Rather, they used bynames specific to the individual. See the article
                        >"Quick and Easy Gaelic Bynames", which can be found at the various websites
                        >listed in my .sig.
                        >
                        >Eafric
                        >Sharon L. Krossa, krossa@...

                        My .sig which seems to be being stripped off my postings somewhere along
                        the line. Here are the addresses:

                        Medieval Scotland Web Site (including information on names & clothing):
                        http://www.stanford.edu/~skrossa/medievalscotland/
                        Other names websites:
                        Medieval Naming Guides - http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/
                        Academy of S. Gabriel - http://www.us.itd.umich.edu/~ximenez/s.gabriel/

                        Affrick
                        Sharon L. Krossa, krossa@...

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                      • nickolas kaugon
                        so am i subscribed now? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jan 8, 2000
                          so am i subscribed now?
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                        • nickolas kaugon
                          caimar a tha sibh, s mise conoran clairsair. how are ya ll, i m conoran clairsair. so i m into scottish culture in full life and the sca. i just recently got
                          Message 12 of 13 , Jan 8, 2000
                            caimar a tha sibh, 's mise conoran clairsair.

                            how are ya'll, i'm conoran clairsair.

                            so i'm into scottish culture in full life and the sca.
                            i just recently got copies of the skeene manuscript
                            and the dean of lismore's book. any others out there
                            into poetry and music of the gael--and even the
                            lowlanders.

                            as i play celtic music and most of it is late period i
                            figure i'm a late period harper(one of my instruments)
                            who is living before the fall of the lords of the
                            isles so there was still a harpers college and
                            patronage and with a treatch bagpies--which i am
                            learning. so i'm about 1485. i'm from skye but my
                            mother is irish so i can explain my repotoite being at
                            least as much irish as scottish. at the time there
                            wasn't much difference anyway.

                            so the introduction to the dean of lismore's book says
                            that there were feine from the welsh, south scottsd
                            and scotts gaels as well as ireland and suggestes that
                            the institution was a pre gaelic one dating to the old
                            cruithne culture. the latter was likely brythonic, but
                            any opinions out there. this nicely explains the
                            widespread feine poems in wales and scotland as well
                            as ireland. however who were the cruithne?

                            picts of pre indoeuropean origon, brythonic picts,
                            other brythons, or a branch of early gaels. they turn
                            up constantly in irish histories as having a distinct
                            kingdom in ulster untill at least 1200, and having
                            distinctive laws such as matrelineal inheritance.
                            skeene says they are the tuathe de dannaan who were
                            not completely wiped out by the sons of milo, so any opinions?
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                          • EoganOg@aol.com
                            How nice it is to get someone so musically inclined on the list. I am a singer of Scots songs, and a student of the bagpipe, and my lady is learning the harp.
                            Message 13 of 13 , Jan 9, 2000
                              How nice it is to get someone so musically inclined on the list. I am a
                              singer of Scots songs, and a student of the bagpipe, and my lady is learning
                              the harp. I don't think I can address any of the questions you pose, but
                              hopefully some of our fine members will and I heartily look forward to the
                              discussion.
                              Aye,
                              Eogan

                              ---------------------------------------------------
                              Tighearn Eoghan Og mac Labhrainn, CP
                              http://www.albanach.homepage.com/eogan.html
                              Sangster of Scotland and Atlantia
                              Chronicler of the Militant Society of Bards
                              Checky Or & Vert, two lions combattant, tails knowed, in base a
                              mouse couchant, all within an orle of roundels, Argent.
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                              ALBANACH Egroup (a discussion group for things Scottish 503-1603AD)
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