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Armor

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  • Scott Johnson
    Greetings to the List, I am in search of Documentation on the Armor of a Scots Border Reiver/Soldier in the time period of 1500-1600. I am also looking for
    Message 1 of 9 , Dec 11, 2003
      Greetings to the List,
      I am in search of Documentation on the Armor of a Scots Border
      Reiver/Soldier in the time period of 1500-1600. I am also looking for
      some good Illistrations/Pictoral/Museum evidence. Can anyone out
      there please help? I am trying to get my Kit up to snuff. Thanks,

      Colin Campbell de Leith, G.O.S.H., CoY
      Apprentice to HE Master Armand le Morte, OL
      Gyronny pean and Or, in bend sinister a lion rampant reguardant
      contourny
      and a lion rampant reguardant gules.
    • Jason Gasper
      The most common armor of the time was a Jack-of-plates. This is NOT wisby plate, althought so many SCA armorers seem to insist it is. Instead, it is a
      Message 2 of 9 , Dec 11, 2003
        The most common armor of the time was a Jack-of-plates. This is NOT
        wisby plate, althought so many SCA armorers seem to insist it is.
        Instead, it is a two-layered doublet with small squares (or plates) of
        steel woven between the layers. I'll try to get some references for it
        up soon.

        Jason Gasper
        SCAka Robert McKynnon

        --- Scott Johnson <midevalscot@...> wrote:
        > Greetings to the List,
        > I am in search of Documentation on the Armor of a Scots Border
        > Reiver/Soldier in the time period of 1500-1600. I am also looking for
        >
        > some good Illistrations/Pictoral/Museum evidence. Can anyone out
        > there please help? I am trying to get my Kit up to snuff. Thanks,
        >
        > Colin Campbell de Leith, G.O.S.H., CoY
        > Apprentice to HE Master Armand le Morte, OL
        > Gyronny pean and Or, in bend sinister a lion rampant reguardant
        > contourny
        > and a lion rampant reguardant gules.
        >
        >


        =====
        "Let me tell you something about the theatre business. The natural
        condition is one of insurmountable obstacles on the way to imminent
        disaster"
        "So, what do we do?"
        "Nothing. Strangely enough, it all comes out right"
        "How?"
        "I don't know. It'a mystery."
        - Shakespeare in Love
      • Nancy Carr Zupanic
        Greetings! My persona is early 14th century Scottish Gaelic. I m starting to work on my armor, and want to get as close to what my persona would use as
        Message 3 of 9 , Mar 26, 2007
          Greetings!

          My persona is early 14th century Scottish Gaelic. I'm starting to work on
          my armor, and want to get as close to what my persona would use as possible.
          Okay, I know that isn't compatible with SCA armoring standards, but I gotta
          try. I understand that I would wear a padded aketon, and a pot helm. I'm
          ordering a helm that is a dome top with sides riveted on, to meet armoring
          standards. Just a pretty standard helm, really. I've read also that my
          persona would have fought with a poleaxe (which happens to be my favorite
          weapon) or a glaive.

          Any advice would be very welcome.

          Doireann
        • Julie Stackable
          ... work on ... possible. ... I gotta ... helm. I m ... armoring ... that my ... favorite ... Dear Doireann, You don t really specify which thing you are
          Message 4 of 9 , Mar 27, 2007
            --- In albanach@yahoogroups.com, "Nancy Carr Zupanic"
            <bear_necessities@...> wrote:
            >
            > Greetings!
            >
            > My persona is early 14th century Scottish Gaelic. I'm starting to
            work on
            > my armor, and want to get as close to what my persona would use as
            possible.
            > Okay, I know that isn't compatible with SCA armoring standards, but
            I gotta
            > try. I understand that I would wear a padded aketon, and a pot
            helm. I'm
            > ordering a helm that is a dome top with sides riveted on, to meet
            armoring
            > standards. Just a pretty standard helm, really. I've read also
            that my
            > persona would have fought with a poleaxe (which happens to be my
            favorite
            > weapon) or a glaive.
            >
            > Any advice would be very welcome.
            >
            > Doireann

            Dear Doireann,
            You don't really specify which thing you are worried won't meet SCA
            armoring standards. Are you talking about the aketon or the pot helm?

            Are you looking for armor advice or clothing or persona? The list has
            been pretty darn quiet lately, but I always suggest to be as specific
            as you can when asking for help . . . .

            So what reading are you doing that's telling you you should fight
            with a poleaxe or glaive (just curiosity - not argument) - do you
            mean as a female fighter, as a Scot or what?

            Curious,
            Margaret Hepburn
          • Nancy Carr Zupanic
            Margaret wrote: You don t really specify which thing you are worried won t meet SCA armoring standards. Are you talking about the aketon or the pot helm? ***
            Message 5 of 9 , Mar 27, 2007
              Margaret wrote:
              You don't really specify which thing you are worried won't meet SCA
              armoring standards. Are you talking about the aketon or the pot helm?

              *** Sorry, I'll try that again!

              *** The question of what armor a Highlander would wear was asked on the
              Albanach list long ago (I *think* it was the Albanach list!) - I don't
              remember details, such as time period, sorry, but I think it was about the
              same period as my persona (14th century) because the answer sort of stuck in
              my head. The answer was that they didn't wear armor other than an aketon
              and a pot helm. To meet armoring standards, I'd have to wear more than just
              the aketon and pot helm of course, so I'm looking for advice on what kind of
              armor to wear that wouldn't put me too too far out of persona. For
              instance, when they did start wearing hard body armor in the Highlands (if
              ever), what kind did they wear?

              Are you looking for armor advice or clothing or persona? The list has
              been pretty darn quiet lately, but I always suggest to be as specific
              as you can when asking for help . . . .

              *** Definitely armor advice for my persona.

              So what reading are you doing that's telling you you should fight
              with a poleaxe or glaive (just curiosity - not argument) - do you
              mean as a female fighter, as a Scot or what?

              *** I took a poleaxe class and really enjoyed it. The teacher did tell us
              that it is a really good weapon for a woman. I decided then that, once I
              start fighting, I'd like to fight with a poleaxe. Then, last night I was
              visiting the website of a Scottish re-enactment group -
              http://www.gaddgedlar.com/ - where they stated that a Highland Cateran would
              use the following weapons: Spears, Glaives, Hand-axes, Bows, Daggers. I
              either misread something or read about poleaxes somewhere else in my
              internet travels. But, I was happy to read that, as a Highland Scottish
              persona, I would fight with a polearm of some type. So, I could fight with
              my weapon of choice without taking too much liberty with my persona.

              *** This particular re-enactment group requests participants to wear their
              extra armor beneath the aketon, which I suppose is an option for me, but I'd
              like to know what other options there might be.

              *** Did I do better this time? <G>

              Doireann

              *** Did I
            • Julie Stackable
              ... on the ... don t ... about the ... stuck in ... aketon ... than just ... what kind of ... For ... Highlands (if ... Good morning! You can do what a lot of
              Message 6 of 9 , Mar 28, 2007
                --- In albanach@yahoogroups.com, "Nancy Carr Zupanic"
                <bear_necessities@...> wrote:
                >
                > *** The question of what armor a Highlander would wear was asked
                on the
                > Albanach list long ago (I *think* it was the Albanach list!) - I
                don't
                > remember details, such as time period, sorry, but I think it was
                about the
                > same period as my persona (14th century) because the answer sort of
                stuck in
                > my head. The answer was that they didn't wear armor other than an
                aketon
                > and a pot helm. To meet armoring standards, I'd have to wear more
                than just
                > the aketon and pot helm of course, so I'm looking for advice on
                what kind of
                > armor to wear that wouldn't put me too too far out of persona.
                For
                > instance, when they did start wearing hard body armor in the
                Highlands (if
                > ever), what kind did they wear?

                Good morning! You can do what a lot of SCA fighters do for personas
                that normally wouldn't have worn a lot of body armor - use the aketon
                to cover up whatever you are wearing. My husband did that for a lot
                of years - especially when he still had the Kydex (sp?) stuff. He had
                a heavy padded gambeson that went over the non-period looking stuff.

                I will have to go back through some of my resources to answer this
                more authoritatively, but if I am remembering correctly, Highlanders
                did not wear much in the way of hard armor. They were rarely involved
                in the type of 'soldier' warfare that necessitated it. Other
                Highlanders weren't hauling around cannon and guns when they were
                fighting, so there wasn't as much need for it. I've got a couple of
                books on Scottish warfare, let me look through & see if I can find
                any decent resources to better answer your question, but it sounds as
                if you are going in the right direction to me. Most of the graveslabs
                from the era just show the aketon, a helm and sword.

                > *** Definitely armor advice for my persona.

                Hopefully someone more knowledgable than I on this era will chime in.
                We do 1570's lowlands, so it's a completely different animal from
                what you are looking at.

                > *** I took a poleaxe class and really enjoyed it. The teacher did
                tell us
                > that it is a really good weapon for a woman. I decided then that,
                once I
                > start fighting, I'd like to fight with a poleaxe. Then, last night
                I was
                > visiting the website of a Scottish re-enactment group -
                > http://www.gaddgedlar.com/ - where they stated that a Highland
                Cateran would
                > use the following weapons: Spears, Glaives, Hand-axes, Bows,
                Daggers. I
                > either misread something or read about poleaxes somewhere else in
                my
                > internet travels. But, I was happy to read that, as a Highland
                Scottish
                > persona, I would fight with a polearm of some type. So, I could
                fight with
                > my weapon of choice without taking too much liberty with my persona.
                >

                I will only say use Gaddgedlar with caution. They've got good
                information mixed in with not so good information and for some
                reason, don't like to provide any resources for things they've said
                on their list. I've emailed repeatedly asking for sources. They've
                got some things on there that I think would be cool to do, but I am
                unsure what documentation they are using for some things.

                > *** This particular re-enactment group requests participants to
                wear their
                > extra armor beneath the aketon, which I suppose is an option for
                me, but I'd
                > like to know what other options there might be.

                Again, I will look at what I've got & see if I have any better
                resources for you other than 'put it under your aketon'.

                > *** Did I do better this time? <G>

                Yup and good luck. I'm always all for helping someone be more
                authentic. Scotland can be a frustrating persona if you are trying to
                do it right. I've run into a lot of brick walls in the last few years
                with clothing and food, and it can be a slow slog. And when I go to
                an event in what I think are the most period clothes I can put
                together - handsewn linen and wool and will *still* get asked why I'm
                not wearing plaid.....

                More soon,
                Margaret
              • Nancy Carr Zupanic
                Margaret wrote: Good morning! You can do what a lot of SCA fighters do for personas that normally wouldn t have worn a lot of body armor - use the aketon to
                Message 7 of 9 , Mar 29, 2007
                  Margaret wrote:
                  Good morning! You can do what a lot of SCA fighters do for personas
                  that normally wouldn't have worn a lot of body armor - use the aketon
                  to cover up whatever you are wearing. My husband did that for a lot
                  of years - especially when he still had the Kydex (sp?) stuff. He had
                  a heavy padded gambeson that went over the non-period looking stuff.

                  *** That's what I was afraid of. Thank you very much for that. Now I just
                  have to figure out what kind of armor might be comfy with my build, and
                  under my aketon.

                  I will have to go back through some of my resources to answer this
                  more authoritatively, but if I am remembering correctly, Highlanders
                  did not wear much in the way of hard armor. They were rarely involved
                  in the type of 'soldier' warfare that necessitated it. Other
                  Highlanders weren't hauling around cannon and guns when they were
                  fighting, so there wasn't as much need for it. I've got a couple of
                  books on Scottish warfare, let me look through & see if I can find
                  any decent resources to better answer your question, but it sounds as
                  if you are going in the right direction to me. Most of the graveslabs
                  from the era just show the aketon, a helm and sword.

                  *** Thank you, that would be wonderful!

                  > *** Definitely armor advice for my persona.

                  I will only say use Gaddgedlar with caution. They've got good
                  information mixed in with not so good information and for some
                  reason, don't like to provide any resources for things they've said
                  on their list. I've emailed repeatedly asking for sources. They've
                  got some things on there that I think would be cool to do, but I am
                  unsure what documentation they are using for some things.

                  *** Thanks for that - it's good to know!

                  Yup and good luck. I'm always all for helping someone be more
                  authentic. Scotland can be a frustrating persona if you are trying to
                  do it right. I've run into a lot of brick walls in the last few years
                  with clothing and food, and it can be a slow slog. And when I go to
                  an event in what I think are the most period clothes I can put
                  together - handsewn linen and wool and will *still* get asked why I'm
                  not wearing plaid.....

                  *** Heh heh. I've been asked, while wearing my tunic, why I'm not wearing
                  a leine.

                  Thank you!
                  Doireann
                • Julie Stackable
                  ... involved ... as ... graveslabs ... Doireann, I m afraid I m not going to be much help to you re that period s armor. I ve gone back through the source
                  Message 8 of 9 , Apr 3 9:49 AM
                    --- In albanach@yahoogroups.com, "Nancy Carr Zupanic"
                    <bear_necessities@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Margaret wrote:
                    > I will have to go back through some of my resources to answer this
                    > more authoritatively, but if I am remembering correctly, Highlanders
                    > did not wear much in the way of hard armor. They were rarely
                    involved
                    > in the type of 'soldier' warfare that necessitated it. Other
                    > Highlanders weren't hauling around cannon and guns when they were
                    > fighting, so there wasn't as much need for it. I've got a couple of
                    > books on Scottish warfare, let me look through & see if I can find
                    > any decent resources to better answer your question, but it sounds
                    as
                    > if you are going in the right direction to me. Most of the
                    graveslabs
                    > from the era just show the aketon, a helm and sword.

                    Doireann,
                    I'm afraid I'm not going to be much help to you re that period's
                    armor. I've gone back through the source material I have and most of
                    it is just too out of period for you, almost all of our stuff is
                    later period, the earliest things I have are 1520's and you
                    specifically said 14th century. I'm hoping someone more knowledgable
                    on the subject that I will chime in. If I come across anything
                    helpful, I will post it.

                    Margaret
                  • Nancy Carr Zupanic
                    Margaret wrote: I m afraid I m not going to be much help to you re that period s armor. I ve gone back through the source material I have and most of it is
                    Message 9 of 9 , Apr 3 9:02 PM
                      Margaret wrote:
                      I'm afraid I'm not going to be much help to you re that period's
                      armor. I've gone back through the source material I have and most of
                      it is just too out of period for you, almost all of our stuff is
                      later period, the earliest things I have are 1520's and you
                      specifically said 14th century.
                      ******************

                      Regardless, thank you so much for spending the time to check - that was
                      really kind of you!

                      Doireann
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