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Re: [albanach] fighting garb, was: simplicity 8855

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  • Nancy Zupanic
    ... a ... (not ... I happily have quite a bit of documentation of women fighters, in all capacities, thanks to a class on the subject. It is believed that
    Message 1 of 11 , Dec 3, 2003
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      > Point #1: why cant you ear a skirt/dress.... Ive seen many a lady fight in
      a
      > skirt. and despite popular belief there were women who fenced in period
      (not
      > many but there were some)

      I happily have quite a bit of documentation of women fighters, in all
      capacities, thanks to a class on the subject. It is believed that most
      women fought in pants, though rapier seems to have been taught to young
      ladies in dresses. I like to wear pants, though, because I'm a bit clumsy
      and wearing a dress does require more grace than I possess <g>.

      > Point #2 something that I do is I have a short sleeve "under armor"
      fencing
      > jacket (I got it from Triplette but im sure others sell it). you put the
      > fencing jacket on and then the garb goes over it so you have total levity
      in
      > garb..... just be careful in warm climates as it wont be easy to pop your
      armor. or
      > you could use a large size bodice armor with a t-shirt with re-enforced
      under
      > arms.

      Thank you for this advice. I've considered it in the past, and feel that I
      would get overheated. Though I probably should actually look at one,
      shouldn't I? I do the reinforced t-shirt thing right now (which I also find
      too hot), and will build the gussets right into my future fight garb.

      You have me thinking now of warmer weather and of melees . . .

      Morel, who loves a good melee
    • Sharon L. Krossa
      ... Can you post the references for women being taught rapier, both in dresses and in male clothing, if any? Where was this done (cause we would need to know
      Message 2 of 11 , Dec 3, 2003
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        At 5:43 AM -0800 12/3/03, Nancy Zupanic wrote:
        > > Point #1: why cant you ear a skirt/dress.... Ive seen many a lady fight in
        >a
        > > skirt. and despite popular belief there were women who fenced in period
        >(not
        > > many but there were some)
        >
        >I happily have quite a bit of documentation of women fighters, in all
        >capacities, thanks to a class on the subject. It is believed that most
        >women fought in pants, though rapier seems to have been taught to young
        >ladies in dresses. I like to wear pants, though, because I'm a bit clumsy
        >and wearing a dress does require more grace than I possess <g>.

        Can you post the references for women being taught rapier, both in
        dresses and in male clothing, if any? Where was this done (cause we
        would need to know this to know what kind of dresses/male clothing
        ;-).

        Sharon, ska Africa
        --
        Sharon L. Krossa, skrossa-ml@...
      • scotsfencer@aol.com
        In a message dated 12/3/2003 9:01:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... hmmm i wonder if that would be a D/S?? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        Message 3 of 11 , Dec 4, 2003
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          In a message dated 12/3/2003 9:01:48 AM Eastern Standard Time,
          bearpaws@... writes:

          > I like to wear pants, though, because I'm a bit clumsy
          > and wearing a dress does require more grace than I possess <g>.

          hmmm i wonder if that would be a D/S??


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Nancy Zupanic
          ... Of course not! In which case I shouldn t have opened my mouth, sorry. I ve written the lady who taught the class about women fighters in period, as she
          Message 4 of 11 , Dec 4, 2003
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            > Can you post the references for women being taught rapier, both in
            > dresses and in male clothing, if any? Where was this done (cause we
            > would need to know this to know what kind of dresses/male clothing

            Of course not! In which case I shouldn't have opened my mouth, sorry. I've
            written the lady who taught the class about women fighters in period, as she
            was going to put the handout on a website. If she has done so, I'll pass on
            the URL. I thought I had the handout, but I don't, which is why she was
            putting the handout on a website. The handout included a couple of stories
            of women who fought disguised as men and, having beaten their opponents,
            bared their bosoms to show the men that they had been beaten by a woman.
            There are also stories of women who fought openly as women in this handout.

            A few years back, someone posted a diary entry of a girl who's father was
            making her take fencing lessons on an SCA women's fighting list. At around
            that time, someone posted the URL for a woodcut of two women dueling in the
            woods, witnessed only by other women, as they were wearing only skirts, and
            were bare-chested. Unfortunately, I don't have any of these anymore, having
            had my computer reformatted two years ago, and a request for help turned up
            nothing but vague memories.

            So, like I said, I shouldn't have opened my mouth, and I apologize.

            Muirgheal
          • Ed McGrath
            Muirgheal Bare breasted women fighting in the woods! Now that is an event that will attract non SCA folk like me self! ;-) ... Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up
            Message 5 of 11 , Dec 5, 2003
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              Muirgheal


              Bare breasted women fighting in the woods! Now that is an event that will attract non SCA folk like me self! ;-)





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            • Ed McGrath
              Muirgheal Bare breasted women fighting in the woods! Now that is an event that will attract non SCA folk like me self! ;-) ... Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up
              Message 6 of 11 , Dec 5, 2003
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                Muirgheal


                Bare breasted women fighting in the woods! Now that is an event that will attract non SCA folk like me self! ;-)






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              • mcgrath94596
                On this topic, I do have an SCA question. I am not a member, so I ask for patience and forgiveness if I am offensive. My interest is historical reenactment.
                Message 7 of 11 , Dec 5, 2003
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                  On this topic, I do have an SCA question. I am not a member, so I
                  ask for patience and forgiveness if I am offensive. My interest is
                  historical reenactment. Personally, I enjoy the research and
                  reproducing things like they were first produced. My question or
                  should I say, observation is, when one joins the SCA they have to
                  have their historic names and personas approved? If my observations
                  are correct, one MUST have a historically correct name and persona
                  BUT they can wear historically incorrect clothing?


                  Thanks

                  Ed
                • Sharon L. Krossa
                  ... Actually, it is okay to say you ve been told something you ve been told -- just when opening your mouth to say so, keep it open a little longer to add But
                  Message 8 of 11 , Dec 5, 2003
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                    At 6:18 PM -0800 12/4/03, Nancy Zupanic wrote:
                    > > Can you post the references for women being taught rapier, both in
                    > > dresses and in male clothing, if any? Where was this done (cause we
                    > > would need to know this to know what kind of dresses/male clothing
                    >
                    >Of course not! In which case I shouldn't have opened my mouth, sorry. I've
                    >written the lady who taught the class about women fighters in period, as she
                    >was going to put the handout on a website. If she has done so, I'll pass on
                    >the URL. I thought I had the handout, but I don't, which is why she was
                    >putting the handout on a website. The handout included a couple of stories
                    >of women who fought disguised as men and, having beaten their opponents,
                    >bared their bosoms to show the men that they had been beaten by a woman.
                    >There are also stories of women who fought openly as women in this handout.
                    >
                    >A few years back, someone posted a diary entry of a girl who's father was
                    >making her take fencing lessons on an SCA women's fighting list. At around
                    >that time, someone posted the URL for a woodcut of two women dueling in the
                    >woods, witnessed only by other women, as they were wearing only skirts, and
                    >were bare-chested. Unfortunately, I don't have any of these anymore, having
                    >had my computer reformatted two years ago, and a request for help turned up
                    >nothing but vague memories.
                    >
                    >So, like I said, I shouldn't have opened my mouth, and I apologize.

                    Actually, it is okay to say you've been told something you've been
                    told -- just when opening your mouth to say so, keep it open a little
                    longer to add "But unfortunately I don't have any solid references
                    for this..." Even better, add something like what you wrote above (or
                    at least be prepared to add something like it if someone asks).

                    We're human and we don't always take notes (or we lose them -- sorry
                    about that!). So although sometimes what we remember being told but
                    can't document ourselves turns out not to be reliable information,
                    other times it turns out to be a good research lead that does have
                    solid documentation at the end of the trail. (Which anything turns
                    out to be depends some on who told us, some on who told them, and
                    some on how good our memory of what we were told is ;-)

                    Regarding the particular leads above, I'd be very interested in
                    fuller details should people find them. The context for some will
                    make a great deal of difference. For example, the woodcut of two
                    women duelling in the woods wearing only skirts -- what was the
                    context of that? What book or pamphlet did it appear in? What was
                    that book or pamphlet about? It will make a big difference whether it
                    was a story about ancient Amazon women or a story about something
                    that supposedly happened with real women not long before the woodcut
                    was made. (On the Rialto recently there was a discussion of whether
                    medieval women wore underpants and it was pointed out that so far all
                    known woodcuts showing women wearing underpants were in the context
                    of discussions and illustrations of usurpation by women of men's
                    prerogatives -- so far from evidence that women wore underpants, they
                    are evidence that women didn't. Context is important!)

                    Sharon
                    --
                    Sharon L. Krossa, skrossa-ml@...
                  • Matthew A. C. Newsome
                    Good question, and I can see how some of this can get quite confusing for someone not familiar with the SCA. All that is required for participation at an SCA
                    Message 9 of 11 , Dec 5, 2003
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                      Good question, and I can see how some of this can get quite confusing for
                      someone not familiar with the SCA.

                      All that is required for participation at an SCA event is an attempt at
                      pre-1600 clothing. As someone here recently pointed out, it doesn't need to
                      be a successful attempt, just an honest attempt.

                      You don't have to have a persona story. You don't have to have a name. You
                      just have to make an attempt at period garb.

                      If you decide you like the SCA and want to continue coming to events, more
                      likely that not you'll want to focus on a particular era or place, and
                      develop a persona around that, which at the minimum will involve creating a
                      name and some clothing that would be appropriate.

                      You are asked (but not required) to have your name registered with the SCA
                      College of Heralds. This helps us keep track of who is who. Part of the
                      job of SCA heralds is to help people research names that would be proper and
                      correct to the period of their interest. Some are better at this than
                      others, and people have their specialties, of course. In general, the level
                      of accuracy is much higher now than it was in the SCA 20 or 30 years ago.

                      Most people who have been active in the SCA for any length of time have a
                      registered name. And if you get sick of the one you have, you can always
                      register a new one. But it is not a requirement to participate.

                      Aye,
                      Eogan

                      Get the new book, Early Highland Dress
                      at http://albanach.org

                      Get the new book, Early Highland Dress
                      at http://albanach.org
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "mcgrath94596" <mcgrath94596@...>
                      To: <albanach@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 6:12 PM
                      Subject: [albanach] Re: fighting garb, was: simplicity 8855


                      > On this topic, I do have an SCA question. I am not a member, so I
                      > ask for patience and forgiveness if I am offensive. My interest is
                      > historical reenactment. Personally, I enjoy the research and
                      > reproducing things like they were first produced. My question or
                      > should I say, observation is, when one joins the SCA they have to
                      > have their historic names and personas approved? If my observations
                      > are correct, one MUST have a historically correct name and persona
                      > BUT they can wear historically incorrect clothing?
                      >
                      >
                      > Thanks
                      >
                      > Ed
                      >
                      >
                      >
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                    • Muirghein
                      ... One s name must meet the Rules for Submission (i.e. be reasonably accurate, with a weirdness here and there allowed under some circumstances) in order to
                      Message 10 of 11 , Dec 5, 2003
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                        At 03:12 PM 12/5/03, Ed wrote:
                        >On this topic, I do have an SCA question. I am not a member, so I
                        >ask for patience and forgiveness if I am offensive. My interest is
                        >historical reenactment. Personally, I enjoy the research and
                        >reproducing things like they were first produced. My question or
                        >should I say, observation is, when one joins the SCA they have to
                        >have their historic names and personas approved? If my observations
                        >are correct, one MUST have a historically correct name and persona
                        >BUT they can wear historically incorrect clothing?

                        One's name must meet the "Rules for Submission" (i.e. be reasonably
                        accurate, with a weirdness here and there allowed under some circumstances)
                        in order to _register_ one's name. A registered name is certainly not
                        required to play. In many -- perhaps even most -- kingdoms, it's not
                        required to receive awards. In Caid, the only thing I can think of that
                        requires that a name and armory be at least in submission is entering crown
                        lists as either a fighter or a consort.

                        You can also play without being a paying member, but that has various
                        issues in terms of holding office, non-member surcharge on event fees, etc.
                        A registered name is not required to be a paying member, and neither is
                        being a paid member required to register a name :-).

                        Hopefully I've addressed your question without further muddying the waters *g*.

                        In Service,
                        Baintighearna Muirghein Dhaire Faoilciarach /|\
                        Dreiburgen Web Minister http://www.dreiburgen.org
                        (any posts to e-mail lists do not reflect official
                        opinions unless specifically stated otherwise)
                      • SiegfriedMcClure@aol.com
                        As a long term SCA member I can give you my UN-official take on this. I called myself Siegfried McClure for years without registering anything. I wore
                        Message 11 of 11 , Dec 6, 2003
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                          As a long term SCA member I can give you my UN-official take on this.

                          I called myself Siegfried McClure for years without registering anything. I
                          wore ren-fair clothes (tunic and drawstring pants with moccasin boots) to
                          events. If anyone ever thought twice a bout it, they never complained to me. My
                          persona is self defined as "scottish-ish" with no set time frame. As time
                          went on, however, I felt the desire to improve my garb, and register my name (it
                          is registerable, even though it took a while to convince Laurel about it).
                          The only pressure to change came from myself. IMHO, make an effort to wear
                          period clothes, refer to yourself by your real name, and have fun. Let the
                          persona come later when you know you've found a group of people you want to spend
                          time with.

                          By the way, all people are welcome to come to most events. Contact the
                          Chatelaine for your local group and express your interest. I'm sure they will help
                          you.


                          Siegfried McClure
                          Web Minister for the Incipient Canton of Sudentur, in the Kingdom of Atlantia
                          http://sudentur.atlantia.sca.org


                          In a message dated 12/5/2003 6:18:38 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                          mcgrath94596@... writes:


                          > On this topic, I do have an SCA question. I am not a member, so I
                          > ask for patience and forgiveness if I am offensive. My interest is
                          > historical reenactment. Personally, I enjoy the research and
                          > reproducing things like they were first produced. My question or
                          > should I say, observation is, when one joins the SCA they have to
                          > have their historic names and personas approved? If my observations
                          > are correct, one MUST have a historically correct name and persona
                          > BUT they can wear historically incorrect clothing?
                          >
                          >
                          > Thanks
                          >
                          > Ed
                          >
                          >




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