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Re: [albanach] Digest Number 570

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  • Michael England
    Thanks Diana, It helps a little, looks like I ll have to hit the border history books. Ranulf ... From: To:
    Message 1 of 6 , Nov 1, 2003
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      Thanks Diana,
      It helps a little, looks like I'll have to hit the border history books.
      Ranulf
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: <albanach@yahoogroups.com>
      To: <albanach@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 4:32 PM
      Subject: [albanach] Digest Number 570


      >
      > This is Albanach, a group devoted to the study and re-enactment of
      > Scotland c. 503-1603 AD. Post messages to albanach@egroups.com. Alter
      > your account or view the archives at www.egroups.com/list/albanach
      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      >
      > There are 2 messages in this issue.
      >
      > Topics in this digest:
      >
      > 1. music history
      > From: "Michael England" <england@...>
      > 2. Lock the door, Lariston
      > From: Diana Cosby <wulfe6@...>
      >
      >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      > Message: 1
      > Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 11:58:50 -0500
      > From: "Michael England" <england@...>
      > Subject: music history
      >
      > Does anybody on the list know the history behind the song "Lock the Door
      Lariston"? It appears to be a Border Ballad and if it's based on a real
      incident I would like to know what one.
      >
      > Thanks,
      > Ranulf
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      > Message: 2
      > Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 12:00:13 -0500
      > From: Diana Cosby <wulfe6@...>
      > Subject: Lock the door, Lariston
      >
      > Michael England wrote: Does anybody on the list know the history behind
      > the song "Lock the Door Lariston"? It appears to be a Border Ballad and
      > if it's based on a real incident I would like to know what one.
      >
      > ~Ranulf, the only thing I could find was this note:
      >
      >
      > The dour, grim fighting which took place almost constantly in the
      > Scottish Borders for centuries is recalled in this song by the
      > Borders poet James Hogg (also known as the "Ettrick Shepherd").
      > Many of the surnames which appear in this song were well known in
      > the Borders.
      >
      > http://www.rampantscotland.com/songs/blsongs_lariston.htm
      >
      > Hope this helps.
      > Diana
      >
      > --
      > wulfe6@...
      > VRW Newsletter Editor
      > http://members.cox.net/wulfe6/
      > "Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." -
      Winston Churchill
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
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    • Sharon L. Krossa
      ... Does it really, or does it capture the way those earlier times were Romanticized centuries later? (And I use Romanticized -- with a capital R -- advisedly
      Message 2 of 6 , Nov 2, 2003
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        At 5:33 AM +0000 11/1/03, Lindsay wrote:
        >As far as we know, Lock the Door Lariston is pure fiction made up by
        >James Hogg. It captures the feeling of the time quite well

        Does it really, or does it capture the way those earlier times were
        Romanticized centuries later? (And I use Romanticized -- with a
        capital R -- advisedly as the late 18th century was the start of
        Romanticism ;-) In my experience, poems and songs usually capture the
        feeling of the time they were written rather than the time of their
        subject (often by capturing the feelings about the time of their
        subject held by people of the time they were written...)

        But decide for yourself -- the text of can be seen at
        <http://www.electricscotland.com/si/features/singasang/lariston.htm>.

        Sharon
        --
        Sharon L. Krossa, skrossa-ml@...
      • Muirghein
        At 09:33 PM 10/31/03, Lindsay wrote: ... Does anyone have any commentary pro of con on this site? We don t find many that cover the early 14th c. ... I
        Message 3 of 6 , Nov 7, 2003
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          At 09:33 PM 10/31/03, Lindsay wrote:
          <snip>
          >Another interesting Hogg poem (which does have some form of
          >historical basis) is "The Fray of Elibank" a copy of which can be found
          >through the gaddgedlar site (www.gaddgedlar.com) in the 16th Century
          >Section under border Ballads.

          Does anyone have any commentary pro of con on this site? We don't find many
          that cover the early 14th c.

          One thing I noticed:
          >...the first recorded use of the plaid is 1495, seen on the Western isles
          >by the expedition of James IV. Simple checks were in evidence but not the
          >tartans of later periods.

          I know that _clan_ tartans were later, but were tartan-like weaves really
          not used until the late 1400s? FTR, I'm more interested in Gaelic/Highland
          than Lowland whenever it makes a difference.

          Slan,
          Baintighearna Muirghein Dhaire Faoilciarach /|\
          Dreiburgen Web Minister http://www.dreiburgen.org
          (any posts to e-mail lists do not reflect official
          opinions unless specifically stated otherwise)
        • Matthew A. C. Newsome
          Archeological evidence of tartan cloth in Scotland goes back to the third or fourth century. Aye, Eogan Get the new book, Early Highland Dress at
          Message 4 of 6 , Nov 8, 2003
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            Archeological evidence of tartan cloth in Scotland goes back to the third or
            fourth century.
            Aye,
            Eogan

            Get the new book, Early Highland Dress
            at http://albanach.org
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Muirghein" <wolfestead@...>
            To: <albanach@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 5:08 PM
            Subject: [albanach] Gaddgedlar (was Re: Digest Number 570)


            > At 09:33 PM 10/31/03, Lindsay wrote:
            > <snip>
            > >Another interesting Hogg poem (which does have some form of
            > >historical basis) is "The Fray of Elibank" a copy of which can be found
            > >through the gaddgedlar site (www.gaddgedlar.com) in the 16th Century
            > >Section under border Ballads.
            >
            > Does anyone have any commentary pro of con on this site? We don't find
            many
            > that cover the early 14th c.
            >
            > One thing I noticed:
            > >...the first recorded use of the plaid is 1495, seen on the Western isles
            > >by the expedition of James IV. Simple checks were in evidence but not the
            > >tartans of later periods.
            >
            > I know that _clan_ tartans were later, but were tartan-like weaves really
            > not used until the late 1400s? FTR, I'm more interested in Gaelic/Highland
            > than Lowland whenever it makes a difference.
            >
            > Slan,
            > Baintighearna Muirghein Dhaire Faoilciarach /|\
            > Dreiburgen Web Minister http://www.dreiburgen.org
            > (any posts to e-mail lists do not reflect official
            > opinions unless specifically stated otherwise)
            >
            >
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            >
            > This is Albanach, a group devoted to the study and re-enactment of
            > Scotland c. 503-1603 AD. Post messages to albanach@egroups.com. Alter
            > your account or view the archives at www.egroups.com/list/albanach
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
            >
          • Sharon L. Krossa
            ... I think last time I checked it I determined it was a mixed bag -- some great stuff, some stuff that could be misleading to the unwary (such as a late 18th
            Message 5 of 6 , Nov 8, 2003
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              At 2:08 PM -0800 11/7/03, Muirghein wrote:
              >At 09:33 PM 10/31/03, Lindsay wrote:
              ><snip>
              > >Another interesting Hogg poem (which does have some form of
              > >historical basis) is "The Fray of Elibank" a copy of which can be found
              > >through the gaddgedlar site (www.gaddgedlar.com) in the 16th Century
              > >Section under border Ballads.
              >
              >Does anyone have any commentary pro of con on this site? We don't find many
              >that cover the early 14th c.

              I think last time I checked it I determined it was a mixed bag --
              some great stuff, some stuff that could be misleading to the unwary
              (such as a late 18th century poem accessible by going to the section
              labelled "16th century" ;-), and some downright wrong stuff, too.

              I would say use with caution, but if you are properly cautious (and
              double check their claims), it can be helpful.

              >One thing I noticed:
              > >...the first recorded use of the plaid is 1495, seen on the Western isles
              > >by the expedition of James IV. Simple checks were in evidence but not the
              > >tartans of later periods.
              >
              >I know that _clan_ tartans were later, but were tartan-like weaves really
              >not used until the late 1400s? FTR, I'm more interested in Gaelic/Highland
              >than Lowland whenever it makes a difference.

              Well, one thing to keep in mind is that by "plaid" the website is
              almost certainly referring to a certain kind of garment
              (mantle/shawl), not a certain color pattern (tartan), not least
              because Gaddgedlar -- the re-enactment and living history society
              whose website is http://www.gaddgedlar.com/ -- is located in
              Scotland, so they are more likely to use <plaid> in the historical
              Scots and common modern British sense of a certain kind of garment
              than in the common modern USAmerican sense of a certain color pattern.

              Now, their claim that "the first recorded use of the plaid is 1495"
              may or may not be true, depending on whether they mean something
              actually called a <plaid> or whether they mean any plaid-like garment
              even if called by another term.

              It wouldn't be at all surprising if the first recorded use of the
              word <plaid> was in 1495 -- in fact, that would be earlier (though
              not by much) than what is indicated by the Concise Scots Dictionary
              [CSD] and the Dictionary of the Older Scottish Tongue [DOST -- the
              equivalent of the OED for pre-1700 Scots words]. The CSD seems to
              only date the word to the 16th century, and a quick browse through
              the entry for <plaid> in DOST doesn't turn up any quoted examples
              earlier than the early 16th century. (CSD is based on DOST and DOST,
              like the OED, isn't perfect, so an earlier example wouldn't be
              shocking.)

              I would be more surprised if the first recorded use of wearing a
              plaid-like garment (that is, a multi-colored/tartan mantle/shawl) was
              1495, but I don't have time right now to hunt for earlier
              descriptions of such a garment (worn in either the Highlands or
              Lowlands) to find out.

              Sharon, ska Affrick
              --
              Sharon L. Krossa, skrossa-ml@...
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