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Re: [albanach] Digest Number 570

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  • Lindsay
    Hi! As far as we know, Lock the Door Lariston is pure fiction made up by James Hogg. It captures the feeling of the time quite well and has some good family
    Message 1 of 6 , Oct 31, 2003
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      Hi!

      As far as we know, Lock the Door Lariston is pure fiction made up by
      James Hogg. It captures the feeling of the time quite well and has some
      good family and place names but there is no real historical basis behind
      it. Another interesting Hogg poem (which does have some form of
      historical basis) is "The Fray of Elibank" a copy of which can be found
      through the gaddgedlar site (www.gaddgedlar.com) in the 16th Century
      Section under border Ballads. The legendary sources seem to indicate a
      "Shotgun"/noose wedding. However, the actual marriage contract indicates
      that it was a long negotiated marriage. Who knows!

      Lindsay

      albanach@yahoogroups.com wrote:

      >__________________________________________________
      >________________________________________________________________________
      >
      >Message: 1
      > Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 11:58:50 -0500
      > From: "Michael England" <england@...>
      >Subject: music history
      >
      >Does anybody on the list know the history behind the song "Lock the Door Lariston"? It appears to be a Border Ballad and if it's based on a real incident I would like to know what one.
      >
      >Thanks,
      >Ranulf
      >
      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      >________________________________________________________________________
      >________________________________________________________________________
      >
      >Message: 2
      > Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 12:00:13 -0500
      > From: Diana Cosby <wulfe6@...>
      >Subject: Lock the door, Lariston
      >
      >Michael England wrote: Does anybody on the list know the history behind
      >the song "Lock the Door Lariston"? It appears to be a Border Ballad and
      >if it's based on a real incident I would like to know what one.
      >
      >~Ranulf, the only thing I could find was this note:
      >
      >
      > The dour, grim fighting which took place almost constantly in the
      > Scottish Borders for centuries is recalled in this song by the
      > Borders poet James Hogg (also known as the "Ettrick Shepherd").
      > Many of the surnames which appear in this song were well known in
      > the Borders.
      >
      >http://www.rampantscotland.com/songs/blsongs_lariston.htm
      >
      > Hope this helps.
      >Diana
      >
      >
      >
    • Michael England
      Thanks Diana, It helps a little, looks like I ll have to hit the border history books. Ranulf ... From: To:
      Message 2 of 6 , Nov 1, 2003
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        Thanks Diana,
        It helps a little, looks like I'll have to hit the border history books.
        Ranulf
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: <albanach@yahoogroups.com>
        To: <albanach@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 4:32 PM
        Subject: [albanach] Digest Number 570


        >
        > This is Albanach, a group devoted to the study and re-enactment of
        > Scotland c. 503-1603 AD. Post messages to albanach@egroups.com. Alter
        > your account or view the archives at www.egroups.com/list/albanach
        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        >
        > There are 2 messages in this issue.
        >
        > Topics in this digest:
        >
        > 1. music history
        > From: "Michael England" <england@...>
        > 2. Lock the door, Lariston
        > From: Diana Cosby <wulfe6@...>
        >
        >
        > ________________________________________________________________________
        > ________________________________________________________________________
        >
        > Message: 1
        > Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 11:58:50 -0500
        > From: "Michael England" <england@...>
        > Subject: music history
        >
        > Does anybody on the list know the history behind the song "Lock the Door
        Lariston"? It appears to be a Border Ballad and if it's based on a real
        incident I would like to know what one.
        >
        > Thanks,
        > Ranulf
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        > ________________________________________________________________________
        > ________________________________________________________________________
        >
        > Message: 2
        > Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 12:00:13 -0500
        > From: Diana Cosby <wulfe6@...>
        > Subject: Lock the door, Lariston
        >
        > Michael England wrote: Does anybody on the list know the history behind
        > the song "Lock the Door Lariston"? It appears to be a Border Ballad and
        > if it's based on a real incident I would like to know what one.
        >
        > ~Ranulf, the only thing I could find was this note:
        >
        >
        > The dour, grim fighting which took place almost constantly in the
        > Scottish Borders for centuries is recalled in this song by the
        > Borders poet James Hogg (also known as the "Ettrick Shepherd").
        > Many of the surnames which appear in this song were well known in
        > the Borders.
        >
        > http://www.rampantscotland.com/songs/blsongs_lariston.htm
        >
        > Hope this helps.
        > Diana
        >
        > --
        > wulfe6@...
        > VRW Newsletter Editor
        > http://members.cox.net/wulfe6/
        > "Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." -
        Winston Churchill
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        > ________________________________________________________________________
        > ________________________________________________________________________
        >
        >
        >
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        >
      • Sharon L. Krossa
        ... Does it really, or does it capture the way those earlier times were Romanticized centuries later? (And I use Romanticized -- with a capital R -- advisedly
        Message 3 of 6 , Nov 2, 2003
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          At 5:33 AM +0000 11/1/03, Lindsay wrote:
          >As far as we know, Lock the Door Lariston is pure fiction made up by
          >James Hogg. It captures the feeling of the time quite well

          Does it really, or does it capture the way those earlier times were
          Romanticized centuries later? (And I use Romanticized -- with a
          capital R -- advisedly as the late 18th century was the start of
          Romanticism ;-) In my experience, poems and songs usually capture the
          feeling of the time they were written rather than the time of their
          subject (often by capturing the feelings about the time of their
          subject held by people of the time they were written...)

          But decide for yourself -- the text of can be seen at
          <http://www.electricscotland.com/si/features/singasang/lariston.htm>.

          Sharon
          --
          Sharon L. Krossa, skrossa-ml@...
        • Muirghein
          At 09:33 PM 10/31/03, Lindsay wrote: ... Does anyone have any commentary pro of con on this site? We don t find many that cover the early 14th c. ... I
          Message 4 of 6 , Nov 7, 2003
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            At 09:33 PM 10/31/03, Lindsay wrote:
            <snip>
            >Another interesting Hogg poem (which does have some form of
            >historical basis) is "The Fray of Elibank" a copy of which can be found
            >through the gaddgedlar site (www.gaddgedlar.com) in the 16th Century
            >Section under border Ballads.

            Does anyone have any commentary pro of con on this site? We don't find many
            that cover the early 14th c.

            One thing I noticed:
            >...the first recorded use of the plaid is 1495, seen on the Western isles
            >by the expedition of James IV. Simple checks were in evidence but not the
            >tartans of later periods.

            I know that _clan_ tartans were later, but were tartan-like weaves really
            not used until the late 1400s? FTR, I'm more interested in Gaelic/Highland
            than Lowland whenever it makes a difference.

            Slan,
            Baintighearna Muirghein Dhaire Faoilciarach /|\
            Dreiburgen Web Minister http://www.dreiburgen.org
            (any posts to e-mail lists do not reflect official
            opinions unless specifically stated otherwise)
          • Matthew A. C. Newsome
            Archeological evidence of tartan cloth in Scotland goes back to the third or fourth century. Aye, Eogan Get the new book, Early Highland Dress at
            Message 5 of 6 , Nov 8, 2003
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              Archeological evidence of tartan cloth in Scotland goes back to the third or
              fourth century.
              Aye,
              Eogan

              Get the new book, Early Highland Dress
              at http://albanach.org
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Muirghein" <wolfestead@...>
              To: <albanach@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 5:08 PM
              Subject: [albanach] Gaddgedlar (was Re: Digest Number 570)


              > At 09:33 PM 10/31/03, Lindsay wrote:
              > <snip>
              > >Another interesting Hogg poem (which does have some form of
              > >historical basis) is "The Fray of Elibank" a copy of which can be found
              > >through the gaddgedlar site (www.gaddgedlar.com) in the 16th Century
              > >Section under border Ballads.
              >
              > Does anyone have any commentary pro of con on this site? We don't find
              many
              > that cover the early 14th c.
              >
              > One thing I noticed:
              > >...the first recorded use of the plaid is 1495, seen on the Western isles
              > >by the expedition of James IV. Simple checks were in evidence but not the
              > >tartans of later periods.
              >
              > I know that _clan_ tartans were later, but were tartan-like weaves really
              > not used until the late 1400s? FTR, I'm more interested in Gaelic/Highland
              > than Lowland whenever it makes a difference.
              >
              > Slan,
              > Baintighearna Muirghein Dhaire Faoilciarach /|\
              > Dreiburgen Web Minister http://www.dreiburgen.org
              > (any posts to e-mail lists do not reflect official
              > opinions unless specifically stated otherwise)
              >
              >
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              >
              > This is Albanach, a group devoted to the study and re-enactment of
              > Scotland c. 503-1603 AD. Post messages to albanach@egroups.com. Alter
              > your account or view the archives at www.egroups.com/list/albanach
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
              >
            • Sharon L. Krossa
              ... I think last time I checked it I determined it was a mixed bag -- some great stuff, some stuff that could be misleading to the unwary (such as a late 18th
              Message 6 of 6 , Nov 8, 2003
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                At 2:08 PM -0800 11/7/03, Muirghein wrote:
                >At 09:33 PM 10/31/03, Lindsay wrote:
                ><snip>
                > >Another interesting Hogg poem (which does have some form of
                > >historical basis) is "The Fray of Elibank" a copy of which can be found
                > >through the gaddgedlar site (www.gaddgedlar.com) in the 16th Century
                > >Section under border Ballads.
                >
                >Does anyone have any commentary pro of con on this site? We don't find many
                >that cover the early 14th c.

                I think last time I checked it I determined it was a mixed bag --
                some great stuff, some stuff that could be misleading to the unwary
                (such as a late 18th century poem accessible by going to the section
                labelled "16th century" ;-), and some downright wrong stuff, too.

                I would say use with caution, but if you are properly cautious (and
                double check their claims), it can be helpful.

                >One thing I noticed:
                > >...the first recorded use of the plaid is 1495, seen on the Western isles
                > >by the expedition of James IV. Simple checks were in evidence but not the
                > >tartans of later periods.
                >
                >I know that _clan_ tartans were later, but were tartan-like weaves really
                >not used until the late 1400s? FTR, I'm more interested in Gaelic/Highland
                >than Lowland whenever it makes a difference.

                Well, one thing to keep in mind is that by "plaid" the website is
                almost certainly referring to a certain kind of garment
                (mantle/shawl), not a certain color pattern (tartan), not least
                because Gaddgedlar -- the re-enactment and living history society
                whose website is http://www.gaddgedlar.com/ -- is located in
                Scotland, so they are more likely to use <plaid> in the historical
                Scots and common modern British sense of a certain kind of garment
                than in the common modern USAmerican sense of a certain color pattern.

                Now, their claim that "the first recorded use of the plaid is 1495"
                may or may not be true, depending on whether they mean something
                actually called a <plaid> or whether they mean any plaid-like garment
                even if called by another term.

                It wouldn't be at all surprising if the first recorded use of the
                word <plaid> was in 1495 -- in fact, that would be earlier (though
                not by much) than what is indicated by the Concise Scots Dictionary
                [CSD] and the Dictionary of the Older Scottish Tongue [DOST -- the
                equivalent of the OED for pre-1700 Scots words]. The CSD seems to
                only date the word to the 16th century, and a quick browse through
                the entry for <plaid> in DOST doesn't turn up any quoted examples
                earlier than the early 16th century. (CSD is based on DOST and DOST,
                like the OED, isn't perfect, so an earlier example wouldn't be
                shocking.)

                I would be more surprised if the first recorded use of wearing a
                plaid-like garment (that is, a multi-colored/tartan mantle/shawl) was
                1495, but I don't have time right now to hunt for earlier
                descriptions of such a garment (worn in either the Highlands or
                Lowlands) to find out.

                Sharon, ska Affrick
                --
                Sharon L. Krossa, skrossa-ml@...
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