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Highland noble's clothing

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  • txscot138
    As part of my own research, I have been in touch with Kass McGann (Reconstructing History) about the dress of highland nobles in the mid 1500 s. She seems to
    Message 1 of 16 , Sep 27, 2003
      As part of my own research, I have been in touch with Kass McGann
      (Reconstructing History) about the dress of highland nobles in the
      mid 1500's. She seems to be of the opinion that they would have been
      closer to the English in attire than perhaps the rest of the
      highlanders. After a bit of discussion, we arrived at King James' own
      highland wardrobe as an example, considering that Scottish
      highland nobility would have frequented the Scottish court.
      I was told that the King perhaps would not have worn the same
      style
      leine as the kern or Galloglach would have (huge sleeves, like the
      DeHeere paintings and the engraving of the highland archers) and that
      no evidence exists to support its decoration with embroidery. I was
      given the Rogart shirt as a better choice. Kass stated that the
      "short
      jacket" mentioned would be more like a period doublet (perhaps
      French)
      than the ionar worn by the aforementioned groups.
      I would like to see what everyone here had to say about the matter
      before I commit to a design. I do know that I will probably use the
      same stuff the King used in the construction of these garments.
      Aye,
      Joe
    • Sharon L. Krossa
      ... To some degree I would agree with this -- but not for the reasons given and not quite in the sense indicated. ... Yes, but when the Highland nobility did
      Message 2 of 16 , Sep 27, 2003
        At 8:16 PM +0000 9/27/03, txscot138 wrote:
        > As part of my own research, I have been in touch with Kass McGann
        >(Reconstructing History) about the dress of highland nobles in the
        >mid 1500's. She seems to be of the opinion that they would have been
        >closer to the English in attire than perhaps the rest of the
        >highlanders.

        To some degree I would agree with this -- but not for the reasons
        given and not quite in the sense indicated.

        >After a bit of discussion, we arrived at King James' own
        >highland wardrobe as an example, considering that Scottish
        >highland nobility would have frequented the Scottish court.

        Yes, but when the Highland nobility did frequent the Scottish court,
        what little evidence we have is that they dressed as the Lowlanders
        dressed. See John Elder's letter to Henry VIII:

        http://www.MedievalScotland.org/clothing/refs/elder.shtml

        I don't think King James VI Highland outfit is very helpful for
        trying to figure out what Highland nobles wore -- either at court or
        at home. For one thing, it just indicates that he had made a short
        Highland coat of varied colored cloth, hose made of Highland tartan,
        and "syde" (long, hanging low) Highland shirts. That really isn't
        much to go on (though see below).

        For the specifics of his Highland outfit, see:

        http://www.MedievalScotland.org/clothing/refs/james5highland.shtml

        > I was told that the King perhaps would not have worn the same
        >style
        >leine as the kern or Galloglach would have (huge sleeves, like the
        >DeHeere paintings and the engraving of the highland archers)

        On what basis does she speculate this? All we know about his Highland
        shirt was that it was described as "heland" and "syde", which means
        long, hanging low. Given that a shirt that didn't have the large
        sleeves would have been little different from a lowland style of
        shirt, what about a non-large-sleeved shirt would have been either
        Highland or hanging low?

        >and that
        >no evidence exists to support its decoration with embroidery.

        What evidence?

        Note that when checking the published edition of the Treasurer's
        Accounts of Scotland, which is where the record of James 1538
        highland clothing is found, I found that the entry with the "Heland
        Sarkis" and the like does _not_ include any mention of "2 'Unce of
        silk to sew the same'", "4 ells of 'rubanis to the hands of thame'",
        or "'For sowing and making the said sarkis'" I haven't yet found
        where these additional quotes are coming from, but my suspicion is
        that at some point some researcher erroneously associated unrelated
        items from another entry to the Highland costume entry and that ever
        since researchers have been quoting this original mistake. (The only
        other explanation would be that the manuscript includes text not
        included in the published edition, but so far I find no indication
        that the published edition did not include the complete entry.) See

        http://www.MedievalScotland.org/clothing/refs/james5highland.shtml

        >I was
        >given the Rogart shirt as a better choice. Kass stated that the
        >"short
        >jacket" mentioned would be more like a period doublet (perhaps
        >French)
        >than the ionar worn by the aforementioned groups.

        But what the king had made was a "schort heland coit" -- a short
        Highland coat. I think it is clear that the King was having made an
        exotic outfit like the Wild Scots. There may indeed have been
        differences between what he had made and what Highlanders actually
        wore in the Highlands, but I think the basic identifying
        characteristics would have been there, such as the large sleeves on
        the shirt, the short ionar-like coat, etc.

        What probably would have been different is the materials he used --
        they would have been richer and finer. And perhaps some other and
        completely unknowable details. But in any case, I don't think the
        King's outfit is a good starting place for speculating how a Highland
        nobleman's clothing would have _differed_ from that of other
        Highlanders. What it serves to do is confirm the basic outline of
        general Highland clothing (that we know from other sources) for that
        period, namely shirt with hanging sleeves, tartan hose, short
        coat/jacket, etc.

        > I would like to see what everyone here had to say about the matter
        >before I commit to a design. I do know that I will probably use the
        >same stuff the King used in the construction of these garments.

        Now, all that being said, I do think we have some evidence about what
        Highland nobles wore, and so some basis for further speculation.

        As indicated above, one important piece of evidence we have is
        Elder's letter, which indicates that circa 1542, Highland nobles
        dressed like other nobles at court. Another piece of information is
        from John Taylor's description of his 1618 trip to Scotland in _The
        Pennylesse Pilgramage_, where he describes nobles (and others)
        visiting the Highlands to hunt dressing in Highland style. See

        http://www.MedievalScotland.org/clothing/refs/taylor.shtml

        Together this gives a strong indication that 16th & 17th century
        nobles (Highland and Lowland) dressed differently depending on
        whether they were in the Highlands or in the Lowlands.

        Now, we can add to this the not period or particularly near period
        observation that over the course of the 17th, 18th, and 19th
        centuries the details of the Highland dress worn by nobles and
        gentlemen in portraits changed roughly in line with more general
        European fashions over time, although certain aspects -- especially
        those more integral to the Highland style itself (such as the
        shortness of jackets/doublets/etc) -- did not follow general fashion.
        Based on this, it would not be totally unreasonable to speculate that
        earlier, that is in the 16th century, in some details the Highland
        dress of Highland nobles (as opposed to their Lowland dress) may have
        had elements that paralleled Lowland fashion rather than the Highland
        fashion of the lower classes. But I would think very carefully about
        what these details might be, and in particular check to see if they
        are the kinds of details that did follow wider fashion in later
        periods.

        Specifically concerning the issue of long sleeves or not -- The
        King's Highland outfit was from 1538 and did include an indication of
        long sleeves, and other descriptions of Highland clothing of that
        time either suggest long sleeves or else dressing like the Irish (who
        wore long sleeves, even nobles). Taylor's 1618 description didn't
        mention long sleeves -- somewhere in between the long sleeves seem to
        have gone out of fashion even in the Highlands. I think it is
        reasonable if portraying a very late 16th century Highlander (even
        non-noble) to choose a more European style sleeve. I think it is also
        reasonable, even for nobles, to choose a stereotypical long sleeve.
        But if portraying an early or mid-16th century Highlander of any
        rank, I would use the long sleeved style when dressing Highland.

        I would also put forth explicitly another consideration. Where your
        Highland noble is (theoretically) would appear to influence his
        clothing. If you are portraying him as at home in the Highlands, by
        all means dress him in Highland style. But if you are portraying him
        at court, etc., I suggest dressing him in Lowland style. (In many
        ways the Highland nobles, especially the great nobles, were really
        bi-cultural, adapting themselves to present themselves in the best
        light for whichever culture they were currently dealing with -- this
        extended not just to clothing as suggested by the evidence above, but
        also to things such as genealogies. There were some noble families
        that used two different and contradictory genealogies alternately --
        one for Highland consumptions, one for Lowland! Remember also that in
        the 16th century Lowlanders tended to regard Highlanders as wild and
        uncivilized, and this would have affected how Highland nobles
        presented themselves when in the Lowlands.)

        Let me know if anything I've written isn't clear, or if you think I'm
        missing something in my evidence or logic. (These are issues that are
        only just being turned to in the last few years and it may well be
        there is evidence and/or logical considerations that I'm overlooking.
        If so, I want to know in case I need to rethink my conclusions!)

        Sharon, ska Effric
        --
        Sharon L. Krossa, skrossa-ml@...
      • Joe Robertson
        Hi Sharon, Thanks for your input. Here s a little background that should assist you in assisting me. My persona (and my true ancestors) were from the
        Message 3 of 16 , Sep 27, 2003
          Hi Sharon,
          Thanks for your input. Here's a little background that should assist
          you in assisting me. My persona (and my true ancestors) were from the
          Perthshire area of the Scottish highlands, and were loyal to the Stewart
          dynasty until the end. They rose up against England numerous times and
          fought in the Jacobite uprisings. The Clan Robertson, also known as Clan
          Donnachaidh, had extensive lands in this region and were known as one of
          the "battle" clans of the highlands.
          I'm not sure that our Chief or nobles at the time would have spent
          any time in English court. As a result of that, I feel that their
          willingness to attire themselves in the English manner might be
          suspect. I'm going to say that my persona, although a man of means, is
          Jacobite.
          Having done a lot of research so far on this issue, I wanted to hear
          Kass' angle on the whole thing. I considered it by no means to be the
          final word. I just wanted to bounce it off a few folks in here, since it
          represented a departure from what I had learned so far.
          I've got a lot of questions swimming around inside. Bear with me,
          guys. :o) I like to learn
          Joe
          ---
          Joe Robertson, Psy.D.


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Joe Robertson
          I tend to forget timelines. My persona would likely have been around when James was given the Scottish crown (at age 13 months) but would have been an old
          Message 4 of 16 , Sep 27, 2003
            I tend to forget timelines. My persona would likely have been around
            when James was given the Scottish crown (at age 13 months) but would
            have been an old fellow when he was crowned King of England 33 years
            later.
            Joe
            ---
            Joe Robertson, Psy.D.


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Sharon L. Krossa
            ... Well, the Jacobite uprisings (18th century) weren t against England -- they were against the Hannoverian monarchs of the UK/Great Britain (which included
            Message 5 of 16 , Sep 28, 2003
              At 9:03 PM -0500 9/27/03, Joe Robertson wrote:
              >Hi Sharon,
              > Thanks for your input. Here's a little background that should assist
              >you in assisting me. My persona (and my true ancestors) were from the
              >Perthshire area of the Scottish highlands, and were loyal to the Stewart
              >dynasty until the end. They rose up against England numerous times and
              >fought in the Jacobite uprisings.

              Well, the Jacobite uprisings (18th century) weren't against England
              -- they were against the Hannoverian monarchs of the UK/Great Britain
              (which included both Scotland and England) and for the purpose of
              putting James "III & VIII" Stewart (and later his son) on the throne
              of the UK/Great Britain in their place. It wasn't really a Highland
              vs. non-Highland or a Scottish vs. English thing -- there were
              Highlanders, Lowlanders, and English on all sides -- but rather a
              Stewart vs. Hannover thing.

              >The Clan Robertson, also known as Clan
              >Donnachaidh, had extensive lands in this region and were known as one of
              >the "battle" clans of the highlands.
              > I'm not sure that our Chief or nobles at the time would have spent
              >any time in English court.

              I doubt they would have gone to the English court, either -- but the
              court I was referring to was the Scottish court of the Stewarts,
              which was (like the king) Lowland in location and culture.

              >As a result of that, I feel that their
              >willingness to attire themselves in the English manner might be
              >suspect.

              Again, the issue is Scottish Lowland style vs. Scottish Highland
              style. It just happens that Lowland style was pretty much like
              English style (just as Highland style was pretty much like Irish
              style).

              >I'm going to say that my persona, although a man of means, is
              >Jacobite.

              Jacobites were a post period thing -- primarily 18th century. In the
              16th century Scotland was still an independent kingdom from England
              with separate monarchs, parliaments, etc.

              In 1603 James VI of Scotland inherited England, and for a little of a
              century thereafter the two kingdoms remained independent but happened
              to share a monarch (until 1707 when England and Scotland, via the
              union of parliaments, reformed themselves as the United Kingdom of
              Great Britain). The Stewarts remained in power until 1649 when
              Charles I got his head chopped off by the English, after which
              followed an interregnum and several years of civil wars in both
              England and Scotland and English-Scottish wars, often all mixed up
              together. Charles II was restored in 1660, but in 1689 James II was
              deposed in favour of William of Orange (James II's nephew) & Mary
              (James II's daughter). When Mary died William reigned alone until his
              death in 1702, and the throne was inherited by Mary's sister and
              James II's daughter Anne. It was under Anne that the Union of
              Parliaments occurred in 1707. Only in 1714, when Anne died, did the
              succession go to the more distantly related descendants of James VI,
              George of Hannover.

              The "Jacob" of "Jacobite" came from James VII (<Jacobus> is the Latin
              form of <James>), and there really couldn't be any Jacobites before
              he was deposed in 1689. The term is also used to refer to supporters
              of James VII's son James ("the Old Pretender") and his son Charles
              ("the Young Pretender") in the 18th century (with the major uprisings
              in 1715 and 1745). Lots of people get confused about about this --
              with such a long string of Jameses ruling Scotland in the 15th & 16th
              centuries it's an easy mistake to assume <Jacobite> is in reference
              to them.

              Anyway, returning to the issue of Perthshire. Parts of Perthshire
              were Highland and parts were Lowland (physically and culturally).
              Since the Highland parts were relatively close to the Lowlands, I
              would expect Highland nobles from that region to be bi-cultural even
              at lower social levels than might be true for nobles from more
              distant parts of the Highlands or Western Isles. (Indeed, like many
              Highland nobles many probably even held lands in both Lowlands and
              Highlands.) The ruling family of the Robertsons do seem to have been
              bi-cultural (rather than purely Lowland culturally) to the extent
              that they also have a Gaelic name by which the clan was known and
              have several chiefs who had Gaelic bynames. (Not all families who
              were lords of Gaelic clans were themselves particularly Gaelic in
              their own culture.)

              All of which is to say, Perthshire Robertson nobles are exactly the
              kind of nobles I would expect to dress in Highland style while in the
              Highlands and Lowland style while in the Lowlands (such as when
              attending the Scottish king/queen at his/her court.)

              Also, note that unlike the 14th & 15th centuries, most of which was
              spent at war or at best truce with England, the 16th century saw more
              peace and even much closer ties between the two kingdoms. There were
              certainly periods in that century when there was war or armed
              conflict between England and Scotland, but then there were also
              periods of real peace, cooperation, and even intermarriage.

              For example, James VI inherited the English throne in 1603 primarily
              because his great-grandmother (on both his mother's and father's
              side), Margaret Tudor, was Henry VIII's sister. Margaret Tudor
              married James IV in 1503. Obviously, this didn't prevent all
              hostilities between Scotland and England (James IV died at Flodden in
              battle against the English), and always the relationship was complex,
              but overall the general trend of the 16th century was closer ties
              between the two kingdoms, especially after the Scottish Reformation
              in 1560 and more especially during the reign of James VI, leading
              ultimately to the union of crowns in 1603. (One could characterize it
              as rather than being hostilities broken up by periods of peace, the
              16th century was peace broken up by periods of hostilities...)

              As you indicate that your persona was around when James VI became
              king, that would be around 1567. There was conflict at this time and
              for the next some years, but it was more in the nature of civil
              conflict than Scotland vs. England conflict, with supporters of the
              Scottish Queen (Mary) against supporters of the (infant) Scottish
              King (James). England naturally didn't remain neutral, but their
              interventions were on the side of one of the Scottish parties
              (namely, the King's) rather than a Scotland vs. England thing. In
              this period whether one had much anti-English feeling would depend a
              great deal on both which Scottish Stewart monarch one supported and
              which religion one followed (though neither was a universally
              determining factor -- things were always rather complex ;-) and
              anti-English feeling is quite a different thing than anti-Lowland
              feeling. (The impression I get is that while Lowlanders regarded
              Highlanders as wild and uncivilized, Highlanders do not seem to have
              had similar negative attitudes towards Lowlanders. And, as mentioned,
              many Highland nobles inhabited both cultures, anyway.)

              I don't know whether the Robertsons of Struan were with the Queen's
              party or the King's (or tried to remain neutral waiting for one side
              or the other to emerge triumphant) nor do I even know whether they
              were Catholic or Protestant (which could very well hint at who they
              supported). [I can find info on their services to James I/II and then
              two centuries later their support of the Royalists, but nothing of
              their politics in between, and their pattern of supporting Scotland
              and/or the Stewarts doesn't help when both sides were Stewarts...]
              But if they were involved it very likely would have taken them into
              the Lowlands, and very likely when in the Lowlands dealing with
              Lowland allies (at court or otherwise), based on what evidence we
              have to work with (discussed in my earlier post), I expect they
              probably dressed in Lowland fashion, and when in the Highlands very
              likely dressed in Highland fashion.

              > Having done a lot of research so far on this issue, I wanted to hear
              >Kass' angle on the whole thing. I considered it by no means to be the
              >final word. I just wanted to bounce it off a few folks in here, since it
              >represented a departure from what I had learned so far.

              I have great respect for Kass and her work, and on many many things
              she and I tend to agree. However, based on what you've indicated, on
              this particular issue at this time it would appear we agree on some
              conclusions -- though we arrive there for different reasons -- and
              disagree on others. (And again I'd be interested in knowing on what
              specific evidence she based some of her conclusions.) Regardless, I
              always encourage folks to look at the evidence, listen to the
              reasoning, discuss it thoroughly, and then make up their own mind --
              so I applaud you're attitude, whether you apply it to Kass or myself
              ;-) (And please tell me if you spot evidence I'm overlooking or logic
              I'm missing! If you should come to different conclusions, I honestly
              would like to discuss it and find out why...)

              > I've got a lot of questions swimming around inside. Bear with me,
              >guys. :o) I like to learn

              Nae problem -- I think all of us here like to learn :-)

              Sharon, ska Africa
              --
              Sharon Krossa, skrossa-ml@...
              Resources for Scottish history, names, clothing, language & more:
              Medieval Scotland - http://www.MedievalScotland.org/
            • Matthew Newsome
              ... She may be getting this idea from McClintock s observation that 15 ells of cloth would not have been enough (seeing as at least two shirts are being made
              Message 6 of 16 , Sep 28, 2003
                "Sharon L. Krossa" wrote:

                > > I was told that the King perhaps would not have worn the same
                > >style
                > >leine as the kern or Galloglach would have (huge sleeves, like the
                > >DeHeere paintings and the engraving of the highland archers)
                >
                > On what basis does she speculate this? All we know about his Highland
                > shirt was that it was described as "heland" and "syde", which means
                > long, hanging low. Given that a shirt that didn't have the large
                > sleeves would have been little different from a lowland style of
                > shirt, what about a non-large-sleeved shirt would have been either
                > Highland or hanging low?

                She may be getting this idea from McClintock's observation that 15 ells
                of cloth would not have been enough (seeing as at least two shirts are
                being made -- sarkis is plural) for the full pleated shirts described in
                other sources. However, just because the kirtles of the shirts are not
                as deeply pleated doesn't mean the sleeves cannot be long.

                I have a leine with modestly long sleeves (perhaps half as long as seen
                in the 1550 woodcut "from the quick") that is not pleated and was easily
                made with 7 ells of cloth. And this is of the wrap-around variety. If
                James' was of the pull-over style, that would require much less cloth.
                He could easily have had two made with even longer sleeves than mine
                with 15 ells -- and even have some modest pleating in the skirts.

                Aye,
                Eogan

                --
                Matthew A. C. Newsome
                http://albanach.org
                Highland Dress Historian
                Catholic Apologist

                TURRIS FORTIS Catholic Apologetics
                on line at http://turrisfortis.com

                "To whom shall we go?" -- St. Peter
                John 6:68
              • Tina Paxton
                ... You are referring to James the VI and I? The first King James of Scotland was late 1300 s into early 1400 s (spent allot of his young life in the Towers
                Message 7 of 16 , Sep 28, 2003
                  on 9/27/03 10:17 PM, Joe Robertson at joedr@... wrote:

                  > I tend to forget timelines. My persona would likely have been around
                  > when James was given the Scottish crown (at age 13 months) but would
                  > have been an old fellow when he was crowned King of England 33 years
                  > later.

                  You are referring to James the VI and I? The first King James of Scotland
                  was late 1300's into early 1400's (spent allot of his young life in the
                  Towers of London) but he was never king of England. King James the VI of
                  Scotland is the one who also became James the I of England.
                • Tina Paxton
                  I was just sitting here reading Sharon s wonderful recitation of Scottish history and I became curious to know if any of the wonderful scholars on this list
                  Message 8 of 16 , Sep 28, 2003
                    I was just sitting here reading Sharon's wonderful recitation of Scottish
                    history and I became curious to know if any of the wonderful scholars on
                    this list might be able to assist with my own particular questions about
                    less signifigant historical issues of lowland Scotland. In other words,
                    would you know anything...or know how to find information about...the
                    Paxton's of Scotland. What little I've been able to find is that they
                    appear along both sides of the border (not that unusual). A small town of
                    "Packstoun" appears on historical maps drawn in the 1600's but I have no
                    idea when that town was established. My period of interest persona-wise is
                    early 1400's but mundanely I'm interested in anything I can learn about my
                    ancestors lives, customs, etc. On "clan lists" the surname is listed as
                    a--rats I forget the name--subset or attached family to the Hume Clan. But,
                    I think that this might be modern day romanticism because it seems unlikely
                    that the Hume family would have considered themselves a "clan" in the
                    Highland sense. It does seem likely that my ancestors would have been
                    "Border Reivers".

                    Tina
                  • Joe Robertson
                    Sorry about that. I meant the 4th and 1st... :o) My guy was around in the mid 1500 s. Joe ... Joe Robertson, Psy.D. [Non-text portions of this message have
                    Message 9 of 16 , Sep 28, 2003
                      Sorry about that. I meant the 4th and 1st... :o)
                      My guy was around in the mid 1500's.
                      Joe
                      ---
                      Joe Robertson, Psy.D.


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Sharon L. Krossa
                      ... I think you mean James the Sixth of Scotland (1567-1625) and First of England (1603-1625) -- the one who was the son of Mary Queen of Scots (1542-1567) who
                      Message 10 of 16 , Sep 28, 2003
                        At 6:59 PM -0500 9/28/03, Joe Robertson wrote:
                        >Sorry about that. I meant the 4th and 1st... :o)
                        >My guy was around in the mid 1500's.

                        I think you mean James the Sixth of Scotland (1567-1625) and First of
                        England (1603-1625) -- the one who was the son of
                        Mary Queen of Scots (1542-1567) who was the daughter of
                        James V (1513-1542) who was the son of
                        James IV (1488-1513) who was the son of
                        James III (1460-1488) who was the son of
                        James II (1437-1460) who was the son of
                        James I (1406-1437) who was the son of
                        Robert III (1390-1406)...

                        There are so many Jameses that it is very easy to get confused with
                        the numbers -- especially since several post-1603 had more than one!
                        :-)

                        Sharon, ska Affrick
                        --
                        Sharon L. Krossa, skrossa-ml@...
                      • Joe Robertson
                        I am confused now. The dates you sent are different than the one s I remember. Let me check my timeline again and I ll get back to you. Joe ... Joe Robertson,
                        Message 11 of 16 , Sep 28, 2003
                          I am confused now. The dates you sent are different than the one's I
                          remember. Let me check my timeline again and I'll get back to you.
                          Joe
                          ---
                          Joe Robertson, Psy.D.


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • txscot138
                          Wonderful! I now have to outfit a family in a set of lowland clothes as well as highland clothes. :o) I have NO examples of the dress of noble Scottish
                          Message 12 of 16 , Sep 28, 2003
                            Wonderful! I now have to outfit a family in a set of lowland clothes
                            as well as highland clothes. :o) I have NO examples of the dress of
                            noble Scottish lowlanders. Are there items from each that can work
                            with either set? It's obvious that the big, droopy leine may be out
                            for those calls at court.
                            Aye,
                            Joe
                            ---
                            Joe Robertson, Psy.D.
                          • Tina Paxton
                            ... Now, mind you, I m just a novice myself....but....what I have learned about my persona in the time of James the I (1406-1437) is that we were more likely
                            Message 13 of 16 , Sep 28, 2003
                              on 9/28/03 9:09 PM, txscot138 at joedr@... wrote:

                              > Wonderful! I now have to outfit a family in a set of lowland clothes
                              > as well as highland clothes. :o) I have NO examples of the dress of
                              > noble Scottish lowlanders. Are there items from each that can work
                              > with either set? It's obvious that the big, droopy leine may be out
                              > for those calls at court.
                              > Aye,
                              > Joe
                              > ---
                              > Joe Robertson, Psy.D.

                              Now, mind you, I'm just a novice myself....but....what I have learned about
                              my persona in the time of James the I (1406-1437) is that we were more
                              likely to be influenced by the French, Flemish, and Danish than the English
                              because...well, we didn't much like the English. In fact, we fought with
                              the French against the English at every opportunity and we lowlanders also
                              like to relieve the English of their livestock on a regular basis. I'm not
                              as familiar with the state of relations in your period, though, Milord.

                              Cristiane/Tina
                            • Joe Robertson
                              Well, I am about 120 years older than you, lass. :o) My kin and clan serve the Stewart dynasty as you did. From what I have discovered so far, our lands cover
                              Message 14 of 16 , Sep 28, 2003
                                Well, I am about 120 years older than you, lass. :o)
                                My kin and clan serve the Stewart dynasty as you did. From what I
                                have discovered so far, our lands cover both highland and lowland
                                Scotland. I would have adhered to what you would have viewed as the
                                barbaric dress of the wild scot while at home, but would have been
                                equally comfy in lowland dress, especially when visiting the Scottish
                                court.
                                Our politics, according to many, were more relaxed in our relations
                                with England in 1500's, although civil factions developed in the matter
                                of support for either Queen Mary or the infant King James IV.
                                Since your king was James I, you might find it interesting that my
                                clan captured his killers. In 1437, the chief of Clan Donnachaidh,
                                Robert Riach (Robert the grizzled), captured Sir Robert Graham who, with
                                others, murdered King James I at Perth. In reward, James II gave Robert
                                a charter in which all of his extensive lands were made into a feudal
                                barony giving him administrative control over them. The barony was
                                called Struan and the chief was henceforth known as Robertson (from this
                                Robert) of Struan. He was also awarded the heraldic crest, a right hand
                                holding up an imperial crown, which is still featured on the arms of our
                                present day chief.
                                Slainte,
                                Joe
                                ---
                                Joe Robertson, Psy.D.
                              • Tina Paxton
                                ... Aye, and a well earned honor for an honorable family! Cristiane/Tina
                                Message 15 of 16 , Sep 28, 2003
                                  on 9/28/03 11:05 PM, Joe Robertson at joedr@... wrote:

                                  > Well, I am about 120 years older than you, lass. :o)
                                  > My kin and clan serve the Stewart dynasty as you did. From what I
                                  > have discovered so far, our lands cover both highland and lowland
                                  > Scotland. I would have adhered to what you would have viewed as the
                                  > barbaric dress of the wild scot while at home, but would have been
                                  > equally comfy in lowland dress, especially when visiting the Scottish
                                  > court.
                                  > Our politics, according to many, were more relaxed in our relations
                                  > with England in 1500's, although civil factions developed in the matter
                                  > of support for either Queen Mary or the infant King James IV.
                                  > Since your king was James I, you might find it interesting that my
                                  > clan captured his killers. In 1437, the chief of Clan Donnachaidh,
                                  > Robert Riach (Robert the grizzled), captured Sir Robert Graham who, with
                                  > others, murdered King James I at Perth. In reward, James II gave Robert
                                  > a charter in which all of his extensive lands were made into a feudal
                                  > barony giving him administrative control over them. The barony was
                                  > called Struan and the chief was henceforth known as Robertson (from this
                                  > Robert) of Struan. He was also awarded the heraldic crest, a right hand
                                  > holding up an imperial crown, which is still featured on the arms of our
                                  > present day chief.
                                  > Slainte,
                                  > Joe
                                  > ---
                                  > Joe Robertson, Psy.D.

                                  Aye, and a well earned honor for an honorable family!

                                  Cristiane/Tina
                                • Sharon L. Krossa
                                  ... The dates in which posting? (When responding to someone s post it really helps to include a short quote or otherwise give enough context for people to know
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Sep 29, 2003
                                    At 7:52 PM -0500 9/28/03, Joe Robertson wrote:
                                    >I am confused now. The dates you sent are different than the one's I
                                    >remember. Let me check my timeline again and I'll get back to you.

                                    The dates in which posting? (When responding to someone's post it
                                    really helps to include a short quote or otherwise give enough
                                    context for people to know what specifically is being referenced.
                                    I've mentioned dates in just about all of my recent postings ;-)

                                    If you mean the recent post with the regnal dates for all the various
                                    pre-1603 Jameses, those are the dates they reigned rather than the
                                    dates they lived, if that helps. Also, though this time I copied
                                    these dates from my handy "Scottish History Ruler", they are the same
                                    dates I find in academic history books such as Wormald _Court, Kirk,
                                    and Community: Scotland 1470 - 1625_ and Grant _Independence and
                                    Nationhood: Scotland 1306 - 1469_.

                                    Sharon, ska Affrick
                                    --
                                    Sharon Krossa, skrossa-ml@...
                                    Resources for Scottish history, names, clothing, language & more:
                                    Medieval Scotland - http://www.MedievalScotland.org/
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