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Re: [albanach] Hail unto the list

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  • amergin3084
    ... Honorably, ... Failte/Welcome I haven t done any research on sailors but since you are concerned with lowlanders , wearing the kilt is not a problem. The
    Message 1 of 7 , Sep 3 7:12 AM
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      --- scotsfencer@... wrote:
      > Hail unto the list,
      >
      > My name is Gavine Armestrang, I am a SCAdian that
      > resides in the Barony of
      > Darkwater, Kingdom of Trimaris. Obviously I have a
      > Scottish lowlander persona.

      > I am also trying to find some other
      > ideas for clothing. Kilts are
      > great, but the wrong material (or amount thereof) in
      > the Trimaran heat can
      > roast a lad. I have seen pictures, although how
      > accurate I do not know, of Scots
      > wearing pants, did they also wear a tartan drape? or
      > was this not necessary
      > due to the tartans not meaning anything clan wise.
      > Did Scotsman wear plain
      > tunics also? >
      >
      Honorably,
      > Gavine Armestrang
      > MKA Corey Steff
      >
      Failte/Welcome
      I haven't done any research on sailors but since you
      are concerned with "lowlanders", wearing the kilt is
      not a problem. The kilt and breacan (plaid) are
      Highland in origin and so the lowlanders wouldn't have
      worn them.I think it would be safe to say that what
      was being worn in what was then the borders and
      northern England would be ok and acceptable. If I am
      incorrect in this information I sincerely apologize.
      Also yes, plain tunic would be accptable also.

      Beannachd geal,
      Amergin

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    • Matt Newsome
      Gavine, For a lowland persona c. 1550s, simply forget about the kilt. What we would call Highland Dress would be completely foreign to your persona. We
      Message 2 of 7 , Sep 3 7:33 AM
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        Gavine,

        For a lowland persona c. 1550s, simply forget about the kilt. What
        we would call "Highland Dress" would be completely foreign to your
        persona. We tend to forget that the lowland and highland cultures
        were rather foreign to each other. Your persona would have spoken
        Inglis (English, or what we would term today Scots), worn clothing
        very much like his English neighbors to the south, and have been
        reared in a rather feudal system of land ownership and social structure.
        Depending on exaclty when in the sixteenth century you are placing
        him, he would be Protestant Presbyterian, or at least be heavily
        pressured by law and society to be so.

        Now, a Highland Scot in the same time period would have spoken Gaelic,
        worn elaborate leinte (long, full tunics) that would have been rather
        odd looking to the non-Gaelic observer, and by the end of the century
        could have been wearing the tartan wrap, the feileadh-mor. He would
        very likely have been reared in a clan social structure. He may
        be aware of the Reformation as some trouble happening in the south,
        but he and his family would for the most part be unaffected by it.


        Your lowland persona would have much stronger ties to your English
        neighbors just a stone's throw over the border. The Highlander would
        have much more contact with the Irish. You would likely consider
        a Highlander and anything to do with Highland culture rather barbaric.
        In short, would he have even wanted to wear a kilt? No!

        For inspiration about your clothing, look to sources that deal with
        English clothes from the same time period. Although there were some
        weapons and armor styles that seemed to have been favored by the
        Border Scots. Osprey has a book out in their Men-at-Arms series
        dealing with the Border Reviers that is quite good and well illustrated.
        This would be an excellent first source for you.

        Good luck!
        Aye,
        Eogan


        Albanach.org
        Scottish History -- Highland Dress
      • scotsfencer@aol.com
        In a message dated 9/3/03 10:16:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, amergin3084@yahoo.com writes:
        Message 3 of 7 , Sep 3 10:37 AM
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          In a message dated 9/3/03 10:16:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
          amergin3084@... writes:

          << since you are concerned with "lowlanders", wearing the kilt is not a
          problem. The kilt and breacan (plaid) are Highland in origin and so the lowlanders
          wouldn't have
          worn them. >>

          I have seen research also that the lowlanders DID wear kilts, just not the
          great kilt. I'll have to remember where I saw that and read it again.
        • Sharon L. Krossa
          ... I think you may be confusing wearing of kilts, which is either a modern thing (small kilt) or else a purely Highland thing (belted plaid aka great kilt )
          Message 4 of 7 , Sep 3 1:51 PM
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            At 1:37 PM -0400 9/3/03, scotsfencer@... wrote:
            >In a message dated 9/3/03 10:16:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
            >amergin3084@... writes:
            >
            ><< since you are concerned with "lowlanders", wearing the kilt is not a
            >problem. The kilt and breacan (plaid) are Highland in origin and so
            >the lowlanders
            >wouldn't have
            > worn them. >>
            >
            >I have seen research also that the lowlanders DID wear kilts, just not the
            >great kilt. I'll have to remember where I saw that and read it again.

            I think you may be confusing wearing of kilts, which is either a
            modern thing (small kilt) or else a purely Highland thing (belted
            plaid aka "great kilt") with wearing of plaids (unbelted), which was
            done in both Highlands and Lowlands (see my other post), or else
            recalling that there is some evidence (perhaps 17th century? I can't
            recall) that at least sometimes when Lowlanders went on hunting trips
            to the Highlands, they dressed in local style (so, didn't wear
            Highland-style attire normally, but only when "going native" on
            hunting trips in the Highlands). But normally Lowlanders dressed more
            or less like the English and NW continental Europeans.

            That being said, if you do come across evidence that Lowlanders wore
            their plaids belted in SCA period, I'd love to know of it!

            Sharon, ska Africa
            --
            Sharon L. Krossa, skrossa-ml@...
          • Sharon L. Krossa
            ... A small correction. While the kilt in the sense of a plaid worn belted or great kilt was purely Highland (and of course a kilt in the sense of a modern
            Message 5 of 7 , Sep 3 1:52 PM
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              At 7:12 AM -0700 9/3/03, amergin3084 wrote:
              >I haven't done any research on sailors but since you
              >are concerned with "lowlanders", wearing the kilt is
              >not a problem. The kilt and breacan (plaid) are
              >Highland in origin and so the lowlanders wouldn't have
              >worn them.

              A small correction. While the "kilt" in the sense of a plaid worn
              belted or "great kilt" was purely Highland (and of course a kilt in
              the sense of a modern small kilt is modern ;-), Lowlanders did wear
              plaids -- that is, rectangular length of tartan cloth worn as a
              mantle/shawl. They may not have worn them in the same fashion as
              Highlanders did, but many Lowlanders did wear them (especially women
              of all classes and at least rural men of lower classes). Note that
              the plaid is an outer garment -- a mantle/shawl -- not a main garment
              worn at all times throughout the day like a skirt, shirt, or tunic.
              Rather, it was worn pretty much in the same circumstances when a
              cloak would be worn -- when cold, in bad weather, outside, etc.

              Other than (some) Lowlanders wearing plaids, though, generally
              Lowland clothing was more or less the same as English and/or
              north-west continental clothing of the same era. So you might try
              seeing if you can find information on what English sailors wore circa
              1500.

              Sharon, ska Affrick

              PS Of course, circa 1500 is some 94 years before the first clear
              evidence of a plaid worn belted even in the Highlands and Western
              Isles!
              --
              Sharon Krossa, skrossa-ml@...
              Resources for Scottish history, names, clothing, language & more:
              Medieval Scotland - http://www.MedievalScotland.org/
            • Matthew Newsome
              ... After the unpopular Union of the Parliaments in 1707 (or so) some lowland nationalists did begin to look more favorably upon Highland dress. (I think at
              Message 6 of 7 , Sep 4 4:12 AM
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                scotsfencer@... wrote:

                > I have seen research also that the lowlanders DID wear kilts, just not
                > the
                > great kilt. I'll have to remember where I saw that and read it again.

                After the unpopular Union of the Parliaments in 1707 (or so) some
                lowland nationalists did begin to look more favorably upon Highland
                dress. (I think at this point the English were unpopular enough among
                the southers Scots that they'd rather affiliate themselves with those
                "barbarians" to the north than the English). But certainly the kilt was
                never a "daily dress" item for them. When you get into the nineteenth
                century, you'd certainly have Scots of lowland origin donning the kilt
                on certain special occasions as ceremonial garb. But I can't think of a
                time when the kilt was ever a part of the day-to-day clothing of the
                Lowlander.
                Aye,
                Eogan

                --
                Matthew A. C. Newsome
                http://albanach.org
                Highland Dress Historian
                Catholic Apologist

                TURRIS FORTIS Catholic Apologetics
                on line at http://turrisfortis.com

                "To whom shall we go?" -- St. Peter
                John 6:68
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