Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [albanach] Lallan Scot Introduction...input desired

Expand Messages
  • Sharon L. Krossa
    ... Well, spellings were actually an issue -- it s just that they would regard several spellings as all being correct (while we tend to think there is always
    Message 1 of 6 , May 6, 2003
    • 0 Attachment
      At 12:12 AM +0000 5/6/03, frecs7 wrote:
      >Persona Introduction:
      >
      >Name: Cristiane Packstoun/Paxton/Packston (while I know that
      >spellings weren't an issue in period,

      Well, spellings were actually an issue -- it's just that they would
      regard several spellings as all being correct (while we tend to think
      there is always one and only one correct spelling). There were many
      spellings that they would have regarded as quite wrong, and more that
      would never even have occurred to them!

      >I've gathered from heralds
      >that I need to be able to document the "correct" spelling of the
      >period before I can register it...

      Well, document "a" correct spelling... ;-)

      Anyway, yes, the CoA only registers one form/spelling of a name (for
      each registration). And you must provide evidence that the form and
      spellings you are submitting are period and go together (at least to
      the extent required by the Rules for Submission).

      >can't seem to find that
      >documentation)

      Oh, that's dead easy -- provided you already know where to look and
      happen to have the book to hand ;-)

      >Period: 1380-1420ish

      Evidence (documentation) for the name and spelling <Cristiane> can be
      found in Black _Surnames of Scotland_ s.n. CALDCOTT: "and the seal of
      Cristiane de Caldecottis is appended to the renunciation by her of
      the lands of Grayden and Sympryne in 1424"

      Note, however, that this example is in Latin. Also, because the names
      on seals were usually in the genitive case, and based on the ending
      of the name, we can tell that <Cristiane> is a genitive case form,
      that is, <Cristiane> is the Latin equivalent of English
      <Cristiana's>. The Latin nominative case form (what you want for
      registering a name) would be <Cristiana>.

      It is very likely that the Scots language form of <Cristiana> -- the
      one that would be most often used when speaking, since most folks
      spoke Scots rather than Latin -- was pronounced like <Cristian>,
      however it was spelled, rather than pronounced with an <-a> on the
      end of it like the Latin form. However, documenting a Scots language
      spelling of the name for the early 15th century is difficult because
      in that period most Scottish documents were in Latin.

      Evidence for the Latin nominative case spelling <Cristiana> can also
      be found in Black, s.n. SMALL: "Cristiana, widow of Thomas Small,
      held the vill of Estir Softlawe in Tueidalle, 1360"

      Black is on the list of works for which you don't need to provide a
      photocopy of the pages when submitting your documentation to the
      CoA/Laurel (just quote the relevant bits in your documentation and
      cite the relevant entries).

      Another reference (which actually is citing Black) is "A List of
      Feminine Personal Names Found in Scottish Records" by Talan Gwynek
      (Brian M. Scott), at
      http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/talan/scottishfem/

      Evidence (documentation) for the surname can also be found in Black,
      s.n. PAXTON. Black lists these examples from around 1400:

      Patrick de Paxtoun, 1376
      Patrick de Paxtoun 1395
      James de Paxtoun 1453

      Again, these names are in Latin (although I suspect that Black has
      Anglicized the given names -- I suspect they were "Patricius" and
      "Jacobus" in the original documents).

      So <Cristiana de Paxtoun> would be an excellent Latin form of the
      name of a late 14th/early 15th century Lowlander, which can be easily
      documented for submission to the SCA College of Arms for registration.

      In Scots, circa 1380-1420, she would probably be known as <Cristian
      of Paxtoun>. In a bit of Scots language text from 1400 from Dickinson
      _Early Records of the Burgh of Aberdeen: 1317, 1398-1407_ (p. 174), I
      found "Item. fra Thom of Paxtoun a cofir, ii s." (translated into
      modern English: 'Item. From Thom of Paxtoun, a coffer, 2
      schillings'), showing that in Scots, the Latin <de> was transformed
      to <of>.

      Now, go a bit later in time, when there is more Scots language
      records, and you would get to have more fun with the spelling (more
      spelling variations can be documented for the given name). For 16th
      century spellings of the given name, see:

      http://www.MedievalScotland.org/scotnames/lowland16/

      Note that in the 16th century, at least, there are documented
      examples from Scots language texts of the spelling <Cristiane>. But
      in the 16th century, the surname would not longer have the <de> in
      Latin or <of> in Scots: <Cristiane Paxtoun> for a 16th century Scots
      language form (and <Cristiana Paxtoun> for a Latin form).
      (Unfortunately, Black doesn't seem to have any 16th century examples
      of the surname, so I'm speculating based on the earlier evidence and
      my knowledge of 16th century Scots spelling tendencies in general.)

      It may be as time goes on you'll stumble across additional spellings
      for the names from documents from the early 15th or 16th century, but
      these are the ones I can find at the moment.

      Full bibliography info for the books:

      Black, George F. _The Surnames of Scotland: Their Origin, Meaning,
      and History_. Edinburgh: Birlinn, 1993. Original edition, The New
      York Public Library, 1946.
      http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0871041723/medievalscotland

      Dickinson, William Croft, ed. _Early Records of the Burgh of
      Aberdeen: 1317, 1398-1407_. Vol. 49, _Publications of The Scottish
      History Society_. Edinburgh: The Scottish History Society, Third
      Series, 1957.

      BTW, for those unfamiliar with the usage, "s.n." in my citations
      above means "under the name" -- it tells you the header name of the
      entry in Black to look under, and is more precise than a page number.

      Sharon, ska Effrick
      --
      Sharon Krossa, skrossa-ml@...
      Resources for Scottish history, names, clothing, language & more:
      Medieval Scotland - http://www.MedievalScotland.org/
      The most complete index of reliable web articles about pre-1600 names:
      The Medieval Names Archive - http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/
    • Matthew Newsome
      ... Sharon s already given you details about period spellings documented from Black, but I ll add that when you register yoru name with the College of heralds,
      Message 2 of 6 , May 6, 2003
      • 0 Attachment
        frecs7 wrote:

        > Name: Cristiane Packstoun/Paxton/Packston (while I know that
        > spellings weren't an issue in period, I've gathered from heralds that
        > I need to be able to document the "correct" spelling of the period
        > before I can register it...can't seem to find that documentation)
        > Period: 1380-1420ish
        > Location: East Marche up river from Berwick (on a map circa
        > 1650, there is a town of Paxton in this location. I have not found a
        > more period map to indicate if it was there in 1400.)

        Sharon's already given you details about period spellings documented
        from Black, but I'll add that when you register yoru name with the
        College of heralds, there should be a place you check on the forms that
        allows for minor variations and corrections in grammar and spelling, so
        that the heralds can fix errors on their own without having to return
        the submission to you first which would cause considerable delay in
        registration.

        I don't know what your Kingdom's forms look like, but here in Atlantia
        there is a box to check to allow for minor changes and a space for you
        to write in what you want your name to be correct for (you'd write in
        "Lowland Scotland c. 1400").

        Aye,
        Eogan

        --
        Matthew A. C. Newsome
        http://albanach.org
        Highland Dress Historian
        Catholic Apologist

        TURRIS FORTIS Catholic Apologetics
        on line at
        http://albanach.org/apologetics

        "To whom shall we go?" -- St. Peter
        John 6:68
      • Muirghein
        ... FTR, a couple of years back the CoA standardized the forms, so that the forms from all kingdoms are more-or-less alike. Caid also has the space for you to
        Message 3 of 6 , May 6, 2003
        • 0 Attachment
          At 05:06 AM 5/6/03, Eogan wrote:
          >I don't know what your Kingdom's forms look like, but here in Atlantia
          >there is a box to check to allow for minor changes and a space for you
          >to write in what you want your name to be correct for (you'd write in
          >"Lowland Scotland c. 1400").

          FTR, a couple of years back the CoA standardized the forms, so that the
          forms from all kingdoms are more-or-less alike. Caid also has the space for
          you to state when/where you want you name to be authentic for (if you
          care), so I suspect that bit's the same in all kingdoms.

          YiS,
          Baintighearna Muirghein Dhaire Faoilciarach /|\
          Dreiburgen Web Minister http://www.dreiburgen.org
          (any posts to e-mail lists do not reflect official
          opinions unless specifically stated otherwise)
        • Sharon L. Krossa
          ... Also indicate the language -- for example, Latin if you submit a Latin form, Scots if you want it in Scots. (Basically, be as clear as you can about
          Message 4 of 6 , May 6, 2003
          • 0 Attachment
            At 8:06 AM -0400 5/6/03, Matthew Newsome wrote:
            >Sharon's already given you details about period spellings documented
            >from Black, but I'll add that when you register yoru name with the
            >College of heralds, there should be a place you check on the forms that
            >allows for minor variations and corrections in grammar and spelling, so
            >that the heralds can fix errors on their own without having to return
            >the submission to you first which would cause considerable delay in
            >registration.
            >
            >I don't know what your Kingdom's forms look like, but here in Atlantia
            >there is a box to check to allow for minor changes and a space for you
            >to write in what you want your name to be correct for (you'd write in
            >"Lowland Scotland c. 1400").

            Also indicate the language -- for example, "Latin" if you submit a
            Latin form, "Scots" if you want it in Scots. (Basically, be as clear
            as you can about what you want, even if it is more than the form
            explicitly asks for.)

            However, check the box asking for an authentic name *only* if, given
            a choice, you would rather have a somewhat different (changed) but
            authentic name rather than the name as you submitted it.

            Sharon, ska Ewphrick
            --
            Sharon Krossa, skrossa-ml@...
            Resources for Scottish history, names, clothing, language & more:
            Medieval Scotland - http://www.MedievalScotland.org/
            The most complete index of reliable web articles about pre-1600 names:
            The Medieval Names Archive - http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/
          • frecs7
            I am forever in your debt, Milady! Thank you, thank you, thank you! Cristian of Paxtoun Tina ... think ... that ... (for ... to ... be ... of ... names ...
            Message 5 of 6 , May 7, 2003
            • 0 Attachment
              I am forever in your debt, Milady! Thank you, thank you, thank you!

              Cristian of Paxtoun
              Tina

              --- In albanach@yahoogroups.com, "Sharon L. Krossa" <skrossa-ml@M...>
              wrote:
              > At 12:12 AM +0000 5/6/03, frecs7 wrote:
              > >Persona Introduction:
              > >
              > >Name: Cristiane Packstoun/Paxton/Packston (while I know that
              > >spellings weren't an issue in period,
              >
              > Well, spellings were actually an issue -- it's just that they would
              > regard several spellings as all being correct (while we tend to
              think
              > there is always one and only one correct spelling). There were many
              > spellings that they would have regarded as quite wrong, and more
              that
              > would never even have occurred to them!
              >
              > >I've gathered from heralds
              > >that I need to be able to document the "correct" spelling of the
              > >period before I can register it...
              >
              > Well, document "a" correct spelling... ;-)
              >
              > Anyway, yes, the CoA only registers one form/spelling of a name
              (for
              > each registration). And you must provide evidence that the form and
              > spellings you are submitting are period and go together (at least
              to
              > the extent required by the Rules for Submission).
              >
              > >can't seem to find that
              > >documentation)
              >
              > Oh, that's dead easy -- provided you already know where to look and
              > happen to have the book to hand ;-)
              >
              > >Period: 1380-1420ish
              >
              > Evidence (documentation) for the name and spelling <Cristiane> can
              be
              > found in Black _Surnames of Scotland_ s.n. CALDCOTT: "and the seal
              of
              > Cristiane de Caldecottis is appended to the renunciation by her of
              > the lands of Grayden and Sympryne in 1424"
              >
              > Note, however, that this example is in Latin. Also, because the
              names
              > on seals were usually in the genitive case, and based on the ending
              > of the name, we can tell that <Cristiane> is a genitive case form,
              > that is, <Cristiane> is the Latin equivalent of English
              > <Cristiana's>. The Latin nominative case form (what you want for
              > registering a name) would be <Cristiana>.
              >
              > It is very likely that the Scots language form of <Cristiana> --
              the
              > one that would be most often used when speaking, since most folks
              > spoke Scots rather than Latin -- was pronounced like <Cristian>,
              > however it was spelled, rather than pronounced with an <-a> on the
              > end of it like the Latin form. However, documenting a Scots
              language
              > spelling of the name for the early 15th century is difficult
              because
              > in that period most Scottish documents were in Latin.
              >
              > Evidence for the Latin nominative case spelling <Cristiana> can
              also
              > be found in Black, s.n. SMALL: "Cristiana, widow of Thomas Small,
              > held the vill of Estir Softlawe in Tueidalle, 1360"
              >
              > Black is on the list of works for which you don't need to provide a
              > photocopy of the pages when submitting your documentation to the
              > CoA/Laurel (just quote the relevant bits in your documentation and
              > cite the relevant entries).
              >
              > Another reference (which actually is citing Black) is "A List of
              > Feminine Personal Names Found in Scottish Records" by Talan Gwynek
              > (Brian M. Scott), at
              > http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/talan/scottishfem/
              >
              > Evidence (documentation) for the surname can also be found in
              Black,
              > s.n. PAXTON. Black lists these examples from around 1400:
              >
              > Patrick de Paxtoun, 1376
              > Patrick de Paxtoun 1395
              > James de Paxtoun 1453
              >
              > Again, these names are in Latin (although I suspect that Black has
              > Anglicized the given names -- I suspect they were "Patricius" and
              > "Jacobus" in the original documents).
              >
              > So <Cristiana de Paxtoun> would be an excellent Latin form of the
              > name of a late 14th/early 15th century Lowlander, which can be
              easily
              > documented for submission to the SCA College of Arms for
              registration.
              >
              > In Scots, circa 1380-1420, she would probably be known as <Cristian
              > of Paxtoun>. In a bit of Scots language text from 1400 from
              Dickinson
              > _Early Records of the Burgh of Aberdeen: 1317, 1398-1407_ (p. 174),
              I
              > found "Item. fra Thom of Paxtoun a cofir, ii s." (translated into
              > modern English: 'Item. From Thom of Paxtoun, a coffer, 2
              > schillings'), showing that in Scots, the Latin <de> was transformed
              > to <of>.
              >
              > Now, go a bit later in time, when there is more Scots language
              > records, and you would get to have more fun with the spelling (more
              > spelling variations can be documented for the given name). For 16th
              > century spellings of the given name, see:
              >
              > http://www.MedievalScotland.org/scotnames/lowland16/
              >
              > Note that in the 16th century, at least, there are documented
              > examples from Scots language texts of the spelling <Cristiane>. But
              > in the 16th century, the surname would not longer have the <de> in
              > Latin or <of> in Scots: <Cristiane Paxtoun> for a 16th century
              Scots
              > language form (and <Cristiana Paxtoun> for a Latin form).
              > (Unfortunately, Black doesn't seem to have any 16th century
              examples
              > of the surname, so I'm speculating based on the earlier evidence
              and
              > my knowledge of 16th century Scots spelling tendencies in general.)
              >
              > It may be as time goes on you'll stumble across additional
              spellings
              > for the names from documents from the early 15th or 16th century,
              but
              > these are the ones I can find at the moment.
              >
              > Full bibliography info for the books:
              >
              > Black, George F. _The Surnames of Scotland: Their Origin, Meaning,
              > and History_. Edinburgh: Birlinn, 1993. Original edition, The New
              > York Public Library, 1946.
              > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0871041723/medievalscotland
              >
              > Dickinson, William Croft, ed. _Early Records of the Burgh of
              > Aberdeen: 1317, 1398-1407_. Vol. 49, _Publications of The Scottish
              > History Society_. Edinburgh: The Scottish History Society, Third
              > Series, 1957.
              >
              > BTW, for those unfamiliar with the usage, "s.n." in my citations
              > above means "under the name" -- it tells you the header name of the
              > entry in Black to look under, and is more precise than a page
              number.
              >
              > Sharon, ska Effrick
              > --
              > Sharon Krossa, skrossa-ml@M...
              > Resources for Scottish history, names, clothing, language & more:
              > Medieval Scotland - http://www.MedievalScotland.org/
              > The most complete index of reliable web articles about pre-1600
              names:
              > The Medieval Names Archive -
              http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/
            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.