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Re: [albanach] thane - when was first used?

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  • Diana Cosby
    ... ~Joyce, it does, thank you. Do you mind if I post your reply on the writing listserve? Thanks again! Diana -- wulfe6@cox.net
    Message 1 of 6 , Jan 24, 2003
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      "J. Mackenzie" wrote: >From Barrow's FEUDAL BRITAIN:

      > " the origin of the thane is one of the unsolved problems of Scottish
      > history. In view of their English name and nature, thanes are
      > unlikely to have been introduced into Scotland under Norman influence,
      > i.e. after 1093. The probability seems to be that the thane, long
      > familiar of course in Northumbria, was regarded by the Scottish kings
      > as a useful official to have in Scotia, and that the adoption was made
      > easy by the presence north of the Forth of a Celtic officer, the
      > 'toiseach' (chief), not dissimilar to the thane in function." (page
      > 133)
      >
      > " The thanes, whose service consisted in managing the estates of the
      > king or some other great lord, may be found in records, relating to
      > the whole of Scotland from Inverness-shire to Stirling, from the early
      > twelfth century to the reign of Robert 1 and beyond. The thane was
      > subordinate to the sheriff, and his closest equivalent by this date
      > might seem to have been the bailiff of a royal manor or hundred; but
      > since the thane's office was normally heriditary, he ranked higher in
      > the social scale that the royal bailiff, and a few thanes held estates
      > so large that they ranked with knights or lesser barons." (page 232)
      >
      > and from Mackie's HISTORY OF SCOTLAND - The House of Canmore (11th
      > c.): The political success of the House of Canmore went hand in hand
      > with the development of a solid feudal monarchy...the mainspring of
      > the government was the king. According to the new theory he was lord
      > of all the land and was supposed to have granted portions of it in
      > times past to his tenants-in-chief...from the lands which he did not
      > alienate, he drew the old rent, mainly in kind; and possibly the
      > 'thane', though he later developed
      > into a laird, was at first an officer, half royal servant, and half
      > landowner, who looked after a portion of the king's land." (pgs 55-56)
      >
      > Hope this helps,

      ~Joyce, it does, thank you. Do you mind if I post your reply on the
      writing listserve? Thanks again!
      Diana
      --
      wulfe6@...
      http://members.cox.net/wulfe6/
      "Miracles happen to those who believe in them." - Bernard Berenson



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Diana Cosby
      Muirghein wrote: Off the top of my head I know it s period, because Shakespeare uses it in MacBeth. From Act I. Scene III: ~Thank you, Baintighearna Muirghein
      Message 2 of 6 , Jan 24, 2003
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        Muirghein wrote: Off the top of my head I know it's period, because
        Shakespeare uses it in MacBeth. From Act I. Scene III:

        ~Thank you, Baintighearna Muirghein Dhaire Faoilciarach. I appreciate
        your help!

        Diana
        --
        wulfe6@...
        http://members.cox.net/wulfe6/
        "Miracles happen to those who believe in them." - Bernard Berenson



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • J. Mackenzie
        ... Hi Diana - no, I don t mind. Here s the source info: GWS Barrow Feudal Britain The Completion of the Middle Kingdom 1066-1314 Edward Arnold (Publishers)
        Message 3 of 6 , Jan 24, 2003
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          >From: Diana Cosby <wulfe6@...>

          >~Joyce, it does, thank you. Do you mind if I post your reply on the
          >writing listserve? Thanks again!
          >Diana

          Hi Diana - no, I don't mind.
          Here's the source info:

          GWS Barrow
          Feudal Britain
          The Completion of the Middle Kingdom 1066-1314
          Edward Arnold (Publishers) Ltd. 1962


          J.D. Mackie
          A History of Scotland
          Penguin Books
          1967

          also, here's a list of other sources:
          http://www.scottishhistory.com/articles/early/thanes/sherbib.htm

          Joyce



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