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Re: [albanach] thane - when was first used?

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  • J. Mackenzie
    ... (snipped) By chance, does anyone know ... Hello Diana - From Barrow s FEUDAL BRITAIN: the origin of the thane is one of the unsolved problems of Scottish
    Message 1 of 6 , Jan 24, 2003
      >From: Diana Cosby <wulfe6@...>
      >
      (snipped)

      By chance, does anyone know
      >when the title of 'thane' first came into use? I've never heard of it
      >before. Thank you,
      >Diana

      Hello Diana -

      From Barrow's FEUDAL BRITAIN:

      " the origin of the thane is one of the unsolved problems of Scottish
      history. In view of their English name and nature, thanes are unlikely to
      have been introduced into Scotland under Norman influence, i.e. after 1093.
      The probability seems to be that the thane, long familiar of course in
      Northumbria, was regarded by the Scottish kings as a useful official to have
      in Scotia, and that the adoption was made easy by the presence north of the
      Forth of a Celtic officer, the 'toiseach' (chief), not dissimilar to the
      thane in function." (page 133)

      " The thanes, whose service consisted in managing the estates of the king or
      some other great lord, may be found in records, relating to the whole of
      Scotland from Inverness-shire to Stirling, from the early twelfth century to
      the reign of Robert 1 and beyond. The thane was subordinate to the sheriff,
      and his closest equivalent by this date might seem to have been the bailiff
      of a royal manor or hundred; but since the thane's office was normally
      heriditary, he ranked higher in the social scale that the royal bailiff, and
      a few thanes held estates so large that they ranked with knights or lesser
      barons." (page 232)

      and from Mackie's HISTORY OF SCOTLAND - The House of Canmore (11th c.):

      The political success of the House of Canmore went hand in hand with the
      development of a solid feudal monarchy...the mainspring of the government
      was the king. According to the new theory he was lord of all the land and
      was supposed to have granted portions of it in times past to his
      tenants-in-chief...from the lands which he did not alienate, he drew the old
      rent, mainly in kind; and possibly the 'thane', though he later developed
      into a laird, was at first an officer, half royal servant, and half
      landowner, who looked after a portion of the king's land." (pgs 55-56)

      Hope this helps,

      Joyce






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    • Diana Cosby
      ... ~Joyce, it does, thank you. Do you mind if I post your reply on the writing listserve? Thanks again! Diana -- wulfe6@cox.net
      Message 2 of 6 , Jan 24, 2003
        "J. Mackenzie" wrote: >From Barrow's FEUDAL BRITAIN:

        > " the origin of the thane is one of the unsolved problems of Scottish
        > history. In view of their English name and nature, thanes are
        > unlikely to have been introduced into Scotland under Norman influence,
        > i.e. after 1093. The probability seems to be that the thane, long
        > familiar of course in Northumbria, was regarded by the Scottish kings
        > as a useful official to have in Scotia, and that the adoption was made
        > easy by the presence north of the Forth of a Celtic officer, the
        > 'toiseach' (chief), not dissimilar to the thane in function." (page
        > 133)
        >
        > " The thanes, whose service consisted in managing the estates of the
        > king or some other great lord, may be found in records, relating to
        > the whole of Scotland from Inverness-shire to Stirling, from the early
        > twelfth century to the reign of Robert 1 and beyond. The thane was
        > subordinate to the sheriff, and his closest equivalent by this date
        > might seem to have been the bailiff of a royal manor or hundred; but
        > since the thane's office was normally heriditary, he ranked higher in
        > the social scale that the royal bailiff, and a few thanes held estates
        > so large that they ranked with knights or lesser barons." (page 232)
        >
        > and from Mackie's HISTORY OF SCOTLAND - The House of Canmore (11th
        > c.): The political success of the House of Canmore went hand in hand
        > with the development of a solid feudal monarchy...the mainspring of
        > the government was the king. According to the new theory he was lord
        > of all the land and was supposed to have granted portions of it in
        > times past to his tenants-in-chief...from the lands which he did not
        > alienate, he drew the old rent, mainly in kind; and possibly the
        > 'thane', though he later developed
        > into a laird, was at first an officer, half royal servant, and half
        > landowner, who looked after a portion of the king's land." (pgs 55-56)
        >
        > Hope this helps,

        ~Joyce, it does, thank you. Do you mind if I post your reply on the
        writing listserve? Thanks again!
        Diana
        --
        wulfe6@...
        http://members.cox.net/wulfe6/
        "Miracles happen to those who believe in them." - Bernard Berenson



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Diana Cosby
        Muirghein wrote: Off the top of my head I know it s period, because Shakespeare uses it in MacBeth. From Act I. Scene III: ~Thank you, Baintighearna Muirghein
        Message 3 of 6 , Jan 24, 2003
          Muirghein wrote: Off the top of my head I know it's period, because
          Shakespeare uses it in MacBeth. From Act I. Scene III:

          ~Thank you, Baintighearna Muirghein Dhaire Faoilciarach. I appreciate
          your help!

          Diana
          --
          wulfe6@...
          http://members.cox.net/wulfe6/
          "Miracles happen to those who believe in them." - Bernard Berenson



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • J. Mackenzie
          ... Hi Diana - no, I don t mind. Here s the source info: GWS Barrow Feudal Britain The Completion of the Middle Kingdom 1066-1314 Edward Arnold (Publishers)
          Message 4 of 6 , Jan 24, 2003
            >From: Diana Cosby <wulfe6@...>

            >~Joyce, it does, thank you. Do you mind if I post your reply on the
            >writing listserve? Thanks again!
            >Diana

            Hi Diana - no, I don't mind.
            Here's the source info:

            GWS Barrow
            Feudal Britain
            The Completion of the Middle Kingdom 1066-1314
            Edward Arnold (Publishers) Ltd. 1962


            J.D. Mackie
            A History of Scotland
            Penguin Books
            1967

            also, here's a list of other sources:
            http://www.scottishhistory.com/articles/early/thanes/sherbib.htm

            Joyce



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