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Summer clothing

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  • nateprentice <prentice@ssw.upenn.edu>
    What would late 16th century Scot men wear during hot summers? I am having a hard time imagining that they would continue to wear just a leine and Great Kilt
    Message 1 of 9 , Jan 5, 2003
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      What would late 16th century Scot men wear during hot summers? I am
      having a hard time imagining that they would continue to wear just a
      leine and Great Kilt when the sun is beating down on them.

      Alisdar
    • Sharon L. Krossa
      ... What hot summers? ;-) ... If it got too hot for a plaid (worn belted or otherwise), I expect they quite naturally took off the plaid, as modernly we would
      Message 2 of 9 , Jan 5, 2003
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        At 3:45 AM +0000 1/6/03, nateprentice <prentice@...> wrote:
        >What would late 16th century Scot men wear during hot summers?

        What hot summers? ;-)

        >I am
        >having a hard time imagining that they would continue to wear just a
        >leine and Great Kilt when the sun is beating down on them.

        If it got too hot for a plaid (worn belted or otherwise), I expect
        they quite naturally took off the plaid, as modernly we would take
        off a coat when it got too hot. (That is, they wore a leine & ionar
        rather than a leine, ionar, and plaid.)

        Remember that in the late 16th century, the plaid is an outer
        garment, a mantle/cloak serving more or less the same function as a
        coat or warm jacket does modernly. They put it on when they were
        cold, and took it off when they were warm (such as indoors or on a
        warm day).

        [The main problem we have modernly understanding the 16th century
        plaid worn belted or "great kilt" is that because of our familiarity
        with the modern small kilt, we tend to think of the belted plaid as
        being a garment like a skirt or trousers, that was put on in the
        morning and only taken off again before bed, when the evidence
        indicates that in the 16th century it was a garment like a coat or
        warm jacket, put on and taken off and put on again and taken off
        again throughout the day as needed.]

        Sharon, ska Affrick
        --
        Sharon L. Krossa, skrossa-ml@...
      • malkin7@aol.com
        In a message dated 01/06/2003 12:13:04 AM Mountain Standard Time, ... Consequently would one have worn a belt around the leine? To keep it from getting in the
        Message 3 of 9 , Jan 6, 2003
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          In a message dated 01/06/2003 12:13:04 AM Mountain Standard Time,
          skrossa-ml@... writes:


          > [The main problem we have modernly understanding the 16th century
          > plaid worn belted or "great kilt" is that because of our familiarity
          > with the modern small kilt, we tend to think of the belted plaid as
          > being a garment like a skirt or trousers, that was put on in the
          > morning and only taken off again before bed, when the evidence
          > indicates that in the 16th century it was a garment like a coat or
          > warm jacket, put on and taken off and put on again and taken off
          > again throughout the day as needed.]
          >
          >

          Consequently would one have worn a belt around the leine? To keep it from
          getting in the way? Just wondering.
          Heleyne


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Steven Kennedy
          ... What would late 16th century Scot men wear during hot summers? I am having a hard time imagining that they would continue to wear just a leine and Great
          Message 4 of 9 , Jan 6, 2003
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            -----Original Message-----
            What would late 16th century Scot men wear during hot summers? I am
            having a hard time imagining that they would continue to wear just a
            leine and Great Kilt when the sun is beating down on them.

            Alisdar
            -----------------------

            Well, if you lived on the Borders, you wouldn't be wearing such barbarian
            clothing anyway.

            Hob


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • William Fleming
            I am no expert but I will tell you what I do. In the summer I wear a leine made of light linnen or cotton with an open leather jerkin and cap. The plaid sits
            Message 5 of 9 , Jan 6, 2003
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              I am no expert but I will tell you what I do. In the summer I wear a leine
              made of light linnen or cotton with an open leather jerkin and cap. The
              plaid sits aside until it gets cold or starts raining. The light weight
              leines I have are quite cool and loose fitting. Besides I believe that my
              cousin Eogan (who is the authority I tend to trust in matters of Highland
              garments) has stated that the leine and kilt are not contemporary.

              --Ruaidhri

              "nateprentice " wrote:

              > What would late 16th century Scot men wear during hot summers? I am
              > having a hard time imagining that they would continue to wear just a
              > leine and Great Kilt when the sun is beating down on them.
              >
              > Alisdar
            • Sharon L. Krossa
              ... I am more and more of the opinion that in the 16th century, whether he wore a plaid or not, a man wore a belt around his leine, just as the Irish did.
              Message 6 of 9 , Jan 6, 2003
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                At 11:48 AM -0500 1/6/03, malkin7@... wrote:
                >In a message dated 01/06/2003 12:13:04 AM Mountain Standard Time,
                >skrossa-ml@... writes:
                >
                > > [The main problem we have modernly understanding the 16th century
                > > plaid worn belted or "great kilt" is that because of our familiarity
                > > with the modern small kilt, we tend to think of the belted plaid as
                > > being a garment like a skirt or trousers, that was put on in the
                > > morning and only taken off again before bed, when the evidence
                > > indicates that in the 16th century it was a garment like a coat or
                > > warm jacket, put on and taken off and put on again and taken off
                > > again throughout the day as needed.]
                >
                >Consequently would one have worn a belt around the leine? To keep it from
                >getting in the way? Just wondering.

                I am more and more of the opinion that in the 16th century, whether
                he wore a plaid or not, a man wore a belt around his leine, just as
                the Irish did. Think Irish clothing with a plaid added afterwards --
                how did the Irish wear a leine? Since you aren't going to want have
                to rearrange your leine every time you put on or take off your
                "coat"... yes, I think one would have worn a belt around the leine ;-)

                Sharon
                --
                Sharon L. Krossa, skrossa-ml@...
              • Sharon L. Krossa
                ... Remember that leine just means shirt -- a 21st century T-shirt is a leine! So even the 18th century and later male skirt (a kilt proper) is
                Message 7 of 9 , Jan 6, 2003
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                  At 1:46 PM -0500 1/6/03, William Fleming wrote:
                  >I am no expert but I will tell you what I do. In the summer I wear a leine
                  >made of light linnen or cotton with an open leather jerkin and cap. The
                  >plaid sits aside until it gets cold or starts raining. The light weight
                  >leines I have are quite cool and loose fitting. Besides I believe that my
                  >cousin Eogan (who is the authority I tend to trust in matters of Highland
                  >garments) has stated that the leine and kilt are not contemporary.

                  Remember that "leine" just means "shirt" -- a 21st century T-shirt is
                  a leine! So even the 18th century and later male skirt (a kilt
                  proper) is contemporary with the leine -- just different styles of
                  leintean (shirts) than in the 16th century, etc.

                  I think what Eoghan has suggested is that the very late 16th century
                  plaid worn belted (modernly called "belted plaid" or "great kilt")
                  is not contemporary with the particular 16th century Gaelic style of
                  shirt that had immensely large sleeves (the ones shown in the 16th
                  century drawings of Irish). However, a plaid worn _unbelted_ is
                  undoubtedly contemporary with the large sleeved Gaelic-style shirts
                  worn earlier in the 16th century. The question is about the specific
                  timing -- whether the style of _belting_ plaids started before or
                  after the large-sleeved shirts went out of style...

                  Sharon
                  --
                  Sharon L. Krossa, skrossa-ml@...
                • Matt Newsome
                  ... Somewhat true, but not entirely. The leine and the belted plaid may have had a brief time where their use overlapped. As previously stated a million
                  Message 8 of 9 , Jan 6, 2003
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                    William Fleming wrote:

                    > Besides I believe that my
                    > cousin Eogan (who is the authority I tend to
                    > trust in matters of Highland
                    > garments) has stated that the leine and kilt
                    > are not contemporary.

                    Somewhat true, but not entirely. The leine and
                    the belted plaid may have had a brief time where
                    their use overlapped. As previously stated a
                    million times on this list, the earliest
                    documented use of the belted plaid was 1594.
                    And we also know from historic record that, in
                    Scotland at least, the leine seems to dissapear
                    rather quickly after 1600, with the English
                    style shirt becoming more popular. I tend to
                    think that this is due to the fact that the
                    belted plaid was rapidly becoming the dominant
                    mode of dress for the Highland male after this
                    period, and so the large leine would have been
                    superfluous.

                    However, considering that the belted plaid may
                    have been worn slightly earlier than 1594, and
                    the leine may have lingered in some places a bit
                    into the early 1600's, there is a brief period
                    when the two would have likely coincided.

                    Aye,
                    Eogan

                    --
                    Matthew A. C. Newsome
                    Curator of the Scottish Tartans Museum
                    Clan MacQuarrie
                    -
                    SCA: Tighearn Eoghan Og mac Labhrainn
                    Sacred Stone Persuivant
                    -
                    WWW.ALBANACH.ORG
                    -
                    1 out of every 4 babies in America dies of
                    CHOICE
                  • Sharon L. Krossa
                    ... That is, the particular enormously large sleeved style shirt worn by 16th century Gaels. The Gaelic word leine is also used for a modern, 21st century
                    Message 9 of 9 , Jan 6, 2003
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                      At 4:52 PM -0500 1/6/03, Matt Newsome wrote:
                      >Somewhat true, but not entirely. The leine and
                      >the belted plaid may have had a brief time where
                      >their use overlapped. As previously stated a
                      >million times on this list, the earliest
                      >documented use of the belted plaid was 1594.
                      >And we also know from historic record that, in
                      >Scotland at least, the leine seems to dissapear

                      That is, the particular enormously large sleeved style shirt worn by
                      16th century Gaels. The Gaelic word "leine" is also used for a
                      modern, 21st century T-shirt, so "the leine" has still to this day
                      not yet disappeared -- only the particular 16th century enormously
                      large sleeved style of shirt.

                      >rather quickly after 1600, with the English
                      >style shirt becoming more popular.

                      And also called in Gaelic "leine" ;-)

                      >I tend to
                      >think that this is due to the fact that the
                      >belted plaid was rapidly becoming the dominant
                      >mode of dress for the Highland male after this
                      >period, and so the large leine would have been
                      >superfluous.

                      I expect that English (in Ireland) and Lowland (in Scotland) [and
                      possibly other European] clothing style influences also played a
                      part. If you look at the 17th, 18th, and 19th century styles of
                      shirts, doublets/jackets, etc., worn with either belted plaids or
                      modern kilts, the style and fashion in general follow the broader
                      British/European style and fashion for shirts and doublets/jackets,
                      etc. There are specific aspects that are uniquely Scottish and/or
                      associated with the belted plaid/modern kilt, but these are only
                      variations on the more widespread British/European theme/style.
                      (Propagation delays undoubtedly also existed for the general styles,
                      varying in length depending on particular period.)

                      >However, considering that the belted plaid may
                      >have been worn slightly earlier than 1594, and
                      >the

                      enormously large sleeved 16th century style

                      >leine may have lingered in some places a bit
                      >into the early 1600's, there is a brief period
                      >when the two would have likely coincided.

                      And that brief period just happens to be the part of SCA period when
                      a plaid worn belted is historically accurate ;-)

                      Sharon, ska Effrick
                      --
                      Sharon L. Krossa, skrossa-ml@...
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