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Re: [albanach] Re: Tighearna / Ban-tighearna

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  • Muirghein
    At 08:42 PM 4/29/02, you wrote: ... Heck, calling yourself Lady Morgan in English (outside an SCA context) can sound pompous, too ;-). Many pagan
    Message 1 of 12 , May 1, 2002
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      At 08:42 PM 4/29/02, you wrote:
      <snip>
      >i have a genaeral problem with directly translating the word lord
      >form english. i have never that ican remember senn the word tighearna
      >or a variant in a title. the lord of the isles is traith nan eilein,
      >and he'sthe supreme gaelic lord in the highlands. the tighearna form
      >i have only seen as lord jesus christ. frankly, and without meaning
      >disrespect to those who use it, it sounds extremely ponpous in
      >gaelic. like you are almost claiming godhead. i remember oneother use
      >for the lord dagda(the good god--and god of harpers) as tighearna
      >dagda.

      Heck, calling yourself "Lady Morgan" in English (outside an SCA context)
      can sound pompous, too ;-). Many pagan priestesses tack "Lady" in front of
      their craft name, which always seemed a bit pretentious to me.

      >now in the sca who is going to pick this bone.
      <snip again>

      Aefric comes to mind ;-).

      >gaels weren't feudal and did't use fuedal names. they use the
      >respectfull form as i earlier indicated. and they used the
      >respectfull case in speaking to a higherperson. like caimar a tha thu?
      <more snip>

      This only addresses when you're speaking to the person, though, not when
      you're speaking about them or the title they use, say, signing a letter.

      But OK, given that the Gaels didn't have/use feudal titles, but that in our
      Society there are people with Gaelic names who _do_ have titles, what is
      your suggestion? In period as I understand, any Gael who became a Count or
      a Duke or etc. would probably have gotten the title from the English, and
      so would likely have gone to (if they weren't already using) an Anglicized
      form of their name, but in the SCA we don't have to cave to the sensenach
      (sp?) like that ;-).

      I suppose we could just use the English titles, in which case I'd be Lady
      Muirghein Dhaire and my husband, Lord Rodhlánn Ó Ceallacháin. Personally,
      thought, I prefer having the titles in Gaelic to match the name. Then the
      question for people who want to do this becomes: what words in Gaelic do we
      use to denote the titles for our admittedly-non-period SCA ranks?

      Not trying to stir worms, just trying to find out what alternatives we have
      given certain non-period things we have to work with,
    • Sharon L. Krossa
      ... What given is this? If by feudal titles , you mean titles like the English and French and Lowland Scottish, then yes indeed the Scottish Gaels had such
      Message 2 of 12 , May 1, 2002
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        At 8:29 AM -0700 5/1/02, Muirghein wrote:
        >But OK, given that the Gaels didn't have/use feudal titles,

        What "given" is this? If by "feudal titles", you mean titles like the
        English and French and Lowland Scottish, then yes indeed the Scottish
        Gaels had such titles. (There wasn't, however, anything particularly
        "feudal" about them.)

        >but that in our
        >Society there are people with Gaelic names who _do_ have titles, what is
        >your suggestion? In period as I understand, any Gael who became a Count or
        >a Duke or etc. would probably have gotten the title from the English,

        Well, not if they were Scottish Gaels, I wouldn't think -- at least
        not normally. In Ireland that was probably true, however.

        >and
        >so would likely have gone to (if they weren't already using) an Anglicized
        >form of their name,

        Names *and titles* were translated to suit the language being used at
        the time. So the Earl of Argyll was the "Earl of Argyll" in Scots and
        English, but in Gaelic he was "Iarrla Errghaodheal" and the like (as
        he actually shows up in a surviving treaty written in Gaelic in
        Scotland from the 16th century).

        >but in the SCA we don't have to cave to the sensenach
        >(sp?) like that ;-).

        It's not "caving to the Sassanach" -- it's being medieval ;-)

        >I suppose we could just use the English titles, in which case I'd be Lady
        >Muirghein Dhaire and my husband, Lord Rodhlánn Ó Ceallacháin. Personally,
        >thought, I prefer having the titles in Gaelic to match the name. Then the
        >question for people who want to do this becomes: what words in Gaelic do we
        >use to denote the titles for our admittedly-non-period SCA ranks?

        See my other post. But until someone sits down and does the work, for
        the time being, I see nothing wrong with using <Tighearna Eoghan> or
        <Baintighearna Muirghean>, etc., for names that are actually in
        Gaelic (including being in Gaelic spelling -- for Anglicized names, I
        would recommend <Lord> and <Lady>).

        Sharon, ska Effrick
        --
        Sharon L. Krossa, krossa@...
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