Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [albanach] Name that piper

Expand Messages
  • Sharon L. Krossa
    ... Unfortunately, no, to the best of my knowledge there isn t any evidence for any kind of bagpipes in Gaelic Scotland in that period. And the earliest
    Message 1 of 22 , Jan 31, 2002
    • 0 Attachment
      At 2:37 PM -0800 1/31/02, Muirghein wrote:
      >We have a new member of the clan who'd like a name appropriate to the late
      >13th/early 14th c. Highlands (iow, Gaelic). He'd like to have the
      >descriptor "the piper" in there, so I have a couple of questions.
      >
      >Is having "the piper" in Gaelic a reasonable name element for this time
      >period? As in, was this something a person might have been known for? I
      >know the "modern" bagpipes don't go back that far, but I seem to recall
      >there was an earlier relative of them in use.

      Unfortunately, no, to the best of my knowledge there isn't any
      evidence for any kind of bagpipes in Gaelic Scotland in that period.
      And the earliest evidence for bagpipes (any kind) in Scotland is for
      Lowland Scotland, not Highland (and I believe importing a piper from
      England!) -- but also later than the 14th century (15th century, if I
      recall correctly). References to bagpipes in Gaelic Scotland show up
      only in the mid-16th century.

      >His name will probably be
      >"[given] [descriptor] mac [patronymic]," since I'm assuming that "[given]
      >mac [patronymic] [descriptor]" means the descriptor applies to the father.

      This is true, but I do not believe a "descriptor" meaning "piper"
      would be historically plausible in the 14th century (or probably even
      in period at all -- and I'd want to see a specific historical example
      in a Gaelic name before deciding otherwise.)

      Now, if he wanted to be a 16th century Lowlander, he could be Thomas
      Piper no problem ;-)

      >How common/uncommon was it for a son to have the same given name as his
      >father? Our piper is looking at Toma's mac Toma's (with "the piper" stuck
      >in where appropriate and with whatever lenitions and other grammatical
      >tweeks need to be made).

      Common enough. I can't find any examples in Scottish Gaelic atm, but
      looking at Irish sources at the CELT archive (http://www.ucc.ie/celt)
      the fairly consistent spelling I find is <Tomas>, often with an
      accent on the <a>, often not, and even sometimes with an accent on
      both the <o> and the <a>. So this would give:

      Tomas mac Tomais

      In Black, s.n. MACTHOMAS, there are examples of Anglicized names of
      Scottish Gaels that indicate that <Tomas> was used in Gaelic
      Scotland, although I don't find any that specifically support use by
      Scottish Gaels in the 14th century (all pretty much 16th century).
      But Tomas is common enough in Gaelic Ireland and non-Gaelic Scotland
      that I expect it was used at least occasionally in Gaelic Scotland
      from around the 14th century. Oh, wait, in Black s.n. THOMAS I find
      reference to <Thomas filius Maldoueny> in the middle of the 13th
      century, who may have been a Gael based on his father's name. Ah, and
      even better, s.n. MACTAVISH I find ample evidence of use by Gaels in
      the 14th century, including <Doncan M'Thamais> in 1355. Again, note
      that these examples were recorded in Scots and Latin, not in Gaelic -
      -they help to establish some form of the name used in Gaelic, but not
      to establish the Gaelic spelling. Also, it does not appear that the
      \v\ pronunciation (as shown by MacTavish) shows up until later (I'd
      have to do more research than I have time for to really get into that
      issue, though)

      So, yes, <Tomas mac Tomais> would be a fine 14th century Scottish
      Gaelic name, pronounced roughly \TOAM-@ss mahk TOAM-@sh\, with the
      \TOAM\ rhyming with English "roam" and "tome", etc.

      Sharon
      --
      Sharon L. Krossa, krossa@...
    • Lord Taran MacDdraig
      I seem to be in the same boat as this gentle. I am Taran MacDdraig the Warpiper. I have actually found stone carvings and tomb coverings which depict a three
      Message 2 of 22 , Feb 1, 2002
      • 0 Attachment
        I seem to be in the same boat as this gentle. I am
        Taran MacDdraig the Warpiper. I have actually found
        stone carvings and tomb coverings which depict a three
        droned instrument. I continue to hear that the pipes
        are late period but checking with a couple of
        sources, they seem to be around as a three droned for
        longer than what people think.
        I would like to ask this new member to the group,
        where they live, and would they be interested in maybe
        starting a procession of pipers for war????
        Taran
        --- Muirghein <wolfestead@...> wrote:
        > We have a new member of the clan who'd like a name
        > appropriate to the late
        > 13th/early 14th c. Highlands (iow, Gaelic). He'd
        > like to have the
        > descriptor "the piper" in there, so I have a couple
        > of questions.
        >
        > Is having "the piper" in Gaelic a reasonable name
        > element for this time
        > period? As in, was this something a person might
        > have been known for? I
        > know the "modern" bagpipes don't go back that far,
        > but I seem to recall
        > there was an earlier relative of them in use. His
        > name will probably be
        > "[given] [descriptor] mac [patronymic]," since I'm
        > assuming that "[given]
        > mac [patronymic] [descriptor]" means the descriptor
        > applies to the father.
        >
        > How common/uncommon was it for a son to have the
        > same given name as his
        > father? Our piper is looking at Toma's mac Toma's
        > (with "the piper" stuck
        > in where appropriate and with whatever lenitions and
        > other grammatical
        > tweeks need to be made).
        >
        > Thanks!
        >
        > YiS,
        > Baintighearna Muirghein Dhaire an Faoilciarach /|\
        > Blue Mountain Cornet (herald) and Dreiburgen Web
        > Minister
        > http://www.dreiburgen.org (ICQ
        > 12594533)
        > (any posts to e-mail lists do not reflect official
        > opinions
        > unless specifically stated otherwise)
        >
        >


        =====
        Taran MacDdraig-aka The Warpiper from Black Dragon Keep
        -aka Taran Warpiper Seneschal for Black Dragon Keep
        -Heavy Marshal, Chirurgeon
        -Lance Commander of Dragon's Lawe
        -Dragon Brother of SchrekenDrake
        -Piper for hire, Dragons rescued, Damsels slain,no price to big or job too small,have haggis will travel

        __________________________________________________
        Do You Yahoo!?
        Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!
        http://auctions.yahoo.com
      • Lord Taran MacDdraig
        I seem to be in the same boat as this gentle. I am Taran MacDdraig the Warpiper. I have actually found stone carvings and tomb coverings which depict a three
        Message 3 of 22 , Feb 1, 2002
        • 0 Attachment
          I seem to be in the same boat as this gentle. I am
          Taran MacDdraig the Warpiper. I have actually found
          stone carvings and tomb coverings which depict a three
          droned instrument. I continue to hear that the pipes
          are late period but checking with a couple of
          sources, they seem to be around as a three droned for
          longer than what people think.
          I would like to ask this new member to the group,
          where they live, and would they be interested in maybe
          starting a procession of pipers for war????
          What brand do you play.
          Taran
          --- Muirghein <wolfestead@...> wrote:
          > We have a new member of the clan who'd like a name
          > appropriate to the late
          > 13th/early 14th c. Highlands (iow, Gaelic). He'd
          > like to have the
          > descriptor "the piper" in there, so I have a couple
          > of questions.
          >
          > Is having "the piper" in Gaelic a reasonable name
          > element for this time
          > period? As in, was this something a person might
          > have been known for? I
          > know the "modern" bagpipes don't go back that far,
          > but I seem to recall
          > there was an earlier relative of them in use. His
          > name will probably be
          > "[given] [descriptor] mac [patronymic]," since I'm
          > assuming that "[given]
          > mac [patronymic] [descriptor]" means the descriptor
          > applies to the father.
          >
          > How common/uncommon was it for a son to have the
          > same given name as his
          > father? Our piper is looking at Toma's mac Toma's
          > (with "the piper" stuck
          > in where appropriate and with whatever lenitions and
          > other grammatical
          > tweeks need to be made).
          >
          > Thanks!
          >
          > YiS,
          > Baintighearna Muirghein Dhaire an Faoilciarach /|\
          > Blue Mountain Cornet (herald) and Dreiburgen Web
          > Minister
          > http://www.dreiburgen.org (ICQ
          > 12594533)
          > (any posts to e-mail lists do not reflect official
          > opinions
          > unless specifically stated otherwise)
          >
          >


          =====
          Taran MacDdraig-aka The Warpiper from Black Dragon Keep
          -aka Taran Warpiper Seneschal for Black Dragon Keep
          -Heavy Marshal, Chirurgeon
          -Lance Commander of Dragon's Lawe
          -Dragon Brother of SchrekenDrake
          -Piper for hire, Dragons rescued, Damsels slain,no price to big or job too small,have haggis will travel

          __________________________________________________
          Do You Yahoo!?
          Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!
          http://auctions.yahoo.com
        • Matthew A. C. Newsome
          ... I seem to remember reading an article a few monts ago about this. It seems that the pipes were played in Scotland first and foremost as art or folk
          Message 4 of 22 , Feb 1, 2002
          • 0 Attachment
            Steven Kennedy wrote:

            > What about pipes played at/during battles? Or is that later/a myth?

            I seem to remember reading an article a few monts ago about this. It
            seems that the pipes were played in Scotland first and foremost as art
            or folk instruments, not martial. I don't know if they first began to
            be played as martial instruments within our period or not, but if it
            was, it would be late period. I'll try to find that article and post
            the information to this list.
            Aye,
            Eogan
          • Sharon L. Krossa
            ... What is the evidence for this? (Not just what is your source -- that appears to be Farmer, but what actual evidence is provided by Farmer or whoever as to
            Message 5 of 22 , Feb 1, 2002
            • 0 Attachment
              At 9:21 PM -0500 1/31/02, Matthew A. C. Newsome wrote:
              >I'll let Sharon address the Gaelic name issues, but I can speak as to
              >the bagpipes. There was an early form of bagpipe being used in Scotland
              >as early as the 12th century, called the "chorus" (not sure what it
              >might have been in Gaelic). It consisted of a bag, a blowpipe, and a
              >chanter or a drone. It wasn't like the modern Great Highland Bagpipe,
              >and was used more for "art" music than martial music.

              What is the evidence for this? (Not just what is your source -- that
              appears to be Farmer, but what actual evidence is provided by Farmer
              or whoever as to this?)

              Sharon
              --
              Sharon L. Krossa, krossa@...
            • Sharon L. Krossa
              ... Stone carvings where, and when were they carved (and by whom)? ... What sources? And in what places (geographically) do they say a three droned pipe has
              Message 6 of 22 , Feb 1, 2002
              • 0 Attachment
                At 5:10 AM -0800 2/1/02, Lord Taran MacDdraig wrote:
                >I seem to be in the same boat as this gentle. I am
                >Taran MacDdraig the Warpiper. I have actually found
                >stone carvings and tomb coverings which depict a three
                >droned instrument.

                Stone carvings where, and when were they carved (and by whom)?

                >I continue to hear that the pipes
                >are late period but checking with a couple of
                >sources, they seem to be around as a three droned for
                >longer than what people think.

                What sources? And in what places (geographically) do they say a three
                droned pipe has been around for longer than people think -- what
                specific dates?

                The problem with bagpipes is not that the didn't exist -- it's that
                there isn't any evidence they existed in Gaelic Scotland earlier than
                very late period (16th century).

                In the Middle Ages bagpipes were actually a fairly common instrument
                in Europe from the 12th century or so, but being common generally in
                Europe is not the same as existing specifically in Gaelic Scotland.

                We hashed out the bagpipe issue some time ago here on Albanach, and
                going over much of that discussion it seems we never were able to
                come up with actual evidence for bagpipes in Gaelic Scotland prior to
                the 16th century, although we did find evidence for Lowland Scotland
                in the 15th. But Lowland Scotland isn't Highland Scotland, just as
                Europe isn't Gaelic Scotland (or even Lowland Scotland ;-)

                If being a bagpipe playing Scottish Gael is important to someone, I
                recommend choosing a 16th century persona -- that is, set your
                persona in a period when we know from hard evidence that there were
                bagpipes in Gaelic Scotland, and avoid the issue of trying to justify
                something a century or two earlier than there is evidence for it.

                BTW, someone asked if bagpipes were played in war in Gaelic Scotland.
                The answer is apparently yes _for the 16th century_ (and clearly
                later as well) -- some of that 16th century evidence is apparently
                references to bagpipes being played by Scottish Gaels in battle, or
                rather, there is references to playing bagpipes as an incitement to
                battle. (So before battle at least if not necessarily during battle.)

                Sharon
                --
                Sharon L. Krossa, krossa@...
              • Sharon L. Krossa
                ... In most of Europe the bagpipes were used as above, but when we do start getting evidence for use in Gaelic Scotland and Ireland (in the mid-16th century),
                Message 7 of 22 , Feb 1, 2002
                • 0 Attachment
                  At 8:41 AM -0500 2/1/02, Matthew A. C. Newsome wrote:
                  >Steven Kennedy wrote:
                  >
                  > > What about pipes played at/during battles? Or is that later/a myth?
                  >
                  >I seem to remember reading an article a few monts ago about this. It
                  >seems that the pipes were played in Scotland first and foremost as art
                  >or folk instruments, not martial. I don't know if they first began to
                  >be played as martial instruments within our period or not, but if it
                  >was, it would be late period. I'll try to find that article and post
                  >the information to this list.

                  In most of Europe the bagpipes were used as above, but when we do
                  start getting evidence for use in Gaelic Scotland and Ireland (in the
                  mid-16th century), the uses and role of the bagpipes was rather
                  different.

                  Back in 2000, Eogan quoted a long passage from

                  From the book _The Highland Bagpipe and Its Music_ by Roderick D. Cannon,
                  John Donald Publishers Ltd, Edinburgh, 1995.

                  pg. 7
                  The bagpipe in Scotland and Ireland

                  I quote below some relevant bits:

                  -----
                  ... Evidence from the Gaelic regions
                  is later still: for the Scottish Highlands, a reference in 1549, and for
                  Ireland several mentions in history and literature of the late Tudor period.
                  We shall return to these below.
                  ....
                  At the battle of Pinkie near Edinburgh, in 1549, an army of
                  Highlanders was involved 'and while the French prepared for combat, the wild
                  Scots incited themselves to arms by the sound of their bagpipes' (Beague,
                  1556). In 1581 the historian George Buchanan thought it worth mentioning
                  that 'instead of the tumpet they use the bagpipe' (Collinson, 1975). Exactly
                  similar things are reported in Ireland: Irish soldiers marching to London in
                  1544 'with bagpipes before them,' and in 1566, playing bagpipes in battle
                  instead of trumpets. The use of bagpipes in cattle raids is mentioned in
                  1561, and most striking of all, 'with it also they accompany their dead to
                  the grave, making such sorrowful sounds as to invite, nay comel the
                  bystanders to weep.'
                  ....
                  ----

                  Note that the above is reference to use in Gaelic Scotland -- use in
                  Lowland Scotland was somewhat earlier (15th century IIRC) and
                  different (apparently more like use in England and the continent).

                  Sharon
                  --
                  Sharon L. Krossa, krossa@...
                • Lord Taran MacDdraig
                  As being somewhat new to this area, historical acuaracy, I do thank you for your hepl on this issue. I have been to webpages and belong to a couple of
                  Message 8 of 22 , Feb 1, 2002
                  • 0 Attachment
                    As being somewhat new to this area, historical
                    acuaracy, I do thank you for your hepl on this issue.
                    I have been to webpages and belong to a couple of
                    different web groups along with pipers,,, I have
                    played for 4 years now and I am still learning. I do
                    understand that their are no current Laurels in this
                    area to learn from. I think I am the only piper in
                    the Midrealm?????? I olny see pipers at Pennsic and
                    never really get to set down with them and discuss
                    this. If there is any Laurels out there who would
                    wish to help a piper learn more and be more period, I
                    am open for instruction....
                    Thank you
                    Taran
                    --- "Sharon L. Krossa" <krossa@...>
                    wrote:
                    > At 5:10 AM -0800 2/1/02, Lord Taran MacDdraig wrote:
                    > >I seem to be in the same boat as this gentle. I am
                    > >Taran MacDdraig the Warpiper. I have actually found
                    > >stone carvings and tomb coverings which depict a
                    > three
                    > >droned instrument.
                    >
                    > Stone carvings where, and when were they carved (and
                    > by whom)?
                    >
                    > >I continue to hear that the pipes
                    > >are late period but checking with a couple of
                    > >sources, they seem to be around as a three droned
                    > for
                    > >longer than what people think.
                    >
                    > What sources? And in what places (geographically) do
                    > they say a three
                    > droned pipe has been around for longer than people
                    > think -- what
                    > specific dates?
                    >
                    > The problem with bagpipes is not that the didn't
                    > exist -- it's that
                    > there isn't any evidence they existed in Gaelic
                    > Scotland earlier than
                    > very late period (16th century).
                    >
                    > In the Middle Ages bagpipes were actually a fairly
                    > common instrument
                    > in Europe from the 12th century or so, but being
                    > common generally in
                    > Europe is not the same as existing specifically in
                    > Gaelic Scotland.
                    >
                    > We hashed out the bagpipe issue some time ago here
                    > on Albanach, and
                    > going over much of that discussion it seems we never
                    > were able to
                    > come up with actual evidence for bagpipes in Gaelic
                    > Scotland prior to
                    > the 16th century, although we did find evidence for
                    > Lowland Scotland
                    > in the 15th. But Lowland Scotland isn't Highland
                    > Scotland, just as
                    > Europe isn't Gaelic Scotland (or even Lowland
                    > Scotland ;-)
                    >
                    > If being a bagpipe playing Scottish Gael is
                    > important to someone, I
                    > recommend choosing a 16th century persona -- that
                    > is, set your
                    > persona in a period when we know from hard evidence
                    > that there were
                    > bagpipes in Gaelic Scotland, and avoid the issue of
                    > trying to justify
                    > something a century or two earlier than there is
                    > evidence for it.
                    >
                    > BTW, someone asked if bagpipes were played in war in
                    > Gaelic Scotland.
                    > The answer is apparently yes _for the 16th century_
                    > (and clearly
                    > later as well) -- some of that 16th century evidence
                    > is apparently
                    > references to bagpipes being played by Scottish
                    > Gaels in battle, or
                    > rather, there is references to playing bagpipes as
                    > an incitement to
                    > battle. (So before battle at least if not
                    > necessarily during battle.)
                    >
                    > Sharon
                    > --
                    > Sharon L. Krossa, krossa@...
                    >


                    =====
                    Taran MacDdraig-aka The Warpiper from Black Dragon Keep
                    -aka Taran Warpiper Seneschal for Black Dragon Keep
                    -Heavy Marshal, Chirurgeon
                    -Lance Commander of Dragon's Lawe
                    -Dragon Brother of SchrekenDrake
                    -Piper for hire, Dragons rescued, Damsels slain,no price to big or job too small,have haggis will travel

                    __________________________________________________
                    Do You Yahoo!?
                    Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!
                    http://auctions.yahoo.com
                  • Scott Cross
                    From a 16th century Irish view, bagpipes are illustrated in battle scenes and amoungst Kerns as early as 1550. These bagpies are two drone versions. Also, it
                    Message 9 of 22 , Feb 1, 2002
                    • 0 Attachment
                      From a 16th century Irish view, bagpipes are illustrated in battle scenes
                      and amoungst Kerns as early as 1550. These bagpies are two drone versions.
                      Also, it is not uncommon in Irish names for sons to have their father's
                      name; Neil MacNeil, etc.

                      Finn O'Braenen
                    • Muirghein
                      ... Sorry if that was confusing; the apostrophes were to indicate accents over the preceding vowels, not the posessive. A not-uncommon method of showing
                      Message 10 of 22 , Feb 1, 2002
                      • 0 Attachment
                        At 05:38 PM 1/31/02, Cellach wrote:
                        >The apostrophes make it sound like a late period lowlands name (except for
                        >the 'mac') where they would place the father's name before the son's name,
                        >as in Jock's Will (in order to differentiate him from the hundred other
                        >Wills). I believe (and I'm sure I will be corrected if I'm wrong) that Toma
                        >mac Toma would be more correct, though I don't know how common it was for
                        >sons and fathers to have the same given name in period.

                        Sorry if that was confusing; the apostrophes were to indicate accents over
                        the preceding vowels, not the posessive. A not-uncommon method of showing
                        accents in ascii, at least among heralds :-). Maybe Tom{a'}s mac Tom{a'}s
                        (or Tom{a'}is) is a clearer way of representing this? I got Tom{a'}s out of
                        Woulfe, one of our standard Gaelic name sources.

                        So, being a bagpipe player in the early 1300's in the Highlands is out :-(.
                        If he wants to fudge, were there any _other_ types of pipes that might have
                        been used, so he could still use the name "the piper"? I'm thinking maybe
                        something like the sort you see the Pied Piper playing. I think the time is
                        more important to him than the pipes, but I'm not sure. I KNOW he doesn't
                        want to go Lowlands!

                        YiS,
                        Baintighearna Muirghein Dhaire an Faoilciarach /|\
                        Blue Mountain Cornet (herald) and Dreiburgen Web Minister
                        http://www.dreiburgen.org (ICQ 12594533)
                        (any posts to e-mail lists do not reflect official opinions
                        unless specifically stated otherwise)
                      • Sharon L. Krossa
                        ... Using the {} definitely makes it clearer what you intend! ... Move centuries -- Gaelic but 16th century; then he can be a Scottish Gael and a bagpiper.
                        Message 11 of 22 , Feb 1, 2002
                        • 0 Attachment
                          At 7:43 AM -0800 2/1/02, Muirghein wrote:
                          >At 05:38 PM 1/31/02, Cellach wrote:
                          > >The apostrophes make it sound like a late period lowlands name (except for
                          > >the 'mac') where they would place the father's name before the son's name,
                          > >as in Jock's Will (in order to differentiate him from the hundred other
                          > >Wills). I believe (and I'm sure I will be corrected if I'm wrong) that Toma
                          > >mac Toma would be more correct, though I don't know how common it was for
                          > >sons and fathers to have the same given name in period.
                          >
                          >Sorry if that was confusing; the apostrophes were to indicate accents over
                          >the preceding vowels, not the posessive. A not-uncommon method of showing
                          >accents in ascii, at least among heralds :-). Maybe Tom{a'}s mac Tom{a'}s
                          >(or Tom{a'}is) is a clearer way of representing this? I got Tom{a'}s out of
                          >Woulfe, one of our standard Gaelic name sources.

                          Using the {} definitely makes it clearer what you intend!

                          >So, being a bagpipe player in the early 1300's in the Highlands is out :-(.
                          >If he wants to fudge, were there any _other_ types of pipes that might have
                          >been used, so he could still use the name "the piper"? I'm thinking maybe
                          >something like the sort you see the Pied Piper playing. I think the time is
                          >more important to him than the pipes, but I'm not sure. I KNOW he doesn't
                          >want to go Lowlands!

                          Move centuries -- Gaelic but 16th century; then he can be a Scottish
                          Gael and a bagpiper.

                          However, as to name, I cannot recommend using any kind of "piper" in
                          a name in Scottish Gaelic in period, not even in the 16th century. So
                          far I have no examples of it, from either Scotland or even Ireland.
                          This is not only due to the lack of evidence of bagpipers in Gaelic
                          Scotland until the 16th century, but also due to the sorts of things
                          that tend to get used in Gaelic bynames -- I just haven't found
                          things like "piper" used in period Gaelic bynames, whether in
                          reference to bagpipes or anything else.

                          It is good to keep in mind that you don't need to advertise every
                          aspect and activity of your persona in your name -- in fact, trying
                          to do so will generally lead to a historically implausible name.
                          Rather, look at what kinds of names were used by medieval people from
                          the time/place/etc. of interest, and then make a name like that. In
                          this case, that would mean your standard <Tom{a'} mac Tom{a'}is> with
                          no indication of being a piper.

                          Sharon
                          --
                          Sharon L. Krossa, krossa@...
                        • Matt Newsome
                          ... I m afraid I can t answer this specifically. Yes, my source was Farmer, however I don t own the book. I checked it out through ILL several years back,
                          Message 12 of 22 , Feb 1, 2002
                          • 0 Attachment
                            At Friday, 1 February 2002, you wrote:

                            >What is the evidence for this? (Not just what is your source -- that
                            >appears to be Farmer, but what actual evidence is provided by Farmer
                            >or whoever as to this?)

                            I'm afraid I can't answer this specifically. Yes, my source was
                            Farmer, however I don't own the book. I checked it out through ILL
                            several years back, and wrote my three part article series based
                            on the notes I took while reading (along with information from a
                            few other sources). I would have to get ahold of a copy of Farmer
                            again to find his source. If anyone else has a copy at hand, I could
                            provide the page number that the information was found on.
                            Aye,
                            Eogan

                            Albanach.org
                            Scottish History -- Highland Dress
                          • Matt Newsome
                            ... D. Cannon, ... Thanks for finding this for me, Sharon. This is probably the reference that I was thinking of this morning. Aye, Eogan Albanach.org
                            Message 13 of 22 , Feb 1, 2002
                            • 0 Attachment
                              At Friday, 1 February 2002, you wrote:


                              >Back in 2000, Eogan quoted a long passage from
                              >
                              > From the book _The Highland Bagpipe and Its Music_ by Roderick
                              D. Cannon,
                              >John Donald Publishers Ltd, Edinburgh, 1995.
                              >
                              >pg. 7
                              >The bagpipe in Scotland and Ireland
                              >
                              >I quote below some relevant bits:

                              Thanks for finding this for me, Sharon. This is probably the reference
                              that I was thinking of this morning.
                              Aye,
                              Eogan

                              Albanach.org
                              Scottish History -- Highland Dress
                            • Matt Newsome
                              ... is out :-(. ... might have ... maybe ... the time is ... doesn t ... Two things: 1) One of the great things about the SCA is that it really does not limit
                              Message 14 of 22 , Feb 1, 2002
                              • 0 Attachment
                                At Friday, 01 February 2002, you wrote:


                                >So, being a bagpipe player in the early 1300's in the Highlands
                                is out :-(.
                                >If he wants to fudge, were there any _other_ types of pipes that
                                might have
                                >been used, so he could still use the name "the piper"? I'm thinking
                                maybe
                                >something like the sort you see the Pied Piper playing. I think
                                the time is
                                >more important to him than the pipes, but I'm not sure. I KNOW he
                                doesn't
                                >want to go Lowlands!

                                Two things:

                                1) One of the great things about the SCA is that it really does
                                not limit us to one particular time and place. If you have a 9th
                                century Viking pesona, but happen to really like 16th century Italian
                                style fencing, there is nothing to prevent you from fighting rapier,
                                yet still have your primary persona as a Viking. Same here. If
                                your husband really likes 14th century Gaelic history/culture/clothing
                                (if he can find any info on it) /names, whatever, he can have a persona
                                from that time and place. And if he also plays the bagpipes and
                                wants to play them at events, learn some period songs, hopefully,
                                there is nothing to prevent him from doing that, just because his
                                persona wouldn't have played them.

                                My persona knows Gaelic, Scots, and Latin, and spends quite a bit
                                of time in the company of Benedictine monks. ;-) In real life, at
                                events I speak only English, and hag out with my Viking wife, twelfth
                                century English friends, and late period Cavaliers. It's a mix,
                                you can pick and choose. You can even go so far as to register an
                                alternate persona name if you really get into two different eras
                                or places.

                                2) About the name. Speaking for English (Scots) names, I know that
                                musicians were called "piper" in period if they played any form of
                                pipe, such as a shawm or a recorder (or bagpiper or some other type
                                of reedpipe). So one could be known as a "piper" and never pick
                                up the bagpipes. Perhaps there is some Gaelic equivalent for a person
                                who played shawm or recorder that you could use (assuming the Gaels
                                had those instruments). And if not, remember that when a Gael was
                                outwith Gaeldom, he would not neccesariy use the same name. Tomas
                                mac Tomais is great when everyone knows who the elder Thomas is.
                                It puts you in relation with your family. However, travel down
                                to Langholm on the boders, and who cares if you are Thomas, son of
                                Thomas. Who is this Thomas guy? But if you can carry a tune, then
                                calling yourself Thomas the Piper (or the equivalent) conveys useful
                                information about yourself, and would more likely be used (especially
                                if you were seeking gainful employment as a musician). So maybe
                                your husband would be happy with a Gaelic and a Scots name.
                                Aye,
                                Eogan

                                Albanach.org
                                Scottish History -- Highland Dress
                              • Muirghein
                                ... Um, my husband registered his name several years ago, Rodhlann {O } Ceallach{a }in :-). I m asking for someone who s just starting to play in the SCA. I
                                Message 15 of 22 , Feb 1, 2002
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  At 10:12 AM 2/1/02, you wrote:
                                  >At Friday, 01 February 2002, you wrote:
                                  >
                                  > >So, being a bagpipe player in the early 1300's in the Highlands
                                  >is out :-(.
                                  > >If he wants to fudge, were there any _other_ types of pipes that
                                  >might have
                                  > >been used, so he could still use the name "the piper"? I'm thinking
                                  >maybe
                                  > >something like the sort you see the Pied Piper playing. I think
                                  >the time is
                                  > >more important to him than the pipes, but I'm not sure. I KNOW he
                                  >doesn't
                                  > >want to go Lowlands!
                                  >
                                  >Two things:
                                  >
                                  >1) One of the great things about the SCA is that it really does
                                  >not limit us to one particular time and place. If you have a 9th
                                  >century Viking pesona, but happen to really like 16th century Italian
                                  >style fencing, there is nothing to prevent you from fighting rapier,
                                  >yet still have your primary persona as a Viking. Same here. If
                                  >your husband really likes 14th century Gaelic history/culture/clothing
                                  >(if he can find any info on it) /names, whatever, he can have a persona
                                  >from that time and place. And if he also plays the bagpipes and
                                  >wants to play them at events, learn some period songs, hopefully,
                                  >there is nothing to prevent him from doing that, just because his
                                  >persona wouldn't have played them.

                                  Um, my husband registered his name several years ago, Rodhlann {O'}
                                  Ceallach{a'}in :-). I'm asking for someone who's just starting to play in
                                  the SCA. I think it best to let him develop one persona before he considers
                                  working on a second :-). We're also quite aware the SCA lets you can do
                                  things you persona wouldn't have (how many early 14th c. Highland women
                                  would be herald to a Norman baron, like I am? ;-). The gentleman in
                                  question wants a name for a persona that will be in the same time/place as
                                  we've set the clan, and I was trying to find out how plausible a "piper"
                                  byname was. Apparently the answer is, "not very."

                                  <snip>
                                  >2) About the name. Speaking for English (Scots) names, I know that
                                  >musicians were called "piper" in period if they played any form of
                                  >pipe, such as a shawm or a recorder (or bagpiper or some other type
                                  >of reedpipe). So one could be known as a "piper" and never pick
                                  >up the bagpipes. Perhaps there is some Gaelic equivalent for a person
                                  >who played shawm or recorder that you could use (assuming the Gaels
                                  >had those instruments). And if not, remember that when a Gael was
                                  >outwith Gaeldom, he would not neccesariy use the same name. Tomas
                                  >mac Tomais is great when everyone knows who the elder Thomas is.
                                  >It puts you in relation with your family. However, travel down
                                  >to Langholm on the boders, and who cares if you are Thomas, son of
                                  >Thomas. Who is this Thomas guy? But if you can carry a tune, then
                                  >calling yourself Thomas the Piper (or the equivalent) conveys useful
                                  >information about yourself, and would more likely be used (especially
                                  >if you were seeking gainful employment as a musician). So maybe
                                  >your husband would be happy with a Gaelic and a Scots name.
                                  >Aye,
                                  >Eogan

                                  True about being called different things in different places, but right now
                                  we're just working on which form to *register* :-). At this point, I think
                                  I'll recommend "Tom{a'}s mac Tom{a'}is" (since it appears free of conflict
                                  without need of the descriptor) and let "the piper" be an unregistered
                                  "nickname."

                                  In Service,
                                  Baintighearna Muirghein Dhaire an Faoilciarach /|\
                                  Blue Mountain Cornet (herald) and Dreiburgen Web Minister
                                  http://www.dreiburgen.org (ICQ 12594533)
                                  (any posts to e-mail lists do not reflect official opinions
                                  unless specifically stated otherwise)
                                • Muirghein
                                  I m sorry, after re-reading what I posted it looks like it could come off as snippy, and that s not how I intended it. I ve recently been diagnosed with CRPS
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Feb 1, 2002
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    I'm sorry, after re-reading what I posted it looks like it could come off
                                    as snippy, and that's not how I intended it.

                                    I've recently been diagnosed with CRPS (aka RSD, more info at
                                    [http://silver-gateway.com/crps.html%5d if you're interested). Since so many
                                    people have never heard of it I've been having to do a lot of explaining,
                                    answering the same questions over and over, and dealing with people who
                                    seem to think that treating the triggering pain (which cleared up a few
                                    weeks ago) will fix the CRP. It's been frustrating, and I'm afraid the
                                    irritation is leaking out in other posts. My apologies.

                                    In Service,
                                    Baintighearna Muirghein Dhaire an Faoilciarach /|\
                                    Blue Mountain Cornet (herald) and Dreiburgen Web Minister
                                    http://www.dreiburgen.org (ICQ 12594533)
                                    (any posts to e-mail lists do not reflect official opinions
                                    unless specifically stated otherwise)
                                  • Matt Newsome
                                    An interesting, although probably irrelavent tidbit, since we are talking about this history of the bagpipes as a martial instrument. I picked up the book _The
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Feb 1, 2002
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      An interesting, although probably irrelavent tidbit, since we are
                                      talking about this history of the bagpipes as a martial instrument.


                                      I picked up the book _The Piper in Peace and War_ by C. A. Malcolm,
                                      M.A., Ph.D., first published in London in 1927.

                                      In the chapter entitled "The Bagpipe in Battle," the opening paragraph
                                      reads:
                                      "The earliest of pipers accompanying troops into battle occurs in
                                      the archives of the chiefs of Menzies. Mention is made there of
                                      the hereditary pipers of the clan . . . the M'Intyres, some of whom
                                      accompanied the Clan Menzies to the Battle of Bannockburn. One of
                                      the most highly prized heirlooms of the clan is a bagpipe played
                                      by one of their pipers on that great day."

                                      Of course he then casts a shadow of doubt on what he just said by
                                      stating that the tradition of Scots pipers playing at Bannockburn
                                      is just that -- a tradition, not based on fact. He doesn't say what
                                      these records in the archives are, exactly,or what they say. Read
                                      how he phrased it above. It's unclear whether these supposed archives
                                      actually say that the Menzies clan had a piper at Bannockburn, or
                                      simply that the MacIntyres fought with the Menzies there, and since
                                      the MacIntyres were later to become that clan's heriditary pipers,
                                      it is assumed that they piped. If this supposed set of fourteenth
                                      century bagpipes does exist, it would be nice to know where they
                                      are, who has them, etc.

                                      Anyway, not hard evidence by any means, especially since all other
                                      evidence suggests that this could not be true. But an interesting
                                      tidbit. . .
                                      Aye,
                                      Eogan

                                      Albanach.org
                                      Scottish History -- Highland Dress
                                    • Steven Kennedy
                                      HEY! What s wrong with the lowlands??? ;-) Cellach ... From: Muirghein [mailto:wolfestead@silver-gateway.com] Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 5:43 AM To:
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Feb 1, 2002
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        HEY! What's wrong with the lowlands??? ;-)

                                        Cellach

                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: Muirghein [mailto:wolfestead@...]
                                        Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 5:43 AM
                                        To: albanach@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: RE: [albanach] Name that piper

                                        >snip<
                                        I KNOW he doesn't want to go Lowlands!
                                        <unsnip>


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.