Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [albanach] Re: Late period Scottish costume

Expand Messages
  • Matt Newsome
    ... The authors of both of these sites, myself and Effric, are both on this list and willing to answer questions. Thanks for sharing your notes with us! Aye,
    Message 1 of 10 , Nov 26, 2001
      rowengr@... wrote:

      > Two valuable sites:
      > http://www.medievalscotland.org/
      > http://albanach.org/review.html

      The authors of both of these sites, myself and
      Effric, are both on this list and willing to
      answer questions.

      Thanks for sharing your notes with us!
      Aye,
      Eogan

      --
      Matthew A. C. Newsome
      Curator of the Scottish Tartans Museum
      Clan MacQuarrie
      -
      SCA: Tighearn Eoghan Og mac Labhrainn
      Sacred Stone Persuivant
      -
      WWW.ALBANACH.ORG
    • Sharon L. Krossa
      ... I think we have already privately corresponded on this, but I think we should pool our efforts on this -- I d be delighted to post what you find in poetry
      Message 2 of 10 , Nov 26, 2001
        At 5:52 PM +0000 11/26/01, rowengr@... wrote:
        >I've been involved in some fairly extensive research on Scottish
        >women's clothing (about 25 pages plus footnotes so far, and I've just
        >acquired some new sources that I can peruse once I get through
        >moving.) One of the things I'm doing is extracting clothing
        >references from 15th, 16th and early 17th c Gaelic poetry, as well as
        >a bag full of other period sources. There aren't a lot of *pictures*
        >available, but a fair lot of quotations to work from. I had a chance
        >to meet with the curator for Scottish Material Culture at the Museum
        >of Scotland in Edinburgh in October; it seems he has also had the idea
        >of looking for clothing refs in early poetry. :) He was also kind
        >enough to give me copies of a number of articles from various
        >journals, plus some of his own unpublished lecture notes on various
        >subjects.

        I think we have already privately corresponded on this, but I think
        we should pool our efforts on this -- I'd be delighted to post what
        you find in poetry in my Descriptions and Depictions of Historical
        Scottish Clothing project:

        http://www.MedievalScotland.org/clothing/refs/

        so that others can benefit from what you find. Please email me if
        you're interested (krossa@...) -- or email anyway,
        as I'd like to know more about the curator you spoke to and the
        articles he told you about ;-).

        But this is an interesting lead with regard to decoration (and
        answers the question in my other post ;-).

        >And here are a few snips from my notes:
        >
        >* ~ * ~ * ~ * ~ * ~ * ~ * ~ *
        ><snip>
        >"The dress of the women among them [Scots] is most becoming, for over
        >a gown reaching the feet, and very richly adorned by the Phrygian art
        >[embroidery,] they wear very full cloaks, of several colours, such as
        >I have described - loose and flowing, yet gracefully drawn into folds,
        >as they will." Bishop Lesley of Ross, 1578
        >
        ><McClintock refers to "Phrygian art" as embroidery - I have not yet
        >had time to check him on this point, or to examine the Latin of the
        >original - R>

        There is also the question of which Scots and especially _when_ he is
        describing yet to be sorted and dependant on that original Latin and,
        more significantly, a fuller context from the text than is given in
        the clothing books. McClintock's translation of the men's clothing
        passage uses the past tense, not the present, and the book is about
        the origin of the Scottish people. (In other words, Lesley may not be
        the least bit reliable if he is writing about what was supposedly
        worn long ago in the past.) This has been on my list of things to
        check out for a long time now ;-)

        But this is an interesting lead on the issue of Scottish clothing
        being decorated.

        >decorations, this is not very helpful. It may be noted that all
        >extant depictions of Irish gowns post-date this legislation; however,
        >Bishop Lesley's commentary was written almost forty years after
        >Henry's decree, so presumably the gowns of Scottish ladies were still
        >decorated at the time.

        Except that we don't know whether Lesley is describing contemporary
        dress or historical dress, etc.

        Sharon
        --
        Sharon L. Krossa, krossa@...
      • rowengr@hotmail.com
        ... Which is one reason I mentioned them. ;) ... Most welcome - I m afraid it s becoming something of a minor obsession. It will all be revealed - on
        Message 3 of 10 , Nov 26, 2001
          --- In albanach@y..., Matt Newsome <eogan@a...> wrote:
          > rowengr@h... wrote:
          >
          > > Two valuable sites:
          > > http://www.medievalscotland.org/
          > > http://albanach.org/review.html
          >
          > The authors of both of these sites, myself and
          > Effric, are both on this list and willing to
          > answer questions.

          Which is one reason I mentioned them. ;)

          > Thanks for sharing your notes with us!

          Most welcome - I'm afraid it's becoming something of a minor
          obsession. <g> It will all be revealed - on line or in print -
          eventually....

          Rowen
        • rowengr@hotmail.com
          ... Sounds like a good idea - pooling resources and comparing theories can be very useful. :) I d be pleased to have the quotations listed. One of the sources
          Message 4 of 10 , Nov 26, 2001
            --- In albanach@y..., "Sharon L. Krossa" <krossa@a...> wrote:
            >
            > I think we have already privately corresponded on this, but I think
            > we should pool our efforts on this -- I'd be delighted to post what
            > you find in poetry in my Descriptions and Depictions of Historical
            > Scottish Clothing project:
            >
            > http://www.MedievalScotland.org/clothing/refs/
            >
            > so that others can benefit from what you find. Please email me if
            > you're interested (krossa@a...) -- or email anyway,
            > as I'd like to know more about the curator you spoke to and the
            > articles he told you about ;-).

            Sounds like a good idea - pooling resources and comparing theories can
            be very useful. :) I'd be pleased to have the quotations listed.

            One of the sources I've been working from is Thomas McLaughlin's
            "The Dean of Lismore's Book, from a Manuscript Collection Made by Sir
            James M'Gregor, Dean of Lismore, in the Beginning of the Sixteenth
            Century" - and *not* trusting the Victorian translations. William
            Watson's "Bardachd Ghaidhilig: Specimens of Gaelic Poetry, 1550-1900"
            has also been useful (although there are no translations at all there)
            plus his "Scottish Verse from the Book of the Dean of Lismore"
            (Scottish Gaelic Texts Society) & E.C. Quiggins comentary on the
            Lismore material. I've recently acquired Alexander Cameron's
            "Reliquiae Celticae" (which iirc also does not have any translations -
            sigh) - another set of early documents printed in the 19th century.

            (All right - I have a bit of a fixation on Lismore. <g> The McGregor
            brothers were a fascinating pair, and iirc probably uncles or great
            uncles to the Gregor McGregor of Glenstrae commemorated in "Gregor
            Cridhe" - which song may or may not be "period" - I haven't tracked it
            in printed form back before about 1812 so far, but I'm still looking.
            ;)

            Plus a selection more, currently mostly boxed up (including an
            assortment of articles) as I prepare to move...

            > But this is an interesting lead with regard to decoration (and
            > answers the question in my other post ;-).

            I'm looking into decorative motifs from jewelry as well. They would
            not *necessarily* have been used on clothing, but may have. I feel
            that other decorative motifs, such as those on painted ceilings, are
            a bit farther removed, and might not have made the leap from an
            architectural medium to a textile one. (However, it does show that
            "Motif X" was in use in the culture at the time - unless, of course,
            the painted ceiling was commissioned by a Scot, but executed by, say,
            an Italian artist... I digress. ;)

            Decorative patterns in existing 16th - e 17th c Scottish brooches
            which I have seen, or seen pictures of, include tree-of-life
            (reminiscent of those decorated ionar,) knotwork rondels, fanciful
            animals (which were *not* interlaced,) inscriptions and pseudo-
            inscriptions. (I'll be inserting some pictures.) I'm recalling a
            couple of examples of the large center crystal such as Martin Martin
            mentions.

            > There is also the question of which Scots and especially _when_ he
            is
            > describing yet to be sorted and dependant on that original Latin
            and,
            > more significantly, a fuller context from the text than is given in
            > the clothing books. McClintock's translation of the men's clothing
            > passage uses the past tense, not the present, and the book is about
            > the origin of the Scottish people. (In other words, Lesley may not
            be
            > the least bit reliable if he is writing about what was supposedly
            > worn long ago in the past.) This has been on my list of things to
            > check out for a long time now ;-)

            Very True, he may have been writing about "ancient times," which is
            *most* annoyin' of him. <g> I'd love to get my hands on the fuller
            context.

            There are currently no fewer than *three* copies of "De origine,
            moribus et rebus gestis Scotorum" for sale via bookfinder.com, but
            none of them are in a range I can afford. (There was also recently a
            first edition of Fynes Moryson's "Itenerary" for sale - a mere
            $3,950.00 - printed in 1617; serious book lust.)

            > >however, Bishop Lesley's commentary was written almost forty
            > > years after Henry's decree, so presumably the gowns of Scottish
            > > ladies were still decorated at the time.
            >
            > Except that we don't know whether Lesley is describing contemporary
            > dress or historical dress, etc.

            Also true. :( (Have to look farther into this.) Hmm... it was
            published in 1578...

            Sorry - get me started on this and I take a while to subside.

            Rowen
          • Matt Newsome
            ... This may or may not be within yoru capacity, but it would be wonderful if you could scan in some of these motifs and provide brief documentation of where
            Message 5 of 10 , Nov 27, 2001
              At Monday, 26 November 2001, you wrote:

              >Decorative patterns in existing 16th - e 17th c Scottish brooches
              >which I have seen, or seen pictures of, include tree-of-life
              >(reminiscent of those decorated ionar,) knotwork rondels, fanciful
              >animals (which were *not* interlaced,) inscriptions and pseudo-
              >inscriptions.  (I'll be inserting some pictures.)  I'm recalling a
              >couple of examples of the large center crystal such as Martin Martin
              >mentions.

              This may or may not be within yoru capacity, but it would be wonderful
              if you could scan in some of these motifs and provide brief documentation
              of where they are from, so thayt those of us who want to do any kind
              of decorative work with documentably period patterns coudl use them
              as a resource. Either put them in the groups file sectiopn at Yahoo,
              or I would be glad to host them off the Albanach.org web space.
              I think this would be a very useful thing for SCAdians and other
              reenactors.
              Aye,
              Eogan

              Albanach.org
              Scottish History -- Highland Dress
            • rowengr@hotmail.com
              ... ... wonderful ... documentation ... Yahoo, ... I ll see what I can do once the books and notes re-emerge (and get my pictures developed - the Museum
              Message 6 of 10 , Nov 28, 2001
                --- In albanach@y..., Matt Newsome <eogan@a...> wrote:
                > At Monday, 26 November 2001, you wrote:
                >
                > >Decorative patterns in existing 16th - e 17th c Scottish brooches
                <snip>

                > This may or may not be within yoru capacity, but it would be
                wonderful
                > if you could scan in some of these motifs and provide brief
                documentation
                > of where they are from, so thayt those of us who want to do any kind
                > of decorative work with documentably period patterns coudl use them
                > as a resource. Either put them in the groups file sectiopn at
                Yahoo,
                > or I would be glad to host them off the Albanach.org web space.
                > I think this would be a very useful thing for SCAdians and other
                > reenactors.
                > Aye,
                > Eogan

                I'll see what I can do once the books and notes re-emerge (and get my
                pictures developed - the Museum allows photography.) Unfortunately,
                once I finish moving I will no longer be living with a scanner, but I
                think I can access one at work or borrow a friend's.

                Rowen
              • kiarapanther1
                ... ... infamous for ... way ... the ... used a ... Oh so pretty!!! I m adding this to my links on my Irish Page
                Message 7 of 10 , Dec 29, 2001
                  --- In albanach@y..., Quadriga <trolhaus@v...> wrote:
                  <snip>
                  > The Irish and their cousins in the Scottish highlands were
                  infamous for
                  > their highly decorated costume, so recreating this costume is an
                  > embroiderers dream. Unfortunately, there is almost nothing in the
                  way
                  > of contemporary pictoral evidence of which shows any details as to
                  the
                  > types of stitch work done or much more specific than that they
                  used a
                  > lot of gold work and beads/jewels in the bodice/sleeves. In the
                  > versions of this dress that I've made, I've attempted to draw from
                  > embroidery and manuscript art from slightly earlier in the century.
                  >
                  > You can see some pictures of my work at:
                  >
                  > http://www.geocities.com/Jongloresse/SCA/costume.htm
                  >
                  > I hope that helps.
                  >
                  > -Rowan ni Ruari
                  > (mka. Brenda Colosa

                  Oh so pretty!!! I'm adding this to my links on my Irish Page
                  http://www.angelfire.com/zine/kiarapanther/garb/irish.html

                  I really like the second one.....I will get mine resewn eventually
                  so that I can embellish it with in an inch of its life.
                  http://www.angelfire.com/zine/kiarapanther/project/project.html
                  Once I get this one put back together I plan on running a vine motif
                  all around the neck and down the front of the bodice and putting
                  jewels on the half-sleeves. And eventually embroidering the inside
                  of the split skirt.

                  --Kiara/Ciar
                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.