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Re: [albanach] Nicknames

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  • Nancy Howell
    Dear just Margaret- Don t know about the historical validity of these, but perhaps Margie or Rettie might work? I never figured out how they got Peg from
    Message 1 of 5 , Jul 31, 2001
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      Dear "just" Margaret-
      Don't know about the historical validity of these, but perhaps Margie or
      Rettie might work? I never figured out how they got Peg from Margaret
      anyhow...does anyone know???
      Nan Turnbull


      ----Original Message Follows----
      From: "Julie Stackable, SCA Margaret Hepburn" <malvoisine@...>
      Reply-To: albanach@yahoogroups.com
      To: albanach@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [albanach] Nicknames
      Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 03:05:15 -0000

      Dear all -
      Any of you research/heraldry mavens know of any good 16th century
      (pref. Scottish) nicknames for Margaret besides Meg/Peggy/Maggie?
      I like Daisy, but I'm just not a "Daisy". Maggot was my personal
      fave, but it never stuck for some reason. I've seen Maisri listed,
      but am not sure if that's really a Margaret nickname or just one of
      the Celtic woowoo listings. I'm just one of those strange people who
      never seem to get nickname-ised.
      Puir, sad 'just' Margaret



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    • Sharon L. Krossa
      ... I don t know that Daisy was a period nickname for Margaret in Scotland. I don t recall seeing it, though I haven t done a specific search. ... Looks like
      Message 2 of 5 , Aug 6, 2001
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        At 3:05 AM +0000 7/31/2001, Julie Stackable, SCA Margaret Hepburn wrote:
        >Dear all -
        >Any of you research/heraldry mavens know of any good 16th century
        >(pref. Scottish) nicknames for Margaret besides Meg/Peggy/Maggie?
        >I like Daisy, but I'm just not a "Daisy".

        I don't know that Daisy was a period nickname for Margaret in
        Scotland. I don't recall seeing it, though I haven't done a specific
        search.

        >Maggot was my personal
        >fave, but it never stuck for some reason. I've seen Maisri listed,
        >but am not sure if that's really a Margaret nickname or just one of
        >the Celtic woowoo listings.

        Looks like some kind of woowoo to me. The true Gaelic forms get a
        little weird, it is true, (well, from an English perspective -- they
        make perfect sense in Gaelic ;-) but not that weird. But, of course,
        as a Scots speaking Lowlander you wouldn't be using Gaelic forms of
        the name, anyway, in the 16th century.

        >I'm just one of those strange people who
        >never seem to get nickname-ised.
        >Puir, sad 'just' Margaret

        I could have just sworn I posted a message with these, ah, yes, so I
        did (read on for more, though):

        These are ones I've found in the
        Aberdeen Council Register (asterisk (*) after a spelling indicates
        that it was expanded from a non-diplomatic transcription which may
        have contained errors; unless the same spelling is also listed
        without an asterisk, these spellings are suspect but still indicate
        that some (possibly different) form of the name was used in the
        year(s) indicated.)

        16th Century Spelling [Instances] Year(Instances)
        -----------------
        Mag [5] 1502(1), 1509(1), 1516(1), 1518(1), 1519(1)
        Mage [25] 1503(2), 1509(1), 1520(3), 1524(1), 1530(1), 1531(1),
        1532(2), 1533(2), 1540(2), 1543(1), 1548(6), 1549(3)
        Magis [3] 1503(3)
        Magy [1] 1509(1)
        Maigis* [1] 1521(1)
        Margaret [7] 1502(1), 1505(1), 1508(1), 1520(3), 1521(1)
        Margaret* [7] 1502(5), 1521(2)
        Margeret [1] 1503(1)
        Margeret* [5] 1502(5)
        Margrait [2] 1543(1), 1544(1)
        Margrayt [1] 1538(1)
        Margreit* [1] 1521(1)
        Margret [19] 1521(1), 1526(1), 1531(1), 1532(3), 1548(7), 1549(2), 1550(4)
        Margret* [1] 1521(1)
        Maugis [1] 1523(1)
        Meg [9] 1503(1), 1505(1), 1506(2), 1507(1), 1509(3), 1548(1)
        Meg* [3] 1520(1), 1521(2)
        Mege [14] 1505(1), 1520(7), 1524(1), 1533(1), 1548(3), 1549(1)
        Mege* [2] 1520(1), 1521(1)
        Megy [6] 1510(1), 1514(1), 1516(1), 1543(3)
        Megy* [1] 1521(1)


        Well, in addition to these, it seems that forms of <Maddy> were used
        as a nickname for Margaret -- though in some instances they may be a
        true <Maude> rather than a nickname for <Margaret>:

        16th Century Spelling [Instances] Year(Instances)
        -----------------
        Made [10] 1525(1), 1527(1), 1528(1), 1532(7)
        Madde [3] 1531(1), 1532(2)
        Mady [3] 1500(1), 1504(1), 1510(1)
        Mawde [3] 1528(1), 1531(2)
        Mavde [2] 1527(2)
        Medde [2] 1520(1), 1540(1)
        Medy [2] 1524(1), 1527(1)
        Maddy [1] 1513(1)
        Maude [1] 1527(1)
        Meddy [1] 1501(1)
        Mede [1] 1525(1)

        Also, although unlike with Maddy (where I have the same woman
        referred to as a form of <Maddy> and as <Margaret> in the same
        entry), I have no direct evidence that <Bege> and variants is a
        nickname for <Margaret>, but my suspicion is that they are, along the
        same lines as modern English <Peggy>:

        16th Century Spelling [Instances] Year (Instances)
        -----------------
        Bege [1] 1523 (1)
        Bege* [1] 1521 (1)
        Begy [1] 1503 (1)
        Beigis* [1] 1521 (1)

        Of course, I should point out that from what I have observed in the
        Aberdeen records, you don't necessarily get a choice about what
        diminutive forms of your name are used for you. I expect that there
        didn't exist a 16th century Margaret who was not called <Mage> on
        occasion ;-)

        Sharon, ska Effrick
        --
        Sharon L. Krossa, krossa@...
      • Sharon L. Krossa
        ... I haven t seen them used in period Scotland so far. (Just as what names are used is highly period, culture, and language specific, so too is what nicknames
        Message 3 of 5 , Aug 6, 2001
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          At 1:14 PM -0500 7/31/2001, Nancy Howell wrote:
          >Dear "just" Margaret-
          >Don't know about the historical validity of these, but perhaps Margie or
          >Rettie might work?

          I haven't seen them used in period Scotland so far. (Just as what
          names are used is highly period, culture, and language specific, so
          too is what nicknames were used.)

          >I never figured out how they got Peg from Margaret
          >anyhow...does anyone know???

          It's a typical English nickname process, replacing an \m\ sound with
          a \p\ sound -- e.g.

          Mary -> Molly -> Polly;
          Margaret -> Meg -> Peg;
          etc.

          Consider that how you make the \m\ and \p\ sounds is in some ways
          very similar (by pressing your lips together) -- it's not a
          surprising development.

          Though note from my other message that so far in the 16th century in
          Scotland I've not actually found it with a <P>, though I may (or may
          not) have found it with a <B>.

          Sharon, ska Effrick
          --
          Sharon L. Krossa, krossa@...
        • Nancy Howell
          Sharon-Just got back into town, so please pardon the delay. Thank you for the info on the Peg from Margaret issue!!! Nan Turnbull ... From: Sharon L. Krossa
          Message 4 of 5 , Aug 7, 2001
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            Sharon-Just got back into town, so please pardon the delay.
            Thank you for the info on the Peg from Margaret issue!!! Nan Turnbull


            ----Original Message Follows----
            From: "Sharon L. Krossa" <krossa@...>
            Reply-To: albanach@yahoogroups.com
            To: albanach@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [albanach] Nicknames
            Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 10:43:05 -0700

            At 1:14 PM -0500 7/31/2001, Nancy Howell wrote:
            >Dear "just" Margaret-
            >Don't know about the historical validity of these, but perhaps Margie or
            >Rettie might work?

            I haven't seen them used in period Scotland so far. (Just as what
            names are used is highly period, culture, and language specific, so
            too is what nicknames were used.)

            >I never figured out how they got Peg from Margaret
            >anyhow...does anyone know???

            It's a typical English nickname process, replacing an \m\ sound with
            a \p\ sound -- e.g.

            Mary -> Molly -> Polly;
            Margaret -> Meg -> Peg;
            etc.

            Consider that how you make the \m\ and \p\ sounds is in some ways
            very similar (by pressing your lips together) -- it's not a
            surprising development.

            Though note from my other message that so far in the 16th century in
            Scotland I've not actually found it with a <P>, though I may (or may
            not) have found it with a <B>.

            Sharon, ska Effrick
            --
            Sharon L. Krossa, krossa@...


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