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  • wyrdwitch@starpower.net
    Greetings. I finally have a name question--so this is probably directed most at Ms. Krossa. Below, I ve listed seven names taken from various parts of the list
    Message 1 of 4 , Jul 27, 2000
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      Greetings.

      I finally have a name question--so this is probably directed most
      at Ms. Krossa.

      Below, I've listed seven names taken from various parts of the list
      on 12th Century names appearing on the site, which appear in
      differing frequency in the Book of Deer. If it's not too much
      trouble, could I find 1) the pronunciation of these names (as can
      most closely be approximated), and 2) the Anglicized versions of them
      for the same time period (in other words--not today) if that's
      possible/they exist. If there were no Anglicized version (I suppose
      that may be the case for some of these) in the 12 C., then today's
      version, if appropriate, would be great as well. Many thanks for
      your time, expertise, and energy.

      Cathal

      Broccin

      Dauid (David?)

      Mael-Giric (I noticed that Mael- began several names, and that Giric
      appeared by itself too--could this be something similar to the modern
      French system of Jean-Pierre, Jean-Claude, Jean-Michel?)

      Ruadri

      Sitheach

      Tralin

      In your debt--

      joel
    • wyrdwitch@starpower.net
      Greetings. Below, I ve listed seven names taken from various parts of the list on 12th Century names appearing on Effric s site, which appear in differing
      Message 2 of 4 , Jul 31, 2000
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        Greetings.

        Below, I've listed seven names taken from various parts of the list
        on 12th Century names appearing on Effric's site, which appear in
        differing frequency in the Book of Deer. Is there anyone who would
        know:
        1) the pronunciation of these names (as can most closely be
        approximated), and
        2) the Anglicized versions of them as they would have been in
        that period if that's possible/they exist. If there were no
        Anglicized version (I suppose that may be the case for some
        of these) in the twelfth century, but there is one today,
        then that would be great as well.

        Any help with this would be greatly appreciated.

        Cathal (James Pratt goes by this, doesn't he?)

        Broccin

        Dauid (David?)

        Mael-Giric (I noticed that Mael- began several names, and that Giric
        appeared by itself too--could this be something similar to the modern
        French system of Jean-Pierre, Jean-Claude, Jean-Michel?)
        * Thanks for your response, Eogan. I hadn't considered that
        at all. What, then, would the answer for Giric be? Was it a name
        associated with the church, or with leadership?

        Ruadri

        Sitheach

        Tralin

        My thanks,
        joel
      • Sharon L. Krossa
        ... These pronunciations are all for the 12th century. Other periods ... Well, more or less as one would guess in English: KAHTH-ahl , with the TH unvoiced
        Message 3 of 4 , Aug 3, 2000
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          At 1:48 AM +0000 8/1/2000, wyrdwitch@... wrote:
          >Greetings.
          >
          >Below, I've listed seven names taken from various parts of the list
          >on 12th Century names appearing on Effric's site, which appear in
          >differing frequency in the Book of Deer. Is there anyone who would
          >know:
          > 1) the pronunciation of these names (as can most closely be
          > approximated), and
          > 2) the Anglicized versions of them as they would have been in
          > that period if that's possible/they exist. If there were no
          > Anglicized version (I suppose that may be the case for some
          > of these) in the twelfth century, but there is one today,
          > then that would be great as well.
          >
          >Any help with this would be greatly appreciated.

          These pronunciations are all for the 12th century. Other periods
          would have other pronunciations:

          >Cathal (James Pratt goes by this, doesn't he?)

          Well, more or less as one would guess in English: \KAHTH-ahl\, with
          the \TH\ unvoiced like the one in English "path" (but not like the
          one in "that")

          >Broccin

          This is probably roughly \BROAK-een\ (so the first syllable rhyming
          with English "broke") Note that there are accents over both vowels:
          "Br{o'}cc{i'}n"

          >Dauid (David?)

          Well, it isn't really clear that this name was used by Scottish Gaels
          in the 12th century. In the gaelic notes in the Book of Deer the name
          appears in reference to King David only. OCM do indicate the name was
          adopted by the Irish Gaels, and certainly modern Scottish Gaels have
          a form of the name, so it would be reasonable speculation that at
          some point in the later middle ages the name was adopted by Scottish
          Gaels, but it is speculation and the earlier you go the more
          speculative it is.

          All that being said, if it were used in the 12th century by Gaels, I
          would expect the pronunciation to be roughly \DAH-vit\

          >Mael-Giric

          >(I noticed that Mael- began several names, and that Giric
          >appeared by itself too--could this be something similar to the modern
          >French system of Jean-Pierre, Jean-Claude, Jean-Michel?)

          No, it is a form of devotional name. The second part is usually a
          Saint's name. "Mael" literally means "tonsured one", so gives the
          sense "devotee". Note that the names are not necessarily able to be
          used separately. For example, only in very late period Scotland do
          you find anyone in Gaelic named simply "Patraic", earlier you find
          only "Mael Patraic" or "Gille Patraic".

          > * Thanks for your response, Eogan. I hadn't considered that
          >at all. What, then, would the answer for Giric be? Was it a name
          >associated with the church, or with leadership?

          No, Mael Giric was just a name. You'll notice in my article a number
          of devotional names with "Mael" or "Gille" (a similar construction,
          "gille" having the sense of "servant").

          Like all names, although it did have a meaning known by the people
          using it, names primarily mean "that person over there" rather than
          the underlying original literal meaning. Parents naming a child "Mael
          Giric" may or may not have had S. Giric in mind when naming their
          child.

          >Ruadri

          Roughly \ROO-ahth-ree\, with the \th\ voiced like the one in English
          "that" and "bathe" (but not like the one in "bath")

          >Sitheach

          Roughly \SHEE-thekh\, with the \TH\ unvoiced like the one in English
          "path" (but not like the one in "that") and the \kh\ the rasping
          sound of the "ch" in Scottish "loch" or German "ach" or "Bach".

          Note that the name has accents "S{i'}theach"

          >Tralin

          Probably something like \TRAAH-leen\

          Again, with accents "Tr{a'}l{i'}n"

          As for Anglicized versions, 12th century ones don't really exist
          because English/Scots wasn't used much in documents in Scotland in
          the 12th century. Latin forms probably exist for some, but it would
          take a bit to find them so I'd rather wait until you narrow down the
          list.

          As for modern Anglicized versions, most of these names aren't used
          anymore. However, the modern form of "Ruadri" ("Ruaraidh" or
          "Ruairidh") is often Anglicized "Rory". But this wouldn't apply to
          this 12th century form because the pronunciation had not changed yet.

          Sharon
          ska Affrick
          Sharon Krossa, krossa@...
          Medieval Scotland (including resources for names, clothing & history):
          http://www.MedievalScotland.org/
          The most complete index of reliable web articles about pre-1600 names:
          The Medieval Names Archive - http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/
          Consultations about re-creating historically accurate pre-1600 names:
          Academy of Saint Gabriel - http://www.s-gabriel.org/
        • wyrdwitch@starpower.net
          Affrick, Many thanks for your response. I am working on narrowing the list, and will post any further questions. I had a feeling that there wouldn t be much
          Message 4 of 4 , Aug 3, 2000
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            Affrick,

            Many thanks for your response. I am working on narrowing the
            list, and will post any further questions. I had a feeling that
            there wouldn't be much in the way of Anglicized versions . . . I
            appreciate the offer for searching for Latin versions, but I probably
            won't need that.

            Thanks again,

            joel
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