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[alanmoore] The pirates comic in Watchmen

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  • Maurizio Villotta
    Maybe this topic s been already discussed here before, but a friend of mine has been wondering about the meaning of the pirates comic in Watchmen for a long
    Message 1 of 17 , Mar 1, 1999
      Maybe this topic's been already discussed here before, but a friend of mine
      has been wondering about the meaning of the pirates comic in Watchmen for a
      long time, and he's asked me to enquire about that on the list.
      Can anybody help him?

      Maurizio Villotta


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    • Patrick Brown
      ... mine ... for a ... It is, I believe, a comment on Veidt s final solution. The mariner, with all good intention, has attempted to achieve his aim on the
      Message 2 of 17 , Mar 2, 1999
        >From: Maurizio Villotta <villotta.maurizio@...>
        >
        >Maybe this topic's been already discussed here before, but a friend of
        mine
        >has been wondering about the meaning of the pirates comic in Watchmen
        for a
        >long time, and he's asked me to enquire about that on the list.
        >Can anybody help him?
        >
        >Maurizio Villotta

        It is, I believe, a comment on Veidt's final solution. The mariner, with
        all good intention, has attempted to achieve his aim "on the backs of
        murdered men", but in the end he is simply a murderer and has achieved
        nothing. Veidt looks to have succeeded at the end of Watchmen, but the
        pirate comic is an ominous hint that it'll all blow up in his face.

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      • David Skelton
        ... I ve noticed that EC is reprinting some of their classics ; does anyone know if they have or intend to reprint Tales of the Black Freighter? ... eGroup
        Message 3 of 17 , Mar 2, 1999
          >It is, I believe, a comment on Veidt's final solution. The mariner, with
          >all good intention, has attempted to achieve his aim "on the backs of
          >murdered men", but in the end he is simply a murderer and has achieved
          >nothing. Veidt looks to have succeeded at the end of Watchmen, but the
          >pirate comic is an ominous hint that it'll all blow up in his face.


          I've noticed that EC is reprinting some of their 'classics'; does anyone know if
          they have or intend to reprint 'Tales of the Black Freighter?'




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        • Rick Crain
          There was no original Tales of the Black Freighter - Moore made it up. Rick Crain ... From: David Skelton [SMTP:David_Skelton@tcsmgmt.com] Sent: Tuesday,
          Message 4 of 17 , Mar 2, 1999
            There was no original "Tales of the Black Freighter" - Moore made it up.

            Rick Crain

            -----Original Message-----
            From: David Skelton [SMTP:David_Skelton@...]
            Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 11:21 AM
            To: alanmoore@egroups.com
            Subject: [alanmoore] Re: The pirates comic in Watchmen





            >It is, I believe, a comment on Veidt's final solution. The mariner, with
            >all good intention, has attempted to achieve his aim "on the backs of
            >murdered men", but in the end he is simply a murderer and has achieved
            >nothing. Veidt looks to have succeeded at the end of Watchmen, but the
            >pirate comic is an ominous hint that it'll all blow up in his face.


            I've noticed that EC is reprinting some of their 'classics'; does anyone know if
            they have or intend to reprint 'Tales of the Black Freighter?'




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          • David Skelton
            There was no original Tales of the Black Freighter - Moore made it up. Rick Crain It would have been cool if did make it up, since he would have had to also
            Message 5 of 17 , Mar 2, 1999
              There was no original "Tales of the Black Freighter" - Moore made it up.

              Rick Crain


              It would have been cool if did make it up, since he would have had to also make
              up the "Treasure Island Treasury of Comics" chapter he reprints at the end of
              Watchmen #5. However, I'm fairly certain that this comic within the comic is a
              reprint. Perhaps it was published by DC and not EC. Anyone know the story on
              that?




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            • Garfarnuc2@aol.com
              In a message dated 3/2/99 8:21:59 AM Pacific Standard Time, David_Skelton@tcsmgmt.com writes:
              Message 6 of 17 , Mar 2, 1999
                In a message dated 3/2/99 8:21:59 AM Pacific Standard Time,
                David_Skelton@... writes:

                << I've noticed that EC is reprinting some of their 'classics'; does anyone
                know if
                they have or intend to reprint 'Tales of the Black Freighter?' >>

                I think "TOTBF" was a "made up" EC tittle. I have a boxed set of EC pirate
                comics. They all have intros, talking about other Pirate comics, and TOTBF is
                never mentioned.

                Chris Reilly

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              • GSSTRO@aol.com
                In a message dated 3/2/99 12:45:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, rcrain@hermes.gc.peachnet.edu writes:
                Message 7 of 17 , Mar 2, 1999
                  In a message dated 3/2/99 12:45:33 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                  rcrain@... writes:

                  << There was no original "Tales of the Black Freighter" - Moore made it up. >>

                  But there were pirate comics from EC. Moore got the original EC artist, Joe
                  Orlando, to draw one of the pages for Watchmen.

                  greg

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                • Garfarnuc2@aol.com
                  In a message dated 3/2/99 1:37:43 PM Pacific Standard Time, GSSTRO@aol.com writes:
                  Message 8 of 17 , Mar 2, 1999
                    In a message dated 3/2/99 1:37:43 PM Pacific Standard Time, GSSTRO@...
                    writes:

                    << But there were pirate comics from EC. Moore got the original EC artist, Joe
                    Orlando, to draw one of the pages for Watchmen. >>

                    EC is currently reprinting them, and as I said earlier, you can buy them as a
                    "slipcase" boxed set. The set goes for about $120.
                    Anybody want to trade anything for the set? I'll gladly part w/ it. It
                    contains one "Piracy" book. a "Romance" an "Aces High" and a "Psychology"

                    Chris Reilly

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                  • Patrick Brown
                    ... also make ... end of ... Why not? He made up the text supplements in all the other issues. The Treasure Island Treasury had drawings by Joe Orlando. The
                    Message 9 of 17 , Mar 3, 1999
                      >From: "David Skelton" <David_Skelton@...>
                      >It would have been cool if did make it up, since he would have had to
                      also make
                      >up the "Treasure Island Treasury of Comics" chapter he reprints at the
                      end of
                      >Watchmen #5.

                      Why not? He made up the text supplements in all the other issues. The
                      "Treasure Island Treasury" had drawings by Joe Orlando. The "Tales of
                      the Black Freighter" story is quite clearly drawn, and lettered, by Dave
                      Gibbons.

                      One of the results of having superheroes in the "real" world of Watchmen
                      is that superhero comics aren't popular. The Treasure Island Treasury is
                      a history of comics in the "Watchmen universe", not the real one, and in
                      that world pirate comics became popular after superheroes failed to
                      catch on. That's what it says in the text, if I remember rightly.


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                    • David Skelton
                      OK, the veil has been lifted from my eyes... there is no Max Shea author of Tales of the Black Freighter. What had me fooled was my dim memory of the Watchmen
                      Message 10 of 17 , Mar 3, 1999
                        OK, the veil has been lifted from my eyes... there is no Max Shea author of
                        Tales of the Black Freighter. What had me fooled was my dim memory of the
                        Watchmen - its been over 10 years since I've read it. Add to my confusion the
                        following web page:

                        http://www.drcasey.com/cabinet/maps/index.shtml

                        Purporting to be an atlas of horror fiction, one finds cross-indexed entries for
                        Max Shea (sample below):

                        +++++
                        The Black Freighter (fictional comic):
                        A ship that roams the world's oceans, taking aboard the most treacherous and
                        despairing of men

                        Tales of the Black Freighter, by Max Shea
                        ++++++

                        I am reminded of Jorge Borges' Tlon, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius. The Treasure Island
                        Treasury of Comics stands in my mind now as a brilliant piece of work - I'm only
                        sorry I can't read the rest of it and especially sorry that I can't read the
                        other Tales of the Black Freighter.

                        Dave



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                      • GSSTRO@aol.com
                        In a message dated 3/3/99 11:25:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, David_Skelton@tcsmgmt.com writes:
                        Message 11 of 17 , Mar 4, 1999
                          In a message dated 3/3/99 11:25:23 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                          David_Skelton@... writes:

                          << OK, the veil has been lifted from my eyes... there is no Max Shea author of
                          Tales of the Black Freighter. What had me fooled was my dim memory of the
                          Watchmen - its been over 10 years since I've read it. Add to my confusion
                          the
                          following web page: >>

                          I just got a copy of The comics Journal #116 (from someone on this list!) in
                          which Moore addresses this very question. During a panel at a
                          convention........

                          FROM THE AUDIENCE: Is the Black Freighter anything to do with Bertolt Brecht?
                          MOORE: It certainly is, you clever cultured boy. For those cultureless people
                          in the audience, Bertolt Brecht, Bert as I call him, wrote "The Threepenny
                          Opera" with Kurt Weill. Its a magnificent story set around the coronation of
                          King Edward in England. Its where the song "Mack the Knife" comes from, and it
                          was originally a very nasty bloody song, whatever Bobby Darin did with it. One
                          of the prostitiutes in the story, a girl called Jenny, sings a song called
                          "Pirate Jenny". She works in a hotel, scrubbing floors, and in her head she's
                          thinking about all these guys smoking cigars who're sneering at her, and
                          there's a black freighter waiting out at sea and one day it's going to come
                          into town with guns firing from its bow, and the pitates are going to teem off
                          the ship and run through the town, and they're going to be piling up the
                          bodies. It's this horrible black vision of this ship coming in with a skull on
                          its masthead. Everything's still in the town, with everyone wondering what's
                          going to happen, and then this prostitute says, " I step out, looking pretty
                          in the morning with a ribbon in my hair, and a cheer splits the air.

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                        • GSSTRO@aol.com
                          In a message dated 3/3/99 11:25:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, David_Skelton@tcsmgmt.com writes:
                          Message 12 of 17 , Mar 4, 1999
                            In a message dated 3/3/99 11:25:23 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                            David_Skelton@... writes:

                            << OK, the veil has been lifted from my eyes... there is no Max Shea author of
                            Tales of the Black Freighter. What had me fooled was my dim memory of the
                            Watchmen - its been over 10 years since I've read it. Add to my confusion
                            the
                            following web page: >>

                            I just got a copy of The comics Journal #116 (from someone on this list!) in
                            which Moore addresses this very question. During a panel at a
                            convention........

                            FROM THE AUDIENCE: Is the Black Freighter anything to do with Bertolt Brecht?
                            MOORE: It certainly is, you clever cultured boy. For those cultureless people
                            in the audience, Bertolt Brecht, Bert as I call him, wrote "The Threepenny
                            Opera" with Kurt Weill. Its a magnificent story set around the coronation of
                            King Edward in England. Its where the song "Mack the Knife" comes from, and it
                            was originally a very nasty bloody song, whatever Bobby Darin did with it. One
                            of the prostitiutes in the story, a girl called Jenny, sings a song called
                            "Pirate Jenny". She works in a hotel, scrubbing floors, and in her head she's
                            thinking about all these guys smoking cigars who're sneering at her, and
                            there's a black freighter waiting out at sea and one day it's going to come
                            into town with guns firing from its bow, and the pitates are going to teem off
                            the ship and run through the town, and they're going to be piling up the
                            bodies. It's this horrible black vision of this ship coming in with a skull on
                            its masthead. Everything's still in the town, with everyone wondering what's
                            going to happen, and then this prostitute says, " I step out, looking pretty
                            in the morning with a ribbon in my hair, and a cheer splits the air." In her
                            dream, she's the pirate queen, and they're going to kill all the rich people
                            and they're going to say to her, "Shall we kill them now or later?" and she'll
                            say, "Kill them now." At the end she goes out on the Black Freighter. Its such
                            a powerful image, this death ship coming in, and in the Watchmen another sort
                            of deathship is coming in -- the nuclear war thats looming. The idea of death
                            that you can do nothing about just coming in on the tide just seemed to tie in
                            so nicely that I thought, "I'll rip that off. I'll take 'The Black Freighter'
                            and bring it into the Watchmen as one of the pirate comics," using it as a
                            counterpoint."

                            Greg

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                          • JoseVillar@aol.com
                            In a message dated 3/4/99 12:49:15 PM, GSSTRO@aol.com writes:
                            Message 13 of 17 , Mar 6, 1999
                              In a message dated 3/4/99 12:49:15 PM, GSSTRO@... writes:

                              <<I'll take 'The Black Freighter'
                              and bring it into the Watchmen as one of the pirate comics," using it as a
                              counterpoint.">>

                              Nina Simone does an amazingly powerful version of this song, IMHO the ultimate
                              "Pirate Jenny". And Betty Buckley gives it an interesting twist in her
                              "Evening at Carnagie Hall" CD.

                              Jose

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                            • Octavio Aragão
                              Taken from Mania OnLine... More From Alan Moore by Matt Brady Plus, check out our other exciting Supreme products! Alan Moore fans will soon be feeling
                              Message 14 of 17 , Mar 7, 1999
                                Taken from Mania OnLine...


                                More From Alan Moore


                                by Matt Brady

                                Plus, check out our other exciting Supreme products!
                                Alan Moore fans will soon be feeling nostalgia for 1997 when Moore was
                                writing and re-crafting the Awesome Universe in his image, creating a
                                world of superheroes that gave many fans the impression that this was
                                the way DC and Marvel should've done it years before.

                                Awesome recently solicited more of Moore's Awesome work based on
                                unpublished scripts and outlines including the Rob Liefeld-penciled, The
                                Allies, a series that collects Awesome's heroes together in a team
                                reminiscent of the Silver Age JLA.

                                In an exclusive Mania/Newsarama interview, Moore revealed that The
                                Allies #1 that hits shelves will be different from the solicited The
                                Allies #1 in two ways. "Allies comes from a bunch of very, very short,
                                very brief synopses that I did for Awesome a couple of years ago," Moore
                                says. "The ad that ran in Previews is actually completely out of date
                                and has noting to do with the comic that is going to be coming out. As
                                Rob explained it to me that was the art they had, on hand. The team I
                                wrote was made up of completely different characters."

                                Also, the creator credit will be slightly different than originally
                                reported. "I've got no objection to Rob using any stuff of mine that he
                                paid for," Moore says. "However, I told him that I'd prefer if he
                                downplayed the "stories by Alan Moore" aspect because my input if
                                anything was very skeletal outlines. But Rob assures me that
                                nevertheless, they are bigger, stronger outlines than anyone else in the
                                business, but by my standards, these are three or four line, vague ideas
                                for possible stories. As far as I am concerned, The Allies is a Rob
                                Liefeld/Eric Stephenson production, and any resemblance to my stories
                                will probably be coincidental. There wasn't much there to begin with."

                                Rob Liefeld however, politely disagrees with Moore. "As you can imagine
                                with the stories that have circulated about how detailed Alan's scripts
                                are (We have his scripts for a four-issue Warchild miniseries that he
                                wrote for us, and literally, Alan wrote four pages describing the first
                                page of the issue. The first panel is an entire page!), his synopses and
                                outlines much more than the standard length and content."

                                "Alan wrote very thorough synopses for The Allies that have true
                                beginnings, middles and ends," Liefeld says. "What he calls 'synopses'
                                are more complete than what some creators call 'scripts.' But in
                                accordance with Alan's wishes, The Allies will now read, "from stories
                                by Alan Moore." But everything else that will be coming from Awesome is
                                fully written by him, and I think people are going to be very excited to
                                see it."

                                So how much Alan Moore material does Awesome have in its archives?
                                "There was about 400 pages of my work that Awesome had that hadn't been
                                published by the time when they ceased publishing the first time," Moore
                                says. "As I recall, I'd written up to issue #7 of Youngblood, and there
                                7 or 8 issues of Supreme, and there were some various issues of Glory,
                                Warchild and a few others." While 400 pages may seem like an incredible
                                amount of work for mere mortals, apparently it's nothing when you're
                                Alan Moore. "If you haven't worked with Alan, you have no understanding
                                of how fast he is," Liefeld says. "He essentially wrote a year's worth
                                of everything he was doing for us. By the time Youngblood #1 came out,
                                he had already written Youngblood #8. Before we ever solicited Glory #1,
                                he had written seven issues. By the time we put out the last issue of
                                Supreme, we had another year's worth of scripts ready for art. Alan can
                                basically write a script a week, and that's what he was basically doing
                                when he was working for us."

                                "When Awesome went on hiatus, I put all of Alan's work away, and figured
                                that we'd eventually work through all the financial issues, and develop
                                a timeline to release all his stuff. Originally, I was going to hold
                                onto Alan's material because I had been told that America's Best Comics
                                was going to launch in November of '98 through February of '99. Then,
                                they told me that they were going to postpone it indefinitely as the
                                deal with DC came to light."

                                "Through all of this I was talking with Alex Ross who is my conscience
                                of sorts on Supreme. He's been very helpful in guiding creative
                                decisions in marketing what we have, because he is really passionate
                                about the character and has been very generous about helping us garner
                                more attention for the series. Alex told me that we should get Alan's
                                material out before the ABC books hit. Originally, I wanted to wait
                                until after the ABC debut and follow his newer stuff, but with the
                                majority of these books done, it didn't make sense to sit on them any
                                longer."

                                "Now, as the solicitations come out, we're getting most of the Awesome
                                material started up before the bulk of the ABC line starts, but I don't
                                think they'll compete against each other at all. The Alan Moore fan
                                would love a new Alan Moore book every day of the week, so we're betting
                                they're going to drink all this stuff up."

                                Awesome's shipping schedule of Moore's work looks like this through
                                early May:

                                · Glory #0, written by Alan Moore and illustrated by Brandon Peterson,
                                ships on March 9.

                                · Alan Moore's Awesome Universe Handbook #1, written by Alan Moore and
                                illustrated by Alex Ross, Pat Lee, Liefeld, Ed McGuiness, ships on March
                                30.

                                · Alan Moore's Awesome Adventures #1, written by Moore and illustrated
                                by Steve Skroce, ships on April 20.

                                · Allies #1, written by Eric Stephenson inspired by stories from Moore,
                                illustrated by Liefeld, ships on April 27.

                                · Supreme: The Return #1, written by Moore, illustrated by Chris
                                Sprouse, ships on May 4.

                                An Alan Moore/Alex Ross Production?

                                It's been a pipe dream for many fans, and now it may become a reality.
                                Rob Liefeld gave Mania the exclusive buzz about a project that may join
                                two of today's comic book legends.

                                "Alan and I are talking about a project that would team him with Alex
                                Ross," Liefeld says. "It originally stemmed from me calling Alex and
                                Alan in October and telling them that if I only had a limited amount of
                                dollars left to publish comics in this business, I would give it to Alex
                                and Alan and ask them to do a book together. They both thought that was
                                funny, and said they'd think about it. It turns out that Alex really
                                took to it and has talked to Alan about it. Through their discussions,
                                Alan really got interested, so it's something that's in the development
                                stages at the moment. Can't say if it will happen for sure, but the
                                possibility of it coming together gets better with each day."

                                Liefeld says that the project, starring Supreme, one of Ross and Moore's
                                favorite characters, could be out as early as December of this year,
                                depending on the creator's schedules. The working title for the project
                                is Supreme: WW Infinity.




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                              • Michael Norwitz
                                ... Most of the Awesome material doesn t much interest me, though I suppose it will be a good thing to have it out there and Moore making some money rather
                                Message 15 of 17 , Mar 7, 1999
                                  On Sun, 7 Mar 1999, Octavio [iso-8859-1] Aragão wrote:

                                  > So how much Alan Moore material does Awesome have in its archives?
                                  > "There was about 400 pages of my work that Awesome had that hadn't been
                                  > published by the time when they ceased publishing the first time," Moore
                                  > says. "As I recall, I'd written up to issue #7 of Youngblood, and there
                                  > 7 or 8 issues of Supreme, and there were some various issues of Glory,
                                  > Warchild and a few others." While 400 pages may seem like an incredible
                                  > amount of work for mere mortals, apparently it's nothing when you're
                                  > Alan Moore. "If you haven't worked with Alan, you have no understanding
                                  > of how fast he is," Liefeld says. "He essentially wrote a year's worth
                                  > of everything he was doing for us. By the time Youngblood #1 came out,
                                  > he had already written Youngblood #8. Before we ever solicited Glory #1,
                                  > he had written seven issues. By the time we put out the last issue of
                                  > Supreme, we had another year's worth of scripts ready for art. Alan can
                                  > basically write a script a week, and that's what he was basically doing
                                  > when he was working for us."

                                  Most of the Awesome material doesn't much interest me, though I suppose it
                                  will be a good thing to have it out there and Moore making some money
                                  rather than stuck away in Liefield's attic (god knows there is enough
                                  unpublished Moore stuck away in people's attics). His prolificism amazes
                                  me, really. I remember when DC had asked him to write Omega Men ... he
                                  came back a week later saying he didn't have the time, but here's 100
                                  pages of notes he wrote on the subject.

                                  > "Alan and I are talking about a project that would team him with Alex
                                  > Ross," Liefeld says. "It originally stemmed from me calling Alex and
                                  > Alan in October and telling them that if I only had a limited amount of
                                  > dollars left to publish comics in this business, I would give it to Alex
                                  > and Alan and ask them to do a book together. They both thought that was
                                  > funny, and said they'd think about it. It turns out that Alex really
                                  > took to it and has talked to Alan about it. Through their discussions,
                                  > Alan really got interested, so it's something that's in the development
                                  > stages at the moment. Can't say if it will happen for sure, but the
                                  > possibility of it coming together gets better with each day."
                                  >
                                  > Liefeld says that the project, starring Supreme, one of Ross and Moore's
                                  > favorite characters, could be out as early as December of this year,
                                  > depending on the creator's schedules. The working title for the project
                                  > is Supreme: WW Infinity.

                                  That's sort of too bad ... Supreme is my absolute least favorite project
                                  by Moore. I would have loved to see the pair of them do a story based on
                                  the WW2 Allies, if it *had* to be in the Awesome line.


                                  _______________________________________________________________________________
                                  "She always had a terrific sense of humor" Mikel Midnight
                                  (Valerie Solonas, as described by her mother)
                                  blaklion@...
                                  __________________________________________________http://www.best.com/~blaklion




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                                • Bryan A. Hollerbach
                                  (snip) I remember when DC had asked him to write Omega Men ... he came back a week later saying he didn t have the time, but here s 100 pages of notes he wrote
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Mar 8, 1999
                                    (snip)

                                    I remember when DC had asked him to write Omega Men ... he came back a week later saying he didn't have the time, but here's 100 pages of notes he wrote on the subject.

                                    (snip)

                                    blaklion@...

                                    (snip)


                                    Huh! I don't think I've heard that anecdote. Details?

                                    Bry
                                    8 March 1999

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                                  • Garfarnuc2@aol.com
                                    In a message dated 3/8/99 8:13:42 AM Pacific Standard Time, Bryan.Hollerbach@ey.com writes:
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Mar 8, 1999
                                      In a message dated 3/8/99 8:13:42 AM Pacific Standard Time,
                                      Bryan.Hollerbach@... writes:

                                      << I remember when DC had asked him to write Omega Men ... he came back a week
                                      later saying he didn't have the time, but here's 100 pages of notes he wrote
                                      on the subject.

                                      (snip)

                                      blaklion@...

                                      (snip)


                                      Huh! I don't think I've heard that anecdote. Details? >>

                                      DC asked Moore to write Omega Men, but he did not have the time (or did not
                                      want the job. Can't remember) He wrote a bible for the Omega Men, and decided
                                      that it was in poor taste. He thought it would be real pompous to write a
                                      guide that the writer (who was there first) would have to abide by. Moore is
                                      quite the diplomat.
                                      Moore chose to not have that bible be applied to the Omega Men.
                                      This info is from a Moore interview in "Amazing Heroes" I think the one w/ the
                                      Swamp Thing, Mr. Monster cover.

                                      Chris Reilly

                                      Chris Reilly

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