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Re: [ai-philosophy] Leibniz's finalcausationastheSelf,theactiveagentof change

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  • Eray Ozkural
    They just are :) Kind of like your non existent god -- Eray Ozkural http://myspace.com/arizanesil
    Message 1 of 6 , Aug 30, 2013
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      They just are :)

      Kind of like your non existent god

      --
      Eray Ozkural
      http://myspace.com/arizanesil



      On Aug 30, 2013, at 5:24 PM, "Roger Clough"<rclough@...> wrote:

      > Hi Eray Ozkural
      >
      > What is the source of the physical laws ?
      >
      >
      > Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000]
      > See my Leibniz site at
      > http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough
      >
      >
      > ----- Receiving the following content -----
      > From: Eray Ozkural
      > Receiver: ai-philosophy@yahoogroups.com
      > Time: 2013-08-30, 09:51:15
      > Subject: Re: [ai-philosophy] Leibniz's finalcausationastheSelf,theactiveagentof change
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >> Sure. Physics & evolution
      >>
      >> --
      >> Eray Ozkural
      >> http://myspace.com/arizanesil
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> On Aug 30, 2013, at 1:51 PM, "Roger Clough" wrote:
      >>
      >>> Hi Eray Ozkural
      >>>
      >>> Sorry, I had to look it up. Creationism looks like the Biblical account,
      >>> which is moreorless theological. My view is more phlosophisal and I leave
      >>> it open as to whether you maintain that the creator is a personal being or
      >>> wheher yiou consider the creator to be Plato's One, which is impersonal.
      >>> Generally I consider it to be Cosmic Mind.
      >>>
      >>> No matter which view your choose, I don't see how the universe could
      >>> have been created without some huge intelligence behind it. If you
      >>> have better explanation, I'd be curious to hear it.
      >>>
      >>>
      >>> Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000]
      >>> See my Leibniz site at
      >>> http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough
      >>>
      >>>
      >>> ----- Receiving the following content -----
      >>> From: Eray Ozkural
      >>> Receiver: ai-philosophy@yahoogroups.com
      >>> Time: 2013-08-29, 11:37:16
      >>> Subject: Re: [ai-philosophy] Leibniz's final causationastheSelf,theactiveagentof change
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>> A god that has already decided everything?
      >>>>
      >>>> --
      >>>> Eray Ozkural
      >>>> http://myspace.com/arizanesil
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>> On Aug 29, 2013, at 6:10 PM, "Roger Clough" wrote:
      >>>>
      >>>>> Hi Eray Ozkural
      >>>>>
      >>>>> What's creationism ?
      >>>>>
      >>>>> Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000]
      >>>>> See my Leibniz site at
      >>>>> http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough
      >>>>>
      >>>>>
      >>>>> ----- Receiving the following content -----
      >>>>> From: Eray Ozkural
      >>>>> Receiver: ai-philosophy@yahoogroups.com
      >>>>> Time: 2013-08-29, 10:39:35
      >>>>> Subject: Re: [ai-philosophy] Leibniz's final causationastheSelf,theactive agentof change
      >>>>>
      >>>>>
      >>>>>
      >>>>>
      >>>>>> Do you seriously believe in creationism of this sort?
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>> Strange,
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>> --
      >>>>>> Eray Ozkural
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>> On Aug 29, 2013, at 5:11 PM, "Roger Clough" wrote:
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>>> Hi Justin William Zijlstra
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>> You might Consider it this way:
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>> On the seventh day of creation, God drew up a computer
      >>>>>>> program called the preestablished harmony which precalculated
      >>>>>>> all paths of all objects in the universe.
      >>>>>>> It is analogous to the score of a symphony for an orchestra, each
      >>>>>>> part played separately with none clashing (all are harmonic).
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>> Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000]
      >>>>>>> See my Leibniz site at
      >>>>>>> http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>> ----- Receiving the following content -----
      >>>>>>> From: Justin William Zijlstra
      >>>>>>> Receiver: ai-philosophy
      >>>>>>> Time: 2013-08-29, 09:42:03
      >>>>>>> Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: [ai-philosophy] Leibniz's final causationastheSelf,theactive agent of change
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>> Termodynamics? One needs to have technology to do something like
      >>>>>>>> orchestration.
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>> One can derive of people around you (instinct)
      >>>>>>>> But people fall off: (instinct)
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>> Both respectively: derive and integrate.
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>> 2013/8/29 Roger Clough
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>> **
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>> Hi Justin William Zijlstra
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>> There's no redundancy (randomness ?) in Leibniz as everything happens
      >>>>>>>>> according to a pre-established harmony. This foresees the contingency
      >>>>>>>>> (statistical scatter) of real world behavior and directs objects
      >>>>>>>>> accordingly. Kind iof like an orchestral score where all the instruments
      >>>>>>>>> play in harmony.
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>> Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000]
      >>>>>>>>> See my Leibniz site at
      >>>>>>>>> http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>> ----- Receiving the following content -----
      >>>>>>>>> From: Justin William Zijlstra
      >>>>>>>>> Receiver: ai-philosophy
      >>>>>>>>> Time: 2013-08-28, 04:03:43
      >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: [ai-philosophy] Leibniz's final causation
      >>>>>>>>> astheSelf,theactive agent of change
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>> A vector: having multiple means to get to an end, but the means being
      >>>>>>>>>> redundant. This is necessary for continuity of processes (more valence'),
      >>>>>>>>>> dimension: because of a dimension or more dimensions, you actually have a
      >>>>>>>>>> premyth (repeat all steps (dimensions)).
      >>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>> 2013/8/28 Justin William Zijlstra
      >>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>> I call it a vector.
      >>>>>>>>>>> Body and brain has a certain complex redundant element'?
      >>>>>>>>>>> If so: It must be especially empirical: pureness in multiple places:
      >>>>>>>>>>> redundance?
      >>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>> 2013/8/28 Justin William Zijlstra
      >>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>> The empirical is about pureness. IS the pureness twice(but related or
      >>>>>>>>>>>> taken to be a myth) the equivalent of a paradox?
      >>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>> 2013/8/28 Justin William Zijlstra
      >>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>> I note some things related to leibniz, but I find reminiscenses of it
      >>>>>>>>> in
      >>>>>>>>>>>>> kant; and arent others as well? (kant continues things by wolf for
      >>>>>>>>> example
      >>>>>>>>>>>>> which continue the honor of leibniz).
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>> perception, perception instead of empirical.
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>> 2013/8/28 Justin William Zijlstra
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>> What is your idea about the body instead or supported redundantly by
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the brain?
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2013/8/27 Roger Clough
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> **
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Justin William Zijlstra
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm no holding anything back. There are however a number of my
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> postings on
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my website, http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unfortuntely, as I said, Leibniz never wrote a magnum opus.
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So you have to start at the beginning with the Monadology,
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which is inappropriately present on a Marxist site,
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>> http://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/philosophy/works/ge/leibniz.htm
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and follow up via the internet (Google on Leibniz). For example
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.iep.utm.edu/leib-met/
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/leibniz/
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Russells' book. Search amazon for texts with reasonable prices.
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's the bad news. The good news is that Leibniz
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is like a leggo toy kit, you can use what he has given us to
      >>>>>>>>> construct
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> practically anything along his lines of thought. You LEARN
      >>>>>>>>> existence
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> through Leibniz. He turns you into an explorer.
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000]
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> See my Leibniz site at
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>> ------------------------------------
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      >>>>>>
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      >>>>
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