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Insect level intelligence

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  • Eray Ozkural
    Imagine a very low level of intelligence, for instance insect intelligence. Which typical problems would you think it should solve that are indicative of such
    Message 1 of 11 , Nov 22, 2010
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      Imagine a very low level of intelligence, for instance insect intelligence. Which typical problems would you think it should solve that are indicative of such a level of intelligence?

      Best,

      --
      Eray Ozkural, PhD candidate.  Comp. Sci. Dept., Bilkent University, Ankara
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ai-philosophy
      http://myspace.com/arizanesil http://myspace.com/malfunct

    • Sergio Navega
      That s a quite interesting question. I can try to elaborate on that, but just to start, there s a study that revealed that bees can induce the concept of
      Message 2 of 11 , Nov 23, 2010
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        That's a quite interesting question. I can try to
        elaborate on that, but just to start, there's a study
        that revealed that bees can "induce" the concept
        of equal/different. This is more than just mere
        conditioning, it is a demonstration that bees are
        capable of at least one level of abstraction. Even
        more impressive is the discovery that bees can
        recognize different human faces. All these are
        quite extraordinary, imho.
         
        Sergio Navega
         
         
         

        Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 12:58 AM
        Subject: [ai-philosophy] Insect level intelligence

         

        Imagine a very low level of intelligence, for instance insect intelligence. Which typical problems would you think it should solve that are indicative of such a level of intelligence?


        Best,

        --
        Eray Ozkural, PhD candidate.  Comp. Sci. Dept., Bilkent University, Ankara
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ai-philosophy
        http://myspace.com/arizanesil http://myspace.com/malfunct

      • Eray Ozkural
        Yes, they are, that s why I was curious what you people would say on the subject. So, what kind of induction problems would we expect a bee to solve based on
        Message 3 of 11 , Nov 23, 2010
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          Yes, they are, that's why I was curious what you people would say on the subject. So, what kind of induction problems would we expect a bee to solve based on these studies? Can we design a test for general insect-level intelligence?

          Best,

          On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 3:44 PM, Sergio Navega <snavega@...> wrote:


          That's a quite interesting question. I can try to
          elaborate on that, but just to start, there's a study
          that revealed that bees can "induce" the concept
          of equal/different. This is more than just mere
          conditioning, it is a demonstration that bees are
          capable of at least one level of abstraction. Even
          more impressive is the discovery that bees can
          recognize different human faces. All these are
          quite extraordinary, imho.
           
          Sergio Navega
           
           
           

          Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 12:58 AM
          Subject: [ai-philosophy] Insect level intelligence

           

          Imagine a very low level of intelligence, for instance insect intelligence. Which typical problems would you think it should solve that are indicative of such a level of intelligence?


          Best,

          --
          Eray Ozkural, PhD candidate.  Comp. Sci. Dept., Bilkent University, Ankara
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ai-philosophy
          http://myspace.com/arizanesil http://myspace.com/malfunct






          --
          Eray Ozkural, PhD candidate.  Comp. Sci. Dept., Bilkent University, Ankara
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ai-philosophy
          http://myspace.com/arizanesil http://myspace.com/malfunct

        • sadeghi.afshin
          This word level is the nasty word that challenges all the categories makings that just where talking about intelligent behavior or algorithms to believe that
          Message 4 of 11 , Nov 23, 2010
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            This word "level" is the nasty word that challenges all the categories makings that just where talking about intelligent behavior or algorithms to believe that "some thing" is intelligent by behavior or built-in intelligence. I am thinking that you are posing this question by accepting the fact that put a side past definitions of intelligence and lets define different level of intelligence.As in past that instead of looking for humanoid robots ,here we look for human level intelligence or insect level of intelligence.maybe we
            should consider "stone level" intelligent behavior.but that is not "alive",any how.
            Regards,
            Afshin the son


            --- In ai-philosophy@yahoogroups.com, Eray Ozkural <erayo@...> wrote:
            >
            > Imagine a very low level of intelligence, for instance insect intelligence.
            > Which typical problems would you think it should solve that are indicative
            > of such a level of intelligence?
            >
            > Best,
            >
            > --
            > Eray Ozkural, PhD candidate. Comp. Sci. Dept., Bilkent University, Ankara
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ai-philosophy
            > http://myspace.com/arizanesil http://myspace.com/malfunct
            >
          • Sergio Navega
            That s an interesting subject. But we have a problem. Most of the brain of insects is highly hardwired and have specific areas assigned to each sensory
            Message 5 of 11 , Nov 23, 2010
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              That's an interesting subject. But we have a problem.
              Most of the brain of insects is highly hardwired and
              have specific areas assigned to each sensory modality.
              There's not much left for the processing of abstract things.
              I would say an "insect specific" problem would be one
              of recognizing simple visual patterns. An array of
              16 by 16 positions, where each cell can be "on" or
              "off", can be used to assemble simple patterns that
              the processor (the program emulating the insect's brain)
              would have to notice and eventually associate with
              specific responses. This has the looks of a undergrad
              homework, because simple ANNs can be used for that.
              Perhaps the big question here is the "general insect
              intelligence" expression. In the way I see it there's
              little space for anything "general" in terms of insect
              behavior. Let me add that "general human intelligence"
              is also a bit of a misnomer. Our brain is riddled with
              specificities.
               
              Sergio Navega
               
               
               

              Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 2:31 PM
              Subject: Re: [ai-philosophy] Insect level intelligence

               

              Yes, they are, that's why I was curious what you people would say on the subject. So, what kind of induction problems would we expect a bee to solve based on these studies? Can we design a test for general insect-level intelligence?


              Best,

              On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 3:44 PM, Sergio Navega <snavega@...> wrote:


              That's a quite interesting question. I can try to
              elaborate on that, but just to start, there's a study
              that revealed that bees can "induce" the concept
              of equal/different. This is more than just mere
              conditioning, it is a demonstration that bees are
              capable of at least one level of abstraction. Even
              more impressive is the discovery that bees can
              recognize different human faces. All these are
              quite extraordinary, imho.
               
              Sergio Navega
               
               
               

              Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 12:58 AM
              Subject: [ai-philosophy] Insect level intelligence

               

              Imagine a very low level of intelligence, for instance insect intelligence. Which typical problems would you think it should solve that are indicative of such a level of intelligence?


              Best,

              --
              Eray Ozkural, PhD candidate.  Comp. Sci. Dept., Bilkent University, Ankara
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ai-philosophy
              http://myspace.com/arizanesil http://myspace.com/malfunct






              --
              Eray Ozkural, PhD candidate.  Comp. Sci. Dept., Bilkent University, Ankara
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ai-philosophy
              http://myspace.com/arizanesil http://myspace.com/malfunct

            • Sergio Navega
              ... I guess we can find plenty exemplars of this level at the republican party (sorry..) Sergio Navega From: sadeghi.afshin Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010
              Message 6 of 11 , Nov 23, 2010
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                > maybe we should consider "stone level" intelligent
                > behavior.
                 
                I guess we can find plenty exemplars of this level at the
                republican party (sorry..)
                 
                Sergio Navega
                 
                 

                Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 6:13 PM
                Subject: [ai-philosophy] Re: Insect level intelligence

                 

                This word "level" is the nasty word that challenges all the categories makings that just where talking about intelligent behavior or algorithms to believe that "some thing" is intelligent by behavior or built-in intelligence. I am thinking that you are posing this question by accepting the fact that put a side past definitions of intelligence and lets define different level of intelligence.As in past that instead of looking for humanoid robots ,here we look for human level intelligence or insect level of intelligence.maybe we
                should consider "stone level" intelligent behavior.but that is not "alive",any how.
                Regards,
                Afshin the son

                --- In ai-philosophy@yahoogroups.com, Eray Ozkural <erayo@...> wrote:

                >
                > Imagine a very low level
                of intelligence, for instance insect intelligence.
                > Which typical
                problems would you think it should solve that are indicative
                > of such a
                level of intelligence?
                >
                > Best,
                >
                > --
                > Eray
                Ozkural, PhD candidate. Comp. Sci. Dept., Bilkent University, Ankara
                >
                href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ai-philosophy">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ai-philosophy
                >
                http://myspace.com/arizanesil http://myspace.com/malfunct
                >

              • Eray Ozkural
                It s curious, I suppose you could start with the papers you mentioned and work backwards from the list, come up with a list of problems that insects can
                Message 7 of 11 , Nov 23, 2010
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                  It's curious, I suppose you could start with the papers you mentioned and work backwards from the list, come up with a list of problems that insects can actually *learn* to solve, and then you can test a general learner on those problems.

                  Best,

                  On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 11:12 PM, Sergio Navega <snavega@...> wrote:


                  That's an interesting subject. But we have a problem.
                  Most of the brain of insects is highly hardwired and
                  have specific areas assigned to each sensory modality.
                  There's not much left for the processing of abstract things.
                  I would say an "insect specific" problem would be one
                  of recognizing simple visual patterns. An array of
                  16 by 16 positions, where each cell can be "on" or
                  "off", can be used to assemble simple patterns that
                  the processor (the program emulating the insect's brain)
                  would have to notice and eventually associate with
                  specific responses. This has the looks of a undergrad
                  homework, because simple ANNs can be used for that.
                  Perhaps the big question here is the "general insect
                  intelligence" expression. In the way I see it there's
                  little space for anything "general" in terms of insect
                  behavior. Let me add that "general human intelligence"
                  is also a bit of a misnomer. Our brain is riddled with
                  specificities.
                   
                  Sergio Navega
                   
                   
                   

                  Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 2:31 PM
                  Subject: Re: [ai-philosophy] Insect level intelligence

                   

                  Yes, they are, that's why I was curious what you people would say on the subject. So, what kind of induction problems would we expect a bee to solve based on these studies? Can we design a test for general insect-level intelligence?


                  Best,

                  On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 3:44 PM, Sergio Navega <snavega@...> wrote:


                  That's a quite interesting question. I can try to
                  elaborate on that, but just to start, there's a study
                  that revealed that bees can "induce" the concept
                  of equal/different. This is more than just mere
                  conditioning, it is a demonstration that bees are
                  capable of at least one level of abstraction. Even
                  more impressive is the discovery that bees can
                  recognize different human faces. All these are
                  quite extraordinary, imho.
                   
                  Sergio Navega
                   
                   
                   

                  Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 12:58 AM
                  Subject: [ai-philosophy] Insect level intelligence

                   

                  Imagine a very low level of intelligence, for instance insect intelligence. Which typical problems would you think it should solve that are indicative of such a level of intelligence?


                  Best,

                  --
                  Eray Ozkural, PhD candidate.  Comp. Sci. Dept., Bilkent University, Ankara
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ai-philosophy
                  http://myspace.com/arizanesil http://myspace.com/malfunct






                  --
                  Eray Ozkural, PhD candidate.  Comp. Sci. Dept., Bilkent University, Ankara
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ai-philosophy
                  http://myspace.com/arizanesil http://myspace.com/malfunct






                  --
                  Eray Ozkural, PhD candidate.  Comp. Sci. Dept., Bilkent University, Ankara
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ai-philosophy
                  http://myspace.com/arizanesil http://myspace.com/malfunct

                • Eray Ozkural
                  Sorry I mean to say, backwards from the references, focusing on actual problems is good, it s a refreshment from toy problems which are less convincing! ... --
                  Message 8 of 11 , Nov 23, 2010
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                    Sorry I mean to say, backwards from the references, focusing on actual problems is good, it's a refreshment from toy problems which are less convincing!

                    On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 2:37 AM, Eray Ozkural <examachine@...> wrote:
                    It's curious, I suppose you could start with the papers you mentioned and work backwards from the list, come up with a list of problems that insects can actually *learn* to solve, and then you can test a general learner on those problems.

                    Best,

                    --
                    Eray Ozkural, PhD candidate.  Comp. Sci. Dept., Bilkent University, Ankara
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ai-philosophy
                    http://myspace.com/arizanesil http://myspace.com/malfunct

                  • Ray Gardener
                    As a slight tangeant to this subject, I find it interesting because if we identify organisms that are the most minimal in terms of dynamic vs. gene-directed
                    Message 9 of 11 , Nov 28, 2010
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                      As a slight tangeant to this subject, I find it interesting because if
                      we identify organisms that are the most minimal in terms of dynamic vs.
                      gene-directed intelligent, then it simplifies the problem of finding the
                      brain systems that utilize qualia. As a bonus, we could have an improved
                      definition for life: organisms that have only gene-directed intelligence
                      (i.e., operating solely on instinct) could be defined purely as machines
                      (albiet biological) and therefore not really living.

                      Ray
                    • Abram Demski
                      Here s a silly exercise: what s the analogous test to the Turing test for the insect domain? Does it have the same flaws? Worse flaws? Insects trying to judge
                      Message 10 of 11 , Nov 29, 2010
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                        Here's a silly exercise: what's the analogous test to the Turing test for the insect domain? Does it have the same flaws? Worse flaws?

                        Insects trying to judge between insects and robots sounds possible (ie, see if our fake bee can infiltrate the hive), but does not fit the spirit of the Turing test in that Turing wanted to rule out the need for robots; and furthermore, the insects don't know what's coming, so they aren't proper judges-- they will accept a bee-like thing merely by default.

                        Humans judging insects from robot insects fixes the 2nd problem, but not the 1st.

                        --Abram

                        On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 7:39 PM, Eray Ozkural <erayo@...> wrote:
                         

                        Sorry I mean to say, backwards from the references, focusing on actual problems is good, it's a refreshment from toy problems which are less convincing!



                        On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 2:37 AM, Eray Ozkural <examachine@...> wrote:
                        It's curious, I suppose you could start with the papers you mentioned and work backwards from the list, come up with a list of problems that insects can actually *learn* to solve, and then you can test a general learner on those problems.

                        Best,

                        --
                        Eray Ozkural, PhD candidate.  Comp. Sci. Dept., Bilkent University, Ankara
                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ai-philosophy
                        http://myspace.com/arizanesil http://myspace.com/malfunct




                        --
                        Abram Demski
                        http://lo-tho.blogspot.com/
                        http://groups.google.com/group/one-logic
                      • Eray Ozkural
                        ... Not a silly test at all I think, since insects display a good number of adaptive traits and problem solving abilities. It could be a full-body Turing test,
                        Message 11 of 11 , Dec 3, 2010
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                          On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 3:37 PM, Abram Demski <abramdemski@...> wrote:


                          Here's a silly exercise: what's the analogous test to the Turing test for the insect domain? Does it have the same flaws? Worse flaws? 

                          Not a silly test at all I think, since insects display a good number of adaptive traits and problem solving abilities. It could be a full-body Turing test, putting the virtual insect in certain environments and expect it to survive through challenges.
                           
                          Insects trying to judge between insects and robots sounds possible (ie, see if our fake bee can infiltrate the hive), but does not fit the spirit of the Turing test in that Turing wanted to rule out the need for robots; and furthermore, the insects don't know what's coming, so they aren't proper judges-- they will accept a bee-like thing merely by default.


                          Or humans distinguishing a virtual insect's behavior, from that of a real insect hooked up to the virtual environment through a cybernetic connection.

                          Humans judging insects from robot insects fixes the 2nd problem, but not the 1st.


                          Ok, so did I solve the first? :)

                          Perhaps though instead of the virtual environment, you could define more specialized problems. It seems that performing these tests in a rigorous way would be more difficult than making the sim-insect run though. I think to make my idea work in a cheap way, you have to abstract the problems that the insects can solve into abstract machine learning problems, and expect a single algorithm to solve them all. That's something I have been saying for ages, luckily I am now working on just such an algorithm!

                          Cheers, 
                           

                          --
                          Eray Ozkural, PhD candidate.  Comp. Sci. Dept., Bilkent University, Ankara
                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ai-philosophy
                          http://myspace.com/arizanesil http://myspace.com/malfunct

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