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18577Re: Re: [ai-philosophy] Leibniz'sfinalcausationastheSelf,theactive agentofchange

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  • Eray Ozkural
    Aug 31, 2013
    • 0 Attachment
      All life is nonphysical? Any evidence for that?

      On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 1:41 PM, Roger Clough <rclough@...> wrote:
      > Hi Eray Ozkural
      >
      > Creationist schmiationist.
      >
      > And life is nonphysical so it cannot be synthetic.
      >
      >
      > Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000]
      > See my Leibniz site at
      > http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough
      >
      >
      > ----- Receiving the following content -----
      > From: Eray Ozkural
      > Receiver: ai-philosophy@yahoogroups.com
      > Time: 2013-08-30, 16:36:06
      > Subject: Re: [ai-philosophy] Leibniz'sfinalcausationastheSelf,theactive agentofchange
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >>Creationist is oblivious to synthetic life :)
      >>
      >>--
      >>Eray Ozkural
      >>http://myspace.com/arizanesil
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>On Aug 30, 2013, at 5:26 PM, "Roger Clough" wrote:
      >>
      >>> Hi Eray Ozkural
      >>>
      >>> No it doesn't. If moledcular biology understood life,
      >>> it could create life. So far no sucess.
      >>>
      >>>
      >>> Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000]
      >>> See my Leibniz site at
      >>> http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough
      >>>
      >>>
      >>> ----- Receiving the following content -----
      >>> From: Eray Ozkural
      >>> Receiver: ai-philosophy@yahoogroups.com
      >>> Time: 2013-08-30, 09:52:29
      >>> Subject: Re: [ai-philosophy] Leibniz'sfinalcausationastheSelf,theactive agentof change
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>> Molecular biology proves what life is, etc. Its just science.
      >>>>
      >>>> --
      >>>> Eray Ozkural
      >>>> http://myspace.com/arizanesil
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>> On Aug 30, 2013, at 3:42 PM, "Roger Clough" wrote:
      >>>>
      >>>>> Hi Justin William Zijlstra
      >>>>>
      >>>>> Can you prove what life is ?
      >>>>> Or intelligence ?
      >>>>> Or consciousness ?
      >>>>> Or free will ?
      >>>>> Or subjectivity ?
      >>>>> Or Self ?
      >>>>>
      >>>>>
      >>>>>
      >>>>> Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000]
      >>>>> See my Leibniz site at
      >>>>> http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough
      >>>>>
      >>>>>
      >>>>> ----- Receiving the following content -----
      >>>>> From: Justin William Zijlstra
      >>>>> Receiver: ai-philosophy
      >>>>> Time: 2013-08-30, 07:52:16
      >>>>> Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: [ai-philosophy] Leibniz'sfinalcausationastheSelf,theactive agent of change
      >>>>>
      >>>>>
      >>>>>
      >>>>>
      >>>>>> No proof no story.
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>> 2013/8/30 Roger Clough
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>>> **
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>> Hi Justin William Zijlstra
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>> Thgere's no bridge, it's all the same stuff=Mind.
      >>>>>>> in which our own minds are included.
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>> The proof in essence is Leibniz's metaphysics.
      >>>>>>> You can't prove Plato either.
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>> Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000]
      >>>>>>> See my Leibniz site at
      >>>>>>> http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>> ----- Receiving the following content -----
      >>>>>>> From: Justin William Zijlstra
      >>>>>>> Receiver: ai-philosophy
      >>>>>>> Time: 2013-08-29, 10:15:45
      >>>>>>> Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: [ai-philosophy] Leibniz's
      >>>>>>> finalcausationastheSelf,theactive agent of change
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>> Would you reproduce a proof with a bridge
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>> 2013/8/29 Roger Clough
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>> **
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>> Hi Justin William Zijlstra
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>> OK, but both are material. Mind is not.
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>> Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000]
      >>>>>>>>> See my Leibniz site at
      >>>>>>>>> http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>> ----- Receiving the following content -----
      >>>>>>>>> From: Justin William Zijlstra
      >>>>>>>>> Receiver: ai-philosophy
      >>>>>>>>> Time: 2013-08-29, 09:35:40
      >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: [ai-philosophy] Leibniz's final
      >>>>>>>>> causationastheSelf,theactive agent of change
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>> Hi,
      >>>>>>>>>> additionally,
      >>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>> If the body AND the brain reproduce to a related phenomenon. I chose
      >>>>>>> the
      >>>>>>>>>> word redundant because there might be related contingencies.
      >>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>> 2013/8/28 Roger Clough
      >>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>> **
      >>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>> Hi Justin William Zijlstra
      >>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>> If that's what you mean by redundancy, Leibniz
      >>>>>>>>>>> came up with his principle that identical articles cannot exist
      >>>>>>>>>>> except they may be identical but be elsewhere in time or
      >>>>>>>>>>> space.
      >>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>> Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000]
      >>>>>>>>>>> See my Leibniz site at
      >>>>>>>>>>> http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough
      >>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>> ----- Receiving the following content -----
      >>>>>>>>>>> From: Justin William Zijlstra
      >>>>>>>>>>> Receiver: ai-philosophy
      >>>>>>>>>>> Time: 2013-08-28, 04:19:05
      >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: [ai-philosophy] Leibniz's final causation
      >>>>>>>>>>> astheSelf,theactive agent of change
      >>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>> Note at paradox.
      >>>>>>>>>>>> If things are pure but paradoxical.
      >>>>>>>>>>>> Can't we say that we talk about time? All elements spatially
      >>>>>>> redundant
      >>>>>>>>>>> seem
      >>>>>>>>>>>> to be a paradox. But with time it is not a question.
      >>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>> 2013/8/28 Justin William Zijlstra
      >>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>> A vector: having multiple means to get to an end, but the means
      >>>>>>>>> being
      >>>>>>>>>>>>> redundant. This is necessary for continuity of processes (more
      >>>>>>>>>>> valence'),
      >>>>>>>>>>>>> dimension: because of a dimension or more dimensions, you
      >>>>>>> actually
      >>>>>>>>> have
      >>>>>>>>>>> a
      >>>>>>>>>>>>> premyth (repeat all steps (dimensions)).
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>> 2013/8/28 Justin William Zijlstra
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I call it a vector.
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Body and brain has a certain complex redundant element'?
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>> If so: It must be especially empirical: pureness in multiple
      >>>>>>>>> places:
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>> redundance?
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2013/8/28 Justin William Zijlstra
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The empirical is about pureness. IS the pureness twice(but
      >>>>>>> related
      >>>>>>>>> or
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> taken to be a myth) the equivalent of a paradox?
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2013/8/28 Justin William Zijlstra
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I note some things related to leibniz, but I find
      >>>>>>> reminiscenses
      >>>>>>>>> of
      >>>>>>>>>>> it
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in kant; and arent others as well? (kant continues things by
      >>>>>>> wolf
      >>>>>>>>>>> for
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> example which continue the honor of leibniz).
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> perception, perception instead of empirical.
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2013/8/28 Justin William Zijlstra
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What is your idea about the body instead or supported
      >>>>>>>>> redundantly
      >>>>>>>>>>> by
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the brain?
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2013/8/27 Roger Clough
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> **
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Justin William Zijlstra
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm no holding anything back. There are however a number of
      >>>>>>> my
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> postings on
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my website, http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unfortuntely, as I said, Leibniz never wrote a magnum opus.
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So you have to start at the beginning with the Monadology,
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which is inappropriately present on a Marxist site,
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>> http://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/philosophy/works/ge/leibniz.htm
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and follow up via the internet (Google on Leibniz). For
      >>>>>>> example
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.iep.utm.edu/leib-met/
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/leibniz/
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Russells' book. Search amazon for texts with reasonable
      >>>>>>>>>>> prices.
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's the bad news. The good news is that Leibniz
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is like a leggo toy kit, you can use what he has given us to
      >>>>>>>>>>> construct
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> practically anything along his lines of thought. You LEARN
      >>>>>>>>>>> existence
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> through Leibniz. He turns you into an explorer.
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000]
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> See my Leibniz site at
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>
      >>>>>
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      >>
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      --
      Eray Ozkural, PhD candidate. Comp. Sci. Dept., Bilkent University, Ankara
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ai-philosophy
      http://myspace.com/arizanesil http://myspace.com/malfunct
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