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RE: [agileindia] Re: Agile Estimation: 9 Reasons Why You Should Use Story Points

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  • jerry.rajamoney@emc.com
    I feel everyone is right in their perspective. In my experience, story point estimation understating varies widely across teams and organizations. As long as
    Message 1 of 17 , Jul 1, 2012
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      I feel everyone is right in their perspective.

       

      In my experience, story point estimation understating varies widely across teams and organizations. As long as the team has an agreement with their management that “estimations are different from commitment” everything works well. But it is not easy to get this agreement L

       

      May be it is also good to read this Mike Cohn article http://www.mountaingoatsoftware.com/blog/its-effort-not-complexity/

       

      Regards,

      Jerry

       

      From: agileindia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:agileindia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ShriKant Vashishtha
      Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2012 3:59 PM
      To: agileindia@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [agileindia] Re: Agile Estimation: 9 Reasons Why You Should Use Story Points

       

       

      Estimation done as part of the planning is not the commitment necessarily. 

       

      However it provides some sense to PO on what all stories can be taken as part of the sprint.

       

      PO doesn't have to be part of the tasking. However I completely agree that subtasking is an important part after planning meeting anyway. Even in case of story points estimation, if team realizes that they overcommitted while doing subtasking they can go back to PO and change the sprint backlog.

       

      Kind regards,

      -ShriKant

       


      http://sampreshan.svashishtha.com

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      From: Siddharta Govindaraj <siddharta@...>
      To: agileindia@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2012 6:01 PM
      Subject: Re: [agileindia] Re: Agile Estimation: 9 Reasons Why You Should Use Story Points

       

       

      On Sat, Jun 30, 2012 at 3:06 PM, ShriKant Vashishtha <vashishtha_sk@...> wrote:

       

      Having said that, I still fail to understand on how to define the team-capacity to take the stories in the coming iteration with T-shirt sizing?

       


      Well, there are two ways to do it.

      One way is the Scrum way: Break the story into tasks, estimate tasks in hours and use that to do a sprint plan. Mike Cohn has a blog post on why you should not use story points/velocity for iteration planning here - http://www.mountaingoatsoftware.com/blog/why-i-dont-use-story-points-for-sprint-planning

      The other way is the Kanban way: Dont create a sprint plan. Just work on the most important story. When that is done, pick up the 2nd most important, then the next one etc. Whatever is complete at the end of the iteration is released. This is what ScrumBan teams do.

      --
      Siddharta Govindaraj
      siddharta@...
      +91 99400 36487

      Tools for Agile
      http://toolsforagile.com

       

    • sanjeev mishra
      Hi Naresh, Can we also arrange one towards here in NCR sometimes? ... -- Regards, Sanjeev Kumar Mishra (Blog ), Certified
      Message 2 of 17 , Jul 2, 2012
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        Hi Naresh,

        Can we also arrange one towards here in NCR sometimes?

        On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 10:51 AM, Naresh Jain <nashjain@...> wrote:
         

        I acknowledge that different people on this group are at different level of expertise/experience. Are at different stages in their process evolution. Everyone comes from a different background and experience. And all of us are giving our 2 cents with the best of our intensions.

        However I'm concerned that we might be really confusing the rest with contradictory suggestions.

        Wondering if there is a better, more constructive way to share our experience....

        (Also I would love to invite you all to the agile coach camp in Bangalore where we can take an actual real world example and see how various people's advice pans out.)
         

        From: sanjeev mishra <sanjusoftware@...>
        To: agileindia@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sunday, July 1, 2012 11:08 PM

        Subject: Re: [agileindia] Re: Agile Estimation: 9 Reasons Why You Should Use Story Points

         
        May be I am little too late to dive in this discussion, but I would definitely like to give my 2 cents, about why Story points and what it is nearly impossible to estimate in terms of time/hrs/days!!!

        OK.. stop before you stat thinking of a reply to me already, if you are already after reading sentence above. Let me explain briefly by an example:

        Lets say, I have 2 people team (just for the heck of this example, not that a scrum team is like that obviously). One is a normal person and another one is a P. T. Usha (the famous athlete from south, for people who don't know her). Now this team doesn't develop software, but they race.

        Now I have a racing assignment, in which I need the team to cover a track of 200 KMs. The normal person like me can run say @20KMPH and P T Usha can run actually at say @50KMPH. Now, if I ask the team in how much time can you complete the total distance of 200KMs? I think mathematically, here's how my team will respond:

        1. Normal person would say : 200 / 20 = 10Hrs
        2. P T Usha will say : 200 / 50 = 4 hrs.

        Now, unless I keep asking in terms of time / days / hrs, this team can never converge on a common answer and can never be able to give me a commitment. The reason is that when it comes to time / and hrs, it all depends on the individual who is doing the job. 

        Now if I ask another question to the team instead. Team, how much distance is it to cover.... both the normal person and P T Usha are going to say 200 KM :) which is correct.

        So, if this 200 KM was the smallest racing track (of simplest user story) that I had, and if we understand it well, then we can keep it as a reference and call it a 1 pointer. And as soon as I do that, I can then compare it to other racing tracks (user stories), say a 400 KM, and then give it a 2 points and like wise. 

        I am trying to explain this very simple yet not so simple to understand concept of what a Story point is, because unless we do understand this very basics, we can undertand what a story point really is and why its better to use it for estimations.... not that it increases or decreases anything in terms of the ability of the team to perform. SCRUM does not improve the teams velocity, it only helps surface its problem so that they can be solved. Once we are able to identify that, we can always look at the solutions and then the velocity amy increase. And I guess this is only reason why I personally want to always have some metric for the team see how we as a team have been doing!!

        Regards,
        Sanjeev Mishra  


        On Sat, Jun 30, 2012 at 3:59 PM, ShriKant Vashishtha <vashishtha_sk@...> wrote:
         
        Estimation done as part of the planning is not the commitment necessarily. 

        However it provides some sense to PO on what all stories can be taken as part of the sprint.

        PO doesn't have to be part of the tasking. However I completely agree that subtasking is an important part after planning meeting anyway. Even in case of story points estimation, if team realizes that they overcommitted while doing subtasking they can go back to PO and change the sprint backlog.

        Kind regards,
        -ShriKant

        WordPressMy latest post:xml-utilities Library Available on Maven Central Repository xml-utilities (High level XML Java Utilities APIs) library is now available at Maven Central repo...Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
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        From: Siddharta Govindaraj <siddharta@...>
        To: agileindia@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2012 6:01 PM

        Subject: Re: [agileindia] Re: Agile Estimation: 9 Reasons Why You Should Use Story Points

         
        On Sat, Jun 30, 2012 at 3:06 PM, ShriKant Vashishtha <vashishtha_sk@...> wrote:

        Having said that, I still fail to understand on how to define the team-capacity to take the stories in the coming iteration with T-shirt sizing?


        Well, there are two ways to do it.

        One way is the Scrum way: Break the story into tasks, estimate tasks in hours and use that to do a sprint plan. Mike Cohn has a blog post on why you should not use story points/velocity for iteration planning here - http://www.mountaingoatsoftware.com/blog/why-i-dont-use-story-points-for-sprint-planning

        The other way is the Kanban way: Dont create a sprint plan. Just work on the most important story. When that is done, pick up the 2nd most important, then the next one etc. Whatever is complete at the end of the iteration is released. This is what ScrumBan teams do.

        --
        Siddharta Govindaraj
        siddharta@...
        +91 99400 36487

        Tools for Agile
        http://toolsforagile.com






        --
        Regards,
        Sanjeev Kumar Mishra (Blog),
        Certified SCRUM Master, Agile Coach
        Ph: 9591379609






        --
        Regards,
        Sanjeev Kumar Mishra (Blog),
        Certified SCRUM Master, Agile Coach
        Ph: 9591379609

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