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Re: [agile-usability] Origins of user stories

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  • Adrian Howard
    I m moderately the certain that the term user story came out of the XP crowd (possibly via being called customer stories first - my memory is poor). The
    Message 1 of 23 , Mar 26, 2013
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      I'm moderately the certain that the term "user story" came out of the
      XP crowd (possibly via being called "customer stories" first - my
      memory is poor). The Scrum world talked about Product Backlog Items
      and Sprint Backlog Items.

      The things on the cards may well be similar though. You'd need to ask
      early Scrum team folk to be sure.

      So you may be looking for the same practice with a different name.

      The focus on the card being the token for the conversations that
      define the spec - rather than being the spec artefact in toto was
      something that came from the XP folk more. At least that was the
      impression I had in the late 90's.

      Adrian

      On 26 March 2013 11:48, William Hudson <william.hudson@...> wrote:
      > Hi, Larry. Nice to hear from you.
      >
      >
      >
      > I have since come across a document entitled “User Stories Done Right:
      > Requirements” by Jeff Sutherland. However, it has a copyright footer that
      > reads ‘1993 – 2007’ so I’m trying to get in touch with Jeff to find the real
      > date. Since the term is in the article title I’m supposing that it might be
      > the earlier date.
      >
      >
      >
      > Regards,
      >
      >
      >
      > William
      >
      >
      >
      > From: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
      > [mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry Constantine
      > Sent: 26 March 2013 11:15
      > To: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: RE: [agile-usability] Origins of user stories
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > AFAIK, Kent Beck first introduced the term with its contemporary usage. Of
      > course, meanings evolve, and the user stories of the new century, especially
      > when written by the IxD team, are quite different from those from the early
      > days, which were far less focused and informed by IxD concerns.
      >
      >
      >
      > ~~Prof. Larry Constantine, IDSA, ACM Fellow
      >
      > Universidade da Madeira | Madeira Interactive Technologies Institute
      >
      >
      >
      > [snipped]



      --
      http://quietstars.com adrianh@... twitter.com/adrianh
      t. +44 (0)7752 419080 skype adrianjohnhoward pinboard.in/u:adrianh
    • spbyh
      I may have some of the original WIKI postings and emails from the CCC project back in the 90s where the term was used by Beck, Jeffries, Astels, Cunningham, et
      Message 2 of 23 , Mar 26, 2013
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        I may have some of the original WIKI postings and emails from the CCC project back in the 90s where the term was used by Beck, Jeffries, Astels, Cunningham, et al. I do have some original Ron Jeffries user stories on cards and they are not in the Rachel Davis format which apparently started around 2005.  Ron put the estimate on the front of the card and the acceptance test on the back of the card, something that we didn't do.  I don't know who actually came up with the idea of using cards.
        If it can be traced back before CCC, you might have to go to the Smalltalk world, but I have the distinct impression the concept evolved out of the work done on CCC.
        =steve



        -----Original Message-----
        From: Adrian Howard <adrianh@...>
        To: agile-usability <agile-usability@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tue, Mar 26, 2013 9:09 am
        Subject: Re: [agile-usability] Origins of user stories

        I'm moderately the certain that the term "user story" came out of the
        XP crowd (possibly via being called "customer stories" first - my
        memory is poor). The Scrum world talked about Product Backlog Items
        and Sprint Backlog Items.
        
        The things on the cards may well be similar though. You'd need to ask
        early Scrum team folk to be sure.
        
        So you may be looking for the same practice with a different name.
        
        The focus on the card being the token for the conversations that
        define the spec - rather than being the spec artefact in toto was
        something that came from the XP folk more. At least that was the
        impression I had in the late 90's.
        
        Adrian
        
        
        On 26 March 2013 11:48, William Hudson <william.hudson@...> wrote: > Hi, Larry. Nice to hear from you. > > > > I have since come across a document entitled “User Stories Done Right: > Requirements” by Jeff Sutherland. However, it has a copyright footer that > reads ‘1993 – 2007’ so I’m trying to get in touch with Jeff to find the real > date. Since the term is in the article title I’m supposing that it might be > the earlier date. > > > > Regards, > > > > William > > > > From: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry Constantine > Sent: 26 March 2013 11:15 > To: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [agile-usability] Origins of user stories > > > > > > > AFAIK, Kent Beck first introduced the term with its contemporary usage. Of > course, meanings evolve, and the user stories of the new century, especially > when written by the IxD team, are quite different from those from the early > days, which were far less focused and informed by IxD concerns. > > > > ~~Prof. Larry Constantine, IDSA, ACM Fellow > > Universidade da Madeira | Madeira Interactive Technologies Institute > > > > [snipped] -- http://quietstars.com adrianh@... twitter.com/adrianh t. +44 (0)7752 419080 skype adrianjohnhoward pinboard.in/u:adrianh ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/agile-usability/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/agile-usability/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: agile-usability-digest@yahoogroups.com agile-usability-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: agile-usability-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      • spbyh
        Just a bit more. In 1989 Ward Cunningham and Kent Beck (then at Apple) gave a paper at OOPSLA89 which included the concept of the CRC card. I suspect that the
        Message 3 of 23 , Mar 26, 2013
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          Just a bit more.  In 1989 Ward Cunningham and Kent Beck (then at Apple) gave a paper at OOPSLA89 which included the concept of the CRC card. I suspect that the CRC card evolved into the user story at CCC as a way to make it more 'user-friendly'. The concepts are similar.
          =steve



          -----Original Message-----
          From: Adrian Howard <adrianh@...>
          To: agile-usability <agile-usability@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Tue, Mar 26, 2013 9:09 am
          Subject: Re: [agile-usability] Origins of user stories

          I'm moderately the certain that the term "user story" came out of the
          XP crowd (possibly via being called "customer stories" first - my
          memory is poor). The Scrum world talked about Product Backlog Items
          and Sprint Backlog Items.
          
          The things on the cards may well be similar though. You'd need to ask
          early Scrum team folk to be sure.
          
          So you may be looking for the same practice with a different name.
          
          The focus on the card being the token for the conversations that
          define the spec - rather than being the spec artefact in toto was
          something that came from the XP folk more. At least that was the
          impression I had in the late 90's.
          
          Adrian
          
          
          On 26 March 2013 11:48, William Hudson <william.hudson@...> wrote: > Hi, Larry. Nice to hear from you. > > > > I have since come across a document entitled “User Stories Done Right: > Requirements” by Jeff Sutherland. However, it has a copyright footer that > reads ‘1993 – 2007’ so I’m trying to get in touch with Jeff to find the real > date. Since the term is in the article title I’m supposing that it might be > the earlier date. > > > > Regards, > > > > William > > > > From: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry Constantine > Sent: 26 March 2013 11:15 > To: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [agile-usability] Origins of user stories > > > > > > > AFAIK, Kent Beck first introduced the term with its contemporary usage. Of > course, meanings evolve, and the user stories of the new century, especially > when written by the IxD team, are quite different from those from the early > days, which were far less focused and informed by IxD concerns. > > > > ~~Prof. Larry Constantine, IDSA, ACM Fellow > > Universidade da Madeira | Madeira Interactive Technologies Institute > > > > [snipped] -- http://quietstars.com adrianh@... twitter.com/adrianh t. +44 (0)7752 419080 skype adrianjohnhoward pinboard.in/u:adrianh ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/agile-usability/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/agile-usability/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: agile-usability-digest@yahoogroups.com agile-usability-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: agile-usability-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        • Gerard Meszaros
          I was a member of the Hillside Group along with Kent Beck and Ward Cunningham in 1995/1996 and was present at the first 4 PLOP conferences. The following is my
          Message 4 of 23 , Mar 26, 2013
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            I was a member of the Hillside Group along with Kent Beck and Ward Cunningham in
            1995/1996 and was present at the first 4 PLOP conferences. The following is my
            understanding of the origins of XP and User Stories based on my direct contacts
            with them in that time frame.

            CRC cards (co-invented by Ward and were used in domain modeling and represent a
            single domain object class and its responsibilities and collaborators. (See
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class-responsibility-collaboration_card) The user
            story card represents something the Customer wanted the Dev Team to build for
            them. Other than both being written on cards, there is really no similarity. So
            the 1989 OOPSLA paper is a red herring.

            You might take a look at the PLOP 1995 paper called Episodes which is the first
            writing I'm aware of that describes the process that came to be called eXtreme
            Programming. (see http://c2.com/ppr/episodes.html) It doesn't mention User
            Stories by name but refer to "Implied Requirement" and "Work Split" for the
            seeds of the user story concept.

            Best wishes,

            Gerard


            On 3/26/2013 8:09 PM, spbroi@... wrote:
            > Just a bit more. In 1989 Ward Cunningham and Kent Beck (then at Apple) gave a
            > paper at OOPSLA89which included the concept of the CRC card. I suspect that the
            > CRC card evolved into the user story at CCC as a way to make it more
            > 'user-friendly'. The concepts are similar.
            > =steve
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Adrian Howard <adrianh@...>
            > To: agile-usability <agile-usability@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Tue, Mar 26, 2013 9:09 am
            > Subject: Re: [agile-usability] Origins of user stories
            >
            > I'm moderately the certain that the term "user story" came out of the
            > XP crowd (possibly via being called "customer stories" first - my
            > memory is poor). The Scrum world talked about Product Backlog Items
            > and Sprint Backlog Items.
            >
            > The things on the cards may well be similar though. You'd need to ask
            > early Scrum team folk to be sure.
            >
            > So you may be looking for the same practice with a different name.
            >
            > The focus on the card being the token for the conversations that
            > define the spec - rather than being the spec artefact in toto was
            > something that came from the XP folk more. At least that was the
            > impression I had in the late 90's.
            >
            > Adrian
            >
            > On 26 March 2013 11:48, William Hudson <william.hudson@... <mailto:william.hudson@...>> wrote:
            >> Hi, Larry. Nice to hear from you.
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> I have since come across a document entitled “User Stories Done Right:
            >> Requirements” by Jeff Sutherland. However, it has a copyright footer that
            >> reads ‘1993 – 2007’ so I’m trying to get in touch with Jeff to find the real
            >> date. Since the term is in the article title I’m supposing that it might be
            >> the earlier date.
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> Regards,
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> William
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> From:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com <mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com>
            >> [mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com <mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com?>] On Behalf Of Larry Constantine
            >> Sent: 26 March 2013 11:15
            >> To:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com <mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com>
            >> Subject: RE: [agile-usability] Origins of user stories
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> AFAIK, Kent Beck first introduced the term with its contemporary usage. Of
            >> course, meanings evolve, and the user stories of the new century, especially
            >> when written by the IxD team, are quite different from those from the early
            >> days, which were far less focused and informed by IxD concerns.
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> ~~Prof. Larry Constantine, IDSA, ACM Fellow
            >>
            >> Universidade da Madeira | Madeira Interactive Technologies Institute
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> [snipped]
            >
            >
            >
            > --
            > http://quietstars.com adrianh@... <mailto:adrianh@...> twitter.com/adrianh
            > t. +44 (0)7752 419080 skype adrianjohnhoward pinboard.in/u:adrianh
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >

            --
            Gerard Meszaros
            Lean/Agile Coach/Mentor/Trainer
            http://www.gerardmeszaros.com
            1-403-827-2967

            Author of the Jolt Productivity Award winning book "xUnit Test Patterns -
            Refactoring Test Code" and winner of the "Programming with the Stars"
            competition at Agile 2009. Learn more at http://xunitpatterns.com/index.html
          • Adam Sroka
            I can t remember who said it or the exact context, but I remember hearing that Ward and Kent really liked using cards for a variety of different things and
            Message 5 of 23 , Mar 26, 2013
            • 0 Attachment
              I can't remember who said it or the exact context, but I remember hearing that Ward and Kent really liked using cards for a variety of different things and that when stories came along it was just a natural fit. 

              The CRC paper is no smoking gun, but it is evidence that using cards to think about the software they were creating was something they were already doing at least that early. 


              On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 8:35 PM, Gerard Meszaros <yahoo@...> wrote:
               

              I was a member of the Hillside Group along with Kent Beck and Ward Cunningham in
              1995/1996 and was present at the first 4 PLOP conferences. The following is my
              understanding of the origins of XP and User Stories based on my direct contacts
              with them in that time frame.

              CRC cards (co-invented by Ward and were used in domain modeling and represent a
              single domain object class and its responsibilities and collaborators. (See
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class-responsibility-collaboration_card) The user
              story card represents something the Customer wanted the Dev Team to build for
              them. Other than both being written on cards, there is really no similarity. So
              the 1989 OOPSLA paper is a red herring.

              You might take a look at the PLOP 1995 paper called Episodes which is the first
              writing I'm aware of that describes the process that came to be called eXtreme
              Programming. (see http://c2.com/ppr/episodes.html) It doesn't mention User
              Stories by name but refer to "Implied Requirement" and "Work Split" for the
              seeds of the user story concept.

              Best wishes,

              Gerard



              On 3/26/2013 8:09 PM, spbroi@... wrote:
              > Just a bit more. In 1989 Ward Cunningham and Kent Beck (then at Apple) gave a
              > paper at OOPSLA89which included the concept of the CRC card. I suspect that the

              > CRC card evolved into the user story at CCC as a way to make it more
              > 'user-friendly'. The concepts are similar.
              > =steve
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Adrian Howard <adrianh@...>
              > To: agile-usability <agile-usability@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Tue, Mar 26, 2013 9:09 am
              > Subject: Re: [agile-usability] Origins of user stories
              >
              > I'm moderately the certain that the term "user story" came out of the
              > XP crowd (possibly via being called "customer stories" first - my
              > memory is poor). The Scrum world talked about Product Backlog Items
              > and Sprint Backlog Items.
              >
              > The things on the cards may well be similar though. You'd need to ask
              > early Scrum team folk to be sure.
              >
              > So you may be looking for the same practice with a different name.
              >
              > The focus on the card being the token for the conversations that
              > define the spec - rather than being the spec artefact in toto was
              > something that came from the XP folk more. At least that was the
              > impression I had in the late 90's.
              >
              > Adrian
              >
              > On 26 March 2013 11:48, William Hudson <william.hudson@... <mailto:william.hudson@...>> wrote:
              >> Hi, Larry. Nice to hear from you.
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> I have since come across a document entitled “User Stories Done Right:
              >> Requirements” by Jeff Sutherland. However, it has a copyright footer that
              >> reads ‘1993 – 2007’ so I’m trying to get in touch with Jeff to find the real
              >> date. Since the term is in the article title I’m supposing that it might be
              >> the earlier date.
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> Regards,
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> William
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> From:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com <mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com>
              >> [mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com <mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com?>] On Behalf Of Larry Constantine

              >> Sent: 26 March 2013 11:15
              >> To:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com <mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com>

              >> Subject: RE: [agile-usability] Origins of user stories
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> AFAIK, Kent Beck first introduced the term with its contemporary usage. Of
              >> course, meanings evolve, and the user stories of the new century, especially
              >> when written by the IxD team, are quite different from those from the early
              >> days, which were far less focused and informed by IxD concerns.
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> ~~Prof. Larry Constantine, IDSA, ACM Fellow
              >>
              >> Universidade da Madeira | Madeira Interactive Technologies Institute
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> [snipped]
              >
              >
              >
              > --
              > http://quietstars.com adrianh@... <mailto:adrianh@...> twitter.com/adrianh

              > t. +44 (0)7752 419080 skype adrianjohnhoward pinboard.in/u:adrianh
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >

              --
              Gerard Meszaros
              Lean/Agile Coach/Mentor/Trainer
              http://www.gerardmeszaros.com
              1-403-827-2967

              Author of the Jolt Productivity Award winning book "xUnit Test Patterns -
              Refactoring Test Code" and winner of the "Programming with the Stars"
              competition at Agile 2009. Learn more at http://xunitpatterns.com/index.html


            • William Hudson
              Many thanks to Steve, Gerard and Adam for their helpful additions. As an OO developer in the 1990 s I have heard of CRC cards, but it seems something of a jump
              Message 6 of 23 , Mar 27, 2013
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                Many thanks to Steve, Gerard and Adam for their helpful additions.

                 

                As an OO developer in the 1990’s I have heard of CRC cards, but it seems something of a jump (conceptually) to user stories. However, I have come across a 1994 paper at Interact that uses the term ‘user stories’ in the correct sense. The authors of that paper have adapted the term ‘war stories’ used in a 1986 paper from Xerox Parc called ‘Narratives at Work’ (does *everything* we do today come from Xerox Parc<g>?)

                 

                I’d be really interested to see some of the original user stories if possible. From a UCD perspective the shift to roles is not really a benefit to users so it would be good to plot that development. Email me at whudson@... (if you’d prefer not to post them to the list).

                 

                Regards,

                 

                William

                 

                From: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com [mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Adam Sroka
                Sent: 27 March 2013 04:04
                To: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
                Cc: spbroi@...
                Subject: Re: [agile-usability] Origins of user stories

                 




                I can't remember who said it or the exact context, but I remember hearing that Ward and Kent really liked using cards for a variety of different things and that when stories came along it was just a natural fit. 

                 

                The CRC paper is no smoking gun, but it is evidence that using cards to think about the software they were creating was something they were already doing at least that early. 

                 

                On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 8:35 PM, Gerard Meszaros <yahoo@...> wrote:

                 

                I was a member of the Hillside Group along with Kent Beck and Ward Cunningham in
                1995/1996 and was present at the first 4 PLOP conferences. The following is my
                understanding of the origins of XP and User Stories based on my direct contacts
                with them in that time frame.

                CRC cards (co-invented by Ward and were used in domain modeling and represent a
                single domain object class and its responsibilities and collaborators. (See
                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class-responsibility-collaboration_card) The user
                story card represents something the Customer wanted the Dev Team to build for
                them. Other than both being written on cards, there is really no similarity. So
                the 1989 OOPSLA paper is a red herring.

                You might take a look at the PLOP 1995 paper called Episodes which is the first
                writing I'm aware of that describes the process that came to be called eXtreme
                Programming. (see http://c2.com/ppr/episodes.html) It doesn't mention User
                Stories by name but refer to "Implied Requirement" and "Work Split" for the
                seeds of the user story concept.

                Best wishes,

                Gerard



                On 3/26/2013 8:09 PM, spbroi@... wrote:
                > Just a bit more. In 1989 Ward Cunningham and Kent Beck (then at Apple) gave a

                > paper at OOPSLA89which included the concept of the CRC card. I suspect that the


                > CRC card evolved into the user story at CCC as a way to make it more
                > 'user-friendly'. The concepts are similar.
                > =steve
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Adrian Howard <adrianh@...>
                > To: agile-usability <agile-usability@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Tue, Mar 26, 2013 9:09 am
                > Subject: Re: [agile-usability] Origins of user stories
                >
                > I'm moderately the certain that the term "user story" came out of the
                > XP crowd (possibly via being called "customer stories" first - my
                > memory is poor). The Scrum world talked about Product Backlog Items
                > and Sprint Backlog Items.
                >
                > The things on the cards may well be similar though. You'd need to ask
                > early Scrum team folk to be sure.
                >
                > So you may be looking for the same practice with a different name.
                >
                > The focus on the card being the token for the conversations that
                > define the spec - rather than being the spec artefact in toto was
                > something that came from the XP folk more. At least that was the
                > impression I had in the late 90's.
                >
                > Adrian
                >

                > On 26 March 2013 11:48, William Hudson <william.hudson@... <mailto:william.hudson@...>> wrote:
                >> Hi, Larry. Nice to hear from you.
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> I have since come across a document entitled “User Stories Done Right:
                >> Requirements” by Jeff Sutherland. However, it has a copyright footer that
                >> reads ‘1993 – 2007’ so I’m trying to get in touch with Jeff to find the real
                >> date. Since the term is in the article title I’m supposing that it might be
                >> the earlier date.
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> Regards,
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> William
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> From:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com <mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com>

                >> [mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com <mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com?>] On Behalf Of Larry Constantine


                >> Sent: 26 March 2013 11:15

                >> To:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com <mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com>


                >> Subject: RE: [agile-usability] Origins of user stories
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> AFAIK, Kent Beck first introduced the term with its contemporary usage. Of
                >> course, meanings evolve, and the user stories of the new century, especially
                >> when written by the IxD team, are quite different from those from the early
                >> days, which were far less focused and informed by IxD concerns.
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> ~~Prof. Larry Constantine, IDSA, ACM Fellow
                >>
                >> Universidade da Madeira | Madeira Interactive Technologies Institute
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> [snipped]
                >
                >
                >
                > --

                > http://quietstars.com adrianh@... <mailto:adrianh@...> twitter.com/adrianh


                > t. +44 (0)7752 419080 skype adrianjohnhoward pinboard.in/u:adrianh
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >

                --
                Gerard Meszaros
                Lean/Agile Coach/Mentor/Trainer
                http://www.gerardmeszaros.com
                1-403-827-2967

                Author of the Jolt Productivity Award winning book "xUnit Test Patterns -
                Refactoring Test Code" and winner of the "Programming with the Stars"
                competition at Agile 2009. Learn more at http://xunitpatterns.com/index.html

                 




              • Adrian Howard
                Hey William, ... That s an interesting statement to me. Could you expand upon it? Adrian -- http://quietstars.com adrianh@quietstars.com
                Message 7 of 23 , Mar 27, 2013
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hey William,

                  On 27 March 2013 11:34, William Hudson <william.hudson@...> wrote:
                  > I’d be really interested to see some of the original user stories if
                  > possible. From a UCD perspective the shift to roles is not really a benefit
                  > to users so it would be good to plot that development.

                  That's an interesting statement to me. Could you expand upon it?

                  Adrian
                  --
                  http://quietstars.com adrianh@... twitter.com/adrianh
                  t. +44 (0)7752 419080 skype adrianjohnhoward pinboard.in/u:adrianh
                • William Hudson
                  A role is a systemizing concept so really makes no allowance for needs of the individual. Using it to represent users glosses over many of the inter-role
                  Message 8 of 23 , Mar 27, 2013
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                    A role is a systemizing concept so really makes no allowance for needs of
                    the individual. Using it to represent users glosses over many of the
                    inter-role issues like role ambiguity, role incompatibility, role conflict
                    and so on. Of course, we have Ivar Jacobson and use cases to thank for
                    roles, and they're not entirely without merit, but someone filling role A in
                    one context of use may have quite different needs to someone filling the
                    same role in a different context.

                    Regards,

                    William


                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
                    [mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Adrian Howard
                    Sent: 27 March 2013 11:39
                    To: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [agile-usability] Origins of user stories

                    Hey William,

                    On 27 March 2013 11:34, William Hudson <william.hudson@...> wrote:
                    > I'd be really interested to see some of the original user stories if
                    > possible. From a UCD perspective the shift to roles is not really a
                    > benefit to users so it would be good to plot that development.

                    That's an interesting statement to me. Could you expand upon it?

                    Adrian
                    --
                    http://quietstars.com adrianh@... twitter.com/adrianh
                    t. +44 (0)7752 419080 skype adrianjohnhoward pinboard.in/u:adrianh


                    ------------------------------------

                    Yahoo! Groups Links
                  • Adrian Howard
                    I d question whether the role slot in user stories often gets used in that way. The use-case role and the user story role tend to be used fairly
                    Message 9 of 23 , Mar 27, 2013
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                      I'd question whether the role slot in user stories often gets used in
                      that way. The use-case "role" and the user story "role" tend to be
                      used fairly differently in my experience.

                      We hit the same name - different usage problem again.

                      They're normally much closer to customer archetypes / persona in my
                      experience (indeed most agile ux folk I know who adopt the story
                      format slot persona into the role hole).

                      Cheers,

                      Adrian

                      On 27 March 2013 12:03, William Hudson <william.hudson@...> wrote:
                      > A role is a systemizing concept so really makes no allowance for needs of
                      > the individual. Using it to represent users glosses over many of the
                      > inter-role issues like role ambiguity, role incompatibility, role conflict
                      > and so on. Of course, we have Ivar Jacobson and use cases to thank for
                      > roles, and they're not entirely without merit, but someone filling role A in
                      > one context of use may have quite different needs to someone filling the
                      > same role in a different context.
                      >
                      > Regards,
                      >
                      > William
                      >
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
                      > [mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Adrian Howard
                      > Sent: 27 March 2013 11:39
                      > To: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: Re: [agile-usability] Origins of user stories
                      >
                      > Hey William,
                      >
                      > On 27 March 2013 11:34, William Hudson <william.hudson@...> wrote:
                      >> I'd be really interested to see some of the original user stories if
                      >> possible. From a UCD perspective the shift to roles is not really a
                      >> benefit to users so it would be good to plot that development.
                      >
                      > That's an interesting statement to me. Could you expand upon it?
                      >
                      > Adrian
                      > --
                      > http://quietstars.com adrianh@... twitter.com/adrianh
                      > t. +44 (0)7752 419080 skype adrianjohnhoward pinboard.in/u:adrianh
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >



                      --
                      http://quietstars.com adrianh@... twitter.com/adrianh
                      t. +44 (0)7752 419080 skype adrianjohnhoward pinboard.in/u:adrianh
                    • William Hudson
                      Agilists who know little or nothing about usability/UCD do try to take roles literally. I was talking with a client just a couple of weeks ago who pointed this
                      Message 10 of 23 , Mar 27, 2013
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                        Agilists who know little or nothing about usability/UCD do try to take roles
                        literally. I was talking with a client just a couple of weeks ago who
                        pointed this out as a problem with their introduction of UX design.

                        Regards,

                        William


                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
                        [mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Adrian Howard
                        Sent: 27 March 2013 12:11
                        To: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [agile-usability] Origins of user stories

                        I'd question whether the role slot in user stories often gets used in that
                        way. The use-case "role" and the user story "role" tend to be used fairly
                        differently in my experience.

                        We hit the same name - different usage problem again.

                        They're normally much closer to customer archetypes / persona in my
                        experience (indeed most agile ux folk I know who adopt the story format slot
                        persona into the role hole).

                        Cheers,

                        Adrian

                        [snipped]
                      • Adrian Howard
                        ... My experiences differ. It does happen - of course - but my experiences of teams, even those without UX input, is that the roles are more often treated as
                        Message 11 of 23 , Mar 27, 2013
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                          On 27 March 2013 12:22, William Hudson <william.hudson@...> wrote:
                          > Agilists who know little or nothing about usability/UCD do try to take roles
                          > literally. I was talking with a client just a couple of weeks ago who
                          > pointed this out as a problem with their introduction of UX design.

                          My experiences differ.

                          It does happen - of course - but my experiences of teams, even those
                          without UX input, is that the roles are more often treated as market
                          segments / archetypes / etc.

                          They're certainly seem to treated much more generally than use-case type roles.

                          Possibly you're seeing teams who are primarily transferring from
                          use-cases to stories? In those situations it's certainly a common
                          problem.

                          Cheers,

                          Adrian
                          --
                          http://quietstars.com adrianh@... twitter.com/adrianh
                          t. +44 (0)7752 419080 skype adrianjohnhoward pinboard.in/u:adrianh
                        • Larry Constantine
                          ... the individual. Using it to represent users glosses over many of the inter-role issues like role ambiguity, role incompatibility, role conflict and so on.
                          Message 12 of 23 , Mar 27, 2013
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                            William said:

                            > A role is a systemizing concept so really makes no allowance for needs of
                            the individual. Using it to represent users glosses over many of the
                            inter-role issues like role ambiguity, role incompatibility, role conflict
                            and so on. Of course, we have Ivar Jacobson and use cases to thank for
                            roles, and they're not entirely without merit, but someone filling role A in
                            one context of use may have quite different needs to someone filling the
                            same role in a different context. <

                            The user role concept traces back to contributions from Rebecca Wirfs-Brock
                            and was developed and elaborated in usage-centered design and later
                            model-driven activity-centered design (Constantine and Lockwood). A role is
                            a relationship between users and a system or service and is defined (ala
                            Wirfs-Brock) by a characteristic set of needs, expectations, interests, and
                            responsibilities in relation to the system/service and in the context of the
                            activity in which the user is participating. As such, a user role focuses
                            precisely on those issues most salient to effective interaction design (see
                            my chapter in The Persona Lifecycle for persuasive support). That it blurs
                            or compresses "individual differences" is precisely why it is a more compact
                            and efficient model, particularly for agile design and development.
                            Individual incumbents in a role vary immensely; the role itself is are far
                            less variable. Individuals are extremely complicated; roles are far simpler.
                            A well-formulated role absolutely does make allowance for the needs of the
                            individual, but not as an individual, not as a person, but rather as an
                            individual in a particular activity and in a particular relationship to a
                            designed artifact.

                            The critical issue in modeling for agile IxD/UxD is to model only what is
                            most important to model, compactly and concisely, to focus on what is likely
                            to yield the biggest payoff in guidance toward an effective design in the
                            least amount of time. The templated user role profiles employed in
                            usage-centered design and human activity modeling do just that,
                            concentrating the modeler/designer's attention on those things that are most
                            likely to directly impact and shape the design.

                            The issues you mention-role ambiguity, role incompatibility, role
                            conflict-are interesting from an intellectual standpoint and often play some
                            part in a complete analysis of human activity (we incorporate them in our
                            application of activity-theory to educational research, for instance), but
                            the relationship of the actor in role to the designed artifact is far more
                            relevant to designing that system or service. Inter-role issues that may be
                            important in organizational dynamics or social psychology are typically far
                            less central to getting the design right.

                            In the most recent incarnation of the user role profile that we use in
                            model-driven agile design (not yet written up), we have reduced the template
                            further to include just 3 categories (ORB): Orientation, Responsibilities,
                            and Background. Orientation and attitude of the actor in role to focal
                            activities and to the designed artifact; Responsibilities of the actor in
                            role within focal activities and with the designed artifact; Background
                            characteristics expected in relation to use of the designed artifact within
                            focal activities. This is a vast simplification from the concept of role in
                            activity theory and role theory, but it zeroes in on the stuff that is most
                            likely to make a difference, covering the bases on a single index card.

                            Modeling efficiency and design leverage are behind most of my work and the
                            usage/activity-centered design community. It is why we favor concise role
                            profiles over the decorative embellishments of personas, why essential use
                            cases win out over traditional concrete use cases and scenarios.

                            Psychologists and humanists can plead for attention to the individual, but,
                            as Don Norman and I pointed out some years ago, that is precisely the
                            problem. It is the focus on humans, on individuals, that diverts our
                            attention from the more important focus on what people are doing and trying
                            to do, that is, on activity as mediated by designed artifacts. This badly
                            needed shift in focus was behind my development of human activity modeling
                            (with Don's encouragement and contributions) and then its adaptation to
                            agile design and development. We drive AD&D by activity models not to
                            capture a complete analysis embodied in those models but to move as quickly
                            and efficiently as possible toward good designs. That means concentrating on
                            roles and activities and glossing over stuff that is less critical to speedy
                            solutions.

                            Prof. Larry Constantine, IDSA, ACM Fellow
                            Universidade da Madeira | Madeira Interactive Technologies Institute
                          • William Hudson
                            Thanks, Larry. Very interesting. Do you know when Rebecca first started talking about roles? I have a paper here from Jacobson dated 1987 that describes their
                            Message 13 of 23 , Mar 27, 2013
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                              Thanks, Larry. Very interesting. Do you know when Rebecca first started
                              talking about roles? I have a paper here from Jacobson dated 1987 that
                              describes their use in OO development.

                              BTW, I wasn't suggesting that designers of information systems should
                              thoroughly research roles and their interrelationships. My point is more
                              that roles are not a very useful focus of attention in many systems.

                              Regards,

                              William


                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
                              [mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry Constantine
                              Sent: 27 March 2013 13:06
                              To: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: RE: [agile-usability] Origins of user stories

                              William said:

                              > A role is a systemizing concept so really makes no allowance for needs
                              > of
                              the individual. Using it to represent users glosses over many of the
                              inter-role issues like role ambiguity, role incompatibility, role conflict
                              and so on. Of course, we have Ivar Jacobson and use cases to thank for
                              roles, and they're not entirely without merit, but someone filling role A in
                              one context of use may have quite different needs to someone filling the
                              same role in a different context. <

                              The user role concept traces back to contributions from Rebecca Wirfs-Brock
                              and was developed and elaborated in usage-centered design and later
                              model-driven activity-centered design (Constantine and Lockwood). A role is
                              a relationship between users and a system or service and is defined (ala
                              Wirfs-Brock) by a characteristic set of needs, expectations, interests, and
                              responsibilities in relation to the system/service and in the context of the
                              activity in which the user is participating. As such, a user role focuses
                              precisely on those issues most salient to effective interaction design (see
                              my chapter in The Persona Lifecycle for persuasive support). That it blurs
                              or compresses "individual differences" is precisely why it is a more compact
                              and efficient model, particularly for agile design and development.
                              Individual incumbents in a role vary immensely; the role itself is are far
                              less variable. Individuals are extremely complicated; roles are far simpler.
                              A well-formulated role absolutely does make allowance for the needs of the
                              individual, but not as an individual, not as a person, but rather as an
                              individual in a particular activity and in a particular relationship to a
                              designed artifact.

                              [snipped]
                            • Gerard Meszaros
                              ... Yes, they used cards for all sorts of purposes including organizing presentations by putting each thing they wanted to talk about onto a card. Easy to
                              Message 14 of 23 , Mar 27, 2013
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                                On 3/26/2013 10:03 PM, Adam Sroka wrote:
                                > I can't remember who said it or the exact context, but I remember hearing that
                                > Ward and Kent really liked using cards for a variety of different things and
                                > that when stories came along it was just a natural fit.
                                >
                                >

                                Yes, they used cards for all sorts of purposes including organizing
                                presentations by putting each thing they wanted to talk about onto a card. Easy
                                to reorganize the content simply by moving the card. Other agilist/OO people
                                have adopted this style of presentation "notes" most notably (Uncle) Bob Martin
                                (who rarely uses visuals in presentation) and Ron Jeffries (another CCC team
                                member.)

                                Gerard

                                --
                                Gerard Meszaros
                                Lean/Agile Coach/Mentor/Trainer
                                http://www.gerardmeszaros.com
                                1-403-827-2967

                                Author of the Jolt Productivity Award winning book "xUnit Test Patterns -
                                Refactoring Test Code" and winner of the "Programming with the Stars"
                                competition at Agile 2009. Learn more at http://xunitpatterns.com/index.html
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