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RE: [agile-usability] Origins of user stories

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  • William Hudson
    Hi, Larry. Nice to hear from you. I have since come across a document entitled User Stories Done Right: Requirements by Jeff Sutherland. However, it has a
    Message 1 of 23 , Mar 26, 2013
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      Hi, Larry. Nice to hear from you.

       

      I have since come across a document entitled “User Stories Done Right: Requirements” by Jeff Sutherland. However, it has a copyright footer that reads ‘1993 – 2007’ so I’m trying to get in touch with Jeff to find the real date. Since the term is in the article title I’m supposing that it might be the earlier date.

       

      Regards,

       

      William

       

      From: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com [mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry Constantine
      Sent: 26 March 2013 11:15
      To: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [agile-usability] Origins of user stories

       




      AFAIK, Kent Beck first introduced the term with its contemporary usage. Of course, meanings evolve, and the user stories of the new century, especially when written by the IxD team, are quite different from those from the early days, which were far less focused and informed by IxD concerns.

       

      ~~Prof. Larry Constantine, IDSA, ACM Fellow

          Universidade da Madeira | Madeira Interactive Technologies Institute

       

      [snipped]

    • William Hudson
      Adrian - I only just found your reply to my note to CHI-WEB (my email filter stuck it somewhere I wasn t expecting). So sorry for ignoring you earlier . I
      Message 2 of 23 , Mar 26, 2013
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        Adrian -

        I only just found your reply to my note to CHI-WEB (my email filter stuck it
        somewhere I wasn't expecting). So sorry for ignoring you earlier<g>.

        I don't mind that different people do different things and still call them
        user stories. The basic idea is that you put a story of use on a small card.
        I'm thinking now that it might have come from Scrum (see my reply to Larry
        Constantine - you also hinted at this in your earlier note). Their
        development into the current 'As a <role>...' format is interesting and of
        course, part of the picture.

        Just to fill people in on the motive - if you are going to write on a topic,
        you start with what we already know and the background leading up to it.
        When I did this for the card sorting article I wrote for the Interaction
        Design Encyclopedia
        (http://www.interaction-design.org/encyclopedia/card_sorting.html), I found
        references to card sorting (in psychology) as far back as 1886. The term
        'user story' is not that uncommon, but coupled with writing them on small
        cards in a software development process it becomes more specific.

        So I may have it back to Jeff Sutherland in 1993 now. Interestingly, in the
        ACM Digital Library there is almost no mention prior to 1999.

        Regards,

        William


        -----Original Message-----
        From: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
        [mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Adrian Howard
        Sent: 26 March 2013 11:41
        To: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [agile-usability] Re: Origins of user stories

        On 26 March 2013 10:54, william.syntagm <william.hudson@...>
        wrote:
        > PS - Comments in the XP group about Jack Carrol's scenario-based design
        (and other HCI/UCD thinking) are not really relevant. I'm trying to find out
        where 'user story' comes from in the way we currently use it. If it did
        suddenly materialize in 1996, that's fine, but I'd like to be sure.

        Which brings me back to my question when you asked this on the CHI list ;-)

        What exactly do you mean by "user story". The C3 teams stories are fairly
        different from the way many folk structure user stories now...
        and IIRC they were called "Customer Stories" at that point.

        Scrum teams were sticking things on cards on walls before 96. Do they count
        as user stories?

        Hell - I was putting sh*t that need doing on cards in the 80's - which I
        copied from my Dad the engineer when I was a kid. Do they count as user
        stories?

        Which user story are you after?

        Cheers,

        Adrian
        --
        http://quietstars.com adrianh@... twitter.com/adrianh
        t. +44 (0)7752 419080 skype adrianjohnhoward pinboard.in/u:adrianh


        ------------------------------------

        Yahoo! Groups Links
      • Larry Constantine
        I believe Jeff Sutherland presented that particular talk at GBC/ACM in 2007 (April 28 according to GBC/ACm site). The copyright claim spans back to earlier
        Message 3 of 23 , Mar 26, 2013
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          I believe Jeff Sutherland presented that particular talk at GBC/ACM in 2007 (April 28 according to GBC/ACm site). The copyright claim spans back to earlier material. I do not believe he coined the card-based modeling term.

           

          Prof. Larry Constantine, IDSA, ACM Fellow

          Universidade da Madeira | Madeira Interactive Technologies Institute

           

           

          From: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com [mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of William Hudson
          Sent: Tuesday, 26 March, 2013 07:49
          To: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [agile-usability] Origins of user stories

           

          Hi, Larry. Nice to hear from you.

           

          I have since come across a document entitled “User Stories Done Right: Requirements” by Jeff Sutherland. However, it has a copyright footer that reads ‘1993 – 2007’ so I’m trying to get in touch with Jeff to find the real date. Since the term is in the article title I’m supposing that it might be the earlier date.

           

          Regards,

           

          William

           

          From: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com [mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry Constantine
          Sent: 26 March 2013 11:15
          To: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [agile-usability] Origins of user stories

           



          AFAIK, Kent Beck first introduced the term with its contemporary usage. Of course, meanings evolve, and the user stories of the new century, especially when written by the IxD team, are quite different from those from the early days, which were far less focused and informed by IxD concerns.

           

          ~~Prof. Larry Constantine, IDSA, ACM Fellow

              Universidade da Madeira | Madeira Interactive Technologies Institute

           

          [snipped]

        • William Hudson
          Larry - Thanks for the clarification. I was coming to that conclusion myself even though the Google result in question seems to be dated 1993. Regards, William
          Message 4 of 23 , Mar 26, 2013
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            Larry –

             

            Thanks for the clarification. I was coming to that conclusion myself even though the Google result in question seems to be dated 1993.

             

            Regards,

             

            William

             

            From: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com [mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry Constantine
            Sent: 26 March 2013 13:25
            To: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
            Cc: William Hudson
            Subject: RE: [agile-usability] Origins of user stories

             




            I believe Jeff Sutherland presented that particular talk at GBC/ACM in 2007 (April 28 according to GBC/ACm site). The copyright claim spans back to earlier material. I do not believe he coined the card-based modeling term.

             

            Prof. Larry Constantine, IDSA, ACM Fellow

            Universidade da Madeira | Madeira Interactive Technologies Institute

             

             

            From: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com [mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of William Hudson
            Sent: Tuesday, 26 March, 2013 07:49
            To: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [agile-usability] Origins of user stories

             

            Hi, Larry. Nice to hear from you.

             

            I have since come across a document entitled “User Stories Done Right: Requirements” by Jeff Sutherland. However, it has a copyright footer that reads ‘1993 – 2007’ so I’m trying to get in touch with Jeff to find the real date. Since the term is in the article title I’m supposing that it might be the earlier date.

             

            Regards,

             

            William

             

            From: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com [mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry Constantine
            Sent: 26 March 2013 11:15
            To: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [agile-usability] Origins of user stories

             

             

            AFAIK, Kent Beck first introduced the term with its contemporary usage. Of course, meanings evolve, and the user stories of the new century, especially when written by the IxD team, are quite different from those from the early days, which were far less focused and informed by IxD concerns.

             

            ~~Prof. Larry Constantine, IDSA, ACM Fellow

                Universidade da Madeira | Madeira Interactive Technologies Institute

             

            [snipped]




          • Adrian Howard
            I m moderately the certain that the term user story came out of the XP crowd (possibly via being called customer stories first - my memory is poor). The
            Message 5 of 23 , Mar 26, 2013
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              I'm moderately the certain that the term "user story" came out of the
              XP crowd (possibly via being called "customer stories" first - my
              memory is poor). The Scrum world talked about Product Backlog Items
              and Sprint Backlog Items.

              The things on the cards may well be similar though. You'd need to ask
              early Scrum team folk to be sure.

              So you may be looking for the same practice with a different name.

              The focus on the card being the token for the conversations that
              define the spec - rather than being the spec artefact in toto was
              something that came from the XP folk more. At least that was the
              impression I had in the late 90's.

              Adrian

              On 26 March 2013 11:48, William Hudson <william.hudson@...> wrote:
              > Hi, Larry. Nice to hear from you.
              >
              >
              >
              > I have since come across a document entitled “User Stories Done Right:
              > Requirements” by Jeff Sutherland. However, it has a copyright footer that
              > reads ‘1993 – 2007’ so I’m trying to get in touch with Jeff to find the real
              > date. Since the term is in the article title I’m supposing that it might be
              > the earlier date.
              >
              >
              >
              > Regards,
              >
              >
              >
              > William
              >
              >
              >
              > From: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
              > [mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry Constantine
              > Sent: 26 March 2013 11:15
              > To: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: RE: [agile-usability] Origins of user stories
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > AFAIK, Kent Beck first introduced the term with its contemporary usage. Of
              > course, meanings evolve, and the user stories of the new century, especially
              > when written by the IxD team, are quite different from those from the early
              > days, which were far less focused and informed by IxD concerns.
              >
              >
              >
              > ~~Prof. Larry Constantine, IDSA, ACM Fellow
              >
              > Universidade da Madeira | Madeira Interactive Technologies Institute
              >
              >
              >
              > [snipped]



              --
              http://quietstars.com adrianh@... twitter.com/adrianh
              t. +44 (0)7752 419080 skype adrianjohnhoward pinboard.in/u:adrianh
            • spbyh
              I may have some of the original WIKI postings and emails from the CCC project back in the 90s where the term was used by Beck, Jeffries, Astels, Cunningham, et
              Message 6 of 23 , Mar 26, 2013
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                I may have some of the original WIKI postings and emails from the CCC project back in the 90s where the term was used by Beck, Jeffries, Astels, Cunningham, et al. I do have some original Ron Jeffries user stories on cards and they are not in the Rachel Davis format which apparently started around 2005.  Ron put the estimate on the front of the card and the acceptance test on the back of the card, something that we didn't do.  I don't know who actually came up with the idea of using cards.
                If it can be traced back before CCC, you might have to go to the Smalltalk world, but I have the distinct impression the concept evolved out of the work done on CCC.
                =steve



                -----Original Message-----
                From: Adrian Howard <adrianh@...>
                To: agile-usability <agile-usability@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Tue, Mar 26, 2013 9:09 am
                Subject: Re: [agile-usability] Origins of user stories

                I'm moderately the certain that the term "user story" came out of the
                XP crowd (possibly via being called "customer stories" first - my
                memory is poor). The Scrum world talked about Product Backlog Items
                and Sprint Backlog Items.
                
                The things on the cards may well be similar though. You'd need to ask
                early Scrum team folk to be sure.
                
                So you may be looking for the same practice with a different name.
                
                The focus on the card being the token for the conversations that
                define the spec - rather than being the spec artefact in toto was
                something that came from the XP folk more. At least that was the
                impression I had in the late 90's.
                
                Adrian
                
                
                On 26 March 2013 11:48, William Hudson <william.hudson@...> wrote: > Hi, Larry. Nice to hear from you. > > > > I have since come across a document entitled “User Stories Done Right: > Requirements” by Jeff Sutherland. However, it has a copyright footer that > reads ‘1993 – 2007’ so I’m trying to get in touch with Jeff to find the real > date. Since the term is in the article title I’m supposing that it might be > the earlier date. > > > > Regards, > > > > William > > > > From: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry Constantine > Sent: 26 March 2013 11:15 > To: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [agile-usability] Origins of user stories > > > > > > > AFAIK, Kent Beck first introduced the term with its contemporary usage. Of > course, meanings evolve, and the user stories of the new century, especially > when written by the IxD team, are quite different from those from the early > days, which were far less focused and informed by IxD concerns. > > > > ~~Prof. Larry Constantine, IDSA, ACM Fellow > > Universidade da Madeira | Madeira Interactive Technologies Institute > > > > [snipped] -- http://quietstars.com adrianh@... twitter.com/adrianh t. +44 (0)7752 419080 skype adrianjohnhoward pinboard.in/u:adrianh ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/agile-usability/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/agile-usability/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: agile-usability-digest@yahoogroups.com agile-usability-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: agile-usability-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              • spbyh
                Just a bit more. In 1989 Ward Cunningham and Kent Beck (then at Apple) gave a paper at OOPSLA89 which included the concept of the CRC card. I suspect that the
                Message 7 of 23 , Mar 26, 2013
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                  Just a bit more.  In 1989 Ward Cunningham and Kent Beck (then at Apple) gave a paper at OOPSLA89 which included the concept of the CRC card. I suspect that the CRC card evolved into the user story at CCC as a way to make it more 'user-friendly'. The concepts are similar.
                  =steve



                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Adrian Howard <adrianh@...>
                  To: agile-usability <agile-usability@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Tue, Mar 26, 2013 9:09 am
                  Subject: Re: [agile-usability] Origins of user stories

                  I'm moderately the certain that the term "user story" came out of the
                  XP crowd (possibly via being called "customer stories" first - my
                  memory is poor). The Scrum world talked about Product Backlog Items
                  and Sprint Backlog Items.
                  
                  The things on the cards may well be similar though. You'd need to ask
                  early Scrum team folk to be sure.
                  
                  So you may be looking for the same practice with a different name.
                  
                  The focus on the card being the token for the conversations that
                  define the spec - rather than being the spec artefact in toto was
                  something that came from the XP folk more. At least that was the
                  impression I had in the late 90's.
                  
                  Adrian
                  
                  
                  On 26 March 2013 11:48, William Hudson <william.hudson@...> wrote: > Hi, Larry. Nice to hear from you. > > > > I have since come across a document entitled “User Stories Done Right: > Requirements” by Jeff Sutherland. However, it has a copyright footer that > reads ‘1993 – 2007’ so I’m trying to get in touch with Jeff to find the real > date. Since the term is in the article title I’m supposing that it might be > the earlier date. > > > > Regards, > > > > William > > > > From: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry Constantine > Sent: 26 March 2013 11:15 > To: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [agile-usability] Origins of user stories > > > > > > > AFAIK, Kent Beck first introduced the term with its contemporary usage. Of > course, meanings evolve, and the user stories of the new century, especially > when written by the IxD team, are quite different from those from the early > days, which were far less focused and informed by IxD concerns. > > > > ~~Prof. Larry Constantine, IDSA, ACM Fellow > > Universidade da Madeira | Madeira Interactive Technologies Institute > > > > [snipped] -- http://quietstars.com adrianh@... twitter.com/adrianh t. +44 (0)7752 419080 skype adrianjohnhoward pinboard.in/u:adrianh ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/agile-usability/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/agile-usability/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: agile-usability-digest@yahoogroups.com agile-usability-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: agile-usability-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                • Gerard Meszaros
                  I was a member of the Hillside Group along with Kent Beck and Ward Cunningham in 1995/1996 and was present at the first 4 PLOP conferences. The following is my
                  Message 8 of 23 , Mar 26, 2013
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                    I was a member of the Hillside Group along with Kent Beck and Ward Cunningham in
                    1995/1996 and was present at the first 4 PLOP conferences. The following is my
                    understanding of the origins of XP and User Stories based on my direct contacts
                    with them in that time frame.

                    CRC cards (co-invented by Ward and were used in domain modeling and represent a
                    single domain object class and its responsibilities and collaborators. (See
                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class-responsibility-collaboration_card) The user
                    story card represents something the Customer wanted the Dev Team to build for
                    them. Other than both being written on cards, there is really no similarity. So
                    the 1989 OOPSLA paper is a red herring.

                    You might take a look at the PLOP 1995 paper called Episodes which is the first
                    writing I'm aware of that describes the process that came to be called eXtreme
                    Programming. (see http://c2.com/ppr/episodes.html) It doesn't mention User
                    Stories by name but refer to "Implied Requirement" and "Work Split" for the
                    seeds of the user story concept.

                    Best wishes,

                    Gerard


                    On 3/26/2013 8:09 PM, spbroi@... wrote:
                    > Just a bit more. In 1989 Ward Cunningham and Kent Beck (then at Apple) gave a
                    > paper at OOPSLA89which included the concept of the CRC card. I suspect that the
                    > CRC card evolved into the user story at CCC as a way to make it more
                    > 'user-friendly'. The concepts are similar.
                    > =steve
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: Adrian Howard <adrianh@...>
                    > To: agile-usability <agile-usability@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Tue, Mar 26, 2013 9:09 am
                    > Subject: Re: [agile-usability] Origins of user stories
                    >
                    > I'm moderately the certain that the term "user story" came out of the
                    > XP crowd (possibly via being called "customer stories" first - my
                    > memory is poor). The Scrum world talked about Product Backlog Items
                    > and Sprint Backlog Items.
                    >
                    > The things on the cards may well be similar though. You'd need to ask
                    > early Scrum team folk to be sure.
                    >
                    > So you may be looking for the same practice with a different name.
                    >
                    > The focus on the card being the token for the conversations that
                    > define the spec - rather than being the spec artefact in toto was
                    > something that came from the XP folk more. At least that was the
                    > impression I had in the late 90's.
                    >
                    > Adrian
                    >
                    > On 26 March 2013 11:48, William Hudson <william.hudson@... <mailto:william.hudson@...>> wrote:
                    >> Hi, Larry. Nice to hear from you.
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> I have since come across a document entitled “User Stories Done Right:
                    >> Requirements” by Jeff Sutherland. However, it has a copyright footer that
                    >> reads ‘1993 – 2007’ so I’m trying to get in touch with Jeff to find the real
                    >> date. Since the term is in the article title I’m supposing that it might be
                    >> the earlier date.
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> Regards,
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> William
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> From:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com <mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com>
                    >> [mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com <mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com?>] On Behalf Of Larry Constantine
                    >> Sent: 26 March 2013 11:15
                    >> To:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com <mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com>
                    >> Subject: RE: [agile-usability] Origins of user stories
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> AFAIK, Kent Beck first introduced the term with its contemporary usage. Of
                    >> course, meanings evolve, and the user stories of the new century, especially
                    >> when written by the IxD team, are quite different from those from the early
                    >> days, which were far less focused and informed by IxD concerns.
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> ~~Prof. Larry Constantine, IDSA, ACM Fellow
                    >>
                    >> Universidade da Madeira | Madeira Interactive Technologies Institute
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> [snipped]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --
                    > http://quietstars.com adrianh@... <mailto:adrianh@...> twitter.com/adrianh
                    > t. +44 (0)7752 419080 skype adrianjohnhoward pinboard.in/u:adrianh
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >

                    --
                    Gerard Meszaros
                    Lean/Agile Coach/Mentor/Trainer
                    http://www.gerardmeszaros.com
                    1-403-827-2967

                    Author of the Jolt Productivity Award winning book "xUnit Test Patterns -
                    Refactoring Test Code" and winner of the "Programming with the Stars"
                    competition at Agile 2009. Learn more at http://xunitpatterns.com/index.html
                  • Adam Sroka
                    I can t remember who said it or the exact context, but I remember hearing that Ward and Kent really liked using cards for a variety of different things and
                    Message 9 of 23 , Mar 26, 2013
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I can't remember who said it or the exact context, but I remember hearing that Ward and Kent really liked using cards for a variety of different things and that when stories came along it was just a natural fit. 

                      The CRC paper is no smoking gun, but it is evidence that using cards to think about the software they were creating was something they were already doing at least that early. 


                      On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 8:35 PM, Gerard Meszaros <yahoo@...> wrote:
                       

                      I was a member of the Hillside Group along with Kent Beck and Ward Cunningham in
                      1995/1996 and was present at the first 4 PLOP conferences. The following is my
                      understanding of the origins of XP and User Stories based on my direct contacts
                      with them in that time frame.

                      CRC cards (co-invented by Ward and were used in domain modeling and represent a
                      single domain object class and its responsibilities and collaborators. (See
                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class-responsibility-collaboration_card) The user
                      story card represents something the Customer wanted the Dev Team to build for
                      them. Other than both being written on cards, there is really no similarity. So
                      the 1989 OOPSLA paper is a red herring.

                      You might take a look at the PLOP 1995 paper called Episodes which is the first
                      writing I'm aware of that describes the process that came to be called eXtreme
                      Programming. (see http://c2.com/ppr/episodes.html) It doesn't mention User
                      Stories by name but refer to "Implied Requirement" and "Work Split" for the
                      seeds of the user story concept.

                      Best wishes,

                      Gerard



                      On 3/26/2013 8:09 PM, spbroi@... wrote:
                      > Just a bit more. In 1989 Ward Cunningham and Kent Beck (then at Apple) gave a
                      > paper at OOPSLA89which included the concept of the CRC card. I suspect that the

                      > CRC card evolved into the user story at CCC as a way to make it more
                      > 'user-friendly'. The concepts are similar.
                      > =steve
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: Adrian Howard <adrianh@...>
                      > To: agile-usability <agile-usability@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Tue, Mar 26, 2013 9:09 am
                      > Subject: Re: [agile-usability] Origins of user stories
                      >
                      > I'm moderately the certain that the term "user story" came out of the
                      > XP crowd (possibly via being called "customer stories" first - my
                      > memory is poor). The Scrum world talked about Product Backlog Items
                      > and Sprint Backlog Items.
                      >
                      > The things on the cards may well be similar though. You'd need to ask
                      > early Scrum team folk to be sure.
                      >
                      > So you may be looking for the same practice with a different name.
                      >
                      > The focus on the card being the token for the conversations that
                      > define the spec - rather than being the spec artefact in toto was
                      > something that came from the XP folk more. At least that was the
                      > impression I had in the late 90's.
                      >
                      > Adrian
                      >
                      > On 26 March 2013 11:48, William Hudson <william.hudson@... <mailto:william.hudson@...>> wrote:
                      >> Hi, Larry. Nice to hear from you.
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> I have since come across a document entitled “User Stories Done Right:
                      >> Requirements” by Jeff Sutherland. However, it has a copyright footer that
                      >> reads ‘1993 – 2007’ so I’m trying to get in touch with Jeff to find the real
                      >> date. Since the term is in the article title I’m supposing that it might be
                      >> the earlier date.
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> Regards,
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> William
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> From:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com <mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com>
                      >> [mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com <mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com?>] On Behalf Of Larry Constantine

                      >> Sent: 26 March 2013 11:15
                      >> To:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com <mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com>

                      >> Subject: RE: [agile-usability] Origins of user stories
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> AFAIK, Kent Beck first introduced the term with its contemporary usage. Of
                      >> course, meanings evolve, and the user stories of the new century, especially
                      >> when written by the IxD team, are quite different from those from the early
                      >> days, which were far less focused and informed by IxD concerns.
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> ~~Prof. Larry Constantine, IDSA, ACM Fellow
                      >>
                      >> Universidade da Madeira | Madeira Interactive Technologies Institute
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> [snipped]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --
                      > http://quietstars.com adrianh@... <mailto:adrianh@...> twitter.com/adrianh

                      > t. +44 (0)7752 419080 skype adrianjohnhoward pinboard.in/u:adrianh
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >

                      --
                      Gerard Meszaros
                      Lean/Agile Coach/Mentor/Trainer
                      http://www.gerardmeszaros.com
                      1-403-827-2967

                      Author of the Jolt Productivity Award winning book "xUnit Test Patterns -
                      Refactoring Test Code" and winner of the "Programming with the Stars"
                      competition at Agile 2009. Learn more at http://xunitpatterns.com/index.html


                    • William Hudson
                      Many thanks to Steve, Gerard and Adam for their helpful additions. As an OO developer in the 1990 s I have heard of CRC cards, but it seems something of a jump
                      Message 10 of 23 , Mar 27, 2013
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                        Many thanks to Steve, Gerard and Adam for their helpful additions.

                         

                        As an OO developer in the 1990’s I have heard of CRC cards, but it seems something of a jump (conceptually) to user stories. However, I have come across a 1994 paper at Interact that uses the term ‘user stories’ in the correct sense. The authors of that paper have adapted the term ‘war stories’ used in a 1986 paper from Xerox Parc called ‘Narratives at Work’ (does *everything* we do today come from Xerox Parc<g>?)

                         

                        I’d be really interested to see some of the original user stories if possible. From a UCD perspective the shift to roles is not really a benefit to users so it would be good to plot that development. Email me at whudson@... (if you’d prefer not to post them to the list).

                         

                        Regards,

                         

                        William

                         

                        From: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com [mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Adam Sroka
                        Sent: 27 March 2013 04:04
                        To: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
                        Cc: spbroi@...
                        Subject: Re: [agile-usability] Origins of user stories

                         




                        I can't remember who said it or the exact context, but I remember hearing that Ward and Kent really liked using cards for a variety of different things and that when stories came along it was just a natural fit. 

                         

                        The CRC paper is no smoking gun, but it is evidence that using cards to think about the software they were creating was something they were already doing at least that early. 

                         

                        On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 8:35 PM, Gerard Meszaros <yahoo@...> wrote:

                         

                        I was a member of the Hillside Group along with Kent Beck and Ward Cunningham in
                        1995/1996 and was present at the first 4 PLOP conferences. The following is my
                        understanding of the origins of XP and User Stories based on my direct contacts
                        with them in that time frame.

                        CRC cards (co-invented by Ward and were used in domain modeling and represent a
                        single domain object class and its responsibilities and collaborators. (See
                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class-responsibility-collaboration_card) The user
                        story card represents something the Customer wanted the Dev Team to build for
                        them. Other than both being written on cards, there is really no similarity. So
                        the 1989 OOPSLA paper is a red herring.

                        You might take a look at the PLOP 1995 paper called Episodes which is the first
                        writing I'm aware of that describes the process that came to be called eXtreme
                        Programming. (see http://c2.com/ppr/episodes.html) It doesn't mention User
                        Stories by name but refer to "Implied Requirement" and "Work Split" for the
                        seeds of the user story concept.

                        Best wishes,

                        Gerard



                        On 3/26/2013 8:09 PM, spbroi@... wrote:
                        > Just a bit more. In 1989 Ward Cunningham and Kent Beck (then at Apple) gave a

                        > paper at OOPSLA89which included the concept of the CRC card. I suspect that the


                        > CRC card evolved into the user story at CCC as a way to make it more
                        > 'user-friendly'. The concepts are similar.
                        > =steve
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: Adrian Howard <adrianh@...>
                        > To: agile-usability <agile-usability@yahoogroups.com>
                        > Sent: Tue, Mar 26, 2013 9:09 am
                        > Subject: Re: [agile-usability] Origins of user stories
                        >
                        > I'm moderately the certain that the term "user story" came out of the
                        > XP crowd (possibly via being called "customer stories" first - my
                        > memory is poor). The Scrum world talked about Product Backlog Items
                        > and Sprint Backlog Items.
                        >
                        > The things on the cards may well be similar though. You'd need to ask
                        > early Scrum team folk to be sure.
                        >
                        > So you may be looking for the same practice with a different name.
                        >
                        > The focus on the card being the token for the conversations that
                        > define the spec - rather than being the spec artefact in toto was
                        > something that came from the XP folk more. At least that was the
                        > impression I had in the late 90's.
                        >
                        > Adrian
                        >

                        > On 26 March 2013 11:48, William Hudson <william.hudson@... <mailto:william.hudson@...>> wrote:
                        >> Hi, Larry. Nice to hear from you.
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> I have since come across a document entitled “User Stories Done Right:
                        >> Requirements” by Jeff Sutherland. However, it has a copyright footer that
                        >> reads ‘1993 – 2007’ so I’m trying to get in touch with Jeff to find the real
                        >> date. Since the term is in the article title I’m supposing that it might be
                        >> the earlier date.
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> Regards,
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> William
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> From:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com <mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com>

                        >> [mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com <mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com?>] On Behalf Of Larry Constantine


                        >> Sent: 26 March 2013 11:15

                        >> To:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com <mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com>


                        >> Subject: RE: [agile-usability] Origins of user stories
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> AFAIK, Kent Beck first introduced the term with its contemporary usage. Of
                        >> course, meanings evolve, and the user stories of the new century, especially
                        >> when written by the IxD team, are quite different from those from the early
                        >> days, which were far less focused and informed by IxD concerns.
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> ~~Prof. Larry Constantine, IDSA, ACM Fellow
                        >>
                        >> Universidade da Madeira | Madeira Interactive Technologies Institute
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> [snipped]
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --

                        > http://quietstars.com adrianh@... <mailto:adrianh@...> twitter.com/adrianh


                        > t. +44 (0)7752 419080 skype adrianjohnhoward pinboard.in/u:adrianh
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >

                        --
                        Gerard Meszaros
                        Lean/Agile Coach/Mentor/Trainer
                        http://www.gerardmeszaros.com
                        1-403-827-2967

                        Author of the Jolt Productivity Award winning book "xUnit Test Patterns -
                        Refactoring Test Code" and winner of the "Programming with the Stars"
                        competition at Agile 2009. Learn more at http://xunitpatterns.com/index.html

                         




                      • Adrian Howard
                        Hey William, ... That s an interesting statement to me. Could you expand upon it? Adrian -- http://quietstars.com adrianh@quietstars.com
                        Message 11 of 23 , Mar 27, 2013
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                          Hey William,

                          On 27 March 2013 11:34, William Hudson <william.hudson@...> wrote:
                          > I’d be really interested to see some of the original user stories if
                          > possible. From a UCD perspective the shift to roles is not really a benefit
                          > to users so it would be good to plot that development.

                          That's an interesting statement to me. Could you expand upon it?

                          Adrian
                          --
                          http://quietstars.com adrianh@... twitter.com/adrianh
                          t. +44 (0)7752 419080 skype adrianjohnhoward pinboard.in/u:adrianh
                        • William Hudson
                          A role is a systemizing concept so really makes no allowance for needs of the individual. Using it to represent users glosses over many of the inter-role
                          Message 12 of 23 , Mar 27, 2013
                          • 0 Attachment
                            A role is a systemizing concept so really makes no allowance for needs of
                            the individual. Using it to represent users glosses over many of the
                            inter-role issues like role ambiguity, role incompatibility, role conflict
                            and so on. Of course, we have Ivar Jacobson and use cases to thank for
                            roles, and they're not entirely without merit, but someone filling role A in
                            one context of use may have quite different needs to someone filling the
                            same role in a different context.

                            Regards,

                            William


                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
                            [mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Adrian Howard
                            Sent: 27 March 2013 11:39
                            To: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [agile-usability] Origins of user stories

                            Hey William,

                            On 27 March 2013 11:34, William Hudson <william.hudson@...> wrote:
                            > I'd be really interested to see some of the original user stories if
                            > possible. From a UCD perspective the shift to roles is not really a
                            > benefit to users so it would be good to plot that development.

                            That's an interesting statement to me. Could you expand upon it?

                            Adrian
                            --
                            http://quietstars.com adrianh@... twitter.com/adrianh
                            t. +44 (0)7752 419080 skype adrianjohnhoward pinboard.in/u:adrianh


                            ------------------------------------

                            Yahoo! Groups Links
                          • Adrian Howard
                            I d question whether the role slot in user stories often gets used in that way. The use-case role and the user story role tend to be used fairly
                            Message 13 of 23 , Mar 27, 2013
                            • 0 Attachment
                              I'd question whether the role slot in user stories often gets used in
                              that way. The use-case "role" and the user story "role" tend to be
                              used fairly differently in my experience.

                              We hit the same name - different usage problem again.

                              They're normally much closer to customer archetypes / persona in my
                              experience (indeed most agile ux folk I know who adopt the story
                              format slot persona into the role hole).

                              Cheers,

                              Adrian

                              On 27 March 2013 12:03, William Hudson <william.hudson@...> wrote:
                              > A role is a systemizing concept so really makes no allowance for needs of
                              > the individual. Using it to represent users glosses over many of the
                              > inter-role issues like role ambiguity, role incompatibility, role conflict
                              > and so on. Of course, we have Ivar Jacobson and use cases to thank for
                              > roles, and they're not entirely without merit, but someone filling role A in
                              > one context of use may have quite different needs to someone filling the
                              > same role in a different context.
                              >
                              > Regards,
                              >
                              > William
                              >
                              >
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
                              > [mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Adrian Howard
                              > Sent: 27 March 2013 11:39
                              > To: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: Re: [agile-usability] Origins of user stories
                              >
                              > Hey William,
                              >
                              > On 27 March 2013 11:34, William Hudson <william.hudson@...> wrote:
                              >> I'd be really interested to see some of the original user stories if
                              >> possible. From a UCD perspective the shift to roles is not really a
                              >> benefit to users so it would be good to plot that development.
                              >
                              > That's an interesting statement to me. Could you expand upon it?
                              >
                              > Adrian
                              > --
                              > http://quietstars.com adrianh@... twitter.com/adrianh
                              > t. +44 (0)7752 419080 skype adrianjohnhoward pinboard.in/u:adrianh
                              >
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >



                              --
                              http://quietstars.com adrianh@... twitter.com/adrianh
                              t. +44 (0)7752 419080 skype adrianjohnhoward pinboard.in/u:adrianh
                            • William Hudson
                              Agilists who know little or nothing about usability/UCD do try to take roles literally. I was talking with a client just a couple of weeks ago who pointed this
                              Message 14 of 23 , Mar 27, 2013
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                                Agilists who know little or nothing about usability/UCD do try to take roles
                                literally. I was talking with a client just a couple of weeks ago who
                                pointed this out as a problem with their introduction of UX design.

                                Regards,

                                William


                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
                                [mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Adrian Howard
                                Sent: 27 March 2013 12:11
                                To: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [agile-usability] Origins of user stories

                                I'd question whether the role slot in user stories often gets used in that
                                way. The use-case "role" and the user story "role" tend to be used fairly
                                differently in my experience.

                                We hit the same name - different usage problem again.

                                They're normally much closer to customer archetypes / persona in my
                                experience (indeed most agile ux folk I know who adopt the story format slot
                                persona into the role hole).

                                Cheers,

                                Adrian

                                [snipped]
                              • Adrian Howard
                                ... My experiences differ. It does happen - of course - but my experiences of teams, even those without UX input, is that the roles are more often treated as
                                Message 15 of 23 , Mar 27, 2013
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  On 27 March 2013 12:22, William Hudson <william.hudson@...> wrote:
                                  > Agilists who know little or nothing about usability/UCD do try to take roles
                                  > literally. I was talking with a client just a couple of weeks ago who
                                  > pointed this out as a problem with their introduction of UX design.

                                  My experiences differ.

                                  It does happen - of course - but my experiences of teams, even those
                                  without UX input, is that the roles are more often treated as market
                                  segments / archetypes / etc.

                                  They're certainly seem to treated much more generally than use-case type roles.

                                  Possibly you're seeing teams who are primarily transferring from
                                  use-cases to stories? In those situations it's certainly a common
                                  problem.

                                  Cheers,

                                  Adrian
                                  --
                                  http://quietstars.com adrianh@... twitter.com/adrianh
                                  t. +44 (0)7752 419080 skype adrianjohnhoward pinboard.in/u:adrianh
                                • Larry Constantine
                                  ... the individual. Using it to represent users glosses over many of the inter-role issues like role ambiguity, role incompatibility, role conflict and so on.
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Mar 27, 2013
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    William said:

                                    > A role is a systemizing concept so really makes no allowance for needs of
                                    the individual. Using it to represent users glosses over many of the
                                    inter-role issues like role ambiguity, role incompatibility, role conflict
                                    and so on. Of course, we have Ivar Jacobson and use cases to thank for
                                    roles, and they're not entirely without merit, but someone filling role A in
                                    one context of use may have quite different needs to someone filling the
                                    same role in a different context. <

                                    The user role concept traces back to contributions from Rebecca Wirfs-Brock
                                    and was developed and elaborated in usage-centered design and later
                                    model-driven activity-centered design (Constantine and Lockwood). A role is
                                    a relationship between users and a system or service and is defined (ala
                                    Wirfs-Brock) by a characteristic set of needs, expectations, interests, and
                                    responsibilities in relation to the system/service and in the context of the
                                    activity in which the user is participating. As such, a user role focuses
                                    precisely on those issues most salient to effective interaction design (see
                                    my chapter in The Persona Lifecycle for persuasive support). That it blurs
                                    or compresses "individual differences" is precisely why it is a more compact
                                    and efficient model, particularly for agile design and development.
                                    Individual incumbents in a role vary immensely; the role itself is are far
                                    less variable. Individuals are extremely complicated; roles are far simpler.
                                    A well-formulated role absolutely does make allowance for the needs of the
                                    individual, but not as an individual, not as a person, but rather as an
                                    individual in a particular activity and in a particular relationship to a
                                    designed artifact.

                                    The critical issue in modeling for agile IxD/UxD is to model only what is
                                    most important to model, compactly and concisely, to focus on what is likely
                                    to yield the biggest payoff in guidance toward an effective design in the
                                    least amount of time. The templated user role profiles employed in
                                    usage-centered design and human activity modeling do just that,
                                    concentrating the modeler/designer's attention on those things that are most
                                    likely to directly impact and shape the design.

                                    The issues you mention-role ambiguity, role incompatibility, role
                                    conflict-are interesting from an intellectual standpoint and often play some
                                    part in a complete analysis of human activity (we incorporate them in our
                                    application of activity-theory to educational research, for instance), but
                                    the relationship of the actor in role to the designed artifact is far more
                                    relevant to designing that system or service. Inter-role issues that may be
                                    important in organizational dynamics or social psychology are typically far
                                    less central to getting the design right.

                                    In the most recent incarnation of the user role profile that we use in
                                    model-driven agile design (not yet written up), we have reduced the template
                                    further to include just 3 categories (ORB): Orientation, Responsibilities,
                                    and Background. Orientation and attitude of the actor in role to focal
                                    activities and to the designed artifact; Responsibilities of the actor in
                                    role within focal activities and with the designed artifact; Background
                                    characteristics expected in relation to use of the designed artifact within
                                    focal activities. This is a vast simplification from the concept of role in
                                    activity theory and role theory, but it zeroes in on the stuff that is most
                                    likely to make a difference, covering the bases on a single index card.

                                    Modeling efficiency and design leverage are behind most of my work and the
                                    usage/activity-centered design community. It is why we favor concise role
                                    profiles over the decorative embellishments of personas, why essential use
                                    cases win out over traditional concrete use cases and scenarios.

                                    Psychologists and humanists can plead for attention to the individual, but,
                                    as Don Norman and I pointed out some years ago, that is precisely the
                                    problem. It is the focus on humans, on individuals, that diverts our
                                    attention from the more important focus on what people are doing and trying
                                    to do, that is, on activity as mediated by designed artifacts. This badly
                                    needed shift in focus was behind my development of human activity modeling
                                    (with Don's encouragement and contributions) and then its adaptation to
                                    agile design and development. We drive AD&D by activity models not to
                                    capture a complete analysis embodied in those models but to move as quickly
                                    and efficiently as possible toward good designs. That means concentrating on
                                    roles and activities and glossing over stuff that is less critical to speedy
                                    solutions.

                                    Prof. Larry Constantine, IDSA, ACM Fellow
                                    Universidade da Madeira | Madeira Interactive Technologies Institute
                                  • William Hudson
                                    Thanks, Larry. Very interesting. Do you know when Rebecca first started talking about roles? I have a paper here from Jacobson dated 1987 that describes their
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Mar 27, 2013
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Thanks, Larry. Very interesting. Do you know when Rebecca first started
                                      talking about roles? I have a paper here from Jacobson dated 1987 that
                                      describes their use in OO development.

                                      BTW, I wasn't suggesting that designers of information systems should
                                      thoroughly research roles and their interrelationships. My point is more
                                      that roles are not a very useful focus of attention in many systems.

                                      Regards,

                                      William


                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
                                      [mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry Constantine
                                      Sent: 27 March 2013 13:06
                                      To: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: RE: [agile-usability] Origins of user stories

                                      William said:

                                      > A role is a systemizing concept so really makes no allowance for needs
                                      > of
                                      the individual. Using it to represent users glosses over many of the
                                      inter-role issues like role ambiguity, role incompatibility, role conflict
                                      and so on. Of course, we have Ivar Jacobson and use cases to thank for
                                      roles, and they're not entirely without merit, but someone filling role A in
                                      one context of use may have quite different needs to someone filling the
                                      same role in a different context. <

                                      The user role concept traces back to contributions from Rebecca Wirfs-Brock
                                      and was developed and elaborated in usage-centered design and later
                                      model-driven activity-centered design (Constantine and Lockwood). A role is
                                      a relationship between users and a system or service and is defined (ala
                                      Wirfs-Brock) by a characteristic set of needs, expectations, interests, and
                                      responsibilities in relation to the system/service and in the context of the
                                      activity in which the user is participating. As such, a user role focuses
                                      precisely on those issues most salient to effective interaction design (see
                                      my chapter in The Persona Lifecycle for persuasive support). That it blurs
                                      or compresses "individual differences" is precisely why it is a more compact
                                      and efficient model, particularly for agile design and development.
                                      Individual incumbents in a role vary immensely; the role itself is are far
                                      less variable. Individuals are extremely complicated; roles are far simpler.
                                      A well-formulated role absolutely does make allowance for the needs of the
                                      individual, but not as an individual, not as a person, but rather as an
                                      individual in a particular activity and in a particular relationship to a
                                      designed artifact.

                                      [snipped]
                                    • Gerard Meszaros
                                      ... Yes, they used cards for all sorts of purposes including organizing presentations by putting each thing they wanted to talk about onto a card. Easy to
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Mar 27, 2013
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        On 3/26/2013 10:03 PM, Adam Sroka wrote:
                                        > I can't remember who said it or the exact context, but I remember hearing that
                                        > Ward and Kent really liked using cards for a variety of different things and
                                        > that when stories came along it was just a natural fit.
                                        >
                                        >

                                        Yes, they used cards for all sorts of purposes including organizing
                                        presentations by putting each thing they wanted to talk about onto a card. Easy
                                        to reorganize the content simply by moving the card. Other agilist/OO people
                                        have adopted this style of presentation "notes" most notably (Uncle) Bob Martin
                                        (who rarely uses visuals in presentation) and Ron Jeffries (another CCC team
                                        member.)

                                        Gerard

                                        --
                                        Gerard Meszaros
                                        Lean/Agile Coach/Mentor/Trainer
                                        http://www.gerardmeszaros.com
                                        1-403-827-2967

                                        Author of the Jolt Productivity Award winning book "xUnit Test Patterns -
                                        Refactoring Test Code" and winner of the "Programming with the Stars"
                                        competition at Agile 2009. Learn more at http://xunitpatterns.com/index.html
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