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Re: [agile-usability] Re: Question_Agile Process_ UIE Virtual Seminar

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  • Robert Biddle
    Um, I was in agreement about UI designers working collaboratively with programmers. But now I m getting concerned about some ideas that seem too simplistic.
    Message 1 of 64 , Mar 10, 2009
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      Um, I was in agreement about UI designers working collaboratively with
      programmers. But now I'm getting concerned about some ideas that seem
      too simplistic. Some of us have argued these points on this mailing
      list before. But just to identify these issues, from my point of view:

      * I do not think there is any one accepted way to link UI design and
      agile software development. People are doing different things and we
      need reports of experience on how things turn out.

      * Although we can regard UI researchers and UI designers as part of
      the team, we should also recognize they may also be part of the
      customer. In particular, they may specify stories. Also, while they
      are the programmers will be working on the same product, it does not
      mean that have to be working on the same stories in the same
      iteration: see for example Lynn Miller's interleaved iterations,
      where the programmers work on one set of stories while the UI people
      design the next set and test the last set.

      * In UI work it is generally accepted that one cannot simply ask users
      what they want, deliver it, and expect things to work well. Users
      are often too close to the action, and although they may experience
      problems and desires, they cannot necessarily articulate
      solutions. In these cases observation, ethnography, and exploring
      several varying prototypes can help.

      * Similarly, in UI work it is generally accepted that low-fidelity
      prototypes can often elicit better feedback than high-fidelity
      prototypes or fully working software. Basically, it seems that
      things being too "finished" seems to act an inhibitor on
      articulation of important potential improvements.

      * Although it makes sense to design on the basis of user research and
      careful modeling, it still seems that usability testing is
      essential, because humans are complex choatic systems, and sometimes
      things that seem destined to be fine turn out to be wrong. And it
      is not possible to "test first".

      * Although it makes sense for UI designers and programmers to
      co-locate and collaborate, it also makes sense for UI designers to
      spend lots of time with users, and they may be far away. Co-location
      is powerful, but we have to face that we cannot co-locate with
      everyone all the time.

      I accept that others may have different views, but I think all the
      views above are sufficiently common that they should not just be swept
      away by an unusual destiny in the blue sea of August.

      Ahh, August.
      Or perhaps February. Your hemisphere may vary. Mine has.

      Robt




      Mike Dwyer wrote:
      >
      > First why is it that the people would not stay in the same place?
      >
      > Second how often have you seen this happen. You desing a UI and the
      > user love it, the developers provide code and full fuinctionality and
      > the users tell you they have not gotten what they wanted?
      >
      > Finally if you are getting feedback and taking the time to do a new
      > design before getting the developers involved, how long does it take
      > the users to tell you that it isn’t quite what they wanted?
      >
      > B y you working directly with the developers and the users everyone -
      > including the users get to see the procud as it is developed. If you
      > start with the very basics of what the users want they will change
      > their minds, but that is OK because much of what they now want will be
      > based on what they have working. Thiis way the usersw are being guided
      > by the product as it is finished and they will focus on what they need
      > and not what they think will be cool. You end up with a product
      > working that always meets the current needs of the user and continues
      > to be refined to better meet the users needs.
      >
      > *Mike Dwyer *
      > /Principal, Agile Coach/
      >
      > *BigVisible Solutions*
      > url: http://www.bigvisib le.com <http://www.bigvisible.com/>
      >
      > cell: (978) 376-4422
      >
      > email: mdwyer@bigvisible. com <mailto:asingh@...>
      >
      > *From:* Srinivas Manda [mailto:laksinu@ laksinu.com]
      > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 10, 2009 5:22 PM
      > *To:* agile-usability@ yahoogroups. com
      > *Subject:* [agile-usability] Re: Question_Agile Process_ UIE Virtual
      > Seminar
      >
      > Mike, we as a team are still trying to understand Agile, and we are
      > working based on how easy it is for us that suites our working model.
      >
      > Agile says that we (designer, dev, testing etc) should be at one place
      > and work on stories that team buys for that iteration
      >
      > But in realistic how can that happen?
      >
      > Say everyone is at one place for 3 weeks and start working on features
      > and as a UX designer I should design the feature and get that
      > validated with users and get a feedback from them .. But if we follow
      > agile then the dev team should be boiling the code before I get the
      > results ...if they do coding and if I get feedback from the users to
      > change some design then should the dev need to recode it ?
      >
      > Please comment on this
      >
      > --- In agile-usability@ yahoogroups. com
      > <mailto:agile-usability%40yahoogroups.com>, "Mike Dwyer" <mdwyer@...>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > WHOA! Look dude, Ron was being very nice. We are not talking about
      > > letting developers in to the initial design meetings. Agile is about
      > > everyone being engaged. You may have been an UI or UX Prima Donna in the
      > > conventional world but in the Agile sphere, you are a member of a
      > team, each
      > > of whom brings their own unique skills that you, in all likelihood
      > lack as
      > > you have chosen to be a UI wizard. Here is the secret message inside the
      > > Agile bottle. Users don't buy software, or UI or databases or any of the
      > > stuff we love to work with. Users buy value and it is our combined
      > job to
      > > work with the users to make sure we are all on the same page.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > So if you are going to be Agile, understand this. Your skills are no
      > more
      > > or less valuable than the most junior newbie tester or coder or BA.
      > It is
      > > the sum impact of the team that delivers.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > If this bothers you or you think that your world is an exception, please
      > > look up the word Scrumbutt or Cragile and start using it to refer to
      > what
      > > you do.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Mike Dwyer
      > > Principal, Agile Coach
      > >
      > > BigVisible Solutions
      > > url: http://www.bigvisib le.com <http://www.bigvisible.com>
      > <http://www.bigvisib le.com/ <http://www.bigvisible.com/>>
      > >
      > > cell: (978) 376-4422
      > >
      > > email: mdwyer@... <mailto:asingh@ ...>
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > From: Srinivas Manda [mailto:laksinu@ ...]
      > > Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 2:18 PM
      > > To: agile-usability@ yahoogroups. com
      > <mailto:agile-usability%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > Subject: [agile-usability] Re: Question_Agile Process_ UIE Virtual
      > Seminar
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Thanks everyone for your input... will make it as a mandit to include
      > > developers in my initial design meetings and will say this will be a
      > > roadblock if not included...
      > >
      > > Thanks Everyone again..
      > >
      > > -laksinu
      > >
      > > --- In agile-usability@ yahoogroups. com
      > <mailto:agile-usability%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > <mailto:agile- usability% 40yahoogroups. com> , Ron Jeffries
      > <ronjeffries@>
      > > wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Hello, Srinivas. On Tuesday, March 10, 2009, at 8:51:00 AM, you
      > > > wrote:
      > > >
      > > > > I agree to what you say , I would love to have Developers /
      > Designers to
      > > > > be in the same team but it is not possible
      > > >
      > > > Why? Are some of them in prison?
      > > >
      > > > > once example as i said earlier ... if developers and designer,
      > BA's are
      > > > > working at the same time and if the screen design is done ... and we
      > > > > test the design with the USERS ... it is not really possible to get
      > > > > feedback from the USERS in 2 weeks or so.. by the time we get the
      > > > > feedback from USERS developers are done with there coding ...
      > and if we
      > > > > have some changes .. developers need to change the code ...
      > > >
      > > > Yes. This is an obstacle. You must remove it.
      > > >
      > > > Ron Jeffries
      > > > www.XProgramming. com
      > > > www.xprogramming. com/blog
      > > > Attend our CSM Plus Course!
      > > > http://hendricksonx p.com/index. php?option= com_eventlist
      > <http://hendricksonxp.com/index.php?option=com_eventlist>
      > > <http://hendricksonx p.com/index. php?option=
      > com_eventlist&Itemid=28
      > <http://hendricksonxp.com/index.php?option=com_eventlist&Itemid=28>>
      > > &Itemid=28
      > > > Thousands of years ago, the first man discovered how to make fire.
      > > > He was probably burned at the stake he had taught his brothers to
      > > > light - Howard Roark (The Fountainhead, Ayn Rand)
      > > >
      > >
      >
      >
    • juliebooth36
      At Con-way, we have the luxury (right now) of being in the same geographic location. But there are only two of us UX types... We work very closely with the BA
      Message 64 of 64 , Oct 19, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        At Con-way, we have the luxury (right now) of being in the same geographic location. But there are only two of us UX types... We work very closely with the BA and the Developers on the teams and have established a process where we participate in stand-up as much as possible and have a weekly revolving door ux session on whatever is testable. I posted a chart and a quick explanation about how we are using Mingle to manage that here:
        http://www.uxsuccess.com/2009/10/ux-and-agile-co-mingling.html



        --- In agile-usability@yahoogroups.com, "Srinivas Manda" <laksinu@...> wrote:
        >
        > Mike, we as a team are still trying to understand Agile, and we are working based on how easy it is for us that suites our working model.
        >
        > Agile says that we (designer, dev, testing etc) should be at one place and work on stories that team buys for that iteration
        >
        > But in realistic how can that happen?
        >
        > Say everyone is at one place for 3 weeks and start working on features and as a UX designer I should design the feature and get that validated with users and get a feedback from them .. But if we follow agile then the dev team should be boiling the code before I get the results ...if they do coding and if I get feedback from the users to change some design then should the dev need to recode it ?
        >
        > Please comment on this
        >
        >
        > --- In agile-usability@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Dwyer" <mdwyer@> wrote:
        > >
        > > WHOA! Look dude, Ron was being very nice. We are not talking about
        > > letting developers in to the initial design meetings. Agile is about
        > > everyone being engaged. You may have been an UI or UX Prima Donna in the
        > > conventional world but in the Agile sphere, you are a member of a team, each
        > > of whom brings their own unique skills that you, in all likelihood lack as
        > > you have chosen to be a UI wizard. Here is the secret message inside the
        > > Agile bottle. Users don't buy software, or UI or databases or any of the
        > > stuff we love to work with. Users buy value and it is our combined job to
        > > work with the users to make sure we are all on the same page.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > So if you are going to be Agile, understand this. Your skills are no more
        > > or less valuable than the most junior newbie tester or coder or BA. It is
        > > the sum impact of the team that delivers.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > If this bothers you or you think that your world is an exception, please
        > > look up the word Scrumbutt or Cragile and start using it to refer to what
        > > you do.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Mike Dwyer
        > > Principal, Agile Coach
        > >
        > > BigVisible Solutions
        > > url: http://www.bigvisible.com <http://www.bigvisible.com/>
        > >
        > > cell: (978) 376-4422
        > >
        > > email: mdwyer@ <mailto:asingh@>
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > From: Srinivas Manda [mailto:laksinu@]
        > > Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 2:18 PM
        > > To: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
        > > Subject: [agile-usability] Re: Question_Agile Process_ UIE Virtual Seminar
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Thanks everyone for your input... will make it as a mandit to include
        > > developers in my initial design meetings and will say this will be a
        > > roadblock if not included...
        > >
        > > Thanks Everyone again..
        > >
        > > -laksinu
        > >
        > > --- In agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
        > > <mailto:agile-usability%40yahoogroups.com> , Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@>
        > > wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Hello, Srinivas. On Tuesday, March 10, 2009, at 8:51:00 AM, you
        > > > wrote:
        > > >
        > > > > I agree to what you say , I would love to have Developers / Designers to
        > > > > be in the same team but it is not possible
        > > >
        > > > Why? Are some of them in prison?
        > > >
        > > > > once example as i said earlier ... if developers and designer, BA's are
        > > > > working at the same time and if the screen design is done ... and we
        > > > > test the design with the USERS ... it is not really possible to get
        > > > > feedback from the USERS in 2 weeks or so.. by the time we get the
        > > > > feedback from USERS developers are done with there coding ... and if we
        > > > > have some changes .. developers need to change the code ...
        > > >
        > > > Yes. This is an obstacle. You must remove it.
        > > >
        > > > Ron Jeffries
        > > > www.XProgramming.com
        > > > www.xprogramming.com/blog
        > > > Attend our CSM Plus Course!
        > > > http://hendricksonxp.com/index.php?option=com_eventlist
        > > <http://hendricksonxp.com/index.php?option=com_eventlist&Itemid=28>
        > > &Itemid=28
        > > > Thousands of years ago, the first man discovered how to make fire.
        > > > He was probably burned at the stake he had taught his brothers to
        > > > light - Howard Roark (The Fountainhead, Ayn Rand)
        > > >
        > >
        >
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