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Re: [agile-usability] Re: One Of My Biggest Agile Problem.

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  • Ron Jeffries
    Hello, Jonathan. On Friday, September 5, 2008, at 8:56:11 PM, you ... People are better at it than cats. ... And it does. Until we turn our back. ... This
    Message 1 of 46 , Sep 5, 2008
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      Hello, Jonathan. On Friday, September 5, 2008, at 8:56:11 PM, you
      wrote:

      > Yes, I've had a cat. I'd say that they are the exception that proves the
      > rule. It's amazing how well they can take your reward / punishment
      > system and turn it against you...

      People are better at it than cats.

      > ...
      > 15,000 words deleted which afaict just restate your view that
      > punishment works.

      And it does. Until we turn our back.

      > Oh, and a final parting shot at Kohn. If extrinsic reward systems are so
      > fallible, why is it that we continue to see those with greater skills
      > being rewarded above others with lesser skills? Employees that perform
      > better are rewarded not from a warm glow within, but higher pay.
      > Professional athletes receive the pay and attention that they do because
      > of superior physical skills.

      This analysis is, I think, backward. If extrinsic reward systems
      worked, people would get better because we paid them more. That is
      not the case. We pay them more if they do better work.

      People who already are doing better work are paid more for at least
      two reasons. First, a feeling of fairness. Second, because we have
      to pay good people more or they will leave us. This is not proof
      that they are primarily externally motivated. It's just proof that
      they are aware of how the game is played.

      Again you have this backward. If compensation is even remotely
      equivalent, people will choose the job they enjoy more.

      > How many people capable of performing at at
      > a high level say "no, you can keep all of that nasty extrinsic piles of
      > cash. I'm intrinsically motivated to be a florist!".

      And people who make a buttload of money in paid positions quite
      often retire early. That speaks directly to intrinsic motivation
      trumping extrinsic.

      As far as I can see, none of what has come before us here supports
      the view that we can punish your way to good people.

      You're free to try, of course.

      Ron Jeffries
      www.XProgramming.com
      Hold on to your dream. --ELO
    • William Pietri
      ... That s a good point. The biggest complaint I hear about this list is that the volume makes it too hard to keep up. Might I suggest that any future
      Message 46 of 46 , Sep 6, 2008
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        aacockburn wrote:
        > I also have enjoyed this rampaging discussion immensely, even if
        > it has precious little to do with agile-usability. It has opened
        > some interesting doors for long-term inquiry in my mind. (Thanks
        > Jonathan for that).
        >
        > Maybe now we can let this group get on with its regularly scheduled
        > program :)
        >

        That's a good point. The biggest complaint I hear about this list is
        that the volume makes it too hard to keep up. Might I suggest that any
        future discussion on this topic go to a more appropriate list? E.g.,
        this one:

        http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/agilecoaches/

        Thanks,

        William
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