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Fwd: [agile-usability] Joy in work [was: interminable]

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  • Pascal Roy
    How is professionalism inherently anti-joy? Personnally, it has the opposite effect on me (am I alone?)... I equate doing things professionnaly with doing
    Message 1 of 3 , Dec 3, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      How is professionalism inherently anti-joy? Personnally, it has the opposite effect on me (am I alone?)... 

      I equate doing things professionnaly with doing things well. Now doing things well doesn't mean doing stuff that isn't usefull, that's just plain stupid. 
      I really don't feel good when I decide to cut corners or am pushed to cut corners (meaing prevented to do things that I know need to be done to do a good job)...

      Equating professionalism to anti-joy really puzzles me.  Can you explain further your thought on this? We're surely not seeing it from the same angle...


      Pascal Roy, ing./P.Eng., PMP
      Vice-Président/Vice President
      Elapse Technologies inc.

      [url]        www.elapsetech.com
      [email]]  pascal.roy@...
      [cell]       514-862-6836


      Début du message réexpédié :

      De : Scott Preece <sepreece@...>
      Date : 1 décembre 2007 13:54:54 HNE
      Objet : Rép : [agile-usability] Joy in work [was: interminable]


      Hi,

      I think it's more about not squashing joy than about encouraging it. Most of us take a lot of pleasure in doing this software thing, and many look for jobs that let them extend that pleasure by advancing efforts that interest them in one way or another. I suspect there may be some really effective leaders who can actually build an additional sense of joy around project accomplishments in their teams, but I think that's stretching it and that much of the potential for joy of work is personal and internal. It's more about enabling and not disabling joy than about creating it.

      Organizations, managers, process designers, and everyone else involved have infinite opportunities to make life miserable, so not killing joy is clearly a good thing to encourage. I'm just not sure how to state this in the form of the Manifesto's values statements. We value Joy over what? Most of the obvious choices, like regimentation, professionalism, achievement, speed, order, are either things that organizations would stoutly deny encouraging (like regimentation) or are things aren't inherently anti-joy (like professionalism) . Does any organization consciously promote misery in its staff? 

      Maybe it's best to assume that valuing joy is part of valuing people?

      regards,
      scott 

      ----- Original Message ----

      From: Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@ XProgramming. com>

      To: agile-usability@ yahoogroups. com

      Sent: Saturday, December 1, 2007 4:31:23 AM

      Subject: Re: [agile-usability] Joy in work [was: interminable]

      Hello, Brian. On Sunday, November 11, 2007, at 2:34:38 PM, you

      wrote:

      > In fact, I'd go further. I claim that an error of the original 

      > manifesto was that it left some values out that, as it happens, 

      > should have been explicit. One of those is that work should be 

      > joyful. Back in the first half of this decade, people on teams used

      > to tell me, "This is the best project I've ever worked on!" I'm 

      > unhappy that what I hear today is more "my job doesn't suck as much

      > as it used to". We've let joy in work slip away in our effort to 

      > appeal to more people.

      This is a tough one, for sure. I have guided my work life in large

      part from a joy focus, or at least by noticing, sometimes later than

      I should, that joy was absent, and moving to a place in the currents

      where more joy comes floating by. I would hope that everyone can

      find joy in what they do, though it seems to me that many never do.

      Despite the truth of the notion, it seems unlikely to "sell" to

      business people. This means that it will be "good business" for

      Agilist business people to downplay this and other humanistic

      values, so as to appeal to "hard-nosed" business people.

      I think that what might work in that regard is to find, describe,

      ultimately "prove" that working in ways that give more joy also

      gives better business results. This means that the "ways" in

      question have to be things to do that are not so much like "follow

      your bliss" and a lot like "make sure your people take the time to

      write unit tests because your product will reach an acceptable level

      of quality faster." This would need to be true, of course, and in

      fact I think it is. Then it needs to turn out that having and taking

      the time to write the tests provides an increment of joy to the

      programmers, which certainly can be the case.

      In any case ... it just seems darned hard to address these things,

      and it really could get in the way of at least some people's

      business focus on selling Agile. I'm very interested and not very

      certain what ought to be done.

      Lead us ...

      Ron Jeffries

      www.XProgramming. com

      I know we always like to say it'll be easier to do it now than it

      will be to do it later. Not likely. I plan to be smarter later than

      I am now, so I think it'll be just as easy later, maybe even easier.

      Why pay now when we can pay later?

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    • Scott Preece
      Umm - I actually said explicitly in my note that professionalism wasn t anti-joy (penultimate sentence of the second paragraph). My point was that if you were
      Message 2 of 3 , Dec 3, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        Umm - I actually said explicitly in my note that professionalism wasn't anti-joy (penultimate sentence of the second paragraph). My point was that if you were writing a statement in the form "We value joy over X", professionalism was one of the things that might occur to you (incorrectly) as an alternative value. I couldn't come up with a reasonable X to fill into the statement.

        regards,
        scott

        ----- Original Message ----
        From: Pascal Roy <pascal.roy@...>
        To: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Monday, December 3, 2007 8:44:10 AM
        Subject: Fwd: [agile-usability] Joy in work [was: interminable]

        How is professionalism inherently anti-joy? Personnally, it has the opposite effect on me (am I alone?)... 


        I equate doing things professionnaly with doing things well. Now doing things well doesn't mean doing stuff that isn't usefull, that's just plain stupid. 
        I really don't feel good when I decide to cut corners or am pushed to cut corners (meaing prevented to do things that I know need to be done to do a good job)...

        Equating professionalism to anti-joy really puzzles me.  Can you explain further your thought on this? We're surely not seeing it from the same angle...


        Pascal Roy, ing./P.Eng., PMP
        Vice-Président/ Vice President
        Elapse Technologies inc.

        [url]        www.elapsetech. com
        [cell]       514-862-6836


        Début du message réexpédié :

        De : Scott Preece <sepreece@yahoo. com>
        Date : 1 décembre 2007 13:54:54 HNE
        Objet : Rép : [agile-usability] Joy in work [was: interminable]


        Hi,

        I think it's more about not squashing joy than about encouraging it. Most of us take a lot of pleasure in doing this software thing, and many look for jobs that let them extend that pleasure by advancing efforts that interest them in one way or another. I suspect there may be some really effective leaders who can actually build an additional sense of joy around project accomplishments in their teams, but I think that's stretching it and that much of the potential for joy of work is personal and internal. It's more about enabling and not disabling joy than about creating it.

        Organizations, managers, process designers, and everyone else involved have infinite opportunities to make life miserable, so not killing joy is clearly a good thing to encourage. I'm just not sure how to state this in the form of the Manifesto's values statements. We value Joy over what? Most of the obvious choices, like regimentation, professionalism, achievement, speed, order, are either things that organizations would stoutly deny encouraging (like regimentation) or are things aren't inherently anti-joy (like professionalism) . Does any organization consciously promote misery in its staff? 

        Maybe it's best to assume that valuing joy is part of valuing people?

        regards,
        scott 

        ----- Original Message ----

        From: Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@ XProgramming. com>

        To: agile-usability@ yahoogroups. com

        Sent: Saturday, December 1, 2007 4:31:23 AM

        Subject: Re: [agile-usability] Joy in work [was: interminable]

        Hello, Brian. On Sunday, November 11, 2007, at 2:34:38 PM, you

        wrote:

        > In fact, I'd go further. I claim that an error of the original 

        > manifesto was that it left some values out that, as it happens, 

        > should have been explicit. One of those is that work should be 

        > joyful. Back in the first half of this decade, people on teams used

        > to tell me, "This is the best project I've ever worked on!" I'm 

        > unhappy that what I hear today is more "my job doesn't suck as much

        > as it used to". We've let joy in work slip away in our effort to 

        > appeal to more people.

        This is a tough one, for sure. I have guided my work life in large

        part from a joy focus, or at least by noticing, sometimes later than

        I should, that joy was absent, and moving to a place in the currents

        where more joy comes floating by. I would hope that everyone can

        find joy in what they do, though it seems to me that many never do.

        Despite the truth of the notion, it seems unlikely to "sell" to

        business people. This means that it will be "good business" for

        Agilist business people to downplay this and other humanistic

        values, so as to appeal to "hard-nosed" business people.

        I think that what might work in that regard is to find, describe,

        ultimately "prove" that working in ways that give more joy also

        gives better business results. This means that the "ways" in

        question have to be things to do that are not so much like "follow

        your bliss" and a lot like "make sure your people take the time to

        write unit tests because your product will reach an acceptable level

        of quality faster." This would need to be true, of course, and in

        fact I think it is. Then it needs to turn out that having and taking

        the time to write the tests provides an increment of joy to the

        programmers, which certainly can be the case.

        In any case ... it just seems darned hard to address these things,

        and it really could get in the way of at least some people's

        business focus on selling Agile. I'm very interested and not very

        certain what ought to be done.

        Lead us ...

        Ron Jeffries

        www.XProgramming. com

        I know we always like to say it'll be easier to do it now than it

        will be to do it later. Not likely. I plan to be smarter later than

        I am now, so I think it'll be just as easy later, maybe even easier.

        Why pay now when we can pay later?

        <!-- #ygrp-mkp{ border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font- family:Arial; margin:14px 0px;padding: 0px 14px;} #ygrp-mkp hr{ border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrp-mkp #hd{ color:#628c2a; font-size: 85%;font- weight:bold; line-height: 122%;margin: 10px 0px;} #ygrp-mkp #ads{ margin-bottom: 10px;} #ygrp-mkp .ad{ padding:0 0;} #ygrp-mkp .ad a{ color:#0000ff; text-decoration: none;} --> <!-- #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc{ font-family: Arial;} #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc #hd{ margin:10px 0px;font-weight: bold;font- size:78%; line-height: 122%;} #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc .ad{ margin-bottom: 10px;padding: 0 0;} --> <!-- #ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px; font-family: arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit; font:100% ;} #ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {font:99% arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {font:115% monospace;} #ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height: 1.22em;} #ygrp-text{ font-family: Georgia; } #ygrp-text p{ margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrp-tpmsgs{
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      • Pascal Roy
        Scott, I apologize, I totally misread your statement. I agree with you 100%... Pascal Roy, ing./P.Eng., PMP Vice-Président/Vice President Elapse Technologies
        Message 3 of 3 , Dec 3, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          Scott,

          I apologize, I totally misread your statement. I agree with you 100%...

          Pascal Roy, ing./P.Eng., PMP
          Vice-Président/Vice President
          Elapse Technologies inc.

          [url]        www.elapsetech.com
          [email]]  pascal.roy@...
          [cell]       514-862-6836


          Le 07-12-03 à 10:29, Scott Preece a écrit :


          Umm - I actually said explicitly in my note that professionalism wasn't anti-joy (penultimate sentence of the second paragraph). My point was that if you were writing a statement in the form "We value joy over X", professionalism was one of the things that might occur to you (incorrectly) as an alternative value. I couldn't come up with a reasonable X to fill into the statement.

          regards,
          scott

          ----- Original Message ----
          From: Pascal Roy <pascal.roy@elapsete ch.com>
          To: agile-usability@ yahoogroups. com
          Sent: Monday, December 3, 2007 8:44:10 AM
          Subject: Fwd: [agile-usability] Joy in work [was: interminable]

          How is professionalism inherently anti-joy? Personnally, it has the opposite effect on me (am I alone?)... 


          I equate doing things professionnaly with doing things well. Now doing things well doesn't mean doing stuff that isn't usefull, that's just plain stupid. 
          I really don't feel good when I decide to cut corners or am pushed to cut corners (meaing prevented to do things that I know need to be done to do a good job)...

          Equating professionalism to anti-joy really puzzles me.  Can you explain further your thought on this? We're surely not seeing it from the same angle...


          Pascal Roy, ing./P.Eng., PMP
          Vice-Président/ Vice President
          Elapse Technologies inc.

          [url]        www.elapsetech. com
          [cell]       514-862-6836


          Début du message réexpédié :

          De : Scott Preece <sepreece@yahoo. com>
          Date : 1 décembre 2007 13:54:54 HNE
          Objet : Rép : [agile-usability] Joy in work [was: interminable]


          Hi,

          I think it's more about not squashing joy than about encouraging it. Most of us take a lot of pleasure in doing this software thing, and many look for jobs that let them extend that pleasure by advancing efforts that interest them in one way or another. I suspect there may be some really effective leaders who can actually build an additional sense of joy around project accomplishments in their teams, but I think that's stretching it and that much of the potential for joy of work is personal and internal. It's more about enabling and not disabling joy than about creating it.

          Organizations, managers, process designers, and everyone else involved have infinite opportunities to make life miserable, so not killing joy is clearly a good thing to encourage. I'm just not sure how to state this in the form of the Manifesto's values statements. We value Joy over what? Most of the obvious choices, like regimentation, professionalism, achievement, speed, order, are either things that organizations would stoutly deny encouraging (like regimentation) or are things aren't inherently anti-joy (like professionalism) . Does any organization consciously promote misery in its staff? 

          Maybe it's best to assume that valuing joy is part of valuing people?

          regards,
          scott 

          ----- Original Message ----

          From: Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@ XProgramming. com>

          To: agile-usability@ yahoogroups. com

          Sent: Saturday, December 1, 2007 4:31:23 AM

          Subject: Re: [agile-usability] Joy in work [was: interminable]

          Hello, Brian. On Sunday, November 11, 2007, at 2:34:38 PM, you

          wrote:

          > In fact, I'd go further. I claim that an error of the original 

          > manifesto was that it left some values out that, as it happens, 

          > should have been explicit. One of those is that work should be 

          > joyful. Back in the first half of this decade, people on teams used

          > to tell me, "This is the best project I've ever worked on!" I'm 

          > unhappy that what I hear today is more "my job doesn't suck as much

          > as it used to". We've let joy in work slip away in our effort to 

          > appeal to more people.

          This is a tough one, for sure. I have guided my work life in large

          part from a joy focus, or at least by noticing, sometimes later than

          I should, that joy was absent, and moving to a place in the currents

          where more joy comes floating by. I would hope that everyone can

          find joy in what they do, though it seems to me that many never do.

          Despite the truth of the notion, it seems unlikely to "sell" to

          business people. This means that it will be "good business" for

          Agilist business people to downplay this and other humanistic

          values, so as to appeal to "hard-nosed" business people.

          I think that what might work in that regard is to find, describe,

          ultimately "prove" that working in ways that give more joy also

          gives better business results. This means that the "ways" in

          question have to be things to do that are not so much like "follow

          your bliss" and a lot like "make sure your people take the time to

          write unit tests because your product will reach an acceptable level

          of quality faster." This would need to be true, of course, and in

          fact I think it is. Then it needs to turn out that having and taking

          the time to write the tests provides an increment of joy to the

          programmers, which certainly can be the case.

          In any case ... it just seems darned hard to address these things,

          and it really could get in the way of at least some people's

          business focus on selling Agile. I'm very interested and not very

          certain what ought to be done.

          Lead us ...

          Ron Jeffries

          www.XProgramming. com

          I know we always like to say it'll be easier to do it now than it

          will be to do it later. Not likely. I plan to be smarter later than

          I am now, so I think it'll be just as easy later, maybe even easier.

          Why pay now when we can pay later?

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