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Re: [agile-usability] On the Communication between Planner, Designer, and Developer

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  • June Kim
    On 5/9/06, Larry Constantine wrote: [snip] ... Are you recommending a developer with each design team ? (I didn t quite get it) ...
    Message 1 of 26 , May 8, 2006
      On 5/9/06, Larry Constantine <lconstantine@...> wrote:
      [snip]
      >A designer with each
      > development team works, so does a developer with each design team.

      Are you recommending "a developer with each design team"? (I didn't
      quite get it)

      > Do use
      > whiteboards to explore and work out designs, but digitize (either with
      > capture bars like Mimio (mimio.com)or with digital camera and
      > WhiteboardPhoto for archiving, rapid distribution.
      >
      > (1) Get the UI architecture thoroughly thought out first. Try to work out a
      > complete navigation map and have wireframe schematics, templates, or
      > abstract prototypes for main page/screen types. Treat all of these as
      > provisional and subject to iterative refinement.

      If we have now UI architecture laid out in our hands, what can we do?
      Can we tell any one party to start to work on their role from the UI
      architecture? Suppose it's the designer. Having the UI architecture,
      what can he/she actually begin to do? (Usually they are trained to
      respond only to very detailed visual guides, like "help"s -- and when
      they see sparse or lo-fi guides instead, they don't start to work on
      it and wait until they think the design is got fixed)

      I think what they need is some sort of funnel-down guides that can
      make them start early and concurrently.

      BTW, I had an experience of designing a web service with innovative
      UIs, for example like Magic Lens and Fish Eye style. Fortunately, we
      worked as a team in a war-room. We were talking about the surface UI
      from the beginning(our focus was more on the specific UIs) and I think
      it didn't have a great positive influence on our developers velocity
      and the code quality.

      >
      > (2) Definitely do a style guide, as Ron suggests, but only in provisional
      > form at the start of the project. Treat it as evolving through iterative
      > refinement just like any other project artifact. You will only learn what
      > the standards should have been as the design evolves and expands.

      Hm... I don't think I got it. Any examples?

      >
      > (3) Regardless of official structure, act *as if* all the participants were
      > part of a common team or team of teams. Consider guerilla tactics that
      > promote that sense, such as encouraging direct communication across
      > divisional and hierarchical lines, inviting broad participation in design
      > reviews, "broadcasting" key milestones or decisions, etc.

      Yes. I wholeheartedly agree with you and I am trying to achieve that
      at this time but still finding it quite challenging. For example, in
      one organization I'm consulting, all the designers in the company are
      in one department -- let's call it Designers Dept. Each one serves
      several projects and teams. On the other hand, developers have their
      own team grouped by the kind of web service they support, and planners
      also have their own team each team serving a few web services. So
      there isn't always a one-to-one mapping between developer teams and
      planner teams, but some developer team and planner team stick together
      for quite a long time(since their main focus has been a few big
      services for a long time) and they collaborate better.

      It's very hard to change their behavior and attitude, when they have
      never experienced any kind of close collaboration.

      >
      > (4) On one project of this sort, we organized a design "S.W.A.T. team" that
      > had ownership of the evolving UI guide, took on the toughest design problems
      > or those with the broadest impact on the results, and served as rapid
      > deployment consultants to other designers and developers. You want your 3-5
      > best, most adaptable, designers on such a team.
      >

      As a separate team and serving other "planner and developer" teams?
      Wouldn't it slow down the whole process? I'm a bit worried.


      Thank you.
    • Sachin Palewar
      I second Ron on that. Regards, Sachin Palewar Palewar Techno Solutions Pocket PC & Mobile Software Development Nagpur, India
      Message 2 of 26 , May 8, 2006
        Message
        I second Ron on that.
         
        Regards,

        Sachin Palewar

        Palewar Techno Solutions
        Pocket PC & Mobile Software Development
        Nagpur, India

        http://www.palewar.com
        -----Original Message-----
        From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
        Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 2:14 AM
        To: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [agile-usability] Group Protocol

        On Monday, May 8, 2006, at 4:34:59 PM, Larry Constantine wrote:

        > What do you all think of using postings on the group to drive traffic to a
        > separate blog as opposed to saying what you have to say here?

        I prefer to read conversation here and am perfectly happy to read
        articles and blogs if they are germane. (I am also inclined to point
        to articles on my own site if they're germane.)

        > What do you think about promoting product sales via postings?

        If someone occasionally posts something salesy, but is generally a
        good contributor, I don't mind it. When someone comes on with
        nothing to offer but sales, I dislike it intensely.

        <smile>
        Contact me via email for agile consulting, and don't forget to read
        my recently unearthed article: We Tried Baseball and It Didn't Work,
        at http://www.xprogramming.com/xpmag/jatBaseball.htm .
        </smile>

        Ron Jeffries
        www.XProgramming.com
        Reason is and ought only to be the slave of the passions.  -- David Hume

      • William Pietri
        ... It depends on how spammy they feel to me. If there s a discussion going and somebody refers to a germane post they made last month along with some other
        Message 3 of 26 , May 9, 2006
          Larry Constantine wrote:
          > What do you all think of using postings on the group to drive traffic to a
          > separate blog as opposed to saying what you have to say here?
          >

          It depends on how spammy they feel to me. If there's a discussion going
          and somebody refers to a germane post they made last month along with
          some other content, I'm happy about that. Announcements of blog posts
          generally leave me cold, especially if they are just a link with teaser
          text.

          > What do you think about promoting product sales via postings?
          >

          I think a couple of lines in SIGs are fine. I'm also very happy with
          people talking about products that they like, even when they get
          evangelical about it. Promoting one's own products strikes me as
          frequently dubious, and always so when it's from somebody who doesn't
          actively participate in the list.


          William
        • Adrian Howard
          On 8 May 2006, at 21:25, Ron Jeffries wrote: [snip] ... [snip] Seconded. Getting the UI abstractions into the code makes things much easier all round. As an
          Message 4 of 26 , May 10, 2006
            On 8 May 2006, at 21:25, Ron Jeffries wrote:
            [snip]
            > Who knows ... STANDARD_BUTTON_WIDTH, BIG_BUTTON_HEIGHT, ALERT_COLOR,
            > ... anything to abstract out the ideas that the designers are
            > developing, so that when they decide that pink letters on an orange
            > background aren't so good after all, we can just tweak a couple
            > values and rebuild.
            [snip]

            Seconded. Getting the UI abstractions into the code makes things much
            easier all round.

            As an aside this is one of the problems with people still working in
            a "throw the UI specs over the wall to the developer" mode. When
            developers are presented with a bunch of user journeys, wireframes,
            etc. without the UX person around to explain /why/ things have been
            done in such-and-such a way you don't notice the abstractions, so
            they don't make it into the code, so they get mucked about when the
            inevitable changes arrive....

            Cheers,

            Adrian
          • Jeff Patton
            June, Sorry I didn t get back to you right away. I m sure you understand how non-trivial the situation you describe is – and
            Message 5 of 26 , May 10, 2006
              <warning - long response>
              June,

              Sorry I didn't get back to you right away. I'm sure you understand
              how non-trivial the situation you describe is – and potentially how
              risky that makes giving advice. But, although I've hesitated, I won't
              let it stop me.

              The pain point or problem I hear you wanting to solve is the large
              amount of time planners spend crafting this communication artefact to
              designers and developers – so I'll talk about that first. Of course
              if you take a hard agile line with all this, you'd do everything you
              could to avoid the written communication. You do that by seating the
              teams close together, by encouraging them to talk over a whiteboard
              whenever possible.

              But, this doesn't solve everything.

              The planner seems to be performing the role of an interaction designer
              [they invent what needs to be built and document the user interaction
              and what I think is the visual design]. Concurrently they perform the
              role of project manager. Sounds tough. Sounds like a lot of
              responsibility for one person. In support of the interaction design
              work, they'll still need to work through somehow what the application
              should look and behave like. They'll need to model with cards, draw
              pictures on whiteboards, build and test paper prototypes. So, they
              still need to build something to contain all their own thoughts – even
              if it isn't powerpoint. That'll take time.

              And, if we encourage the planner to talk more over the whiteboard, and
              over their paper prototypes with the designers and developers, that's
              going to take lots of time.

              So, at the end of the day, we won't give the planners back any more
              time – they'll be spending as much or more, but we may reduce some
              significant risks of miscommunication caused by reliance on paper
              documents. In addition, I think people are ultimately happier when
              they can talk… but does this organization place value on "happy"? Do
              they perceive any pain caused by miscommunication?

              As far as a documentation mechanism goes, right now, I believe
              powerpoint works as well as anything. These days I spend more of my
              life than I want to admit building powerpoint storyboards. Part of
              the reason I prefer it over potentially other tools is that I can
              control the fidelity a little bit. By that I mean I can make very
              realistic UI when I think the situation demands it, or I can paste in
              and manipulate whiteboard photos when they're sufficient – and lots of
              points in between. The point is I control the fidelity. But, it
              doesn't seem like your planners are working with that "fidelity knob".
              Could they be? Would it save them time?

              What does come to mind is that the scale of the operation you describe
              indicates that building a healthy _community of interest_ is in order.
              By that I mean planners need to start regular collaboration with each
              other about how they do their job. They need to share techniques,
              document and share interaction patterns, basically have the
              opportunity to collaborate with each other about how to get better at
              what they do. Does this sort of opportunity for planner collaboration
              exist in the organization? If not, could it?

              Seems like planners could also work in small teams – dividing up work
              and building these prototypes faster. I've seen many organizations
              that have a design team that feeds and collaborates with development.
              Whether they believe they are or not, the BA teams we use at
              ThoughtWorks on projects function as a design team. They collaborate
              and take collective responsibility for the functionality of the
              software, the artefacts they hand to development, and the day to day
              communication with development. Could planners work in 2-3 person
              teams? Would that help them move faster?

              Now, the things that make me twitchy – problems I sense but problems
              you didn't express:

              How does the planner determine what was needed? How does he research
              and understand his users and their needs? How does he validate his
              solution is indeed a good one? Seems his life is so dominated by
              building powerpoints to keep the project running that he may have
              little time to determine if the resulting product is going to be a
              good one. That scares me. Issues there would manifest themselves as
              projects being completed on time, but end users and customers not
              liking what was built. Does that happen?

              I'm twitchy about how little the planners seem to collaborate with
              anyone on what they doe – end users, developers, each other. I'm
              always suspicious of solutions arrived at by individuals working in
              isolation with little context on which to solve their problems.

              What do you mean by designers? [or did you say and I missed it?]
              Are they designing the inside of the system – the architecture-y stuff
              – or the outside if the system – the visual and interaction design?
              My guess is the former – not the latter. If that's the case, based on
              what I'm hearing as constrained collaboration between them and
              developers, I suspect problems come out of that too.

              Finally, the last piece of advice I could give is think about how
              things would look if they were better. What would things look like if
              problems were solved? Then given that mental picture of the solution,
              what's the first tangible thing you can do/change you can make to move
              towards it?

              In the future do planners simply spend less time doing powerpoint work
              because they have a cool prototyping tool? This brings me back to one
              of the first things I asked – what really is the problem here? Is
              this really about saving the labour costs/time spent by the planners?
              No offence to the planners – but who cares? If you saved them 25% of
              their time, would that be significant to the company you work for?
              Might the company them be tempted to fire 25% of the planners? The
              net result being that their life really isn't any better. Look deeper
              to what the problem really is here. Does it take to long to build
              product? Is the product quality low? Is it too expense to build
              products vs. your competition – do you need to reduce costs overall?
              Where is the pain coming from?

              Hope that give you some more things to think about – and potentially
              some more questions to ask.

              Thanks for posting this here to make the discussion public.

              -Jeff

              --- In agile-usability@yahoogroups.com, "June Kim" <juneaftn@...> wrote:
              >
              > Following is email I sent to Jeff but I suppose it didn't make it to
              > him. I think it would be better to post it to a larger audience and
              > ask for help.
              >
              > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
              > From: June Kim
              > Date: Apr 19, 2006 5:08 PM
              > Subject: On the Communication between Planner, Designer, and Developer
              > [snip]
              >
              > BTW, I just want to ask some comments from you. I would greatly
              > appreciate your opinion or any reference you could afford me.
              >
              > As I told you I am coaching a few major web portal companies in Korea.
              > They have half a thousand developers and a few hundreds of designers
              > and planners. Oh, the job title, "planner". I think you are
              > unfamiliar with that job title. In Korea, we call those people who
              invent
              > and plan the web service(product manager?) as planners. They invent
              > the concepts and ideas and then draw storyboards and sometimes
              > organize the team and arrange the schedule, being the mediator between
              > designers and developers.
              ...
            • Jeff Patton
              ... Ditto! There s been lots of talk about how you can t refactor UI. By that developers mean that refactoring UI code is hard. Well I suppose it is - but
              Message 6 of 26 , May 10, 2006
                --- In agile-usability@yahoogroups.com, Adrian Howard <adrianh@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > On 8 May 2006, at 21:25, Ron Jeffries wrote:
                > [snip]
                > > Who knows ... STANDARD_BUTTON_WIDTH, BIG_BUTTON_HEIGHT, ALERT_COLOR,
                > > ... anything to abstract out the ideas that the designers are
                > > developing, so that when they decide that pink letters on an orange
                > > background aren't so good after all, we can just tweak a couple
                > > values and rebuild.
                > [snip]
                >
                > Seconded. Getting the UI abstractions into the code makes things much
                > easier all round.

                Ditto!

                There's been lots of talk about how you can't refactor UI. By that
                developers mean that refactoring UI code is hard. Well I suppose it
                is - but it's extra hard to refactor code when the concepts in the UI
                aren't reflected in the code. I've found that when the UI concepts
                arrive in the code as first class objects, changing details about
                those concepts is easier. By that I mean changing/refactoring the UI.

                Throwing anything over a wall injects risk into a project. UI to
                developers is just another wall.

                [Live from London]
                -Jeff
              • Jared M. Spool
                ... Dare I make the Patterns war cry again? Jared Jared M. Spool, Founding Principal, User Interface Engineering 510 Turnpike Street, Suite 102, North
                Message 7 of 26 , May 10, 2006
                  >On 8 May 2006, at 21:25, Ron Jeffries wrote:
                  >[snip]
                  > > Who knows ... STANDARD_BUTTON_WIDTH, BIG_BUTTON_HEIGHT, ALERT_COLOR,
                  > > ... anything to abstract out the ideas that the designers are
                  > > developing, so that when they decide that pink letters on an orange
                  > > background aren't so good after all, we can just tweak a couple
                  > > values and rebuild.
                  >[snip]

                  At 08:03 AM 5/10/2006, Adrian Howard wrote:

                  >Seconded. Getting the UI abstractions into the code makes things much
                  >easier all round.
                  >
                  >As an aside this is one of the problems with people still working in
                  >a "throw the UI specs over the wall to the developer" mode. When
                  >developers are presented with a bunch of user journeys, wireframes,
                  >etc. without the UX person around to explain /why/ things have been
                  >done in such-and-such a way you don't notice the abstractions, so
                  >they don't make it into the code, so they get mucked about when the
                  >inevitable changes arrive....

                  Dare I make the "Patterns" war cry again?

                  Jared


                  Jared M. Spool, Founding Principal, User Interface Engineering
                  510 Turnpike Street, Suite 102, North Andover, MA 01845
                  978 327-5561 jspool@... http://www.uie.com
                  Blog: http://www.uie.com/brainsparks
                • Adrian Howard
                  On 10 May 2006, at 14:05, Jeff Patton wrote: [snip] ... [snip] I m pleasantly surprised how many XP coding practices fall nicely into place when you take the
                  Message 8 of 26 , May 10, 2006
                    On 10 May 2006, at 14:05, Jeff Patton wrote:
                    [snip]
                    > There's been lots of talk about how you can't refactor UI. By that
                    > developers mean that refactoring UI code is hard. Well I suppose it
                    > is - but it's extra hard to refactor code when the concepts in the UI
                    > aren't reflected in the code. I've found that when the UI concepts
                    > arrive in the code as first class objects, changing details about
                    > those concepts is easier. By that I mean changing/refactoring the UI.
                    [snip]

                    I'm pleasantly surprised how many XP "coding" practices fall nicely
                    into place when you take the UI into account. I rambled about this a
                    little last year (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/agile-usability/
                    message/1373).

                    Adrian
                  • Adrian Howard
                    On 10 May 2006, at 14:35, Jared M. Spool wrote: [snip] ... [snip] ... I m thinking more of application-specific UI abstractions - and they don t seem to fit
                    Message 9 of 26 , May 10, 2006
                      On 10 May 2006, at 14:35, Jared M. Spool wrote:
                      [snip]
                      > At 08:03 AM 5/10/2006, Adrian Howard wrote:
                      [snip]
                      >> As an aside this is one of the problems with people still working in
                      >> a "throw the UI specs over the wall to the developer" mode. When
                      >> developers are presented with a bunch of user journeys, wireframes,
                      >> etc. without the UX person around to explain /why/ things have been
                      >> done in such-and-such a way you don't notice the abstractions, so
                      >> they don't make it into the code, so they get mucked about when the
                      >> inevitable changes arrive....
                      >
                      > Dare I make the "Patterns" war cry again?

                      I'm thinking more of application-specific UI abstractions - and they
                      don't seem to fit under the pattern banner to me.... am I wrong?

                      Adrian
                    • Jared M. Spool
                      ... I think UI patterns could work in an application-specific manner. They take the abstractions you are talking about and add other descriptive components,
                      Message 10 of 26 , May 10, 2006
                        At 09:59 AM 5/10/2006, Adrian Howard wrote:

                        > > At 08:03 AM 5/10/2006, Adrian Howard wrote:
                        >[snip]
                        > >> As an aside this is one of the problems with people still working in
                        > >> a "throw the UI specs over the wall to the developer" mode. When
                        > >> developers are presented with a bunch of user journeys, wireframes,
                        > >> etc. without the UX person around to explain /why/ things have been
                        > >> done in such-and-such a way you don't notice the abstractions, so
                        > >> they don't make it into the code, so they get mucked about when the
                        > >> inevitable changes arrive....
                        > >
                        >On 10 May 2006, at 14:35, Jared M. Spool wrote:
                        > > Dare I make the "Patterns" war cry again?
                        >
                        >I'm thinking more of application-specific UI abstractions - and they
                        >don't seem to fit under the pattern banner to me.... am I wrong?

                        I think UI patterns could work in an application-specific manner. They take
                        the abstractions you are talking about and add other descriptive
                        components, such as the context of use, history, and other required patterns.

                        I'm thinking by making your patterns align with the UI abstractions, you
                        get more mileage for not much more effort.

                        Jared


                        Jared M. Spool, Founding Principal, User Interface Engineering
                        510 Turnpike Street, Suite 102, North Andover, MA 01845
                        978 327-5561 jspool@... http://www.uie.com
                        Blog: http://www.uie.com/brainsparks
                      • Adrian Howard
                        ... [snip] ... Oh yes, I quite agree. It s more a question of nomenclature. Once you add a bunch of application specific detail to them is it really right to
                        Message 11 of 26 , May 11, 2006
                          On 10 May 2006, at 17:16, Jared M. Spool wrote:

                          > At 09:59 AM 5/10/2006, Adrian Howard wrote:
                          [snip]
                          >> I'm thinking more of application-specific UI abstractions - and they
                          >> don't seem to fit under the pattern banner to me.... am I wrong?
                          >
                          > I think UI patterns could work in an application-specific manner.
                          > They take
                          > the abstractions you are talking about and add other descriptive
                          > components, such as the context of use, history, and other required
                          > patterns.
                          >
                          > I'm thinking by making your patterns align with the UI
                          > abstractions, you
                          > get more mileage for not much more effort.

                          Oh yes, I quite agree. It's more a question of nomenclature. Once you
                          add a bunch of application specific detail to them is it really right
                          to carry on calling them patterns? Haven't they then lost the generic
                          nature that the name implies?

                          Adrian
                        • June Kim
                          ... That s OK. I really appreciate your long and detailed response. ... They initially devise and propose the core idea of the service. They do strategic
                          Message 12 of 26 , May 11, 2006
                            2006/5/10, Jeff Patton <jpatton@...>:
                            > <warning - long response>
                            > June,
                            >
                            > Sorry I didn't get back to you right away. I'm sure you understand

                            That's OK. I really appreciate your long and detailed response.

                            > how non-trivial the situation you describe is – and potentially how
                            > risky that makes giving advice. But, although I've hesitated, I won't
                            > let it stop me.
                            >
                            > The pain point or problem I hear you wanting to solve is the large
                            > amount of time planners spend crafting this communication artefact to
                            > designers and developers – so I'll talk about that first. Of course
                            > if you take a hard agile line with all this, you'd do everything you
                            > could to avoid the written communication. You do that by seating the
                            > teams close together, by encouraging them to talk over a whiteboard
                            > whenever possible.
                            >
                            > But, this doesn't solve everything.
                            >
                            > The planner seems to be performing the role of an interaction designer
                            > [they invent what needs to be built and document the user interaction
                            > and what I think is the visual design]. Concurrently they perform the
                            > role of project manager. Sounds tough. Sounds like a lot of

                            They initially devise and propose the core idea of the service. They
                            do strategic planning for the web service also; thinking about the
                            positions of the web service in the company's whole web services
                            portfolio, SWOT analysis, benchmarking other rival services, sometimes
                            coming up with marketing plan and etc. And usually there is a process
                            that the planner should do the presentation in front of executives to
                            persuade them into allowing the service.

                            > responsibility for one person. In support of the interaction design
                            > work, they'll still need to work through somehow what the application
                            > should look and behave like. They'll need to model with cards, draw
                            > pictures on whiteboards, build and test paper prototypes. So, they
                            > still need to build something to contain all their own thoughts – even
                            > if it isn't powerpoint. That'll take time.
                            >
                            > And, if we encourage the planner to talk more over the whiteboard, and
                            > over their paper prototypes with the designers and developers, that's
                            > going to take lots of time.
                            >
                            > So, at the end of the day, we won't give the planners back any more
                            > time – they'll be spending as much or more, but we may reduce some
                            > significant risks of miscommunication caused by reliance on paper
                            > documents. In addition, I think people are ultimately happier when
                            > they can talk… but does this organization place value on "happy"? Do
                            > they perceive any pain caused by miscommunication?
                            >
                            > As far as a documentation mechanism goes, right now, I believe
                            > powerpoint works as well as anything. These days I spend more of my
                            > life than I want to admit building powerpoint storyboards. Part of
                            > the reason I prefer it over potentially other tools is that I can
                            > control the fidelity a little bit. By that I mean I can make very
                            > realistic UI when I think the situation demands it, or I can paste in
                            > and manipulate whiteboard photos when they're sufficient – and lots of
                            > points in between. The point is I control the fidelity. But, it
                            > doesn't seem like your planners are working with that "fidelity knob".
                            > Could they be? Would it save them time?

                            Enlightening! I never thought I could lower the fidelity in the
                            power-point. Of course, we could even use varying levels of fidelity
                            in a same power-point file, depending on the significance and needs.

                            I did some instruction on paper prototyping to a few teams(developer
                            teams and planner teams), and they were very interested in the
                            technique and Guindon's idea of opportunistic design(top-down and
                            bottom-up).

                            I totally agree that fidelity knob is very important. Thanks for
                            pointing this out.

                            >
                            > What does come to mind is that the scale of the operation you describe
                            > indicates that building a healthy _community of interest_ is in order.
                            > By that I mean planners need to start regular collaboration with each
                            > other about how they do their job. They need to share techniques,
                            > document and share interaction patterns, basically have the
                            > opportunity to collaborate with each other about how to get better at
                            > what they do. Does this sort of opportunity for planner collaboration
                            > exist in the organization? If not, could it?

                            I am trying to nudge in. With a few teams, I came to the point where
                            the planner team and developer team became willing to collaborate
                            (like agile planning) but still the designer dept is the problem.
                            There is a political issue, and a mentality issue.


                            >
                            > Seems like planners could also work in small teams – dividing up work
                            > and building these prototypes faster. I've seen many organizations
                            > that have a design team that feeds and collaborates with development.
                            > Whether they believe they are or not, the BA teams we use at

                            What are the BA teams?

                            > ThoughtWorks on projects function as a design team. They collaborate
                            > and take collective responsibility for the functionality of the
                            > software, the artefacts they hand to development, and the day to day
                            > communication with development. Could planners work in 2-3 person
                            > teams? Would that help them move faster?

                            They could in some fortunate teams, and it would make them move
                            faster. But there are planner teams that take responsibility for
                            almost 100 services(24 x 7) with 10 people, each one serving 10
                            services. They make a new event for their services, plan renewal ,
                            resolve customer dissatisfaction and etc. For such a team, that kind
                            of move might not be feasible, well, in the shorter term

                            >
                            > Now, the things that make me twitchy – problems I sense but problems
                            > you didn't express:
                            >
                            > How does the planner determine what was needed? How does he research
                            > and understand his users and their needs? How does he validate his
                            > solution is indeed a good one? Seems his life is so dominated by
                            > building powerpoints to keep the project running that he may have
                            > little time to determine if the resulting product is going to be a
                            > good one. That scares me. Issues there would manifest themselves as
                            > projects being completed on time, but end users and customers not
                            > liking what was built. Does that happen?
                            >

                            I would say yes. I think they do mostly speculative researches.
                            Conceptual design?

                            > I'm twitchy about how little the planners seem to collaborate with
                            > anyone on what they doe – end users, developers, each other. I'm
                            > always suspicious of solutions arrived at by individuals working in
                            > isolation with little context on which to solve their problems.
                            >
                            > What do you mean by designers? [or did you say and I missed it?]

                            They are graphic designers. Planners plan the service, developers
                            implement the "blue-print" and designers do all the artistic parts,
                            like drawing jpg images, choosing specific colors for buttons, and
                            even coding html. They have not much room to consider usability,
                            information architecture, and all the luxury, but they are always
                            concerned about aesthetics, I guess.

                            Oh, the mentality problem I mentioned above, is that they are worried
                            if their desiging skill would lag or even deteriorate when they join
                            to become a whole team with developers and planners. They are some
                            designers who belong to a task force (with developers and planners in
                            the same room) but their pride is very low and they consider they are
                            there because their design skill is not professional enough. They want
                            to be with their kinds. They want to form a professional group.

                            > Are they designing the inside of the system – the architecture-y stuff
                            > – or the outside if the system – the visual and interaction design?

                            Outside.

                            > My guess is the former – not the latter. If that's the case, based on
                            > what I'm hearing as constrained collaboration between them and
                            > developers, I suspect problems come out of that too.
                            >
                            > Finally, the last piece of advice I could give is think about how
                            > things would look if they were better. What would things look like if
                            > problems were solved? Then given that mental picture of the solution,
                            > what's the first tangible thing you can do/change you can make to move
                            > towards it?
                            >
                            > In the future do planners simply spend less time doing powerpoint work
                            > because they have a cool prototyping tool? This brings me back to one
                            > of the first things I asked – what really is the problem here? Is
                            > this really about saving the labour costs/time spent by the planners?
                            > No offence to the planners – but who cares? If you saved them 25% of
                            > their time, would that be significant to the company you work for?
                            > Might the company them be tempted to fire 25% of the planners? The
                            > net result being that their life really isn't any better. Look deeper
                            > to what the problem really is here. Does it take to long to build
                            > product? Is the product quality low? Is it too expense to build
                            > products vs. your competition – do you need to reduce costs overall?
                            > Where is the pain coming from?
                            >


                            These are good questions.

                            I started coaching a new team with developers and planners (haven't
                            yet figured out to have the designer participate, and they are
                            thinking about working without a designer as far as they can get --
                            they think the political problem is too difficult to solve) and their
                            morale is very high. The team is working very agile using agile
                            usability techniques.

                            The problem is other teams.

                            > Hope that give you some more things to think about – and potentially
                            > some more questions to ask.

                            Thank you. I will keep in my mind those questions and report the result later.

                            >
                            > Thanks for posting this here to make the discussion public.
                            >

                            Your welcome. Thank you again for your response.

                            June

                            > -Jeff
                            >
                            > --- In agile-usability@yahoogroups.com, "June Kim" <juneaftn@...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Following is email I sent to Jeff but I suppose it didn't make it to
                            > > him. I think it would be better to post it to a larger audience and
                            > > ask for help.
                            > >
                            > > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
                            > > From: June Kim
                            > > Date: Apr 19, 2006 5:08 PM
                            > > Subject: On the Communication between Planner, Designer, and Developer
                            > > [snip]
                            > >
                            > > BTW, I just want to ask some comments from you. I would greatly
                            > > appreciate your opinion or any reference you could afford me.
                            > >
                            > > As I told you I am coaching a few major web portal companies in Korea.
                            > > They have half a thousand developers and a few hundreds of designers
                            > > and planners. Oh, the job title, "planner". I think you are
                            > > unfamiliar with that job title. In Korea, we call those people who
                            > invent
                            > > and plan the web service(product manager?) as planners. They invent
                            > > the concepts and ideas and then draw storyboards and sometimes
                            > > organize the team and arrange the schedule, being the mediator between
                            > > designers and developers.
                            > ...
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • Jared M. Spool
                            ... I guess I was thinking about large applications, where design elements (such as date input or user login) may repeat themselves multiple times in a variety
                            Message 13 of 26 , May 11, 2006
                              At 06:41 AM 5/11/2006, Adrian Howard wrote:
                              >Oh yes, I quite agree. It's more a question of nomenclature. Once you
                              >add a bunch of application specific detail to them is it really right
                              >to carry on calling them patterns? Haven't they then lost the generic
                              >nature that the name implies?

                              I guess I was thinking about large applications, where design elements
                              (such as date input or user login) may repeat themselves multiple times in
                              a variety of contexts. I would think patterns would be ideal in this scenario.

                              I agree that for small applications, it's probably overkill. But for a
                              suite of small applications, it could be useful.

                              Jared


                              Jared M. Spool, Founding Principal, User Interface Engineering
                              510 Turnpike Street, Suite 102, North Andover, MA 01845
                              978 327-5561 jspool@... http://www.uie.com
                              Blog: http://www.uie.com/brainsparks
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