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RE: [agile-usability] QWERTY, mouse, and novel input

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  • Josh Seiden
    ... [snip] ... There are certainly some frustrations associated with the group. One of them is the monthly discussion of the relevance of UX. Another is the
    Message 1 of 20 , Dec 7, 2005
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      > This group has been a bit of a disappointment. I
      > think there is lots of
      > work to be done. Usability practitioners will
      > benefit from better
      > integration with agile teams building better
      > software quickly. But teams
      > will adopt Agile with or without usability
      > practitioners or their ideas
      > on board.

      [snip]

      > But maybe, with all of the good feedback agile teams
      > get from working
      > closely with a customer, usability is inherent, and
      > IAs are largely
      > irrelevant for most projects?
      >
      > Thoughts?

      There are certainly some frustrations associated with
      the group. One of them is the monthly discussion of
      the relevance of UX. Another is the implication that
      UX practitioners should be grateful for a seat at a
      table with folks that don't see value in their work.

      For me, comments like are deeply disrespectful, and
      illustrate a major hurdle to closer collaboration--the
      basic lack of shared experience and trust among the
      players.

      That lack of shared experience will always be a
      hindrence to this discussion group. (Discussion lists
      don't create the shared experience we need. Project
      work does.) It would be interesting, Jeff, to take a
      poll to assess how many folks on this list have
      actually collaborated on an Agile/UI project.

      Personally, I'm here to learn about working in an
      Agile context, but have never worked in one. I wonder
      how many Agilists on this list have ever worked with a
      dedicated UX professional.

      JS
    • shel kimen
      It would be interesting, Jeff, to take a poll to assess how many folks on this list have actually collaborated on an Agile/UI project. I am an IA/Interaction
      Message 2 of 20 , Dec 7, 2005
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        It would be interesting, Jeff, to take a poll to assess how many folks on this list have
        actually collaborated on an Agile/UI project.

         

        I am an IA/Interaction Designer/Internet Strategist/Etc…. Since about 1995. Many different hats many different projects, 90% web with some .Net, mobile, and custom devices thrown in the mix.

         

        I’ve had one Agile dev experience, which was only part Agile b/c the client hadn’t finalized the dev environment while we (as consultants) went ahead defining use cases and general scenarios, trying to break it all into ‘stories’ anticipating an agile environment. I had extreme difficulty in creating space to establish a UX strategy, and it was tough to break out of my training in long exploratory concept phases. I noticed that on another project, another team (of consultants) with the same client were working very well to integrate usability, ux, and agile – they created what seemed to be smart and quick feedback loops that seemed to work. I never got to complete the project on our side – which is probably just as well – but I was enjoying ‘thinking differently’ . It was refreshing, rational, and a nice challenge.

         

        I was fascinated by Agile as a concept/philosophy and joined this list to try to understand the points of intersection – particularly relating to strategy and feedback. To Josh’s point – that has not happened and probably would not without a project.

         

        Now we are all very busy, and I certainly am not quite ready to jump up and lead a project – definitely not before 2006. But it would be interesting to pick some pro-bono something interesting to try and tackle, so those of us who want to learn more about Agile or more about UX in a team environment can have that opportunity.

         

        ./s

         

         

      • Desilets, Alain
        There are certainly some frustrations associated with the group. One of them is the monthly discussion of the relevance of UX. Another is the implication that
        Message 3 of 20 , Dec 7, 2005
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          There are certainly some frustrations associated with
          the group. One of them is the monthly discussion of
          the relevance of UX. Another is the implication that
          UX practitioners should be grateful for a seat at a
          table with folks that don't see value in their work.

          For me, comments like are deeply disrespectful, and
          illustrate a major hurdle to closer collaboration--the
          basic lack of shared experience and trust among the
          players.

          -- Alain:
          Interesting...

          I have not read anything on this list that to my eyes, questioned the
          relevance of either U* or Agile.

          I HAVE read a lot of discussion about which parts of these two
          approaches work well together, and how they can be modified to take
          advantage of each other.

          As a U* or Agile practicionner, you should not come to this list and
          expect that "what you know to be true" will be accepted without
          question. In fact, you should be prepared to revise "what you know is
          true", as a result of what you find here.

          As far as I can tell, the positions held by both U* and Agilists on this
          list are far more nuanced than the views of their respective
          constituancies. In other words, the Agilists on this list are more
          user-centered than most Agilists out there. And most U* people on this
          list are more Agile than most U* professionals out there.
          ----

          That lack of shared experience will always be a
          hindrence to this discussion group. (Discussion lists
          don't create the shared experience we need. Project
          work does.) It would be interesting, Jeff, to take a
          poll to assess how many folks on this list have
          actually collaborated on an Agile/UI project.

          Personally, I'm here to learn about working in an
          Agile context, but have never worked in one. I wonder
          how many Agilists on this list have ever worked with a dedicated UX
          professional.

          -- Alain:
          I for one work with one ollegue who is an HCI person all the time, and I
          really appreciate his contributions to my projects.
          ----
        • Ron Vutpakdi
          ... We have before, just not recently. You might want to check the archives. ... A number of people are integrating agile and usability successfully. One
          Message 4 of 20 , Dec 7, 2005
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            --- In agile-usability@yahoogroups.com, "Dymond, Robin"
            <robin.dymond@c...> wrote:
            >
            > How come no one in this group is discussing ideas on integrating
            > usability and agile?
            >
            We have before, just not recently. You might want to check the archives.

            > How are you integrating agile
            > methods with usability ideas on a daily basis? Are you? Or do you have
            > waterfall processes, in which the IAs do usability as part of the
            > "Design" process, with mockups from photoshop, that may or may not
            > become actual software?

            A number of people are integrating agile and usability successfully.
            One method is to basically be one iteration or otherwise just slightly
            ahead of the developers while trying to keep an eye out for a general
            idea of what might be coming down the road.

            On the usability and design side, a lot of practices involve scaling
            activities appropriately.

            On the development side, one practice seems to involve learning how to
            engage and consult usability rather than assuming that they don't matter.

            >
            > This group has been a bit of a disappointment. I think there is lots of
            > work to be done. Usability practitioners will benefit from better
            > integration with agile teams building better software quickly. But teams
            > will adopt Agile with or without usability practitioners or their ideas
            > on board.

            So it's just the usability practioners and designers who have to
            adapt, and not the whole team?

            >
            > But maybe, with all of the good feedback agile teams get from working
            > closely with a customer, usability is inherent, and IAs are largely
            > irrelevant for most projects?
            >

            Design still does matter as does usability. So does everyone learning
            how to work together as a team and draw from the best of everyone's
            skills so that the whole team is more than the sum of the individual
            members.

            I don't normally see teams where customers, through their feedback
            effectively design the internal or backend architecture. Why should
            the interface be any different? Yes, the feedback and input matter,
            are highly important, and should be used to influence the design.
            But, that doesn't mean that you want to give the customer the task of
            designing the interface for you.

            Ron
          • Ron Vutpakdi
            ... driving cars) ... Just as an aside: the doctors and psychologists that I know who use speech to text for dictation do so because it s faster for them to
            Message 5 of 20 , Dec 7, 2005
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              --- In agile-usability@yahoogroups.com, "Desilets, Alain"
              <alain.desilets@n...> wrote:
              > Today's speech interfaces CAN be very useful, but only in limited
              context like:
              >
              > - people who can't type (ex: RSI, paraplegics)
              > - people who WON'T type (ex: "REAL lawyers/doctors don't type!")
              > - people who are in hands and/or eyes busy situation (ex: people
              driving cars)
              >

              Just as an aside: the doctors and psychologists that I know who use
              speech to text for dictation do so because it's faster for them to
              dictate reports rather than typing (not that they can't type). They
              can do so while walking around or even just sitting at their desk, but
              speaking is faster than typing.

              In their cases, with a special dictionary and training, the
              recognition is generally better than 95% since the vocabulary used is
              considerably more limited than full speech.

              Many doctors and psychologists still dictate reports/evaluations to a
              phone service which then uses a person to transcribe the reports.

              Ron
            • Ron Vutpakdi
              ... I have (as far as usability and design goes). But, then again, I m also on another list where there are occasional flashes of usability is irrelevant
              Message 6 of 20 , Dec 7, 2005
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                --- In agile-usability@yahoogroups.com, "Desilets, Alain"
                <alain.desilets@n...> wrote:
                > -- Alain:
                > Interesting...
                >
                > I have not read anything on this list that to my eyes, questioned the
                > relevance of either U* or Agile.

                I have (as far as usability and design goes). But, then again, I'm
                also on another list where there are occasional flashes of "usability
                is irrelevant" from the interaction designers on the list. In both
                cases, I see it as a mixture of infantile "us vs. them," "I know
                everything so I don't need you," "this sandbox is not big enough for
                the two of us," or "you don't get to play in my sandbox" attitudes.

                It's harder to get to the point of working together well if one starts
                with that attitude. Respect and valuing what everyone can bring to
                the table is what teams need to use everyone's strengths.

                I have worked on non-agile and agilish projects. And, I like to think
                of myself as being a fairly agile designer / usability guy since I
                adapt what I do to meet what the teams want/need/can handle. But,
                things work best when the teams adapt as well.

                Ron
              • Desilets, Alain
                ... From: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com [mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ron Vutpakdi Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 2:33 PM I have
                Message 7 of 20 , Dec 7, 2005
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                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
                  [mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ron Vutpakdi
                  Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 2:33 PM
                  I have (as far as usability and design goes). But, then again, I'm also
                  on another list where there are occasional flashes of "usability is
                  irrelevant" from the interaction designers on the list.

                  -- Alain:
                  For sure, you get the occasional posting of this sort on all lists
                  (including this one).

                  My point is that this list does not exhibit more of those types of
                  messages than your average mailing list.

                  Therefore, if you come to this list and feel that your discipline (be it
                  U* or Agile development) is being dismissed, you are probably not coming
                  to it with an open mind.
                  ----
                • Desilets, Alain
                  Therefore, if you come to this list and feel that your discipline (be it U* or Agile development) is being dismissed, you are probably not coming to it with an
                  Message 8 of 20 , Dec 7, 2005
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                    Therefore, if you come to this list and feel that your discipline (be it
                    U* or Agile development) is being dismissed, you are probably not coming
                    to it with an open mind.

                    -- Alain:
                    BTW: in the above I didn't mean you, Ron Vutpakdi (I know you have an
                    open mind ;-)). I meant the generic you, as in "if someone comes to this
                    list and feels etc..."
                    -----
                  • Ron Vutpakdi
                    ... Darn, just before I was going fire off an angry reply. ;-) Seriously, I think that part of this discussion highlights what I ve thought for many years
                    Message 9 of 20 , Dec 7, 2005
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                      --- In agile-usability@yahoogroups.com, "Desilets, Alain"
                      <alain.desilets@n...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Therefore, if you come to this list and feel that your discipline (be it
                      > U* or Agile development) is being dismissed, you are probably not coming
                      > to it with an open mind.
                      >
                      > -- Alain:
                      > BTW: in the above I didn't mean you, Ron Vutpakdi (I know you have an
                      > open mind ;-)). I meant the generic you, as in "if someone comes to this
                      > list and feels etc..."
                      > -----
                      >
                      Darn, just before I was going fire off an angry reply. ;-)

                      Seriously, I think that part of this discussion highlights what I've
                      thought for many years (starting back when I was primarily a
                      developer): the hardest part of software development (in a team) isn't
                      the technology, the architecture, or the interaction design: it's the
                      people aspect of working in a team and working with those outside of
                      the team proper.

                      Seems to me that cross cultural communication and understanding is one
                      of the biggest challenges where the "cross cultural" could be the
                      result of different disciplines, cultures, languages, locations,
                      and/or previous experiences. I'm currently slamming my head against
                      this particular brick wall. Most of the developers that I'm working
                      with are in Scotland and have never worked with an interaction
                      designer before. So I've got the discipline, location, culture, and
                      previous experience divide to bridge (some would also argue that
                      Scottish English counts as a different language than American English
                      :-) ).

                      More face to face time and experience working together would really help.

                      On a more relevant note, how many people here have worked on an agile
                      development team split across 6+ time zones? Any suggestions? We
                      really need the equivalent of a shared team room where we can put up
                      task/story cards and such, and SharePoint (uggh) just isn't cutting it.

                      I thought about trying to do a virtual one in Canvas, but that limits
                      who can effectively update the "wall".

                      Ron
                    • Jade Ohlhauser
                      And here I thought you had stopped following this list, Robin :) * I think a challenge to this discussion is that the knowledge a lot of people desire is about
                      Message 10 of 20 , Dec 7, 2005
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                        And here I thought you had stopped following this list, Robin :) *
                         
                        I think a challenge to this discussion is that the knowledge a lot of people desire is about the details. I personally believe it's not the big ideas that make the most difference on real world projects, it's the hundreds of little things.
                         
                        Let me put it another way. A while ago I was at the (good) CANUX conference in Banff (http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/creativecanux/). There was various presentations on various subjects, but the ones that really stood out for me were the case studies. I saw their analysis studies, their interesting life-size cardboard personas covered in multi-color post-its, etc. To me those "facts" were more interesting and more useful than the academic arguments.
                         
                        Unfortunately I don't have any suggestions for this list re: that.
                         
                        Anyway, Ron said:
                         
                        "... the hardest part of software development (in a team) isn't
                        the technology, the architecture, or the interaction design: it's the
                        people aspect of working in a team and working with those outside of
                        the team proper."
                        I agree, one topic I'd enjoy going into deeper is documentation. At our shop documentation and mockups/prototypes are a key part of the relationship between usability and development and the agileness of both. We started down this road with the wiki discussion. Anyone else?
                         
                        Jade Ohlhauser
                        Product Manager
                        RPM Software                                 
                        www.rpmsoftware.com 403-265-6727 x704
                         
                         
                         
                         
                        * Disclaimer: we worked together for a year and a half, but it felt much longer (in a good way)
                         
                         


                        From: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com [mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dymond, Robin
                        Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 8:36 AM
                        To: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: RE: [agile-usability] QWERTY, mouse, and novel input

                        Well, you won't find me trading my mouse for a touch screen and a chop
                        stick any time soon!

                        I agree with Larry, our systems are built within a context, the idea of
                        building an enterprise app with something other than a keyboard and
                        mouse is quixotic.

                        How come no one in this group is discussing ideas on integrating
                        usability and agile?

                        Agile is rapidly gaining adoption across the software industry, for
                        example Microsoft has recently become a strong proponent of Scrum and is
                        promoting it with their development tools. How are you integrating agile
                        methods with usability ideas on a daily basis? Are you? Or do you have
                        waterfall processes, in which the IAs do usability as part of the
                        "Design" process, with mockups from photoshop, that may or may not
                        become actual software?

                        This group has been a bit of a disappointment. I think there is lots of
                        work to be done. Usability practitioners will benefit from better
                        integration with agile teams building better software quickly. But teams
                        will adopt Agile with or without usability practitioners or their ideas
                        on board.

                        But maybe, with all of the good feedback agile teams get from working
                        closely with a customer, usability is inherent, and IAs are largely
                        irrelevant for most projects?

                        Thoughts?

                        Robin Dymond

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
                        [mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joshua Seiden
                        Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 7:45 PM
                        To: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: RE: [agile-usability] QWERTY, mouse, and novel input


                        Larry wrote:

                        > Interestingly, both the keyboard and mouse have been roundly
                        > criticized, yet have proved surprisingly robust as general purpose HMI

                        > devices. Research has found that nothing else works quite as well for
                        > so many purposes under so many conditions, although other mechanisms
                        > may be better in highly specific circumstances.

                        And:

                        > Bill Buxton distinguishes imitating physical reality in
                        > GUI design from using externally learned skills and
                        > associations within the framework of effective interaction
                        > idioms.


                        Josh replies: Buxton also said (at your last forUSE conference)
                        something
                        like this: as long as we are interacting with the computer using a
                        mouse, we
                        are interacting with the world using the equivalent of the point of a
                        single
                        chopstick. That gives us the manipulative power of a fruitfly!

                        To be fair, this was in the context of a discussion of the limits of
                        general
                        purpose devices and general purpose computing.

                        JS






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                      • Desilets, Alain
                        Seriously, I think that part of this discussion highlights what I ve thought for many years (starting back when I was primarily a developer): the hardest part
                        Message 11 of 20 , Dec 7, 2005
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                          Seriously, I think that part of this discussion highlights what I've
                          thought for many years (starting back when I was primarily a
                          developer): the hardest part of software development (in a team) isn't
                          the technology, the architecture, or the interaction design: it's the
                          people aspect of working in a team and working with those outside of the
                          team proper.

                          Seems to me that cross cultural communication and understanding is one
                          of the biggest challenges where the "cross cultural" could be the result
                          of different disciplines, cultures, languages, locations, and/or
                          previous experiences. I'm currently slamming my head against this
                          particular brick wall. Most of the developers that I'm working with are
                          in Scotland and have never worked with an interaction designer before.
                          So I've got the discipline, location, culture, and previous experience
                          divide to bridge (some would also argue that Scottish English counts as
                          a different language than American English
                          :-) ).

                          More face to face time and experience working together would really
                          help.

                          -- Alain:
                          Righto. To quote from the Agile manifesto:

                          "Individuals and interactions over processes and tools"

                          This is the only way to bridge the various culture gaps involved in a
                          software project.
                          ----









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                        • Larry Constantine
                          ... we ... single ... On many occasions while sharing dimsum I have been impressed by what can be accomplished with chopsticks. ;-) --Larry Constantine, IDSA
                          Message 12 of 20 , Dec 8, 2005
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                            > Josh replies: Buxton also said (at your last forUSE conference) something
                            > like this: as long as we are interacting with the computer using a mouse,
                            we
                            > are interacting with the world using the equivalent of the point of a
                            single
                            > chopstick. That gives us the manipulative power of a fruitfly!

                            On many occasions while sharing dimsum I have been impressed by what can be
                            accomplished with chopsticks. ;-)

                            --Larry Constantine, IDSA
                          • Larry Constantine
                            ... Another interesting example. Audio noting to the chart, whether supported by speech-to-text software or human transcription is a must-have function in
                            Message 13 of 20 , Dec 8, 2005
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                              Ron Vutpakdi wrote:

                              > Just as an aside: the doctors and psychologists that I know who use
                              > speech to text for dictation do so because it's faster for them to
                              > dictate reports rather than typing (not that they can't type). They
                              > can do so while walking around or even just sitting at their desk, but
                              > speaking is faster than typing.
                              >
                              > In their cases, with a special dictionary and training, the
                              > recognition is generally better than 95% since the vocabulary used is
                              > considerably more limited than full speech.
                              >
                              > Many doctors and psychologists still dictate reports/evaluations to a
                              > phone service which then uses a person to transcribe the reports.

                              Another interesting example. Audio noting to the chart, whether supported by
                              speech-to-text software or human transcription is a must-have function in
                              modern medical informatics, but that does not mean it is truly efficient or
                              sufficiently reliable to meet real medical practice objectives. Because of
                              the high potential for errors (95% accuracy sounds good until you turn it
                              around: 1 out of 20 words is wrong), transcribed audio does not become part
                              of the legal patient record until the dictating clinician reviews and signs
                              off on the transcription. Reviewing for errors and correcting is a somewhat
                              tedious process and itself quite error prone, particularly as clinicians
                              typically do so at a later time when the context is no longer fresh in their
                              heads. Transcribed audio, even after review, correction, and sign-off, has a
                              significantly higher error rate than directly entered notes and orders.

                              I don't know if the analysis has been done in medical settings, but in other
                              contexts, when all activities in the process are taken into
                              account(including slowed speech, repetition and correction on the fly,
                              review and editing), the effective total throughput is almost invariably
                              less than even slow direct keyboard entry. We can process up to about 400
                              wpm when heard and rapid speech clocks at nearly 200 wpm, although 120-160
                              is considered tops for persuasive communication. The best commercial
                              "trained" speech-to-text systems are typically only good to about 100 wpm.
                              But, users typically find they can spend as much time correcting errors as
                              dictating (some report as much as 2-3 times). So effective throughput drops
                              to well within the range of typical typing (30-60 wpm).

                              That said, it can still be more efficient use of the clinician's time if
                              notes and orders can be dictated while moving between patients or while
                              riding the subway. (Although HIPAA compliance may become an issue in the
                              latter case.)

                              I think audio notes and orders could actually diminish in use over time, at
                              least in the short run, because the new generation of clinicians has grown
                              up with computers. My personal physician does all his own notes and orders
                              directly into the medical system, typing away at 100+ words/minute. When I
                              commented, he mentioned growing up with computers and video games, then
                              added that being a musician also helped!

                              --Larry Constantine, IDSA
                            • Desilets, Alain
                              I don t know if the analysis has been done in medical settings, but in other contexts, when all activities in the process are taken into account(including
                              Message 14 of 20 , Dec 8, 2005
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                                I don't know if the analysis has been done in medical settings, but in
                                other contexts, when all activities in the process are taken into
                                account(including slowed speech, repetition and correction on the fly,
                                review and editing), the effective total throughput is almost invariably
                                less than even slow direct keyboard entry. We can process up to about
                                400 wpm when heard and rapid speech clocks at nearly 200 wpm, although
                                120-160 is considered tops for persuasive communication. The best
                                commercial "trained" speech-to-text systems are typically only good to
                                about 100 wpm. But, users typically find they can spend as much time
                                correcting errors as dictating (some report as much as 2-3 times). So
                                effective throughput drops to well within the range of typical typing
                                (30-60 wpm).

                                -- Alain:
                                In one of the projects I worked on (computer-assisted transcription of
                                the debates at the House of Commons of Canada), we did some WOZ
                                experiments with professional transcribers and found that we broke even
                                when the speech recognition system had an accuracy of around 85%. In
                                other words, when accuracy was above 85%, it took less time to correct
                                errors in the transcription than to transcribe from scratch for the raw
                                audio.
                                ----
                              • elise_urbanek
                                ... From a linguistics point of view, FYI, they re considered different varieties of the same language. :)
                                Message 15 of 20 , Dec 25, 2005
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                                  --- In agile-usability@yahoogroups.com, "Ron Vutpakdi" <vutpakdi@a...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Darn, just before I was going fire off an angry reply. ;-)
                                  >
                                  > Seriously, I think that part of this discussion highlights what I've
                                  > thought for many years (starting back when I was primarily a
                                  > developer): the hardest part of software development (in a team) isn't
                                  > the technology, the architecture, or the interaction design: it's the
                                  > people aspect of working in a team and working with those outside of
                                  > the team proper.
                                  >
                                  > Seems to me that cross cultural communication and understanding is one
                                  > of the biggest challenges where the "cross cultural" could be the
                                  > result of different disciplines, cultures, languages, locations,
                                  > and/or previous experiences. I'm currently slamming my head against
                                  > this particular brick wall. Most of the developers that I'm working
                                  > with are in Scotland and have never worked with an interaction
                                  > designer before. So I've got the discipline, location, culture, and
                                  > previous experience divide to bridge (some would also argue that
                                  > Scottish English counts as a different language than American English
                                  > :-) ).


                                  From a linguistics point of view, FYI, they're considered different
                                  'varieties' of the same language. :)
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