Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

RE: [agile-usability] QWERTY, mouse, and novel input

Expand Messages
  • Dymond, Robin
    Well, you won t find me trading my mouse for a touch screen and a chop stick any time soon! I agree with Larry, our systems are built within a context, the
    Message 1 of 20 , Dec 7, 2005
      Well, you won't find me trading my mouse for a touch screen and a chop
      stick any time soon!

      I agree with Larry, our systems are built within a context, the idea of
      building an enterprise app with something other than a keyboard and
      mouse is quixotic.

      How come no one in this group is discussing ideas on integrating
      usability and agile?

      Agile is rapidly gaining adoption across the software industry, for
      example Microsoft has recently become a strong proponent of Scrum and is
      promoting it with their development tools. How are you integrating agile
      methods with usability ideas on a daily basis? Are you? Or do you have
      waterfall processes, in which the IAs do usability as part of the
      "Design" process, with mockups from photoshop, that may or may not
      become actual software?

      This group has been a bit of a disappointment. I think there is lots of
      work to be done. Usability practitioners will benefit from better
      integration with agile teams building better software quickly. But teams
      will adopt Agile with or without usability practitioners or their ideas
      on board.

      But maybe, with all of the good feedback agile teams get from working
      closely with a customer, usability is inherent, and IAs are largely
      irrelevant for most projects?

      Thoughts?

      Robin Dymond

      -----Original Message-----
      From: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
      [mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joshua Seiden
      Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 7:45 PM
      To: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [agile-usability] QWERTY, mouse, and novel input


      Larry wrote:

      > Interestingly, both the keyboard and mouse have been roundly
      > criticized, yet have proved surprisingly robust as general purpose HMI

      > devices. Research has found that nothing else works quite as well for
      > so many purposes under so many conditions, although other mechanisms
      > may be better in highly specific circumstances.

      And:

      > Bill Buxton distinguishes imitating physical reality in
      > GUI design from using externally learned skills and
      > associations within the framework of effective interaction
      > idioms.


      Josh replies: Buxton also said (at your last forUSE conference)
      something
      like this: as long as we are interacting with the computer using a
      mouse, we
      are interacting with the world using the equivalent of the point of a
      single
      chopstick. That gives us the manipulative power of a fruitfly!

      To be fair, this was in the context of a discussion of the limits of
      general
      purpose devices and general purpose computing.

      JS






      Yahoo! Groups Links







      The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and/or proprietary
      to Capital One and/or its affiliates. The information transmitted herewith
      is intended only for use by the individual or entity to which it is
      addressed. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient,
      you are hereby notified that any review, retransmission, dissemination,
      distribution, copying or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance
      upon this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this
      communication in error, please contact the sender and delete the material
      from your computer.
    • Josh Seiden
      ... [snip] ... There are certainly some frustrations associated with the group. One of them is the monthly discussion of the relevance of UX. Another is the
      Message 2 of 20 , Dec 7, 2005
        > This group has been a bit of a disappointment. I
        > think there is lots of
        > work to be done. Usability practitioners will
        > benefit from better
        > integration with agile teams building better
        > software quickly. But teams
        > will adopt Agile with or without usability
        > practitioners or their ideas
        > on board.

        [snip]

        > But maybe, with all of the good feedback agile teams
        > get from working
        > closely with a customer, usability is inherent, and
        > IAs are largely
        > irrelevant for most projects?
        >
        > Thoughts?

        There are certainly some frustrations associated with
        the group. One of them is the monthly discussion of
        the relevance of UX. Another is the implication that
        UX practitioners should be grateful for a seat at a
        table with folks that don't see value in their work.

        For me, comments like are deeply disrespectful, and
        illustrate a major hurdle to closer collaboration--the
        basic lack of shared experience and trust among the
        players.

        That lack of shared experience will always be a
        hindrence to this discussion group. (Discussion lists
        don't create the shared experience we need. Project
        work does.) It would be interesting, Jeff, to take a
        poll to assess how many folks on this list have
        actually collaborated on an Agile/UI project.

        Personally, I'm here to learn about working in an
        Agile context, but have never worked in one. I wonder
        how many Agilists on this list have ever worked with a
        dedicated UX professional.

        JS
      • shel kimen
        It would be interesting, Jeff, to take a poll to assess how many folks on this list have actually collaborated on an Agile/UI project. I am an IA/Interaction
        Message 3 of 20 , Dec 7, 2005

          It would be interesting, Jeff, to take a poll to assess how many folks on this list have
          actually collaborated on an Agile/UI project.

           

          I am an IA/Interaction Designer/Internet Strategist/Etc…. Since about 1995. Many different hats many different projects, 90% web with some .Net, mobile, and custom devices thrown in the mix.

           

          I’ve had one Agile dev experience, which was only part Agile b/c the client hadn’t finalized the dev environment while we (as consultants) went ahead defining use cases and general scenarios, trying to break it all into ‘stories’ anticipating an agile environment. I had extreme difficulty in creating space to establish a UX strategy, and it was tough to break out of my training in long exploratory concept phases. I noticed that on another project, another team (of consultants) with the same client were working very well to integrate usability, ux, and agile – they created what seemed to be smart and quick feedback loops that seemed to work. I never got to complete the project on our side – which is probably just as well – but I was enjoying ‘thinking differently’ . It was refreshing, rational, and a nice challenge.

           

          I was fascinated by Agile as a concept/philosophy and joined this list to try to understand the points of intersection – particularly relating to strategy and feedback. To Josh’s point – that has not happened and probably would not without a project.

           

          Now we are all very busy, and I certainly am not quite ready to jump up and lead a project – definitely not before 2006. But it would be interesting to pick some pro-bono something interesting to try and tackle, so those of us who want to learn more about Agile or more about UX in a team environment can have that opportunity.

           

          ./s

           

           

        • Desilets, Alain
          There are certainly some frustrations associated with the group. One of them is the monthly discussion of the relevance of UX. Another is the implication that
          Message 4 of 20 , Dec 7, 2005
            There are certainly some frustrations associated with
            the group. One of them is the monthly discussion of
            the relevance of UX. Another is the implication that
            UX practitioners should be grateful for a seat at a
            table with folks that don't see value in their work.

            For me, comments like are deeply disrespectful, and
            illustrate a major hurdle to closer collaboration--the
            basic lack of shared experience and trust among the
            players.

            -- Alain:
            Interesting...

            I have not read anything on this list that to my eyes, questioned the
            relevance of either U* or Agile.

            I HAVE read a lot of discussion about which parts of these two
            approaches work well together, and how they can be modified to take
            advantage of each other.

            As a U* or Agile practicionner, you should not come to this list and
            expect that "what you know to be true" will be accepted without
            question. In fact, you should be prepared to revise "what you know is
            true", as a result of what you find here.

            As far as I can tell, the positions held by both U* and Agilists on this
            list are far more nuanced than the views of their respective
            constituancies. In other words, the Agilists on this list are more
            user-centered than most Agilists out there. And most U* people on this
            list are more Agile than most U* professionals out there.
            ----

            That lack of shared experience will always be a
            hindrence to this discussion group. (Discussion lists
            don't create the shared experience we need. Project
            work does.) It would be interesting, Jeff, to take a
            poll to assess how many folks on this list have
            actually collaborated on an Agile/UI project.

            Personally, I'm here to learn about working in an
            Agile context, but have never worked in one. I wonder
            how many Agilists on this list have ever worked with a dedicated UX
            professional.

            -- Alain:
            I for one work with one ollegue who is an HCI person all the time, and I
            really appreciate his contributions to my projects.
            ----
          • Ron Vutpakdi
            ... We have before, just not recently. You might want to check the archives. ... A number of people are integrating agile and usability successfully. One
            Message 5 of 20 , Dec 7, 2005
              --- In agile-usability@yahoogroups.com, "Dymond, Robin"
              <robin.dymond@c...> wrote:
              >
              > How come no one in this group is discussing ideas on integrating
              > usability and agile?
              >
              We have before, just not recently. You might want to check the archives.

              > How are you integrating agile
              > methods with usability ideas on a daily basis? Are you? Or do you have
              > waterfall processes, in which the IAs do usability as part of the
              > "Design" process, with mockups from photoshop, that may or may not
              > become actual software?

              A number of people are integrating agile and usability successfully.
              One method is to basically be one iteration or otherwise just slightly
              ahead of the developers while trying to keep an eye out for a general
              idea of what might be coming down the road.

              On the usability and design side, a lot of practices involve scaling
              activities appropriately.

              On the development side, one practice seems to involve learning how to
              engage and consult usability rather than assuming that they don't matter.

              >
              > This group has been a bit of a disappointment. I think there is lots of
              > work to be done. Usability practitioners will benefit from better
              > integration with agile teams building better software quickly. But teams
              > will adopt Agile with or without usability practitioners or their ideas
              > on board.

              So it's just the usability practioners and designers who have to
              adapt, and not the whole team?

              >
              > But maybe, with all of the good feedback agile teams get from working
              > closely with a customer, usability is inherent, and IAs are largely
              > irrelevant for most projects?
              >

              Design still does matter as does usability. So does everyone learning
              how to work together as a team and draw from the best of everyone's
              skills so that the whole team is more than the sum of the individual
              members.

              I don't normally see teams where customers, through their feedback
              effectively design the internal or backend architecture. Why should
              the interface be any different? Yes, the feedback and input matter,
              are highly important, and should be used to influence the design.
              But, that doesn't mean that you want to give the customer the task of
              designing the interface for you.

              Ron
            • Ron Vutpakdi
              ... driving cars) ... Just as an aside: the doctors and psychologists that I know who use speech to text for dictation do so because it s faster for them to
              Message 6 of 20 , Dec 7, 2005
                --- In agile-usability@yahoogroups.com, "Desilets, Alain"
                <alain.desilets@n...> wrote:
                > Today's speech interfaces CAN be very useful, but only in limited
                context like:
                >
                > - people who can't type (ex: RSI, paraplegics)
                > - people who WON'T type (ex: "REAL lawyers/doctors don't type!")
                > - people who are in hands and/or eyes busy situation (ex: people
                driving cars)
                >

                Just as an aside: the doctors and psychologists that I know who use
                speech to text for dictation do so because it's faster for them to
                dictate reports rather than typing (not that they can't type). They
                can do so while walking around or even just sitting at their desk, but
                speaking is faster than typing.

                In their cases, with a special dictionary and training, the
                recognition is generally better than 95% since the vocabulary used is
                considerably more limited than full speech.

                Many doctors and psychologists still dictate reports/evaluations to a
                phone service which then uses a person to transcribe the reports.

                Ron
              • Ron Vutpakdi
                ... I have (as far as usability and design goes). But, then again, I m also on another list where there are occasional flashes of usability is irrelevant
                Message 7 of 20 , Dec 7, 2005
                  --- In agile-usability@yahoogroups.com, "Desilets, Alain"
                  <alain.desilets@n...> wrote:
                  > -- Alain:
                  > Interesting...
                  >
                  > I have not read anything on this list that to my eyes, questioned the
                  > relevance of either U* or Agile.

                  I have (as far as usability and design goes). But, then again, I'm
                  also on another list where there are occasional flashes of "usability
                  is irrelevant" from the interaction designers on the list. In both
                  cases, I see it as a mixture of infantile "us vs. them," "I know
                  everything so I don't need you," "this sandbox is not big enough for
                  the two of us," or "you don't get to play in my sandbox" attitudes.

                  It's harder to get to the point of working together well if one starts
                  with that attitude. Respect and valuing what everyone can bring to
                  the table is what teams need to use everyone's strengths.

                  I have worked on non-agile and agilish projects. And, I like to think
                  of myself as being a fairly agile designer / usability guy since I
                  adapt what I do to meet what the teams want/need/can handle. But,
                  things work best when the teams adapt as well.

                  Ron
                • Desilets, Alain
                  ... From: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com [mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ron Vutpakdi Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 2:33 PM I have
                  Message 8 of 20 , Dec 7, 2005
                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
                    [mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ron Vutpakdi
                    Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 2:33 PM
                    I have (as far as usability and design goes). But, then again, I'm also
                    on another list where there are occasional flashes of "usability is
                    irrelevant" from the interaction designers on the list.

                    -- Alain:
                    For sure, you get the occasional posting of this sort on all lists
                    (including this one).

                    My point is that this list does not exhibit more of those types of
                    messages than your average mailing list.

                    Therefore, if you come to this list and feel that your discipline (be it
                    U* or Agile development) is being dismissed, you are probably not coming
                    to it with an open mind.
                    ----
                  • Desilets, Alain
                    Therefore, if you come to this list and feel that your discipline (be it U* or Agile development) is being dismissed, you are probably not coming to it with an
                    Message 9 of 20 , Dec 7, 2005
                      Therefore, if you come to this list and feel that your discipline (be it
                      U* or Agile development) is being dismissed, you are probably not coming
                      to it with an open mind.

                      -- Alain:
                      BTW: in the above I didn't mean you, Ron Vutpakdi (I know you have an
                      open mind ;-)). I meant the generic you, as in "if someone comes to this
                      list and feels etc..."
                      -----
                    • Ron Vutpakdi
                      ... Darn, just before I was going fire off an angry reply. ;-) Seriously, I think that part of this discussion highlights what I ve thought for many years
                      Message 10 of 20 , Dec 7, 2005
                        --- In agile-usability@yahoogroups.com, "Desilets, Alain"
                        <alain.desilets@n...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Therefore, if you come to this list and feel that your discipline (be it
                        > U* or Agile development) is being dismissed, you are probably not coming
                        > to it with an open mind.
                        >
                        > -- Alain:
                        > BTW: in the above I didn't mean you, Ron Vutpakdi (I know you have an
                        > open mind ;-)). I meant the generic you, as in "if someone comes to this
                        > list and feels etc..."
                        > -----
                        >
                        Darn, just before I was going fire off an angry reply. ;-)

                        Seriously, I think that part of this discussion highlights what I've
                        thought for many years (starting back when I was primarily a
                        developer): the hardest part of software development (in a team) isn't
                        the technology, the architecture, or the interaction design: it's the
                        people aspect of working in a team and working with those outside of
                        the team proper.

                        Seems to me that cross cultural communication and understanding is one
                        of the biggest challenges where the "cross cultural" could be the
                        result of different disciplines, cultures, languages, locations,
                        and/or previous experiences. I'm currently slamming my head against
                        this particular brick wall. Most of the developers that I'm working
                        with are in Scotland and have never worked with an interaction
                        designer before. So I've got the discipline, location, culture, and
                        previous experience divide to bridge (some would also argue that
                        Scottish English counts as a different language than American English
                        :-) ).

                        More face to face time and experience working together would really help.

                        On a more relevant note, how many people here have worked on an agile
                        development team split across 6+ time zones? Any suggestions? We
                        really need the equivalent of a shared team room where we can put up
                        task/story cards and such, and SharePoint (uggh) just isn't cutting it.

                        I thought about trying to do a virtual one in Canvas, but that limits
                        who can effectively update the "wall".

                        Ron
                      • Jade Ohlhauser
                        And here I thought you had stopped following this list, Robin :) * I think a challenge to this discussion is that the knowledge a lot of people desire is about
                        Message 11 of 20 , Dec 7, 2005
                          And here I thought you had stopped following this list, Robin :) *
                           
                          I think a challenge to this discussion is that the knowledge a lot of people desire is about the details. I personally believe it's not the big ideas that make the most difference on real world projects, it's the hundreds of little things.
                           
                          Let me put it another way. A while ago I was at the (good) CANUX conference in Banff (http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/creativecanux/). There was various presentations on various subjects, but the ones that really stood out for me were the case studies. I saw their analysis studies, their interesting life-size cardboard personas covered in multi-color post-its, etc. To me those "facts" were more interesting and more useful than the academic arguments.
                           
                          Unfortunately I don't have any suggestions for this list re: that.
                           
                          Anyway, Ron said:
                           
                          "... the hardest part of software development (in a team) isn't
                          the technology, the architecture, or the interaction design: it's the
                          people aspect of working in a team and working with those outside of
                          the team proper."
                          I agree, one topic I'd enjoy going into deeper is documentation. At our shop documentation and mockups/prototypes are a key part of the relationship between usability and development and the agileness of both. We started down this road with the wiki discussion. Anyone else?
                           
                          Jade Ohlhauser
                          Product Manager
                          RPM Software                                 
                          www.rpmsoftware.com 403-265-6727 x704
                           
                           
                           
                           
                          * Disclaimer: we worked together for a year and a half, but it felt much longer (in a good way)
                           
                           


                          From: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com [mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dymond, Robin
                          Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 8:36 AM
                          To: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: RE: [agile-usability] QWERTY, mouse, and novel input

                          Well, you won't find me trading my mouse for a touch screen and a chop
                          stick any time soon!

                          I agree with Larry, our systems are built within a context, the idea of
                          building an enterprise app with something other than a keyboard and
                          mouse is quixotic.

                          How come no one in this group is discussing ideas on integrating
                          usability and agile?

                          Agile is rapidly gaining adoption across the software industry, for
                          example Microsoft has recently become a strong proponent of Scrum and is
                          promoting it with their development tools. How are you integrating agile
                          methods with usability ideas on a daily basis? Are you? Or do you have
                          waterfall processes, in which the IAs do usability as part of the
                          "Design" process, with mockups from photoshop, that may or may not
                          become actual software?

                          This group has been a bit of a disappointment. I think there is lots of
                          work to be done. Usability practitioners will benefit from better
                          integration with agile teams building better software quickly. But teams
                          will adopt Agile with or without usability practitioners or their ideas
                          on board.

                          But maybe, with all of the good feedback agile teams get from working
                          closely with a customer, usability is inherent, and IAs are largely
                          irrelevant for most projects?

                          Thoughts?

                          Robin Dymond

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
                          [mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joshua Seiden
                          Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 7:45 PM
                          To: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: RE: [agile-usability] QWERTY, mouse, and novel input


                          Larry wrote:

                          > Interestingly, both the keyboard and mouse have been roundly
                          > criticized, yet have proved surprisingly robust as general purpose HMI

                          > devices. Research has found that nothing else works quite as well for
                          > so many purposes under so many conditions, although other mechanisms
                          > may be better in highly specific circumstances.

                          And:

                          > Bill Buxton distinguishes imitating physical reality in
                          > GUI design from using externally learned skills and
                          > associations within the framework of effective interaction
                          > idioms.


                          Josh replies: Buxton also said (at your last forUSE conference)
                          something
                          like this: as long as we are interacting with the computer using a
                          mouse, we
                          are interacting with the world using the equivalent of the point of a
                          single
                          chopstick. That gives us the manipulative power of a fruitfly!

                          To be fair, this was in the context of a discussion of the limits of
                          general
                          purpose devices and general purpose computing.

                          JS






                          Yahoo! Groups Links







                          The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and/or proprietary
                          to Capital One and/or its affiliates. The information transmitted herewith
                          is intended only for use by the individual or entity to which it is
                          addressed.  If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient,
                          you are hereby notified that any review, retransmission, dissemination,
                          distribution, copying or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance
                          upon this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this
                          communication in error, please contact the sender and delete the material
                          from your computer.

                        • Desilets, Alain
                          Seriously, I think that part of this discussion highlights what I ve thought for many years (starting back when I was primarily a developer): the hardest part
                          Message 12 of 20 , Dec 7, 2005
                            Seriously, I think that part of this discussion highlights what I've
                            thought for many years (starting back when I was primarily a
                            developer): the hardest part of software development (in a team) isn't
                            the technology, the architecture, or the interaction design: it's the
                            people aspect of working in a team and working with those outside of the
                            team proper.

                            Seems to me that cross cultural communication and understanding is one
                            of the biggest challenges where the "cross cultural" could be the result
                            of different disciplines, cultures, languages, locations, and/or
                            previous experiences. I'm currently slamming my head against this
                            particular brick wall. Most of the developers that I'm working with are
                            in Scotland and have never worked with an interaction designer before.
                            So I've got the discipline, location, culture, and previous experience
                            divide to bridge (some would also argue that Scottish English counts as
                            a different language than American English
                            :-) ).

                            More face to face time and experience working together would really
                            help.

                            -- Alain:
                            Righto. To quote from the Agile manifesto:

                            "Individuals and interactions over processes and tools"

                            This is the only way to bridge the various culture gaps involved in a
                            software project.
                            ----









                            Yahoo! Groups Links
                          • Larry Constantine
                            ... we ... single ... On many occasions while sharing dimsum I have been impressed by what can be accomplished with chopsticks. ;-) --Larry Constantine, IDSA
                            Message 13 of 20 , Dec 8, 2005
                              > Josh replies: Buxton also said (at your last forUSE conference) something
                              > like this: as long as we are interacting with the computer using a mouse,
                              we
                              > are interacting with the world using the equivalent of the point of a
                              single
                              > chopstick. That gives us the manipulative power of a fruitfly!

                              On many occasions while sharing dimsum I have been impressed by what can be
                              accomplished with chopsticks. ;-)

                              --Larry Constantine, IDSA
                            • Larry Constantine
                              ... Another interesting example. Audio noting to the chart, whether supported by speech-to-text software or human transcription is a must-have function in
                              Message 14 of 20 , Dec 8, 2005
                                Ron Vutpakdi wrote:

                                > Just as an aside: the doctors and psychologists that I know who use
                                > speech to text for dictation do so because it's faster for them to
                                > dictate reports rather than typing (not that they can't type). They
                                > can do so while walking around or even just sitting at their desk, but
                                > speaking is faster than typing.
                                >
                                > In their cases, with a special dictionary and training, the
                                > recognition is generally better than 95% since the vocabulary used is
                                > considerably more limited than full speech.
                                >
                                > Many doctors and psychologists still dictate reports/evaluations to a
                                > phone service which then uses a person to transcribe the reports.

                                Another interesting example. Audio noting to the chart, whether supported by
                                speech-to-text software or human transcription is a must-have function in
                                modern medical informatics, but that does not mean it is truly efficient or
                                sufficiently reliable to meet real medical practice objectives. Because of
                                the high potential for errors (95% accuracy sounds good until you turn it
                                around: 1 out of 20 words is wrong), transcribed audio does not become part
                                of the legal patient record until the dictating clinician reviews and signs
                                off on the transcription. Reviewing for errors and correcting is a somewhat
                                tedious process and itself quite error prone, particularly as clinicians
                                typically do so at a later time when the context is no longer fresh in their
                                heads. Transcribed audio, even after review, correction, and sign-off, has a
                                significantly higher error rate than directly entered notes and orders.

                                I don't know if the analysis has been done in medical settings, but in other
                                contexts, when all activities in the process are taken into
                                account(including slowed speech, repetition and correction on the fly,
                                review and editing), the effective total throughput is almost invariably
                                less than even slow direct keyboard entry. We can process up to about 400
                                wpm when heard and rapid speech clocks at nearly 200 wpm, although 120-160
                                is considered tops for persuasive communication. The best commercial
                                "trained" speech-to-text systems are typically only good to about 100 wpm.
                                But, users typically find they can spend as much time correcting errors as
                                dictating (some report as much as 2-3 times). So effective throughput drops
                                to well within the range of typical typing (30-60 wpm).

                                That said, it can still be more efficient use of the clinician's time if
                                notes and orders can be dictated while moving between patients or while
                                riding the subway. (Although HIPAA compliance may become an issue in the
                                latter case.)

                                I think audio notes and orders could actually diminish in use over time, at
                                least in the short run, because the new generation of clinicians has grown
                                up with computers. My personal physician does all his own notes and orders
                                directly into the medical system, typing away at 100+ words/minute. When I
                                commented, he mentioned growing up with computers and video games, then
                                added that being a musician also helped!

                                --Larry Constantine, IDSA
                              • Desilets, Alain
                                I don t know if the analysis has been done in medical settings, but in other contexts, when all activities in the process are taken into account(including
                                Message 15 of 20 , Dec 8, 2005
                                  I don't know if the analysis has been done in medical settings, but in
                                  other contexts, when all activities in the process are taken into
                                  account(including slowed speech, repetition and correction on the fly,
                                  review and editing), the effective total throughput is almost invariably
                                  less than even slow direct keyboard entry. We can process up to about
                                  400 wpm when heard and rapid speech clocks at nearly 200 wpm, although
                                  120-160 is considered tops for persuasive communication. The best
                                  commercial "trained" speech-to-text systems are typically only good to
                                  about 100 wpm. But, users typically find they can spend as much time
                                  correcting errors as dictating (some report as much as 2-3 times). So
                                  effective throughput drops to well within the range of typical typing
                                  (30-60 wpm).

                                  -- Alain:
                                  In one of the projects I worked on (computer-assisted transcription of
                                  the debates at the House of Commons of Canada), we did some WOZ
                                  experiments with professional transcribers and found that we broke even
                                  when the speech recognition system had an accuracy of around 85%. In
                                  other words, when accuracy was above 85%, it took less time to correct
                                  errors in the transcription than to transcribe from scratch for the raw
                                  audio.
                                  ----
                                • elise_urbanek
                                  ... From a linguistics point of view, FYI, they re considered different varieties of the same language. :)
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Dec 25, 2005
                                    --- In agile-usability@yahoogroups.com, "Ron Vutpakdi" <vutpakdi@a...>
                                    wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Darn, just before I was going fire off an angry reply. ;-)
                                    >
                                    > Seriously, I think that part of this discussion highlights what I've
                                    > thought for many years (starting back when I was primarily a
                                    > developer): the hardest part of software development (in a team) isn't
                                    > the technology, the architecture, or the interaction design: it's the
                                    > people aspect of working in a team and working with those outside of
                                    > the team proper.
                                    >
                                    > Seems to me that cross cultural communication and understanding is one
                                    > of the biggest challenges where the "cross cultural" could be the
                                    > result of different disciplines, cultures, languages, locations,
                                    > and/or previous experiences. I'm currently slamming my head against
                                    > this particular brick wall. Most of the developers that I'm working
                                    > with are in Scotland and have never worked with an interaction
                                    > designer before. So I've got the discipline, location, culture, and
                                    > previous experience divide to bridge (some would also argue that
                                    > Scottish English counts as a different language than American English
                                    > :-) ).


                                    From a linguistics point of view, FYI, they're considered different
                                    'varieties' of the same language. :)
                                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.