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RE: [agile-usability] QWERTY, mouse, and novel input

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  • Joshua Seiden
    ... Josh replies: Buxton also said (at your last forUSE conference) something like this: as long as we are interacting with the computer using a mouse, we are
    Message 1 of 20 , Dec 6, 2005
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      Larry wrote:

      > Interestingly, both the keyboard and mouse have been roundly
      > criticized, yet have proved surprisingly robust as general
      > purpose HMI devices. Research has found that nothing else
      > works quite as well for so many purposes under so many
      > conditions, although other mechanisms may be better in
      > highly specific circumstances.

      And:

      > Bill Buxton distinguishes imitating physical reality in
      > GUI design from using externally learned skills and
      > associations within the framework of effective interaction
      > idioms.


      Josh replies: Buxton also said (at your last forUSE conference) something
      like this: as long as we are interacting with the computer using a mouse, we
      are interacting with the world using the equivalent of the point of a single
      chopstick. That gives us the manipulative power of a fruitfly!

      To be fair, this was in the context of a discussion of the limits of general
      purpose devices and general purpose computing.

      JS
    • Dymond, Robin
      Well, you won t find me trading my mouse for a touch screen and a chop stick any time soon! I agree with Larry, our systems are built within a context, the
      Message 2 of 20 , Dec 7, 2005
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        Well, you won't find me trading my mouse for a touch screen and a chop
        stick any time soon!

        I agree with Larry, our systems are built within a context, the idea of
        building an enterprise app with something other than a keyboard and
        mouse is quixotic.

        How come no one in this group is discussing ideas on integrating
        usability and agile?

        Agile is rapidly gaining adoption across the software industry, for
        example Microsoft has recently become a strong proponent of Scrum and is
        promoting it with their development tools. How are you integrating agile
        methods with usability ideas on a daily basis? Are you? Or do you have
        waterfall processes, in which the IAs do usability as part of the
        "Design" process, with mockups from photoshop, that may or may not
        become actual software?

        This group has been a bit of a disappointment. I think there is lots of
        work to be done. Usability practitioners will benefit from better
        integration with agile teams building better software quickly. But teams
        will adopt Agile with or without usability practitioners or their ideas
        on board.

        But maybe, with all of the good feedback agile teams get from working
        closely with a customer, usability is inherent, and IAs are largely
        irrelevant for most projects?

        Thoughts?

        Robin Dymond

        -----Original Message-----
        From: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
        [mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joshua Seiden
        Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 7:45 PM
        To: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [agile-usability] QWERTY, mouse, and novel input


        Larry wrote:

        > Interestingly, both the keyboard and mouse have been roundly
        > criticized, yet have proved surprisingly robust as general purpose HMI

        > devices. Research has found that nothing else works quite as well for
        > so many purposes under so many conditions, although other mechanisms
        > may be better in highly specific circumstances.

        And:

        > Bill Buxton distinguishes imitating physical reality in
        > GUI design from using externally learned skills and
        > associations within the framework of effective interaction
        > idioms.


        Josh replies: Buxton also said (at your last forUSE conference)
        something
        like this: as long as we are interacting with the computer using a
        mouse, we
        are interacting with the world using the equivalent of the point of a
        single
        chopstick. That gives us the manipulative power of a fruitfly!

        To be fair, this was in the context of a discussion of the limits of
        general
        purpose devices and general purpose computing.

        JS






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      • Josh Seiden
        ... [snip] ... There are certainly some frustrations associated with the group. One of them is the monthly discussion of the relevance of UX. Another is the
        Message 3 of 20 , Dec 7, 2005
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          > This group has been a bit of a disappointment. I
          > think there is lots of
          > work to be done. Usability practitioners will
          > benefit from better
          > integration with agile teams building better
          > software quickly. But teams
          > will adopt Agile with or without usability
          > practitioners or their ideas
          > on board.

          [snip]

          > But maybe, with all of the good feedback agile teams
          > get from working
          > closely with a customer, usability is inherent, and
          > IAs are largely
          > irrelevant for most projects?
          >
          > Thoughts?

          There are certainly some frustrations associated with
          the group. One of them is the monthly discussion of
          the relevance of UX. Another is the implication that
          UX practitioners should be grateful for a seat at a
          table with folks that don't see value in their work.

          For me, comments like are deeply disrespectful, and
          illustrate a major hurdle to closer collaboration--the
          basic lack of shared experience and trust among the
          players.

          That lack of shared experience will always be a
          hindrence to this discussion group. (Discussion lists
          don't create the shared experience we need. Project
          work does.) It would be interesting, Jeff, to take a
          poll to assess how many folks on this list have
          actually collaborated on an Agile/UI project.

          Personally, I'm here to learn about working in an
          Agile context, but have never worked in one. I wonder
          how many Agilists on this list have ever worked with a
          dedicated UX professional.

          JS
        • shel kimen
          It would be interesting, Jeff, to take a poll to assess how many folks on this list have actually collaborated on an Agile/UI project. I am an IA/Interaction
          Message 4 of 20 , Dec 7, 2005
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            It would be interesting, Jeff, to take a poll to assess how many folks on this list have
            actually collaborated on an Agile/UI project.

             

            I am an IA/Interaction Designer/Internet Strategist/Etc…. Since about 1995. Many different hats many different projects, 90% web with some .Net, mobile, and custom devices thrown in the mix.

             

            I’ve had one Agile dev experience, which was only part Agile b/c the client hadn’t finalized the dev environment while we (as consultants) went ahead defining use cases and general scenarios, trying to break it all into ‘stories’ anticipating an agile environment. I had extreme difficulty in creating space to establish a UX strategy, and it was tough to break out of my training in long exploratory concept phases. I noticed that on another project, another team (of consultants) with the same client were working very well to integrate usability, ux, and agile – they created what seemed to be smart and quick feedback loops that seemed to work. I never got to complete the project on our side – which is probably just as well – but I was enjoying ‘thinking differently’ . It was refreshing, rational, and a nice challenge.

             

            I was fascinated by Agile as a concept/philosophy and joined this list to try to understand the points of intersection – particularly relating to strategy and feedback. To Josh’s point – that has not happened and probably would not without a project.

             

            Now we are all very busy, and I certainly am not quite ready to jump up and lead a project – definitely not before 2006. But it would be interesting to pick some pro-bono something interesting to try and tackle, so those of us who want to learn more about Agile or more about UX in a team environment can have that opportunity.

             

            ./s

             

             

          • Desilets, Alain
            There are certainly some frustrations associated with the group. One of them is the monthly discussion of the relevance of UX. Another is the implication that
            Message 5 of 20 , Dec 7, 2005
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              There are certainly some frustrations associated with
              the group. One of them is the monthly discussion of
              the relevance of UX. Another is the implication that
              UX practitioners should be grateful for a seat at a
              table with folks that don't see value in their work.

              For me, comments like are deeply disrespectful, and
              illustrate a major hurdle to closer collaboration--the
              basic lack of shared experience and trust among the
              players.

              -- Alain:
              Interesting...

              I have not read anything on this list that to my eyes, questioned the
              relevance of either U* or Agile.

              I HAVE read a lot of discussion about which parts of these two
              approaches work well together, and how they can be modified to take
              advantage of each other.

              As a U* or Agile practicionner, you should not come to this list and
              expect that "what you know to be true" will be accepted without
              question. In fact, you should be prepared to revise "what you know is
              true", as a result of what you find here.

              As far as I can tell, the positions held by both U* and Agilists on this
              list are far more nuanced than the views of their respective
              constituancies. In other words, the Agilists on this list are more
              user-centered than most Agilists out there. And most U* people on this
              list are more Agile than most U* professionals out there.
              ----

              That lack of shared experience will always be a
              hindrence to this discussion group. (Discussion lists
              don't create the shared experience we need. Project
              work does.) It would be interesting, Jeff, to take a
              poll to assess how many folks on this list have
              actually collaborated on an Agile/UI project.

              Personally, I'm here to learn about working in an
              Agile context, but have never worked in one. I wonder
              how many Agilists on this list have ever worked with a dedicated UX
              professional.

              -- Alain:
              I for one work with one ollegue who is an HCI person all the time, and I
              really appreciate his contributions to my projects.
              ----
            • Ron Vutpakdi
              ... We have before, just not recently. You might want to check the archives. ... A number of people are integrating agile and usability successfully. One
              Message 6 of 20 , Dec 7, 2005
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                --- In agile-usability@yahoogroups.com, "Dymond, Robin"
                <robin.dymond@c...> wrote:
                >
                > How come no one in this group is discussing ideas on integrating
                > usability and agile?
                >
                We have before, just not recently. You might want to check the archives.

                > How are you integrating agile
                > methods with usability ideas on a daily basis? Are you? Or do you have
                > waterfall processes, in which the IAs do usability as part of the
                > "Design" process, with mockups from photoshop, that may or may not
                > become actual software?

                A number of people are integrating agile and usability successfully.
                One method is to basically be one iteration or otherwise just slightly
                ahead of the developers while trying to keep an eye out for a general
                idea of what might be coming down the road.

                On the usability and design side, a lot of practices involve scaling
                activities appropriately.

                On the development side, one practice seems to involve learning how to
                engage and consult usability rather than assuming that they don't matter.

                >
                > This group has been a bit of a disappointment. I think there is lots of
                > work to be done. Usability practitioners will benefit from better
                > integration with agile teams building better software quickly. But teams
                > will adopt Agile with or without usability practitioners or their ideas
                > on board.

                So it's just the usability practioners and designers who have to
                adapt, and not the whole team?

                >
                > But maybe, with all of the good feedback agile teams get from working
                > closely with a customer, usability is inherent, and IAs are largely
                > irrelevant for most projects?
                >

                Design still does matter as does usability. So does everyone learning
                how to work together as a team and draw from the best of everyone's
                skills so that the whole team is more than the sum of the individual
                members.

                I don't normally see teams where customers, through their feedback
                effectively design the internal or backend architecture. Why should
                the interface be any different? Yes, the feedback and input matter,
                are highly important, and should be used to influence the design.
                But, that doesn't mean that you want to give the customer the task of
                designing the interface for you.

                Ron
              • Ron Vutpakdi
                ... driving cars) ... Just as an aside: the doctors and psychologists that I know who use speech to text for dictation do so because it s faster for them to
                Message 7 of 20 , Dec 7, 2005
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                  --- In agile-usability@yahoogroups.com, "Desilets, Alain"
                  <alain.desilets@n...> wrote:
                  > Today's speech interfaces CAN be very useful, but only in limited
                  context like:
                  >
                  > - people who can't type (ex: RSI, paraplegics)
                  > - people who WON'T type (ex: "REAL lawyers/doctors don't type!")
                  > - people who are in hands and/or eyes busy situation (ex: people
                  driving cars)
                  >

                  Just as an aside: the doctors and psychologists that I know who use
                  speech to text for dictation do so because it's faster for them to
                  dictate reports rather than typing (not that they can't type). They
                  can do so while walking around or even just sitting at their desk, but
                  speaking is faster than typing.

                  In their cases, with a special dictionary and training, the
                  recognition is generally better than 95% since the vocabulary used is
                  considerably more limited than full speech.

                  Many doctors and psychologists still dictate reports/evaluations to a
                  phone service which then uses a person to transcribe the reports.

                  Ron
                • Ron Vutpakdi
                  ... I have (as far as usability and design goes). But, then again, I m also on another list where there are occasional flashes of usability is irrelevant
                  Message 8 of 20 , Dec 7, 2005
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                    --- In agile-usability@yahoogroups.com, "Desilets, Alain"
                    <alain.desilets@n...> wrote:
                    > -- Alain:
                    > Interesting...
                    >
                    > I have not read anything on this list that to my eyes, questioned the
                    > relevance of either U* or Agile.

                    I have (as far as usability and design goes). But, then again, I'm
                    also on another list where there are occasional flashes of "usability
                    is irrelevant" from the interaction designers on the list. In both
                    cases, I see it as a mixture of infantile "us vs. them," "I know
                    everything so I don't need you," "this sandbox is not big enough for
                    the two of us," or "you don't get to play in my sandbox" attitudes.

                    It's harder to get to the point of working together well if one starts
                    with that attitude. Respect and valuing what everyone can bring to
                    the table is what teams need to use everyone's strengths.

                    I have worked on non-agile and agilish projects. And, I like to think
                    of myself as being a fairly agile designer / usability guy since I
                    adapt what I do to meet what the teams want/need/can handle. But,
                    things work best when the teams adapt as well.

                    Ron
                  • Desilets, Alain
                    ... From: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com [mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ron Vutpakdi Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 2:33 PM I have
                    Message 9 of 20 , Dec 7, 2005
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                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
                      [mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ron Vutpakdi
                      Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 2:33 PM
                      I have (as far as usability and design goes). But, then again, I'm also
                      on another list where there are occasional flashes of "usability is
                      irrelevant" from the interaction designers on the list.

                      -- Alain:
                      For sure, you get the occasional posting of this sort on all lists
                      (including this one).

                      My point is that this list does not exhibit more of those types of
                      messages than your average mailing list.

                      Therefore, if you come to this list and feel that your discipline (be it
                      U* or Agile development) is being dismissed, you are probably not coming
                      to it with an open mind.
                      ----
                    • Desilets, Alain
                      Therefore, if you come to this list and feel that your discipline (be it U* or Agile development) is being dismissed, you are probably not coming to it with an
                      Message 10 of 20 , Dec 7, 2005
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                        Therefore, if you come to this list and feel that your discipline (be it
                        U* or Agile development) is being dismissed, you are probably not coming
                        to it with an open mind.

                        -- Alain:
                        BTW: in the above I didn't mean you, Ron Vutpakdi (I know you have an
                        open mind ;-)). I meant the generic you, as in "if someone comes to this
                        list and feels etc..."
                        -----
                      • Ron Vutpakdi
                        ... Darn, just before I was going fire off an angry reply. ;-) Seriously, I think that part of this discussion highlights what I ve thought for many years
                        Message 11 of 20 , Dec 7, 2005
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                          --- In agile-usability@yahoogroups.com, "Desilets, Alain"
                          <alain.desilets@n...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Therefore, if you come to this list and feel that your discipline (be it
                          > U* or Agile development) is being dismissed, you are probably not coming
                          > to it with an open mind.
                          >
                          > -- Alain:
                          > BTW: in the above I didn't mean you, Ron Vutpakdi (I know you have an
                          > open mind ;-)). I meant the generic you, as in "if someone comes to this
                          > list and feels etc..."
                          > -----
                          >
                          Darn, just before I was going fire off an angry reply. ;-)

                          Seriously, I think that part of this discussion highlights what I've
                          thought for many years (starting back when I was primarily a
                          developer): the hardest part of software development (in a team) isn't
                          the technology, the architecture, or the interaction design: it's the
                          people aspect of working in a team and working with those outside of
                          the team proper.

                          Seems to me that cross cultural communication and understanding is one
                          of the biggest challenges where the "cross cultural" could be the
                          result of different disciplines, cultures, languages, locations,
                          and/or previous experiences. I'm currently slamming my head against
                          this particular brick wall. Most of the developers that I'm working
                          with are in Scotland and have never worked with an interaction
                          designer before. So I've got the discipline, location, culture, and
                          previous experience divide to bridge (some would also argue that
                          Scottish English counts as a different language than American English
                          :-) ).

                          More face to face time and experience working together would really help.

                          On a more relevant note, how many people here have worked on an agile
                          development team split across 6+ time zones? Any suggestions? We
                          really need the equivalent of a shared team room where we can put up
                          task/story cards and such, and SharePoint (uggh) just isn't cutting it.

                          I thought about trying to do a virtual one in Canvas, but that limits
                          who can effectively update the "wall".

                          Ron
                        • Jade Ohlhauser
                          And here I thought you had stopped following this list, Robin :) * I think a challenge to this discussion is that the knowledge a lot of people desire is about
                          Message 12 of 20 , Dec 7, 2005
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                            And here I thought you had stopped following this list, Robin :) *
                             
                            I think a challenge to this discussion is that the knowledge a lot of people desire is about the details. I personally believe it's not the big ideas that make the most difference on real world projects, it's the hundreds of little things.
                             
                            Let me put it another way. A while ago I was at the (good) CANUX conference in Banff (http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/creativecanux/). There was various presentations on various subjects, but the ones that really stood out for me were the case studies. I saw their analysis studies, their interesting life-size cardboard personas covered in multi-color post-its, etc. To me those "facts" were more interesting and more useful than the academic arguments.
                             
                            Unfortunately I don't have any suggestions for this list re: that.
                             
                            Anyway, Ron said:
                             
                            "... the hardest part of software development (in a team) isn't
                            the technology, the architecture, or the interaction design: it's the
                            people aspect of working in a team and working with those outside of
                            the team proper."
                            I agree, one topic I'd enjoy going into deeper is documentation. At our shop documentation and mockups/prototypes are a key part of the relationship between usability and development and the agileness of both. We started down this road with the wiki discussion. Anyone else?
                             
                            Jade Ohlhauser
                            Product Manager
                            RPM Software                                 
                            www.rpmsoftware.com 403-265-6727 x704
                             
                             
                             
                             
                            * Disclaimer: we worked together for a year and a half, but it felt much longer (in a good way)
                             
                             


                            From: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com [mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dymond, Robin
                            Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 8:36 AM
                            To: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: RE: [agile-usability] QWERTY, mouse, and novel input

                            Well, you won't find me trading my mouse for a touch screen and a chop
                            stick any time soon!

                            I agree with Larry, our systems are built within a context, the idea of
                            building an enterprise app with something other than a keyboard and
                            mouse is quixotic.

                            How come no one in this group is discussing ideas on integrating
                            usability and agile?

                            Agile is rapidly gaining adoption across the software industry, for
                            example Microsoft has recently become a strong proponent of Scrum and is
                            promoting it with their development tools. How are you integrating agile
                            methods with usability ideas on a daily basis? Are you? Or do you have
                            waterfall processes, in which the IAs do usability as part of the
                            "Design" process, with mockups from photoshop, that may or may not
                            become actual software?

                            This group has been a bit of a disappointment. I think there is lots of
                            work to be done. Usability practitioners will benefit from better
                            integration with agile teams building better software quickly. But teams
                            will adopt Agile with or without usability practitioners or their ideas
                            on board.

                            But maybe, with all of the good feedback agile teams get from working
                            closely with a customer, usability is inherent, and IAs are largely
                            irrelevant for most projects?

                            Thoughts?

                            Robin Dymond

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
                            [mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joshua Seiden
                            Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 7:45 PM
                            To: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: RE: [agile-usability] QWERTY, mouse, and novel input


                            Larry wrote:

                            > Interestingly, both the keyboard and mouse have been roundly
                            > criticized, yet have proved surprisingly robust as general purpose HMI

                            > devices. Research has found that nothing else works quite as well for
                            > so many purposes under so many conditions, although other mechanisms
                            > may be better in highly specific circumstances.

                            And:

                            > Bill Buxton distinguishes imitating physical reality in
                            > GUI design from using externally learned skills and
                            > associations within the framework of effective interaction
                            > idioms.


                            Josh replies: Buxton also said (at your last forUSE conference)
                            something
                            like this: as long as we are interacting with the computer using a
                            mouse, we
                            are interacting with the world using the equivalent of the point of a
                            single
                            chopstick. That gives us the manipulative power of a fruitfly!

                            To be fair, this was in the context of a discussion of the limits of
                            general
                            purpose devices and general purpose computing.

                            JS






                            Yahoo! Groups Links







                            The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and/or proprietary
                            to Capital One and/or its affiliates. The information transmitted herewith
                            is intended only for use by the individual or entity to which it is
                            addressed.  If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient,
                            you are hereby notified that any review, retransmission, dissemination,
                            distribution, copying or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance
                            upon this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this
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                          • Desilets, Alain
                            Seriously, I think that part of this discussion highlights what I ve thought for many years (starting back when I was primarily a developer): the hardest part
                            Message 13 of 20 , Dec 7, 2005
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                              Seriously, I think that part of this discussion highlights what I've
                              thought for many years (starting back when I was primarily a
                              developer): the hardest part of software development (in a team) isn't
                              the technology, the architecture, or the interaction design: it's the
                              people aspect of working in a team and working with those outside of the
                              team proper.

                              Seems to me that cross cultural communication and understanding is one
                              of the biggest challenges where the "cross cultural" could be the result
                              of different disciplines, cultures, languages, locations, and/or
                              previous experiences. I'm currently slamming my head against this
                              particular brick wall. Most of the developers that I'm working with are
                              in Scotland and have never worked with an interaction designer before.
                              So I've got the discipline, location, culture, and previous experience
                              divide to bridge (some would also argue that Scottish English counts as
                              a different language than American English
                              :-) ).

                              More face to face time and experience working together would really
                              help.

                              -- Alain:
                              Righto. To quote from the Agile manifesto:

                              "Individuals and interactions over processes and tools"

                              This is the only way to bridge the various culture gaps involved in a
                              software project.
                              ----









                              Yahoo! Groups Links
                            • Larry Constantine
                              ... we ... single ... On many occasions while sharing dimsum I have been impressed by what can be accomplished with chopsticks. ;-) --Larry Constantine, IDSA
                              Message 14 of 20 , Dec 8, 2005
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                                > Josh replies: Buxton also said (at your last forUSE conference) something
                                > like this: as long as we are interacting with the computer using a mouse,
                                we
                                > are interacting with the world using the equivalent of the point of a
                                single
                                > chopstick. That gives us the manipulative power of a fruitfly!

                                On many occasions while sharing dimsum I have been impressed by what can be
                                accomplished with chopsticks. ;-)

                                --Larry Constantine, IDSA
                              • Larry Constantine
                                ... Another interesting example. Audio noting to the chart, whether supported by speech-to-text software or human transcription is a must-have function in
                                Message 15 of 20 , Dec 8, 2005
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                                  Ron Vutpakdi wrote:

                                  > Just as an aside: the doctors and psychologists that I know who use
                                  > speech to text for dictation do so because it's faster for them to
                                  > dictate reports rather than typing (not that they can't type). They
                                  > can do so while walking around or even just sitting at their desk, but
                                  > speaking is faster than typing.
                                  >
                                  > In their cases, with a special dictionary and training, the
                                  > recognition is generally better than 95% since the vocabulary used is
                                  > considerably more limited than full speech.
                                  >
                                  > Many doctors and psychologists still dictate reports/evaluations to a
                                  > phone service which then uses a person to transcribe the reports.

                                  Another interesting example. Audio noting to the chart, whether supported by
                                  speech-to-text software or human transcription is a must-have function in
                                  modern medical informatics, but that does not mean it is truly efficient or
                                  sufficiently reliable to meet real medical practice objectives. Because of
                                  the high potential for errors (95% accuracy sounds good until you turn it
                                  around: 1 out of 20 words is wrong), transcribed audio does not become part
                                  of the legal patient record until the dictating clinician reviews and signs
                                  off on the transcription. Reviewing for errors and correcting is a somewhat
                                  tedious process and itself quite error prone, particularly as clinicians
                                  typically do so at a later time when the context is no longer fresh in their
                                  heads. Transcribed audio, even after review, correction, and sign-off, has a
                                  significantly higher error rate than directly entered notes and orders.

                                  I don't know if the analysis has been done in medical settings, but in other
                                  contexts, when all activities in the process are taken into
                                  account(including slowed speech, repetition and correction on the fly,
                                  review and editing), the effective total throughput is almost invariably
                                  less than even slow direct keyboard entry. We can process up to about 400
                                  wpm when heard and rapid speech clocks at nearly 200 wpm, although 120-160
                                  is considered tops for persuasive communication. The best commercial
                                  "trained" speech-to-text systems are typically only good to about 100 wpm.
                                  But, users typically find they can spend as much time correcting errors as
                                  dictating (some report as much as 2-3 times). So effective throughput drops
                                  to well within the range of typical typing (30-60 wpm).

                                  That said, it can still be more efficient use of the clinician's time if
                                  notes and orders can be dictated while moving between patients or while
                                  riding the subway. (Although HIPAA compliance may become an issue in the
                                  latter case.)

                                  I think audio notes and orders could actually diminish in use over time, at
                                  least in the short run, because the new generation of clinicians has grown
                                  up with computers. My personal physician does all his own notes and orders
                                  directly into the medical system, typing away at 100+ words/minute. When I
                                  commented, he mentioned growing up with computers and video games, then
                                  added that being a musician also helped!

                                  --Larry Constantine, IDSA
                                • Desilets, Alain
                                  I don t know if the analysis has been done in medical settings, but in other contexts, when all activities in the process are taken into account(including
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Dec 8, 2005
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                                    I don't know if the analysis has been done in medical settings, but in
                                    other contexts, when all activities in the process are taken into
                                    account(including slowed speech, repetition and correction on the fly,
                                    review and editing), the effective total throughput is almost invariably
                                    less than even slow direct keyboard entry. We can process up to about
                                    400 wpm when heard and rapid speech clocks at nearly 200 wpm, although
                                    120-160 is considered tops for persuasive communication. The best
                                    commercial "trained" speech-to-text systems are typically only good to
                                    about 100 wpm. But, users typically find they can spend as much time
                                    correcting errors as dictating (some report as much as 2-3 times). So
                                    effective throughput drops to well within the range of typical typing
                                    (30-60 wpm).

                                    -- Alain:
                                    In one of the projects I worked on (computer-assisted transcription of
                                    the debates at the House of Commons of Canada), we did some WOZ
                                    experiments with professional transcribers and found that we broke even
                                    when the speech recognition system had an accuracy of around 85%. In
                                    other words, when accuracy was above 85%, it took less time to correct
                                    errors in the transcription than to transcribe from scratch for the raw
                                    audio.
                                    ----
                                  • elise_urbanek
                                    ... From a linguistics point of view, FYI, they re considered different varieties of the same language. :)
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Dec 25, 2005
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                                      --- In agile-usability@yahoogroups.com, "Ron Vutpakdi" <vutpakdi@a...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Darn, just before I was going fire off an angry reply. ;-)
                                      >
                                      > Seriously, I think that part of this discussion highlights what I've
                                      > thought for many years (starting back when I was primarily a
                                      > developer): the hardest part of software development (in a team) isn't
                                      > the technology, the architecture, or the interaction design: it's the
                                      > people aspect of working in a team and working with those outside of
                                      > the team proper.
                                      >
                                      > Seems to me that cross cultural communication and understanding is one
                                      > of the biggest challenges where the "cross cultural" could be the
                                      > result of different disciplines, cultures, languages, locations,
                                      > and/or previous experiences. I'm currently slamming my head against
                                      > this particular brick wall. Most of the developers that I'm working
                                      > with are in Scotland and have never worked with an interaction
                                      > designer before. So I've got the discipline, location, culture, and
                                      > previous experience divide to bridge (some would also argue that
                                      > Scottish English counts as a different language than American English
                                      > :-) ).


                                      From a linguistics point of view, FYI, they're considered different
                                      'varieties' of the same language. :)
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