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RE: [agile-usability] follow the leader

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  • Damhuis Anton
    Hi I just tried this *bug*, and had no problem editing the text with the and features, you described as a bug. I am using Excel version 9
    Message 1 of 22 , Nov 3, 2005
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      Hi

      I just tried this *bug*, and had no problem editing the text with the <left> and <ctlr><left> features, you described as a bug.
      I am using Excel version 9 SP3, so is it not maybe a setting somewhere in Excel?

      Regards
      Anton


      -----Original Message-----
      From: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
      [mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Phlip
      Sent: 04 November 2005 01:07
      To: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [agile-usability] follow the leader
      ....
      When I type a mistake, I may catch it several words later. The most
      efficient way to move the text caret back to the mistake is either
      <Left> or <Ctrl+Left>. It's not <Backspace>, because I'm proficient.
      I'm smart enough not to need to type all that text again just to edit
      a mistake.

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      =======================

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      are confidential and any use thereof, in what ever form, by anyone
      other than the addressee is strictly prohibited.
    • Desilets, Alain
      -- Phlip wrote: The best editor I ever used was non-CUA. Rick Stiles s UEdit, for AmigaDOS, had a usability envelop architected from scratch, with no
      Message 2 of 22 , Nov 4, 2005
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        -- Phlip wrote:
        The best editor I ever used was non-CUA. Rick Stiles's UEdit, for
        AmigaDOS, had a usability envelop architected from scratch, with no
        underlying GUI to introduce any systems. Rick simply took over an Amiga
        screen and blitted text all over it.

        <SNIP>

        The usability achieved the minimum keystrokes between any two points I
        have ever seen. For example, UEdit's scripting language defined
        BeginningOfWord as before the first character, and EndOfWord as after
        the last. So the <Left> arrow mapped trivially onto BeginningOfWord, and
        <Right> onto EndOfWord.

        Yes, that's right. <Left> did not move the caret left over one
        character. It would jump a whole word, and put the character right at
        its beginning. Right would jump to the end of a word, and put the
        character between it and any punctuation.

        When you edit, this is where you most likely want to go. If you then
        fine-tune your position, you use <Shift+Left> to move over one
        character.

        <SNIP>

        So on CUA, I would <Ctrl+Left> more often than <Left> even if I weren't
        a sloppy typist. The wrong action is the default, and the barrier to
        fixing this is much higher _because_ CUA is a "standard".
        ----

        -- Alain:
        It's interesting that you would write this. What you are describing
        above is in all respects equivalent to MS Excel defining <Left> as
        meaning "move to the previous cell". In a spreadsheet context, moving
        from one cell to an adjacent cell is more frequent than moving from one
        character to an adjacent one. Yet, while you loved the fact that Uedit
        assigned word navigation to the <Left> key, you hate the fact that Excel
        assigns cell navigation to the <Left> key. OK, Excel does not even have
        a separate key sequences (ex: <Ctr>+<Left>) for moving to the previous
        character, but I gather that your annoyance was caused by the fact that
        Excel overrode the standard meaning of <Left>.

        So there must be something else that bothers you about the way MS Excel
        supports cell vs character navigation with arrow keys. What is it?
        ----
      • Ignacio Facello
        I haven t used Excel much, but I remember having the opposite problem -- I am editing a cell, and left-right moves the caret in the text. How do I go to the
        Message 3 of 22 , Nov 4, 2005
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          I haven't used Excel much, but I remember having the opposite problem -- I am
          editing a cell, and left-right moves the caret in the text. How do I go to the
          previous cell?
          And also, I had the problem the OP described. It all depended on what I was
          doing, which was frustrating. I think Excel should behave the same no matter
          what you were doing -- whether left moves the caret or changes cell, I wouldn't
          care, I would get used to it. What bothers me is the different behaviour with no
          significant visual cue that you are in a different mode.

          Quoting "Desilets, Alain" <alain.desilets@...>:

          > -- Alain:
          > It's interesting that you would write this. What you are describing
          > above is in all respects equivalent to MS Excel defining <Left> as
          > meaning "move to the previous cell". In a spreadsheet context, moving
          > from one cell to an adjacent cell is more frequent than moving from one
          > character to an adjacent one. Yet, while you loved the fact that Uedit
          > assigned word navigation to the <Left> key, you hate the fact that Excel
          > assigns cell navigation to the <Left> key. OK, Excel does not even have
          > a separate key sequences (ex: <Ctr>+<Left>) for moving to the previous
          > character, but I gather that your annoyance was caused by the fact that
          > Excel overrode the standard meaning of <Left>.
          >
          > So there must be something else that bothers you about the way MS Excel
          > supports cell vs character navigation with arrow keys. What is it?
          > ----



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        • Jon Kern
          an upstart *should* offer improvements... including in usability. however, one can also offer up the option: [ ] Behave like the Market leader QuattroPro was
          Message 4 of 22 , Nov 4, 2005
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            an upstart *should* offer improvements... including in usability.

            however, one can also offer up the option:
                    [ ] "Behave like the Market leader"

            QuattroPro was a wonderful departure from Lotus 1-2-3
            Excel did a wonderful copy of QP (i think)

            -- jon
            
            

            Phlip said the following on 11/4/2005 11:26 AM:
            Ash Donaldson wrote:

            <cut>
            The topic I had hoped to raise is simple: If a market leader enforces
            a bad usability decision, and the majority of the world follows it,
            the market upstarts have the odious choice of either following the bad
            lead, or breaking with tradition and risk looking bad.

            How was this week's ZeekLand, everyone? ;-)

            --
              Phlip
              http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand  <-- NOT a blog!!
          • Phlip
            ... Now there s an example of slick usability that did everything _wrong_ by todays standards. Everyone nowadays does Object- Action. First you select the
            Message 5 of 22 , Nov 4, 2005
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              Jon Kern wrote:

              > Lotus 1-2-3

              Now there's an example of slick usability that did everything _wrong_
              by todays standards.

              Everyone nowadays does Object->Action. First you select the object,
              then you pick an action. Example: Select some cells, then Copy them.

              In Lotus 1-2-3, you declare Copy, and get a Cell Selector Mode to pick
              the cells to copy.

              So the amazing thing was this got useful and intuitive, after you
              start using it.

              --
              Phlip
              http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!
            • Phlip
              ... It s because Microsoft invented it! Snarl! Drool! Drool! (Uh, the principle of least surprise might also apply...) -- Phlip
              Message 6 of 22 , Nov 4, 2005
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                Desilets, Alain wrote:

                > So there must be something else that bothers you about the way MS Excel
                > supports cell vs character navigation with arrow keys. What is it?

                It's because Microsoft invented it! Snarl! Drool! Drool!

                (Uh, the principle of least surprise might also apply...)

                --
                Phlip
                http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!
              • Phlip
                ... The CUA sez it should be . ... Arrow to a cell and start typing alpha without . You are still in arrow among cells mode , not text edit
                Message 7 of 22 , Nov 4, 2005
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                  Ignacio Facello wrote:


                  > I haven't used Excel much, but I remember having the opposite problem
                  > -- I am
                  > editing a cell, and left-right moves the caret in the text. How do I go to the
                  > previous cell?

                  The CUA sez it should be <Shift+Tab>.

                  > And also, I had the problem the OP described. It all depended on what I was
                  > doing, which was frustrating.

                  Arrow to a cell and start typing alpha without <F2>. You are still in
                  "arrow among cells mode", not "text edit mode", and the system allows
                  you to enter text essentially as a "convenience".

                  > What bothers me is the different behaviour with no
                  > significant visual cue that you are in a different mode.

                  Not at all. The frame around the cell goes from a focus-style to an
                  edit field frame style.

                  Can't you tell? ;-)

                  --
                  Phlip
                  http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!
                • Anthony Williams
                  ... XEmacs does this, and I presume emacs does too. Anthony -- Anthony Williams Software Developer Just Software Solutions Ltd
                  Message 8 of 22 , Dec 16, 2005
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                    Phlip <phlip2005@...> writes:

                    > On UEdit, when you type off the end of a window, the caret would
                    > scroll to the center of the window. This is the correct behavior, and
                    > I never saw any editor since use it.

                    XEmacs does this, and I presume emacs does too.

                    Anthony
                    --
                    Anthony Williams
                    Software Developer
                    Just Software Solutions Ltd
                    http://www.justsoftwaresolutions.co.uk
                  • Desilets, Alain
                    ... XEmacs does this, and I presume emacs does too. -- Alain: Yes it does, and I HATE it (eventhough I have been using Emacs for 12 years). Whenever the screen
                    Message 9 of 22 , Dec 16, 2005
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                      > On UEdit, when you type off the end of a window, the caret would
                      > scroll to the center of the window. This is the correct behavior, and
                      > I never saw any editor since use it.

                      XEmacs does this, and I presume emacs does too.

                      -- Alain:
                      Yes it does, and I HATE it (eventhough I have been using Emacs for 12
                      years). Whenever the screen jumps like that, I completely loose my sense
                      of where I am within the buffer.
                      ----
                    • Anthony Williams
                      ... Interesting. I never really noticed until I read Phlip s message, despite the fact that I use XEmacs all the time (including writing this email). But then,
                      Message 10 of 22 , Dec 16, 2005
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                        "Desilets, Alain" <alain.desilets@...> writes:

                        >> On UEdit, when you type off the end of a window, the caret would
                        >> scroll to the center of the window. This is the correct behavior, and
                        >> I never saw any editor since use it.
                        >
                        > XEmacs does this, and I presume emacs does too.
                        >
                        > -- Alain:
                        > Yes it does, and I HATE it (eventhough I have been using Emacs for 12
                        > years). Whenever the screen jumps like that, I completely loose my sense
                        > of where I am within the buffer.
                        > ----

                        Interesting. I never really noticed until I read Phlip's message, despite the
                        fact that I use XEmacs all the time (including writing this email). But then,
                        I'm particularly good at keeping my place when the text moves --- I can read
                        whilst scrolling the buffer at a reasonable pace (e.g. when hunting through
                        a long list of search results for something relevant).

                        I can see the benefit of not having the text jump around whilst you're
                        working, but if it doesn't, then the cursor is almost always at the bottom of
                        the window, which strikes me as less than ideal.

                        Anthony
                        --
                        Anthony Williams
                        Software Developer
                        Just Software Solutions Ltd
                        http://www.justsoftwaresolutions.co.uk
                      • Desilets, Alain
                        Interesting. I never really noticed until I read Phlip s message, despite the fact that I use XEmacs all the time (including writing this email). But then, I m
                        Message 11 of 22 , Dec 16, 2005
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                          Interesting. I never really noticed until I read Phlip's message,
                          despite the fact that I use XEmacs all the time (including writing this
                          email). But then, I'm particularly good at keeping my place when the
                          text moves --- I can read whilst scrolling the buffer at a reasonable
                          pace (e.g. when hunting through a long list of search results for
                          something relevant).

                          -- Alain:
                          I'm a very spatially challenged person. I get lost rapidly when my
                          environment keeps changing dynamically.
                          ----
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