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RE: [agile-usability] follow the leader

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  • Damhuis Anton
    Hi I just tried this *bug*, and had no problem editing the text with the and features, you described as a bug. I am using Excel version 9
    Message 1 of 22 , Nov 3, 2005
      Hi

      I just tried this *bug*, and had no problem editing the text with the <left> and <ctlr><left> features, you described as a bug.
      I am using Excel version 9 SP3, so is it not maybe a setting somewhere in Excel?

      Regards
      Anton


      -----Original Message-----
      From: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
      [mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Phlip
      Sent: 04 November 2005 01:07
      To: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [agile-usability] follow the leader
      ....
      When I type a mistake, I may catch it several words later. The most
      efficient way to move the text caret back to the mistake is either
      <Left> or <Ctrl+Left>. It's not <Backspace>, because I'm proficient.
      I'm smart enough not to need to type all that text again just to edit
      a mistake.

      Confidentiality Warning
      =======================

      The contents of this e-mail and any accompanying documentation
      are confidential and any use thereof, in what ever form, by anyone
      other than the addressee is strictly prohibited.
    • Josh Seiden
      I do a talk called Violate Standards! in which I encourage designers to see these kind of de facto design standards as opportunities for innovation. The
      Message 2 of 22 , Nov 4, 2005
        I do a talk called "Violate Standards!" in which I
        encourage designers to see these kind of de facto
        "design standards" as opportunities for innovation.
        The argument is this: where there is a standard answer
        design answer, there is also likely an opportunity to
        create a better solution.

        The canonical example of this kind of critical
        thinking is the error dialog. Designers should see
        error dialogs--the standard way to present errors--as
        an opportunity to design error-prevention systems into
        the app, thus obviating the need for the standard
        solution, and improving the user experience.

        Of course, this works only as a thinking exercise, not
        as a fundamental design strategy.

        If anyone is interested in the slides, let me know.

        JS
        --- Phlip <phlip2005@...> wrote:


        > The topic I had hoped to raise is simple: If a
        > market leader enforces
        > a bad usability decision, and the majority of the
        > world follows it,
        > the market upstarts have the odious choice of either
        > following the bad
        > lead, or breaking with tradition and risk looking
        > bad.
      • Phlip
        ... The best editor I ever used was non-CUA. Rick Stiles s UEdit, for AmigaDOS, had a usability envelop architected from scratch, with no underlying GUI to
        Message 3 of 22 , Nov 4, 2005
          Josh Seiden wrote:

          > Of course, this works only as a thinking exercise, not
          > as a fundamental design strategy.

          The best editor I ever used was non-CUA. Rick Stiles's UEdit, for
          AmigaDOS, had a usability envelop architected from scratch, with no
          underlying GUI to introduce any systems. Rick simply took over an
          Amiga screen and blitted text all over it.

          The usability achieved the minimum keystrokes between any two points I
          have ever seen. For example, UEdit's scripting language defined
          BeginningOfWord as before the first character, and EndOfWord as after
          the last. So the <Left> arrow mapped trivially onto BeginningOfWord,
          and <Right> onto EndOfWord.

          Yes, that's right. <Left> did not move the caret left over one
          character. It would jump a whole word, and put the character right at
          its beginning. Right would jump to the end of a word, and put the
          character between it and any punctuation.

          When you edit, this is where you most likely want to go. If you then
          fine-tune your position, you use <Shift+Left> to move over one
          character.

          Incidentally, UEdit's scripting language built jargon like
          "<Shift+Left>" directly into its keywords.

          So on CUA, I would <Ctrl+Left> more often than <Left> even if I
          weren't a sloppy typist. The wrong action is the default, and the
          barrier to fixing this is much higher _because_ CUA is a "standard".

          There are easier places to start. For example, on any CUA editor if
          you type off the end of a window, the editor will scroll up one line,
          and leave your caret scrambling against the bottom edge of the window.
          You must scroll to put the caret at eye level, and to see any text
          below the caret.

          On UEdit, when you type off the end of a window, the caret would
          scroll to the center of the window. This is the correct behavior, and
          I never saw any editor since use it.

          It should be really easy to add.

          --
          Phlip
          http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!
        • Desilets, Alain
          -- Phlip wrote: The best editor I ever used was non-CUA. Rick Stiles s UEdit, for AmigaDOS, had a usability envelop architected from scratch, with no
          Message 4 of 22 , Nov 4, 2005
            -- Phlip wrote:
            The best editor I ever used was non-CUA. Rick Stiles's UEdit, for
            AmigaDOS, had a usability envelop architected from scratch, with no
            underlying GUI to introduce any systems. Rick simply took over an Amiga
            screen and blitted text all over it.

            <SNIP>

            The usability achieved the minimum keystrokes between any two points I
            have ever seen. For example, UEdit's scripting language defined
            BeginningOfWord as before the first character, and EndOfWord as after
            the last. So the <Left> arrow mapped trivially onto BeginningOfWord, and
            <Right> onto EndOfWord.

            Yes, that's right. <Left> did not move the caret left over one
            character. It would jump a whole word, and put the character right at
            its beginning. Right would jump to the end of a word, and put the
            character between it and any punctuation.

            When you edit, this is where you most likely want to go. If you then
            fine-tune your position, you use <Shift+Left> to move over one
            character.

            <SNIP>

            So on CUA, I would <Ctrl+Left> more often than <Left> even if I weren't
            a sloppy typist. The wrong action is the default, and the barrier to
            fixing this is much higher _because_ CUA is a "standard".
            ----

            -- Alain:
            It's interesting that you would write this. What you are describing
            above is in all respects equivalent to MS Excel defining <Left> as
            meaning "move to the previous cell". In a spreadsheet context, moving
            from one cell to an adjacent cell is more frequent than moving from one
            character to an adjacent one. Yet, while you loved the fact that Uedit
            assigned word navigation to the <Left> key, you hate the fact that Excel
            assigns cell navigation to the <Left> key. OK, Excel does not even have
            a separate key sequences (ex: <Ctr>+<Left>) for moving to the previous
            character, but I gather that your annoyance was caused by the fact that
            Excel overrode the standard meaning of <Left>.

            So there must be something else that bothers you about the way MS Excel
            supports cell vs character navigation with arrow keys. What is it?
            ----
          • Ignacio Facello
            I haven t used Excel much, but I remember having the opposite problem -- I am editing a cell, and left-right moves the caret in the text. How do I go to the
            Message 5 of 22 , Nov 4, 2005
              I haven't used Excel much, but I remember having the opposite problem -- I am
              editing a cell, and left-right moves the caret in the text. How do I go to the
              previous cell?
              And also, I had the problem the OP described. It all depended on what I was
              doing, which was frustrating. I think Excel should behave the same no matter
              what you were doing -- whether left moves the caret or changes cell, I wouldn't
              care, I would get used to it. What bothers me is the different behaviour with no
              significant visual cue that you are in a different mode.

              Quoting "Desilets, Alain" <alain.desilets@...>:

              > -- Alain:
              > It's interesting that you would write this. What you are describing
              > above is in all respects equivalent to MS Excel defining <Left> as
              > meaning "move to the previous cell". In a spreadsheet context, moving
              > from one cell to an adjacent cell is more frequent than moving from one
              > character to an adjacent one. Yet, while you loved the fact that Uedit
              > assigned word navigation to the <Left> key, you hate the fact that Excel
              > assigns cell navigation to the <Left> key. OK, Excel does not even have
              > a separate key sequences (ex: <Ctr>+<Left>) for moving to the previous
              > character, but I gather that your annoyance was caused by the fact that
              > Excel overrode the standard meaning of <Left>.
              >
              > So there must be something else that bothers you about the way MS Excel
              > supports cell vs character navigation with arrow keys. What is it?
              > ----



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            • Jon Kern
              an upstart *should* offer improvements... including in usability. however, one can also offer up the option: [ ] Behave like the Market leader QuattroPro was
              Message 6 of 22 , Nov 4, 2005
                an upstart *should* offer improvements... including in usability.

                however, one can also offer up the option:
                        [ ] "Behave like the Market leader"

                QuattroPro was a wonderful departure from Lotus 1-2-3
                Excel did a wonderful copy of QP (i think)

                -- jon
                
                

                Phlip said the following on 11/4/2005 11:26 AM:
                Ash Donaldson wrote:

                <cut>
                The topic I had hoped to raise is simple: If a market leader enforces
                a bad usability decision, and the majority of the world follows it,
                the market upstarts have the odious choice of either following the bad
                lead, or breaking with tradition and risk looking bad.

                How was this week's ZeekLand, everyone? ;-)

                --
                  Phlip
                  http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand  <-- NOT a blog!!
              • Phlip
                ... Now there s an example of slick usability that did everything _wrong_ by todays standards. Everyone nowadays does Object- Action. First you select the
                Message 7 of 22 , Nov 4, 2005
                  Jon Kern wrote:

                  > Lotus 1-2-3

                  Now there's an example of slick usability that did everything _wrong_
                  by todays standards.

                  Everyone nowadays does Object->Action. First you select the object,
                  then you pick an action. Example: Select some cells, then Copy them.

                  In Lotus 1-2-3, you declare Copy, and get a Cell Selector Mode to pick
                  the cells to copy.

                  So the amazing thing was this got useful and intuitive, after you
                  start using it.

                  --
                  Phlip
                  http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!
                • Phlip
                  ... It s because Microsoft invented it! Snarl! Drool! Drool! (Uh, the principle of least surprise might also apply...) -- Phlip
                  Message 8 of 22 , Nov 4, 2005
                    Desilets, Alain wrote:

                    > So there must be something else that bothers you about the way MS Excel
                    > supports cell vs character navigation with arrow keys. What is it?

                    It's because Microsoft invented it! Snarl! Drool! Drool!

                    (Uh, the principle of least surprise might also apply...)

                    --
                    Phlip
                    http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!
                  • Phlip
                    ... The CUA sez it should be . ... Arrow to a cell and start typing alpha without . You are still in arrow among cells mode , not text edit
                    Message 9 of 22 , Nov 4, 2005
                      Ignacio Facello wrote:


                      > I haven't used Excel much, but I remember having the opposite problem
                      > -- I am
                      > editing a cell, and left-right moves the caret in the text. How do I go to the
                      > previous cell?

                      The CUA sez it should be <Shift+Tab>.

                      > And also, I had the problem the OP described. It all depended on what I was
                      > doing, which was frustrating.

                      Arrow to a cell and start typing alpha without <F2>. You are still in
                      "arrow among cells mode", not "text edit mode", and the system allows
                      you to enter text essentially as a "convenience".

                      > What bothers me is the different behaviour with no
                      > significant visual cue that you are in a different mode.

                      Not at all. The frame around the cell goes from a focus-style to an
                      edit field frame style.

                      Can't you tell? ;-)

                      --
                      Phlip
                      http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!
                    • Anthony Williams
                      ... XEmacs does this, and I presume emacs does too. Anthony -- Anthony Williams Software Developer Just Software Solutions Ltd
                      Message 10 of 22 , Dec 16, 2005
                        Phlip <phlip2005@...> writes:

                        > On UEdit, when you type off the end of a window, the caret would
                        > scroll to the center of the window. This is the correct behavior, and
                        > I never saw any editor since use it.

                        XEmacs does this, and I presume emacs does too.

                        Anthony
                        --
                        Anthony Williams
                        Software Developer
                        Just Software Solutions Ltd
                        http://www.justsoftwaresolutions.co.uk
                      • Desilets, Alain
                        ... XEmacs does this, and I presume emacs does too. -- Alain: Yes it does, and I HATE it (eventhough I have been using Emacs for 12 years). Whenever the screen
                        Message 11 of 22 , Dec 16, 2005
                          > On UEdit, when you type off the end of a window, the caret would
                          > scroll to the center of the window. This is the correct behavior, and
                          > I never saw any editor since use it.

                          XEmacs does this, and I presume emacs does too.

                          -- Alain:
                          Yes it does, and I HATE it (eventhough I have been using Emacs for 12
                          years). Whenever the screen jumps like that, I completely loose my sense
                          of where I am within the buffer.
                          ----
                        • Anthony Williams
                          ... Interesting. I never really noticed until I read Phlip s message, despite the fact that I use XEmacs all the time (including writing this email). But then,
                          Message 12 of 22 , Dec 16, 2005
                            "Desilets, Alain" <alain.desilets@...> writes:

                            >> On UEdit, when you type off the end of a window, the caret would
                            >> scroll to the center of the window. This is the correct behavior, and
                            >> I never saw any editor since use it.
                            >
                            > XEmacs does this, and I presume emacs does too.
                            >
                            > -- Alain:
                            > Yes it does, and I HATE it (eventhough I have been using Emacs for 12
                            > years). Whenever the screen jumps like that, I completely loose my sense
                            > of where I am within the buffer.
                            > ----

                            Interesting. I never really noticed until I read Phlip's message, despite the
                            fact that I use XEmacs all the time (including writing this email). But then,
                            I'm particularly good at keeping my place when the text moves --- I can read
                            whilst scrolling the buffer at a reasonable pace (e.g. when hunting through
                            a long list of search results for something relevant).

                            I can see the benefit of not having the text jump around whilst you're
                            working, but if it doesn't, then the cursor is almost always at the bottom of
                            the window, which strikes me as less than ideal.

                            Anthony
                            --
                            Anthony Williams
                            Software Developer
                            Just Software Solutions Ltd
                            http://www.justsoftwaresolutions.co.uk
                          • Desilets, Alain
                            Interesting. I never really noticed until I read Phlip s message, despite the fact that I use XEmacs all the time (including writing this email). But then, I m
                            Message 13 of 22 , Dec 16, 2005
                              Interesting. I never really noticed until I read Phlip's message,
                              despite the fact that I use XEmacs all the time (including writing this
                              email). But then, I'm particularly good at keeping my place when the
                              text moves --- I can read whilst scrolling the buffer at a reasonable
                              pace (e.g. when hunting through a long list of search results for
                              something relevant).

                              -- Alain:
                              I'm a very spatially challenged person. I get lost rapidly when my
                              environment keeps changing dynamically.
                              ----
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