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RE: [agile-usability] follow the leader

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  • Damhuis Anton
    Hi I just tried this *bug*, and had no problem editing the text with the and features, you described as a bug. I am using Excel version 9
    Message 1 of 22 , Nov 3, 2005
      Hi

      I just tried this *bug*, and had no problem editing the text with the <left> and <ctlr><left> features, you described as a bug.
      I am using Excel version 9 SP3, so is it not maybe a setting somewhere in Excel?

      Regards
      Anton


      -----Original Message-----
      From: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
      [mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Phlip
      Sent: 04 November 2005 01:07
      To: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [agile-usability] follow the leader
      ....
      When I type a mistake, I may catch it several words later. The most
      efficient way to move the text caret back to the mistake is either
      <Left> or <Ctrl+Left>. It's not <Backspace>, because I'm proficient.
      I'm smart enough not to need to type all that text again just to edit
      a mistake.

      Confidentiality Warning
      =======================

      The contents of this e-mail and any accompanying documentation
      are confidential and any use thereof, in what ever form, by anyone
      other than the addressee is strictly prohibited.
    • Desilets, Alain
      IMO that s not a free lunch at all because it requires me to switch between modes. Alain ... From: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
      Message 2 of 22 , Nov 4, 2005
        IMO that's not a free lunch at all because it requires me to switch
        between modes.

        Alain

        -----Original Message-----
        From: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
        [mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Josh Seiden
        Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005 9:22 AM
        To: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [agile-usability] follow the leader


        Press F2 for your free lunch!

        It moves the insertion point from the cell to the
        formula bar, and standard editing conventions will now
        apply.

        JS



        --- "Desilets, Alain" <alain.desilets@...>
        wrote:

        > I suspect this is a typical "no free lunch"
        > situation.





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      • Phlip
        ... Just last night I wrote yyyy-Mmm-dd format on a check. It would have been nicer if I had followed that other standard, and wrote it in the date field
        Message 3 of 22 , Nov 4, 2005
          Ash Donaldson wrote:

          > Actually, standards aren't meant to be broken, or they very quickly become
          > non-standards. It must be remembered that a standard is only as powerful as
          > the percentage of the population that follows it. Take for instance the ISO
          > date format. It's the most logical (and therefore, apparently usable for
          > new users) format, both for numeric ordering and consistency. It's of the
          > form yyyy-mm-dd. The majority of the world follows the reverse of this
          > standard with dd-mm-yyyy, while the US somehow cam up with mm-dd-yyyy (?!?).
          > So how effective is the ISO standard? It's completely ineffective, even
          > though it's the most logical format, because the majority of the world does
          > not follow it.

          Just last night I wrote yyyy-Mmm-dd format on a check.

          It would have been nicer if I had followed that other standard, and
          wrote it in the date field instead of the amount field...

          In the case of Excel, CUA already has the majority following. So
          breaking the CUA, in one little mode, is very disruptive.

          The topic I had hoped to raise is simple: If a market leader enforces
          a bad usability decision, and the majority of the world follows it,
          the market upstarts have the odious choice of either following the bad
          lead, or breaking with tradition and risk looking bad.

          How was this week's ZeekLand, everyone? ;-)

          --
          Phlip
          http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!
        • Josh Seiden
          I do a talk called Violate Standards! in which I encourage designers to see these kind of de facto design standards as opportunities for innovation. The
          Message 4 of 22 , Nov 4, 2005
            I do a talk called "Violate Standards!" in which I
            encourage designers to see these kind of de facto
            "design standards" as opportunities for innovation.
            The argument is this: where there is a standard answer
            design answer, there is also likely an opportunity to
            create a better solution.

            The canonical example of this kind of critical
            thinking is the error dialog. Designers should see
            error dialogs--the standard way to present errors--as
            an opportunity to design error-prevention systems into
            the app, thus obviating the need for the standard
            solution, and improving the user experience.

            Of course, this works only as a thinking exercise, not
            as a fundamental design strategy.

            If anyone is interested in the slides, let me know.

            JS
            --- Phlip <phlip2005@...> wrote:


            > The topic I had hoped to raise is simple: If a
            > market leader enforces
            > a bad usability decision, and the majority of the
            > world follows it,
            > the market upstarts have the odious choice of either
            > following the bad
            > lead, or breaking with tradition and risk looking
            > bad.
          • Phlip
            ... The best editor I ever used was non-CUA. Rick Stiles s UEdit, for AmigaDOS, had a usability envelop architected from scratch, with no underlying GUI to
            Message 5 of 22 , Nov 4, 2005
              Josh Seiden wrote:

              > Of course, this works only as a thinking exercise, not
              > as a fundamental design strategy.

              The best editor I ever used was non-CUA. Rick Stiles's UEdit, for
              AmigaDOS, had a usability envelop architected from scratch, with no
              underlying GUI to introduce any systems. Rick simply took over an
              Amiga screen and blitted text all over it.

              The usability achieved the minimum keystrokes between any two points I
              have ever seen. For example, UEdit's scripting language defined
              BeginningOfWord as before the first character, and EndOfWord as after
              the last. So the <Left> arrow mapped trivially onto BeginningOfWord,
              and <Right> onto EndOfWord.

              Yes, that's right. <Left> did not move the caret left over one
              character. It would jump a whole word, and put the character right at
              its beginning. Right would jump to the end of a word, and put the
              character between it and any punctuation.

              When you edit, this is where you most likely want to go. If you then
              fine-tune your position, you use <Shift+Left> to move over one
              character.

              Incidentally, UEdit's scripting language built jargon like
              "<Shift+Left>" directly into its keywords.

              So on CUA, I would <Ctrl+Left> more often than <Left> even if I
              weren't a sloppy typist. The wrong action is the default, and the
              barrier to fixing this is much higher _because_ CUA is a "standard".

              There are easier places to start. For example, on any CUA editor if
              you type off the end of a window, the editor will scroll up one line,
              and leave your caret scrambling against the bottom edge of the window.
              You must scroll to put the caret at eye level, and to see any text
              below the caret.

              On UEdit, when you type off the end of a window, the caret would
              scroll to the center of the window. This is the correct behavior, and
              I never saw any editor since use it.

              It should be really easy to add.

              --
              Phlip
              http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!
            • Desilets, Alain
              -- Phlip wrote: The best editor I ever used was non-CUA. Rick Stiles s UEdit, for AmigaDOS, had a usability envelop architected from scratch, with no
              Message 6 of 22 , Nov 4, 2005
                -- Phlip wrote:
                The best editor I ever used was non-CUA. Rick Stiles's UEdit, for
                AmigaDOS, had a usability envelop architected from scratch, with no
                underlying GUI to introduce any systems. Rick simply took over an Amiga
                screen and blitted text all over it.

                <SNIP>

                The usability achieved the minimum keystrokes between any two points I
                have ever seen. For example, UEdit's scripting language defined
                BeginningOfWord as before the first character, and EndOfWord as after
                the last. So the <Left> arrow mapped trivially onto BeginningOfWord, and
                <Right> onto EndOfWord.

                Yes, that's right. <Left> did not move the caret left over one
                character. It would jump a whole word, and put the character right at
                its beginning. Right would jump to the end of a word, and put the
                character between it and any punctuation.

                When you edit, this is where you most likely want to go. If you then
                fine-tune your position, you use <Shift+Left> to move over one
                character.

                <SNIP>

                So on CUA, I would <Ctrl+Left> more often than <Left> even if I weren't
                a sloppy typist. The wrong action is the default, and the barrier to
                fixing this is much higher _because_ CUA is a "standard".
                ----

                -- Alain:
                It's interesting that you would write this. What you are describing
                above is in all respects equivalent to MS Excel defining <Left> as
                meaning "move to the previous cell". In a spreadsheet context, moving
                from one cell to an adjacent cell is more frequent than moving from one
                character to an adjacent one. Yet, while you loved the fact that Uedit
                assigned word navigation to the <Left> key, you hate the fact that Excel
                assigns cell navigation to the <Left> key. OK, Excel does not even have
                a separate key sequences (ex: <Ctr>+<Left>) for moving to the previous
                character, but I gather that your annoyance was caused by the fact that
                Excel overrode the standard meaning of <Left>.

                So there must be something else that bothers you about the way MS Excel
                supports cell vs character navigation with arrow keys. What is it?
                ----
              • Ignacio Facello
                I haven t used Excel much, but I remember having the opposite problem -- I am editing a cell, and left-right moves the caret in the text. How do I go to the
                Message 7 of 22 , Nov 4, 2005
                  I haven't used Excel much, but I remember having the opposite problem -- I am
                  editing a cell, and left-right moves the caret in the text. How do I go to the
                  previous cell?
                  And also, I had the problem the OP described. It all depended on what I was
                  doing, which was frustrating. I think Excel should behave the same no matter
                  what you were doing -- whether left moves the caret or changes cell, I wouldn't
                  care, I would get used to it. What bothers me is the different behaviour with no
                  significant visual cue that you are in a different mode.

                  Quoting "Desilets, Alain" <alain.desilets@...>:

                  > -- Alain:
                  > It's interesting that you would write this. What you are describing
                  > above is in all respects equivalent to MS Excel defining <Left> as
                  > meaning "move to the previous cell". In a spreadsheet context, moving
                  > from one cell to an adjacent cell is more frequent than moving from one
                  > character to an adjacent one. Yet, while you loved the fact that Uedit
                  > assigned word navigation to the <Left> key, you hate the fact that Excel
                  > assigns cell navigation to the <Left> key. OK, Excel does not even have
                  > a separate key sequences (ex: <Ctr>+<Left>) for moving to the previous
                  > character, but I gather that your annoyance was caused by the fact that
                  > Excel overrode the standard meaning of <Left>.
                  >
                  > So there must be something else that bothers you about the way MS Excel
                  > supports cell vs character navigation with arrow keys. What is it?
                  > ----



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                • Jon Kern
                  an upstart *should* offer improvements... including in usability. however, one can also offer up the option: [ ] Behave like the Market leader QuattroPro was
                  Message 8 of 22 , Nov 4, 2005
                    an upstart *should* offer improvements... including in usability.

                    however, one can also offer up the option:
                            [ ] "Behave like the Market leader"

                    QuattroPro was a wonderful departure from Lotus 1-2-3
                    Excel did a wonderful copy of QP (i think)

                    -- jon
                    
                    

                    Phlip said the following on 11/4/2005 11:26 AM:
                    Ash Donaldson wrote:

                    <cut>
                    The topic I had hoped to raise is simple: If a market leader enforces
                    a bad usability decision, and the majority of the world follows it,
                    the market upstarts have the odious choice of either following the bad
                    lead, or breaking with tradition and risk looking bad.

                    How was this week's ZeekLand, everyone? ;-)

                    --
                      Phlip
                      http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand  <-- NOT a blog!!
                  • Phlip
                    ... Now there s an example of slick usability that did everything _wrong_ by todays standards. Everyone nowadays does Object- Action. First you select the
                    Message 9 of 22 , Nov 4, 2005
                      Jon Kern wrote:

                      > Lotus 1-2-3

                      Now there's an example of slick usability that did everything _wrong_
                      by todays standards.

                      Everyone nowadays does Object->Action. First you select the object,
                      then you pick an action. Example: Select some cells, then Copy them.

                      In Lotus 1-2-3, you declare Copy, and get a Cell Selector Mode to pick
                      the cells to copy.

                      So the amazing thing was this got useful and intuitive, after you
                      start using it.

                      --
                      Phlip
                      http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!
                    • Phlip
                      ... It s because Microsoft invented it! Snarl! Drool! Drool! (Uh, the principle of least surprise might also apply...) -- Phlip
                      Message 10 of 22 , Nov 4, 2005
                        Desilets, Alain wrote:

                        > So there must be something else that bothers you about the way MS Excel
                        > supports cell vs character navigation with arrow keys. What is it?

                        It's because Microsoft invented it! Snarl! Drool! Drool!

                        (Uh, the principle of least surprise might also apply...)

                        --
                        Phlip
                        http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!
                      • Phlip
                        ... The CUA sez it should be . ... Arrow to a cell and start typing alpha without . You are still in arrow among cells mode , not text edit
                        Message 11 of 22 , Nov 4, 2005
                          Ignacio Facello wrote:


                          > I haven't used Excel much, but I remember having the opposite problem
                          > -- I am
                          > editing a cell, and left-right moves the caret in the text. How do I go to the
                          > previous cell?

                          The CUA sez it should be <Shift+Tab>.

                          > And also, I had the problem the OP described. It all depended on what I was
                          > doing, which was frustrating.

                          Arrow to a cell and start typing alpha without <F2>. You are still in
                          "arrow among cells mode", not "text edit mode", and the system allows
                          you to enter text essentially as a "convenience".

                          > What bothers me is the different behaviour with no
                          > significant visual cue that you are in a different mode.

                          Not at all. The frame around the cell goes from a focus-style to an
                          edit field frame style.

                          Can't you tell? ;-)

                          --
                          Phlip
                          http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!
                        • Anthony Williams
                          ... XEmacs does this, and I presume emacs does too. Anthony -- Anthony Williams Software Developer Just Software Solutions Ltd
                          Message 12 of 22 , Dec 16, 2005
                            Phlip <phlip2005@...> writes:

                            > On UEdit, when you type off the end of a window, the caret would
                            > scroll to the center of the window. This is the correct behavior, and
                            > I never saw any editor since use it.

                            XEmacs does this, and I presume emacs does too.

                            Anthony
                            --
                            Anthony Williams
                            Software Developer
                            Just Software Solutions Ltd
                            http://www.justsoftwaresolutions.co.uk
                          • Desilets, Alain
                            ... XEmacs does this, and I presume emacs does too. -- Alain: Yes it does, and I HATE it (eventhough I have been using Emacs for 12 years). Whenever the screen
                            Message 13 of 22 , Dec 16, 2005
                              > On UEdit, when you type off the end of a window, the caret would
                              > scroll to the center of the window. This is the correct behavior, and
                              > I never saw any editor since use it.

                              XEmacs does this, and I presume emacs does too.

                              -- Alain:
                              Yes it does, and I HATE it (eventhough I have been using Emacs for 12
                              years). Whenever the screen jumps like that, I completely loose my sense
                              of where I am within the buffer.
                              ----
                            • Anthony Williams
                              ... Interesting. I never really noticed until I read Phlip s message, despite the fact that I use XEmacs all the time (including writing this email). But then,
                              Message 14 of 22 , Dec 16, 2005
                                "Desilets, Alain" <alain.desilets@...> writes:

                                >> On UEdit, when you type off the end of a window, the caret would
                                >> scroll to the center of the window. This is the correct behavior, and
                                >> I never saw any editor since use it.
                                >
                                > XEmacs does this, and I presume emacs does too.
                                >
                                > -- Alain:
                                > Yes it does, and I HATE it (eventhough I have been using Emacs for 12
                                > years). Whenever the screen jumps like that, I completely loose my sense
                                > of where I am within the buffer.
                                > ----

                                Interesting. I never really noticed until I read Phlip's message, despite the
                                fact that I use XEmacs all the time (including writing this email). But then,
                                I'm particularly good at keeping my place when the text moves --- I can read
                                whilst scrolling the buffer at a reasonable pace (e.g. when hunting through
                                a long list of search results for something relevant).

                                I can see the benefit of not having the text jump around whilst you're
                                working, but if it doesn't, then the cursor is almost always at the bottom of
                                the window, which strikes me as less than ideal.

                                Anthony
                                --
                                Anthony Williams
                                Software Developer
                                Just Software Solutions Ltd
                                http://www.justsoftwaresolutions.co.uk
                              • Desilets, Alain
                                Interesting. I never really noticed until I read Phlip s message, despite the fact that I use XEmacs all the time (including writing this email). But then, I m
                                Message 15 of 22 , Dec 16, 2005
                                  Interesting. I never really noticed until I read Phlip's message,
                                  despite the fact that I use XEmacs all the time (including writing this
                                  email). But then, I'm particularly good at keeping my place when the
                                  text moves --- I can read whilst scrolling the buffer at a reasonable
                                  pace (e.g. when hunting through a long list of search results for
                                  something relevant).

                                  -- Alain:
                                  I'm a very spatially challenged person. I get lost rapidly when my
                                  environment keeps changing dynamically.
                                  ----
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