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RE: [agile-usability] follow the leader

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  • Keith Nicholas
    so its less usable for you, are you implying its less useful for everyone? I personally find it quite useful I can enter text and arrow to the place I want to
    Message 1 of 22 , Nov 3, 2005
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      so its less usable for you, are you implying its less useful for everyone?  I personally find it quite useful I can enter text and arrow to the place I want to enter text next.  Which for me is the most common case...the times where I need to correct the text are much less frequent.  Then I usually just go to the edit box at the top and use the left arrow, cntrl arrow navigation system for text, but for cells, the arrow navigation to move around seems more natural to me.
       
      So, while your flaming Microsoft, do you know that they didn't study this and found which was more usable?
       
      Regards,
       
      Keith
       


      From: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com [mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Phlip
      Sent: Friday, 4 November 2005 12:07 p.m.
      To: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [agile-usability] follow the leader

      AU:

      Because I'm proficient at using GUIs with a keyboard, and I'm a sloppy
      typist, Excel has a committed "feature" that drives me nuts.

      When I type into a cell, I'm not really in edit-mode. I'm in some kind
      of "add text" mode. We all know that GUI "modes" are bad. <F2>
      switches to real edit mode.

      When I type a mistake, I may catch it several words later. The most
      efficient way to move the text caret back to the mistake is either
      <Left> or <Ctrl+Left>. It's not <Backspace>, because I'm proficient.
      I'm smart enough not to need to type all that text again just to edit
      a mistake.

      However, Excel interprets the <Left> as "move focus to cell in
      previous column". Worse, <Ctrl+Left> becomes "move focus to first
      column".

      It's bad enough that Microsoft's vaunted usability labs have
      disadvantaged my proficiency so deeply. But then MS corrupts youths
      and upstarts.

      I never could figure out how to get rid of the count-down meter in MS
      Office (yes, we paid for it). So I downloaded OpenOffice, and I use it
      instead for all the light spreadsheeting I need.

      Because MS is the leader, OpenOffice faithfully reproduces all of
      Excel's features, and it reproduces the <Left> bug.

      Each time it bites me, I remember that it's MS's bug, not
      OpenOffice's, and I remember that OpenOffice is too submissive to go
      beyond MS's usability, and excel.

      --
        Phlip
        http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand  <-- NOT a blog!!
    • Phlip
      ... We are discussing a standard, the Common User Access, which predates MS Windows (and the MS oligarchy). I don t think I flamed either of them. The stated
      Message 2 of 22 , Nov 3, 2005
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        Keith Nicholas wrote:

        > so its less usable for you, are you implying its less useful for everyone?
        > I personally find it quite useful I can enter text and arrow to the place I
        > want to enter text next. Which for me is the most common case...the times
        > where I need to correct the text are much less frequent. Then I usually
        > just go to the edit box at the top and use the left arrow, cntrl arrow
        > navigation system for text, but for cells, the arrow navigation to move
        > around seems more natural to me.
        >
        > So, while your flaming Microsoft, do you know that they didn't study this
        > and found which was more usable?

        We are discussing a standard, the Common User Access, which predates
        MS Windows (and the MS oligarchy). I don't think I flamed either of
        them.

        The stated purpose of the CUA is to make all windows on a desktop fit
        together as a seamless coherent whole. Gone (hopefully) are the days
        where only one program inserts text only as a special mode, and
        defaults to overstriking, for example.

        The CUA permits you to feel like your editing functions are a part of
        your hands, not a part of the current application, or its specific
        mode. This permits you to safely learn advanced edits (such as
        <Ctrl+Left>) in one application and safely port your learning to
        another.

        To quote Larry Tesler, don't mode me in.

        --
        Phlip
        http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!
      • Damhuis Anton
        Hi I just tried this *bug*, and had no problem editing the text with the and features, you described as a bug. I am using Excel version 9
        Message 3 of 22 , Nov 3, 2005
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          Hi

          I just tried this *bug*, and had no problem editing the text with the <left> and <ctlr><left> features, you described as a bug.
          I am using Excel version 9 SP3, so is it not maybe a setting somewhere in Excel?

          Regards
          Anton


          -----Original Message-----
          From: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
          [mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Phlip
          Sent: 04 November 2005 01:07
          To: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [agile-usability] follow the leader
          ....
          When I type a mistake, I may catch it several words later. The most
          efficient way to move the text caret back to the mistake is either
          <Left> or <Ctrl+Left>. It's not <Backspace>, because I'm proficient.
          I'm smart enough not to need to type all that text again just to edit
          a mistake.

          Confidentiality Warning
          =======================

          The contents of this e-mail and any accompanying documentation
          are confidential and any use thereof, in what ever form, by anyone
          other than the addressee is strictly prohibited.
        • Desilets, Alain
          so its less usable for you, are you implying its less useful for everyone? I personally find it quite useful I can enter text and arrow to the place I want to
          Message 4 of 22 , Nov 4, 2005
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            Message
            so its less usable for you, are you implying its less useful for everyone?  I personally find it quite useful I can enter text and arrow to the place I want to enter text next.  Which for me is the most common case...the times where I need to correct the text are much less frequent.  Then I usually just go to the edit box at the top and use the left arrow, cntrl arrow navigation system for text, but for cells, the arrow navigation to move around seems more natural to me.
            So, while your flaming Microsoft, do you know that they didn't study this and found which was more usable?
             
            Regards, 
             
            -- Alain:
            I agree. I too rarely write long text inside of cells, but I very often need to write a series of numbers or short strings in adjacent cells. And <Left> and <Right> is the most natural way for me to do this.
             
            I suspect this is a typical "no free lunch" situation. I bet when someone presses <Left> in excel, the same person will somethimes expect it to move to the previous character in the current cell, and sometimes they willl expect it to move to the previous cell. Moreover, I am willing to bet that the only thing that distinguishes these two situations is the intent buried inside the user's mind. In other words, there is nothing at all in the current system state or the history of recent actions by the user, that would allow the system to figure out what the user means.
             
            So you have to choose one or the other. MS decided to go for <Left> = previous cell, and that turns out to be the right choice for me. I don't know about the majority of people, but as Keith points out, it COULD be that MS did some usability studies and found that this was the most common .
            ----
          • Desilets, Alain
            The CUA permits you to feel like your editing functions are a part of your hands, not a part of the current application, or its specific mode. This permits you
            Message 5 of 22 , Nov 4, 2005
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              The CUA permits you to feel like your editing functions are a part of
              your hands, not a part of the current application, or its specific mode.
              This permits you to safely learn advanced edits (such as
              <Ctrl+Left>) in one application and safely port your learning to
              another.

              -- Alain:
              Standards and rules are made to be broken. Again, I don't know whether
              or not MS did usability testing on this, but it certainly seem to be the
              most usable thing for me, irrespectively of the fact that it is
              non-standard behaviour.

              Surely you are not saying that knowlege encoded in generic UI standards
              should take precedence over application specific knowledge that was
              acuiqired through usability testing for that specific application!
              -----
            • Josh Seiden
              Press F2 for your free lunch! It moves the insertion point from the cell to the formula bar, and standard editing conventions will now apply. JS
              Message 6 of 22 , Nov 4, 2005
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                Press F2 for your free lunch!

                It moves the insertion point from the cell to the
                formula bar, and standard editing conventions will now
                apply.

                JS



                --- "Desilets, Alain" <alain.desilets@...>
                wrote:

                > I suspect this is a typical "no free lunch"
                > situation.
              • Ash Donaldson
                On 5/11/05 12:44 AM, Desilets, Alain ... Actually, standards aren¹t meant to be broken, or they very quickly become
                Message 7 of 22 , Nov 4, 2005
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                  Re: [agile-usability] follow the leader On 5/11/05 12:44 AM, "Desilets, Alain" <alain.desilets@...> wrote:
                  -- Alain:
                  Standards and rules are made to be broken. Again, I don't know whether
                  or not MS did usability testing on this, but it certainly seem to be the
                  most usable thing for me, irrespectively of the fact that it is
                  non-standard behaviour.

                  Surely you are not saying that knowlege encoded in generic UI standards
                  should take precedence over application specific knowledge that was
                  acuiqired through usability testing for that specific application!
                  -----

                  Actually, standards aren’t meant to be broken, or they very quickly become non-standards.  It must be remembered that a standard is only as powerful as the percentage of the population that follows it.  Take for instance the ISO date format.  It’s the most logical (and therefore, apparently usable for new users) format, both for numeric ordering and consistency.  It’s of the form yyyy-mm-dd.  The majority of the world follows the reverse of this standard with dd-mm-yyyy, while the US somehow cam up with mm-dd-yyyy (?!?).  So how effective is the ISO standard?  It’s completely ineffective, even though it’s the most logical format, because the majority of the world does not follow it.

                  Another point to consider is the type of usability testing involved.  As far as I’m aware, Microsoft caters for incomprehensibly large and diverse user populations, using different groups and factions to generate requirements and test functionality (in lab settings) and so tries to squeeze every possible feature in to account for every edge case.  The more popular functions, then, may go in the direction for any of the user populations identified.  Therefore, for a company that creates such highly generic software, standards (be they published or population stereotypes, as long as they carry a critical mass) should be sacrosanct and serve as the basis on which they could build more usable applications (because it’s more usable if it meets the user’s expectations i.e. Follows a standard convention that they are used to).

                  Cheers,

                  Ash Donaldson
                  OZCHI 2005 Conference Chair
                  chair@...

                  OZCHI 2005
                  Citizens Online: Considerations for today & the future
                  www.ozchi.org


                • Desilets, Alain
                  IMO that s not a free lunch at all because it requires me to switch between modes. Alain ... From: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
                  Message 8 of 22 , Nov 4, 2005
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                    IMO that's not a free lunch at all because it requires me to switch
                    between modes.

                    Alain

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
                    [mailto:agile-usability@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Josh Seiden
                    Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005 9:22 AM
                    To: agile-usability@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [agile-usability] follow the leader


                    Press F2 for your free lunch!

                    It moves the insertion point from the cell to the
                    formula bar, and standard editing conventions will now
                    apply.

                    JS



                    --- "Desilets, Alain" <alain.desilets@...>
                    wrote:

                    > I suspect this is a typical "no free lunch"
                    > situation.





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                  • Phlip
                    ... Just last night I wrote yyyy-Mmm-dd format on a check. It would have been nicer if I had followed that other standard, and wrote it in the date field
                    Message 9 of 22 , Nov 4, 2005
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                      Ash Donaldson wrote:

                      > Actually, standards aren't meant to be broken, or they very quickly become
                      > non-standards. It must be remembered that a standard is only as powerful as
                      > the percentage of the population that follows it. Take for instance the ISO
                      > date format. It's the most logical (and therefore, apparently usable for
                      > new users) format, both for numeric ordering and consistency. It's of the
                      > form yyyy-mm-dd. The majority of the world follows the reverse of this
                      > standard with dd-mm-yyyy, while the US somehow cam up with mm-dd-yyyy (?!?).
                      > So how effective is the ISO standard? It's completely ineffective, even
                      > though it's the most logical format, because the majority of the world does
                      > not follow it.

                      Just last night I wrote yyyy-Mmm-dd format on a check.

                      It would have been nicer if I had followed that other standard, and
                      wrote it in the date field instead of the amount field...

                      In the case of Excel, CUA already has the majority following. So
                      breaking the CUA, in one little mode, is very disruptive.

                      The topic I had hoped to raise is simple: If a market leader enforces
                      a bad usability decision, and the majority of the world follows it,
                      the market upstarts have the odious choice of either following the bad
                      lead, or breaking with tradition and risk looking bad.

                      How was this week's ZeekLand, everyone? ;-)

                      --
                      Phlip
                      http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!
                    • Josh Seiden
                      I do a talk called Violate Standards! in which I encourage designers to see these kind of de facto design standards as opportunities for innovation. The
                      Message 10 of 22 , Nov 4, 2005
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                        I do a talk called "Violate Standards!" in which I
                        encourage designers to see these kind of de facto
                        "design standards" as opportunities for innovation.
                        The argument is this: where there is a standard answer
                        design answer, there is also likely an opportunity to
                        create a better solution.

                        The canonical example of this kind of critical
                        thinking is the error dialog. Designers should see
                        error dialogs--the standard way to present errors--as
                        an opportunity to design error-prevention systems into
                        the app, thus obviating the need for the standard
                        solution, and improving the user experience.

                        Of course, this works only as a thinking exercise, not
                        as a fundamental design strategy.

                        If anyone is interested in the slides, let me know.

                        JS
                        --- Phlip <phlip2005@...> wrote:


                        > The topic I had hoped to raise is simple: If a
                        > market leader enforces
                        > a bad usability decision, and the majority of the
                        > world follows it,
                        > the market upstarts have the odious choice of either
                        > following the bad
                        > lead, or breaking with tradition and risk looking
                        > bad.
                      • Phlip
                        ... The best editor I ever used was non-CUA. Rick Stiles s UEdit, for AmigaDOS, had a usability envelop architected from scratch, with no underlying GUI to
                        Message 11 of 22 , Nov 4, 2005
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                          Josh Seiden wrote:

                          > Of course, this works only as a thinking exercise, not
                          > as a fundamental design strategy.

                          The best editor I ever used was non-CUA. Rick Stiles's UEdit, for
                          AmigaDOS, had a usability envelop architected from scratch, with no
                          underlying GUI to introduce any systems. Rick simply took over an
                          Amiga screen and blitted text all over it.

                          The usability achieved the minimum keystrokes between any two points I
                          have ever seen. For example, UEdit's scripting language defined
                          BeginningOfWord as before the first character, and EndOfWord as after
                          the last. So the <Left> arrow mapped trivially onto BeginningOfWord,
                          and <Right> onto EndOfWord.

                          Yes, that's right. <Left> did not move the caret left over one
                          character. It would jump a whole word, and put the character right at
                          its beginning. Right would jump to the end of a word, and put the
                          character between it and any punctuation.

                          When you edit, this is where you most likely want to go. If you then
                          fine-tune your position, you use <Shift+Left> to move over one
                          character.

                          Incidentally, UEdit's scripting language built jargon like
                          "<Shift+Left>" directly into its keywords.

                          So on CUA, I would <Ctrl+Left> more often than <Left> even if I
                          weren't a sloppy typist. The wrong action is the default, and the
                          barrier to fixing this is much higher _because_ CUA is a "standard".

                          There are easier places to start. For example, on any CUA editor if
                          you type off the end of a window, the editor will scroll up one line,
                          and leave your caret scrambling against the bottom edge of the window.
                          You must scroll to put the caret at eye level, and to see any text
                          below the caret.

                          On UEdit, when you type off the end of a window, the caret would
                          scroll to the center of the window. This is the correct behavior, and
                          I never saw any editor since use it.

                          It should be really easy to add.

                          --
                          Phlip
                          http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!
                        • Desilets, Alain
                          -- Phlip wrote: The best editor I ever used was non-CUA. Rick Stiles s UEdit, for AmigaDOS, had a usability envelop architected from scratch, with no
                          Message 12 of 22 , Nov 4, 2005
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                            -- Phlip wrote:
                            The best editor I ever used was non-CUA. Rick Stiles's UEdit, for
                            AmigaDOS, had a usability envelop architected from scratch, with no
                            underlying GUI to introduce any systems. Rick simply took over an Amiga
                            screen and blitted text all over it.

                            <SNIP>

                            The usability achieved the minimum keystrokes between any two points I
                            have ever seen. For example, UEdit's scripting language defined
                            BeginningOfWord as before the first character, and EndOfWord as after
                            the last. So the <Left> arrow mapped trivially onto BeginningOfWord, and
                            <Right> onto EndOfWord.

                            Yes, that's right. <Left> did not move the caret left over one
                            character. It would jump a whole word, and put the character right at
                            its beginning. Right would jump to the end of a word, and put the
                            character between it and any punctuation.

                            When you edit, this is where you most likely want to go. If you then
                            fine-tune your position, you use <Shift+Left> to move over one
                            character.

                            <SNIP>

                            So on CUA, I would <Ctrl+Left> more often than <Left> even if I weren't
                            a sloppy typist. The wrong action is the default, and the barrier to
                            fixing this is much higher _because_ CUA is a "standard".
                            ----

                            -- Alain:
                            It's interesting that you would write this. What you are describing
                            above is in all respects equivalent to MS Excel defining <Left> as
                            meaning "move to the previous cell". In a spreadsheet context, moving
                            from one cell to an adjacent cell is more frequent than moving from one
                            character to an adjacent one. Yet, while you loved the fact that Uedit
                            assigned word navigation to the <Left> key, you hate the fact that Excel
                            assigns cell navigation to the <Left> key. OK, Excel does not even have
                            a separate key sequences (ex: <Ctr>+<Left>) for moving to the previous
                            character, but I gather that your annoyance was caused by the fact that
                            Excel overrode the standard meaning of <Left>.

                            So there must be something else that bothers you about the way MS Excel
                            supports cell vs character navigation with arrow keys. What is it?
                            ----
                          • Ignacio Facello
                            I haven t used Excel much, but I remember having the opposite problem -- I am editing a cell, and left-right moves the caret in the text. How do I go to the
                            Message 13 of 22 , Nov 4, 2005
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                              I haven't used Excel much, but I remember having the opposite problem -- I am
                              editing a cell, and left-right moves the caret in the text. How do I go to the
                              previous cell?
                              And also, I had the problem the OP described. It all depended on what I was
                              doing, which was frustrating. I think Excel should behave the same no matter
                              what you were doing -- whether left moves the caret or changes cell, I wouldn't
                              care, I would get used to it. What bothers me is the different behaviour with no
                              significant visual cue that you are in a different mode.

                              Quoting "Desilets, Alain" <alain.desilets@...>:

                              > -- Alain:
                              > It's interesting that you would write this. What you are describing
                              > above is in all respects equivalent to MS Excel defining <Left> as
                              > meaning "move to the previous cell". In a spreadsheet context, moving
                              > from one cell to an adjacent cell is more frequent than moving from one
                              > character to an adjacent one. Yet, while you loved the fact that Uedit
                              > assigned word navigation to the <Left> key, you hate the fact that Excel
                              > assigns cell navigation to the <Left> key. OK, Excel does not even have
                              > a separate key sequences (ex: <Ctr>+<Left>) for moving to the previous
                              > character, but I gather that your annoyance was caused by the fact that
                              > Excel overrode the standard meaning of <Left>.
                              >
                              > So there must be something else that bothers you about the way MS Excel
                              > supports cell vs character navigation with arrow keys. What is it?
                              > ----



                              Internet Banda Ancha Todo el Dia desde $u 490 por mes!
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                            • Jon Kern
                              an upstart *should* offer improvements... including in usability. however, one can also offer up the option: [ ] Behave like the Market leader QuattroPro was
                              Message 14 of 22 , Nov 4, 2005
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                                an upstart *should* offer improvements... including in usability.

                                however, one can also offer up the option:
                                        [ ] "Behave like the Market leader"

                                QuattroPro was a wonderful departure from Lotus 1-2-3
                                Excel did a wonderful copy of QP (i think)

                                -- jon
                                
                                

                                Phlip said the following on 11/4/2005 11:26 AM:
                                Ash Donaldson wrote:

                                <cut>
                                The topic I had hoped to raise is simple: If a market leader enforces
                                a bad usability decision, and the majority of the world follows it,
                                the market upstarts have the odious choice of either following the bad
                                lead, or breaking with tradition and risk looking bad.

                                How was this week's ZeekLand, everyone? ;-)

                                --
                                  Phlip
                                  http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand  <-- NOT a blog!!
                              • Phlip
                                ... Now there s an example of slick usability that did everything _wrong_ by todays standards. Everyone nowadays does Object- Action. First you select the
                                Message 15 of 22 , Nov 4, 2005
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                                  Jon Kern wrote:

                                  > Lotus 1-2-3

                                  Now there's an example of slick usability that did everything _wrong_
                                  by todays standards.

                                  Everyone nowadays does Object->Action. First you select the object,
                                  then you pick an action. Example: Select some cells, then Copy them.

                                  In Lotus 1-2-3, you declare Copy, and get a Cell Selector Mode to pick
                                  the cells to copy.

                                  So the amazing thing was this got useful and intuitive, after you
                                  start using it.

                                  --
                                  Phlip
                                  http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!
                                • Phlip
                                  ... It s because Microsoft invented it! Snarl! Drool! Drool! (Uh, the principle of least surprise might also apply...) -- Phlip
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Nov 4, 2005
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                                    Desilets, Alain wrote:

                                    > So there must be something else that bothers you about the way MS Excel
                                    > supports cell vs character navigation with arrow keys. What is it?

                                    It's because Microsoft invented it! Snarl! Drool! Drool!

                                    (Uh, the principle of least surprise might also apply...)

                                    --
                                    Phlip
                                    http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!
                                  • Phlip
                                    ... The CUA sez it should be . ... Arrow to a cell and start typing alpha without . You are still in arrow among cells mode , not text edit
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Nov 4, 2005
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                                      Ignacio Facello wrote:


                                      > I haven't used Excel much, but I remember having the opposite problem
                                      > -- I am
                                      > editing a cell, and left-right moves the caret in the text. How do I go to the
                                      > previous cell?

                                      The CUA sez it should be <Shift+Tab>.

                                      > And also, I had the problem the OP described. It all depended on what I was
                                      > doing, which was frustrating.

                                      Arrow to a cell and start typing alpha without <F2>. You are still in
                                      "arrow among cells mode", not "text edit mode", and the system allows
                                      you to enter text essentially as a "convenience".

                                      > What bothers me is the different behaviour with no
                                      > significant visual cue that you are in a different mode.

                                      Not at all. The frame around the cell goes from a focus-style to an
                                      edit field frame style.

                                      Can't you tell? ;-)

                                      --
                                      Phlip
                                      http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!
                                    • Anthony Williams
                                      ... XEmacs does this, and I presume emacs does too. Anthony -- Anthony Williams Software Developer Just Software Solutions Ltd
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Dec 16, 2005
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                                        Phlip <phlip2005@...> writes:

                                        > On UEdit, when you type off the end of a window, the caret would
                                        > scroll to the center of the window. This is the correct behavior, and
                                        > I never saw any editor since use it.

                                        XEmacs does this, and I presume emacs does too.

                                        Anthony
                                        --
                                        Anthony Williams
                                        Software Developer
                                        Just Software Solutions Ltd
                                        http://www.justsoftwaresolutions.co.uk
                                      • Desilets, Alain
                                        ... XEmacs does this, and I presume emacs does too. -- Alain: Yes it does, and I HATE it (eventhough I have been using Emacs for 12 years). Whenever the screen
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Dec 16, 2005
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                                          > On UEdit, when you type off the end of a window, the caret would
                                          > scroll to the center of the window. This is the correct behavior, and
                                          > I never saw any editor since use it.

                                          XEmacs does this, and I presume emacs does too.

                                          -- Alain:
                                          Yes it does, and I HATE it (eventhough I have been using Emacs for 12
                                          years). Whenever the screen jumps like that, I completely loose my sense
                                          of where I am within the buffer.
                                          ----
                                        • Anthony Williams
                                          ... Interesting. I never really noticed until I read Phlip s message, despite the fact that I use XEmacs all the time (including writing this email). But then,
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Dec 16, 2005
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                                            "Desilets, Alain" <alain.desilets@...> writes:

                                            >> On UEdit, when you type off the end of a window, the caret would
                                            >> scroll to the center of the window. This is the correct behavior, and
                                            >> I never saw any editor since use it.
                                            >
                                            > XEmacs does this, and I presume emacs does too.
                                            >
                                            > -- Alain:
                                            > Yes it does, and I HATE it (eventhough I have been using Emacs for 12
                                            > years). Whenever the screen jumps like that, I completely loose my sense
                                            > of where I am within the buffer.
                                            > ----

                                            Interesting. I never really noticed until I read Phlip's message, despite the
                                            fact that I use XEmacs all the time (including writing this email). But then,
                                            I'm particularly good at keeping my place when the text moves --- I can read
                                            whilst scrolling the buffer at a reasonable pace (e.g. when hunting through
                                            a long list of search results for something relevant).

                                            I can see the benefit of not having the text jump around whilst you're
                                            working, but if it doesn't, then the cursor is almost always at the bottom of
                                            the window, which strikes me as less than ideal.

                                            Anthony
                                            --
                                            Anthony Williams
                                            Software Developer
                                            Just Software Solutions Ltd
                                            http://www.justsoftwaresolutions.co.uk
                                          • Desilets, Alain
                                            Interesting. I never really noticed until I read Phlip s message, despite the fact that I use XEmacs all the time (including writing this email). But then, I m
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Dec 16, 2005
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                                              Interesting. I never really noticed until I read Phlip's message,
                                              despite the fact that I use XEmacs all the time (including writing this
                                              email). But then, I'm particularly good at keeping my place when the
                                              text moves --- I can read whilst scrolling the buffer at a reasonable
                                              pace (e.g. when hunting through a long list of search results for
                                              something relevant).

                                              -- Alain:
                                              I'm a very spatially challenged person. I get lost rapidly when my
                                              environment keeps changing dynamically.
                                              ----
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