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Re: [agathiyar] Top 10 Kalvettus? (English)

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  • vj kumar
    dear sir I would consider the trichy malaikottai mahendra cave inscription in lalithangura pallava griham to be one of the most important, not only for the
    Message 1 of 17 , Sep 30, 2009
      dear sir


      I would consider the trichy malaikottai mahendra cave inscription in
      lalithangura pallava griham to be one of the most important, not only for
      the fact that it attests to Mahendra converting from a hostile faith back to
      linga worship, but more for the fact that a king was humble enough to say
      that he did change his earlier beliefs. Since it also a poetry of the King
      himself, the beauty of the verse and its complex inner meanings, show his
      scholarly skills.

      Ofourse, next would be the Udayarkudi inscriptions, ( we can never get away
      from ponniyin selvan) listing the names of the assassins of Aditya Karikala.

      The next interesting one is the inscription in the Ramanuja Mandabam in
      mallai, though one of the most completed of caves, all the sculptures have
      been chiseled off - yet this inscription has been left intact. It is a
      clearly Shivaite inscription but why was it left intact when the somaskanda
      in the back has been chissled off ??

      dhiktESAnDhiktESAmpunarapi dhigdhigdhigastu dhiktESAm | yESAnn vasati hRdayE
      kupathagativimOkSakO rudraH
      Six times cursed be those, in whose hearts does not dwell Rudra (Siva), the
      deliverer from the walking on the evil path!

      The same inscription is found in the Atiranachanda mandabam of the tiger
      cave complex as well.


      Will write more, if the group finds these interesting

      rgds
      vj
      http://www.poetryinstone.in
      Here the language of stone surpasses the language of man


      On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 8:17 AM, jaybee555 <jaybee555@...> wrote:

      >
      >
      > Dear Agathiyarians/VJ,
      >
      > Regarding the top 5 or 10 most impactful incriptions, I am eager to know
      > which incriptions you will choose, VJ.
      > I can guess a few.
      > UththiramErUr might be one of them?
      >
      > Honestly I could not judge. Because the yardstick for the impactfulness of
      > the kalvettus vary according to the persons.
      > As I said, the VELvikudi grants are important for proving the existence of
      > Sangam and the Pandya king Pal-yaaga-saalai Mudhu-kudumi Peru-valzudhi. It
      > also throws a light on the Kalabras inter-regnum.
      > The Tanjavur kalvettu of Rajendra proves that the Cholzas were able to
      > vanquish a very powerful, maritime, productive, thallasocratic mega-empire
      > with a naval blitz krieg.
      >
      > But I have seen many kalvettus which revealed some events which affected
      > the history of Tamilnadu.
      >
      > I have mentioned Kilzavan Sethupathi in many of my Agathiyar postings. He
      > was feudatory chief of Sethu Naadu.
      > Sethu naadu is the present Ramanathapuram district. Initially, it was under
      > the Nayakkar kingdom of Madurai.
      >
      > Kilzvan extended its boundaries and created the Pudukkottai state. His
      > descendants created the Sivagangai state.
      >
      > He refused to pay tribute and became a de facto ruler of his state of Sethu
      > naadu. He defeated the forces and killed the general of Rani Mangamma, the
      > Nayakkar queen of Madurai Naadu.
      > Two years ago, a Spanish coin collector sent me a scanned image of a copper
      > coin.
      > It was identified as a coin of Sethu Nadu minted by Kilzavan Sethupathi.
      > Another direct pointer.....
      > I have also mentioned a lot about a certain Siva Temple in Sivapuri in
      > Sivagangai district.
      > This Sivapuri temple has a kalvettu which was issued by the Sethupathi in
      > his own name.
      > A direct proof of the Sethunadu being an independant kingdom by itself.
      > This is the only proper kalvettu belonging to the Sethupathis.
      > The separation of Sethunadu which was of utmost strategic importance
      > unbalanced the very existance of the MaduraiNaadu of the Nayakkars.
      > The future path for Tamilnadu was altered.
      > But this kalvettu is a very rare one.
      > Nobody at present knows even its very existance.
      >
      > Regards
      >
      > JayBee
      >
      > =========================
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Nandakumar Selvaraj
      Dear Sir, Looks like we still do not have epigraphical evidence of inter-caste marriage. My list would look like this: 1. Brahmi inscription of satyaputras
      Message 2 of 17 , Sep 30, 2009
        Dear Sir,

        Looks like we still do not have epigraphical evidence of inter-caste marriage.

        My list would look like this:

        1. Brahmi inscription of satyaputras
        2. Ashokan inscription mentioning kingdoms outside his reign.
        3. Kharavela inscription of defeating the confederacy of tamil kings.
        4. Brahmi inscription in Pillayar patti, denoting that the site was excavated at 2AD & Pillayar himself was present in south india, even before the vatapi invasion.
         


        Regards

        Nanda
        http://jobdealsinfo.ning.com





        ________________________________
        From: jaybee555 <jaybee555@...>
        To: agathiyar@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, 1 October, 2009 5:47:27 AM
        Subject: [agathiyar] Top 10 Kalvettus? (English)

         
        Dear Agathiyarians/ VJ,

        Regarding the top 5 or 10 most impactful incriptions, I am eager to know which incriptions you will choose, VJ.
        I can guess a few.
        UththiramErUr might be one of them?

        Honestly I could not judge. Because the yardstick for the impactfulness of the kalvettus vary according to the persons.
        As I said, the VELvikudi grants are important for proving the existence of Sangam and the Pandya king Pal-yaaga-saalai Mudhu-kudumi Peru-valzudhi. It also throws a light on the Kalabras inter-regnum.
        The Tanjavur kalvettu of Rajendra proves that the Cholzas were able to vanquish a very powerful, maritime, productive, thallasocratic mega-empire with a naval blitz krieg.

        But I have seen many kalvettus which revealed some events which affected the history of Tamilnadu.

        I have mentioned Kilzavan Sethupathi in many of my Agathiyar postings. He was feudatory chief of Sethu Naadu.
        Sethu naadu is the present Ramanathapuram district. Initially, it was under the Nayakkar kingdom of Madurai.

        Kilzvan extended its boundaries and created the Pudukkottai state. His descendants created the Sivagangai state.

        He refused to pay tribute and became a de facto ruler of his state of Sethu naadu. He defeated the forces and killed the general of Rani Mangamma, the Nayakkar queen of Madurai Naadu.
        Two years ago, a Spanish coin collector sent me a scanned image of a copper coin.
        It was identified as a coin of Sethu Nadu minted by Kilzavan Sethupathi.
        Another direct pointer.....
        I have also mentioned a lot about a certain Siva Temple in Sivapuri in Sivagangai district.
        This Sivapuri temple has a kalvettu which was issued by the Sethupathi in his own name.
        A direct proof of the Sethunadu being an independant kingdom by itself.
        This is the only proper kalvettu belonging to the Sethupathis.
        The separation of Sethunadu which was of utmost strategic importance unbalanced the very existance of the MaduraiNaadu of the Nayakkars.
        The future path for Tamilnadu was altered.
        But this kalvettu is a very rare one.
        Nobody at present knows even its very existance.

        Regards

        JayBee

        ============ ========= ====





        Add whatever you love to the Yahoo! India homepage. Try now! http://in.yahoo.com/trynew

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Jean-Luc Chevillard
        Dear all, my interpretation of this thread is that looking for the Top Ten தமிழ்க் கல்வெட்டு simply means that: -- one is
        Message 3 of 17 , Oct 1, 2009
          Dear all,


          my interpretation of this thread is that "looking for the Top Ten தமிழ்க்
          கல்வெட்டு" simply means that:

          -- one is looking for the best arguments in order to convince the
          younger generation that Fact-based history is important

          -- one thinks that some of them will end up acquiring some volumes of
          the Sii (South Indian Inscriptions) and read them

          -- one thinks that some of them will become subscribers to ஆவணம் (Avanam,
          Journal of the Tamil Nadu Archaeological Society, Thanjavur), which was
          started in 1991

          -- one thinks it is useful to possess such books as the 2-volume "தமிழ்க்
          கல்வெட்டுச் சொல்லகராதி" [2002, published by SANTI SADHANA (Charitable
          Trust), Chennai]

          -- etc.


          Given all that, the following are also quite important:

          -- the பூலாங்குறிச்சி inscription (see ஆவணம், issue 1, page 57-69)

          -- the இளையான்புத்தூர் inscriptions (see ஆவணம், issue 18, page 1-15)

          Regards


          -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris)

          <http://www.linguist.univ-paris-diderot.fr/~chevilla/>



          jaybee555 a écrit :
          > Dear Agathiyarians/VJ,
          >
          > Regarding the top 5 or 10 most impactful incriptions, I am eager to know which incriptions you will choose, VJ.
          > I can guess a few.
          > UththiramErUr might be one of them?
          >
          > Honestly I could not judge. Because the yardstick for the impactfulness of the kalvettus vary according to the persons.
          > As I said, the VELvikudi grants are important for proving the existence of Sangam and the Pandya king Pal-yaaga-saalai Mudhu-kudumi Peru-valzudhi. It also throws a light on the Kalabras inter-regnum.
          > The Tanjavur kalvettu of Rajendra proves that the Cholzas were able to vanquish a very powerful, maritime, productive, thallasocratic mega-empire with a naval blitz krieg.
          >
          > But I have seen many kalvettus which revealed some events which affected the history of Tamilnadu.
          >
          > I have mentioned Kilzavan Sethupathi in many of my Agathiyar postings. He was feudatory chief of Sethu Naadu.
          > Sethu naadu is the present Ramanathapuram district. Initially, it was under the Nayakkar kingdom of Madurai.
          >
          > Kilzvan extended its boundaries and created the Pudukkottai state. His descendants created the Sivagangai state.
          >
          > He refused to pay tribute and became a de facto ruler of his state of Sethu naadu. He defeated the forces and killed the general of Rani Mangamma, the Nayakkar queen of Madurai Naadu.
          > Two years ago, a Spanish coin collector sent me a scanned image of a copper coin.
          > It was identified as a coin of Sethu Nadu minted by Kilzavan Sethupathi.
          > Another direct pointer.....
          > I have also mentioned a lot about a certain Siva Temple in Sivapuri in Sivagangai district.
          > This Sivapuri temple has a kalvettu which was issued by the Sethupathi in his own name.
          > A direct proof of the Sethunadu being an independant kingdom by itself.
          > This is the only proper kalvettu belonging to the Sethupathis.
          > The separation of Sethunadu which was of utmost strategic importance unbalanced the very existance of the MaduraiNaadu of the Nayakkars.
          > The future path for Tamilnadu was altered.
          > But this kalvettu is a very rare one.
          > Nobody at present knows even its very existance.
          >
          > Regards
          >
          > JayBee
          >
          > =========================
          >
          >
          >
        • K Lakshmanan
          Dear All, Yaanai Malai. Near TNAU Madurai. There is a inscription. Do any one of you have any knowledge about that? It is not Tamil. Jain. There is a small
          Message 4 of 17 , Oct 1, 2009
            Dear All,
            Yaanai Malai. Near TNAU Madurai. There is a inscription. Do any one of you
            have any knowledge about that?

            It is not Tamil. Jain. There is a small pond as well on top of Yanai Malai
            with a five seater :-)

            Any idea what the ins is about?

            Lax

            On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 3:06 PM, Jean-Luc Chevillard <
            jean-luc.chevillard@...> wrote:

            >
            >
            > Dear all,
            >
            > my interpretation of this thread is that "looking for the Top Ten தமிழ்க்
            > கல்வெட்டு" simply means that:
            >
            > -- one is looking for the best arguments in order to convince the
            > younger generation that Fact-based history is important
            >
            > -- one thinks that some of them will end up acquiring some volumes of
            > the Sii (South Indian Inscriptions) and read them
            >
            > -- one thinks that some of them will become subscribers to ஆவணம் (Avanam,
            > Journal of the Tamil Nadu Archaeological Society, Thanjavur), which was
            > started in 1991
            >
            > -- one thinks it is useful to possess such books as the 2-volume "தமிழ்க்
            > கல்வெட்டுச் சொல்லகராதி" [2002, published by SANTI SADHANA (Charitable
            > Trust), Chennai]
            >
            > -- etc.
            >
            > Given all that, the following are also quite important:
            >
            > -- the பூலாங்குறிச்சி inscription (see ஆவணம், issue 1, page 57-69)
            >
            > -- the இளையான்புத்தூர் inscriptions (see ஆவணம், issue 18, page 1-15)
            >
            > Regards
            >
            > -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris)
            >
            > <http://www.linguist.univ-paris-diderot.fr/~chevilla/>
            >
            > jaybee555 a écrit :
            >
            > > Dear Agathiyarians/VJ,
            > >
            > > Regarding the top 5 or 10 most impactful incriptions, I am eager to know
            > which incriptions you will choose, VJ.
            > > I can guess a few.
            > > UththiramErUr might be one of them?
            > >
            > > Honestly I could not judge. Because the yardstick for the impactfulness
            > of the kalvettus vary according to the persons.
            > > As I said, the VELvikudi grants are important for proving the existence
            > of Sangam and the Pandya king Pal-yaaga-saalai Mudhu-kudumi Peru-valzudhi.
            > It also throws a light on the Kalabras inter-regnum.
            > > The Tanjavur kalvettu of Rajendra proves that the Cholzas were able to
            > vanquish a very powerful, maritime, productive, thallasocratic mega-empire
            > with a naval blitz krieg.
            > >
            > > But I have seen many kalvettus which revealed some events which affected
            > the history of Tamilnadu.
            > >
            > > I have mentioned Kilzavan Sethupathi in many of my Agathiyar postings. He
            > was feudatory chief of Sethu Naadu.
            > > Sethu naadu is the present Ramanathapuram district. Initially, it was
            > under the Nayakkar kingdom of Madurai.
            > >
            > > Kilzvan extended its boundaries and created the Pudukkottai state. His
            > descendants created the Sivagangai state.
            > >
            > > He refused to pay tribute and became a de facto ruler of his state of
            > Sethu naadu. He defeated the forces and killed the general of Rani Mangamma,
            > the Nayakkar queen of Madurai Naadu.
            > > Two years ago, a Spanish coin collector sent me a scanned image of a
            > copper coin.
            > > It was identified as a coin of Sethu Nadu minted by Kilzavan Sethupathi.
            > > Another direct pointer.....
            > > I have also mentioned a lot about a certain Siva Temple in Sivapuri in
            > Sivagangai district.
            > > This Sivapuri temple has a kalvettu which was issued by the Sethupathi in
            > his own name.
            > > A direct proof of the Sethunadu being an independant kingdom by itself.
            > > This is the only proper kalvettu belonging to the Sethupathis.
            > > The separation of Sethunadu which was of utmost strategic importance
            > unbalanced the very existance of the MaduraiNaadu of the Nayakkars.
            > > The future path for Tamilnadu was altered.
            > > But this kalvettu is a very rare one.
            > > Nobody at present knows even its very existance.
            > >
            > > Regards
            > >
            > > JayBee
            > >
            > > =========================
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • vj kumar
            Hi nanda Can you elaborate on the pillayarpatti inscription Rgds Vj ... -- Sent from my mobile device http://www.poetryinstone.in Here the language of stone
            Message 5 of 17 , Oct 1, 2009
              Hi nanda

              Can you elaborate on the pillayarpatti inscription

              Rgds
              Vj

              On 10/1/09, Nandakumar Selvaraj <snandaakumar@...> wrote:
              > Dear Sir,
              >
              > Looks like we still do not have epigraphical evidence of inter-caste
              > marriage.
              >
              > My list would look like this:
              >
              > 1. Brahmi inscription of satyaputras
              > 2. Ashokan inscription mentioning kingdoms outside his reign.
              > 3. Kharavela inscription of defeating the confederacy of tamil kings.
              > 4. Brahmi inscription in Pillayar patti, denoting that the site was
              > excavated at 2AD & Pillayar himself was present in south india, even before
              > the vatapi invasion.
              >
              >
              >
              > Regards
              >
              > Nanda
              > http://jobdealsinfo.ning.com
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: jaybee555 <jaybee555@...>
              > To: agathiyar@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Thursday, 1 October, 2009 5:47:27 AM
              > Subject: [agathiyar] Top 10 Kalvettus? (English)
              >
              >
              > Dear Agathiyarians/ VJ,
              >
              > Regarding the top 5 or 10 most impactful incriptions, I am eager to know
              > which incriptions you will choose, VJ.
              > I can guess a few.
              > UththiramErUr might be one of them?
              >
              > Honestly I could not judge. Because the yardstick for the impactfulness of
              > the kalvettus vary according to the persons.
              > As I said, the VELvikudi grants are important for proving the existence of
              > Sangam and the Pandya king Pal-yaaga-saalai Mudhu-kudumi Peru-valzudhi. It
              > also throws a light on the Kalabras inter-regnum.
              > The Tanjavur kalvettu of Rajendra proves that the Cholzas were able to
              > vanquish a very powerful, maritime, productive, thallasocratic mega-empire
              > with a naval blitz krieg.
              >
              > But I have seen many kalvettus which revealed some events which affected the
              > history of Tamilnadu.
              >
              > I have mentioned Kilzavan Sethupathi in many of my Agathiyar postings. He
              > was feudatory chief of Sethu Naadu.
              > Sethu naadu is the present Ramanathapuram district. Initially, it was under
              > the Nayakkar kingdom of Madurai.
              >
              > Kilzvan extended its boundaries and created the Pudukkottai state. His
              > descendants created the Sivagangai state.
              >
              > He refused to pay tribute and became a de facto ruler of his state of Sethu
              > naadu. He defeated the forces and killed the general of Rani Mangamma, the
              > Nayakkar queen of Madurai Naadu.
              > Two years ago, a Spanish coin collector sent me a scanned image of a copper
              > coin.
              > It was identified as a coin of Sethu Nadu minted by Kilzavan Sethupathi.
              > Another direct pointer.....
              > I have also mentioned a lot about a certain Siva Temple in Sivapuri in
              > Sivagangai district.
              > This Sivapuri temple has a kalvettu which was issued by the Sethupathi in
              > his own name.
              > A direct proof of the Sethunadu being an independant kingdom by itself.
              > This is the only proper kalvettu belonging to the Sethupathis.
              > The separation of Sethunadu which was of utmost strategic importance
              > unbalanced the very existance of the MaduraiNaadu of the Nayakkars.
              > The future path for Tamilnadu was altered.
              > But this kalvettu is a very rare one.
              > Nobody at present knows even its very existance.
              >
              > Regards
              >
              > JayBee
              >
              > ============ ========= ====
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Add whatever you love to the Yahoo! India homepage. Try now!
              > http://in.yahoo.com/trynew
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >

              --
              Sent from my mobile device

              http://www.poetryinstone.in
              Here the language of stone surpasses the language of man
            • jaybee555
              ... I thought the Jains in and around Yaanai Malai WERE Tamils? How do we differentiate between Tamil and Jain? Regards JayBee
              Message 6 of 17 , Oct 1, 2009
                --- In agathiyar@yahoogroups.com, K Lakshmanan <lakshmanan.kk@...> wrote:
                >
                > Dear All,
                > Yaanai Malai. Near TNAU Madurai. There is a inscription. Do any one of you
                > have any knowledge about that?
                >
                > It is not Tamil. Jain. There is a small pond as well on top of Yanai Malai
                > with a five seater :-)
                >
                > Any idea what the ins is about?
                >
                > Lax


                I thought the Jains in and around Yaanai Malai WERE Tamils?
                How do we differentiate between Tamil and Jain?

                Regards

                JayBee




                >
                > On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 3:06 PM, Jean-Luc Chevillard <
                > jean-luc.chevillard@...> wrote:
                >
                > >
                > >
                > > Dear all,
                > >
                > > my interpretation of this thread is that "looking for the Top Ten தமிழ்க்
                > > கல்வெட்டு" simply means that:
                > >
                > > -- one is looking for the best arguments in order to convince the
                > > younger generation that Fact-based history is important
                > >
                > > -- one thinks that some of them will end up acquiring some volumes of
                > > the Sii (South Indian Inscriptions) and read them
                > >
                > > -- one thinks that some of them will become subscribers to ஆவணம் (Avanam,
                > > Journal of the Tamil Nadu Archaeological Society, Thanjavur), which was
                > > started in 1991
                > >
                > > -- one thinks it is useful to possess such books as the 2-volume "தமிழ்க்
                > > கல்வெட்டுச் சொல்லகராதி" [2002, published by SANTI SADHANA (Charitable
                > > Trust), Chennai]
                > >
                > > -- etc.
                > >
                > > Given all that, the following are also quite important:
                > >
                > > -- the பூலாங்குறிச்சி inscription (see ஆவணம், issue 1, page 57-69)
                > >
                > > -- the இளையான்புத்தூர் inscriptions (see ஆவணம், issue 18, page 1-15)
                > >
                > > Regards
                > >
                > > -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris)
                > >
                > > <http://www.linguist.univ-paris-diderot.fr/~chevilla/>
                > >
                > > jaybee555 a écrit :
                > >
                > > > Dear Agathiyarians/VJ,
                > > >
                > > > Regarding the top 5 or 10 most impactful incriptions, I am eager to know
                > > which incriptions you will choose, VJ.
                > > > I can guess a few.
                > > > UththiramErUr might be one of them?
                > > >
                > > > Honestly I could not judge. Because the yardstick for the impactfulness
                > > of the kalvettus vary according to the persons.
                > > > As I said, the VELvikudi grants are important for proving the existence
                > > of Sangam and the Pandya king Pal-yaaga-saalai Mudhu-kudumi Peru-valzudhi.
                > > It also throws a light on the Kalabras inter-regnum.
                > > > The Tanjavur kalvettu of Rajendra proves that the Cholzas were able to
                > > vanquish a very powerful, maritime, productive, thallasocratic mega-empire
                > > with a naval blitz krieg.
                > > >
                > > > But I have seen many kalvettus which revealed some events which affected
                > > the history of Tamilnadu.
                > > >
                > > > I have mentioned Kilzavan Sethupathi in many of my Agathiyar postings. He
                > > was feudatory chief of Sethu Naadu.
                > > > Sethu naadu is the present Ramanathapuram district. Initially, it was
                > > under the Nayakkar kingdom of Madurai.
                > > >
                > > > Kilzvan extended its boundaries and created the Pudukkottai state. His
                > > descendants created the Sivagangai state.
                > > >
                > > > He refused to pay tribute and became a de facto ruler of his state of
                > > Sethu naadu. He defeated the forces and killed the general of Rani Mangamma,
                > > the Nayakkar queen of Madurai Naadu.
                > > > Two years ago, a Spanish coin collector sent me a scanned image of a
                > > copper coin.
                > > > It was identified as a coin of Sethu Nadu minted by Kilzavan Sethupathi.
                > > > Another direct pointer.....
                > > > I have also mentioned a lot about a certain Siva Temple in Sivapuri in
                > > Sivagangai district.
                > > > This Sivapuri temple has a kalvettu which was issued by the Sethupathi in
                > > his own name.
                > > > A direct proof of the Sethunadu being an independant kingdom by itself.
                > > > This is the only proper kalvettu belonging to the Sethupathis.
                > > > The separation of Sethunadu which was of utmost strategic importance
                > > unbalanced the very existance of the MaduraiNaadu of the Nayakkars.
                > > > The future path for Tamilnadu was altered.
                > > > But this kalvettu is a very rare one.
                > > > Nobody at present knows even its very existance.
                > > >
                > > > Regards
                > > >
                > > > JayBee
                > > >
                > > > =========================
              • Nandakumar Selvaraj
                VJ, I am quoting from memory, so I could be wrong too. I was trying to find the link to the inscription, unfortunately could not locate it. This is a Brahmi
                Message 7 of 17 , Oct 4, 2009
                  VJ,

                  I am quoting from memory, so I could be wrong too. I was trying to find the link to the inscription, unfortunately could not locate it. This is a Brahmi inscription in one of the pillars in pillayarpatti, attesting to the donation of a local cheiftain to the temple. As we all know Tamil-Brahmi's last usage to be around 400AD, which is 200 years + ahead of Vatapi invasion of Narasimha pallava, proving that Ganesha was widespread in tamilnadu even before the said arrival of Ganesha.


                  Regards

                  Nanda
                  http://jobdealsinfo.ning.com





                  ________________________________
                  From: vj kumar <vj.episteme@...>
                  To: agathiyar@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thu, 1 October, 2009 7:51:01 PM
                  Subject: Re: [agathiyar] Top 10 Kalvettus? (English)


                  Hi nanda

                  Can you elaborate on the pillayarpatti inscription

                  Rgds
                  Vj

                  On 10/1/09, Nandakumar Selvaraj <snandaakumar@ yahoo.co. in> wrote:
                  > Dear Sir,
                  >
                  > Looks like we still do not have epigraphical evidence of inter-caste
                  > marriage.
                  >
                  > My list would look like this:
                  >
                  > 1. Brahmi inscription of satyaputras
                  > 2. Ashokan inscription mentioni ng kingdoms outside his reign.
                  > 3. Kharavela inscription of defeating the confederacy of tamil kings.
                  > 4. Brahmi inscription in Pillayar patti, denoting that the site was
                  > excavated at 2AD & Pillayar himself was present in south india, even before
                  > the vatapi invasion.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Regards
                  >
                  > Nanda
                  > http://jobdealsinfo .ning.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ____________ _________ _________ __
                  > From: jaybee555 <jaybee555@yahoo. com>
                  > To: agathiyar@yahoogrou ps.com
                  > Sent: Thursday, 1 October, 2009 5:47:27 AM
                  > Subject: [agathiyar] Top 10 Kalvettus? (English)
                  >
                  >
                  > Dear Agathiyarians/ VJ,
                  >
                  > Regarding the top 5 or 10 most impactful incriptions, I am eager to know
                  > which incriptions you will choose, VJ.
                  > I can guess a few.
                  > UththiramErUr might be one of them?
                  >
                  > Honestly I could not judge. Because the yardstick for the impactfulness of
                  > the kalvettus vary according to the persons.
                  > As I said, the VELvikudi grants are important for proving the existence of
                  > Sangam and the Pandya king Pal-yaaga-saalai Mudhu-kudumi Peru-valzudhi. It
                  > also throws a light on the Kalabras inter-regnum.
                  > The Tanjavur kalvettu of Rajendra proves that the Cholzas were able to
                  > vanquish a very powerful, maritime, productive, thallasocratic mega-empire
                  > with a naval blitz krieg.
                  >
                  > But I have seen many kalvettus which revealed some events which affected the
                  > history of Tamilnadu.
                  >
                  > I have mentioned Kilzavan Sethupathi in many of my Agathiyar postings. He
                  > was feudatory chief of Sethu Naadu.
                  > Sethu naadu is the present Ramanathapuram district. Initially, it was under
                  > the Nayakkar kingdom of Madurai.
                  >
                  > Kilzvan extended its boundaries and created the Pudukkottai state. His
                  > descendants created the Sivagangai state.
                  >
                  > He refused to pay tribute and became a de facto ruler of his state of Sethu
                  > naadu. He defeated the forces and killed the general of Rani Mangamma, the
                  > Nayakkar queen of Madurai Naadu.
                  > Two years ago, a Spanish coin collector sent me a scanned image of a copper
                  > coin.
                  > It was identified as a coin of Sethu Nadu minted by Kilzavan Sethupathi.
                  > Another direct pointer.....
                  > I have also mentioned a lot about a certain Siva Temple in Sivapuri in
                  > Sivagangai district.
                  > This Sivapuri temple has a kalvettu which was issued by the Sethupathi in
                  > his own name.
                  > A direct proof of the Sethunadu being an independant kingdom by itself.
                  > This is the only proper kalvettu belonging to the Sethupathis.
                  > The separation of Sethunadu which was of utmost strategic importance
                  > unbalanced the very existance of the MaduraiNaadu of the Nayakkars.
                  > The future path for Tamilnadu was altered.
                  > But this kalvettu is a very rare one.
                  > Nobody at present knows even its very existance.
                  >
                  > Regards
                  >
                  > JayBee
                  >
                  > ============ ========= ====
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Add whatever you love to the Yahoo! India homepage. Try now!
                  > http://in.yahoo. com/trynew
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >

                  --
                  Sent from my mobile device

                  http://www.poetryin stone.in
                  Here the language of stone surpasses the language of man




                  Now, send attachments up to 25MB with Yahoo! India Mail. Learn how. http://in.overview.mail.yahoo.com/photos

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • jaybee555
                  ... It reads - erukaattuuru kOn peruparaNan It does not mention any donation. Just the name of a person and his town. peruparaNan was a chieftain or
                  Message 8 of 17 , Oct 4, 2009
                    --- In agathiyar@yahoogroups.com, Nandakumar Selvaraj <snandaakumar@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > VJ,
                    >
                    > I am quoting from memory, so I could be wrong too. I was trying to find the link to the inscription, unfortunately could not locate it. This is a Brahmi inscription in one of the pillars in pillayarpatti, attesting to the donation of a local cheiftain to the temple.

                    It reads -

                    "erukaattuuru kOn
                    peruparaNan"

                    It does not mention any donation. Just the name of a person
                    and his town.
                    'peruparaNan was a chieftain or something like that.
                    'erukaattuur' was an ancient town. One of the Sangam
                    personalities bears the town's name. It was around during
                    the Sangam Era. And it still was around during later times.
                    The town was in North Pandya country.
                    Incidentally 'peruparaNan' also happens to be a Snagm Age name.
                    It went out of use during the later times.

                    Regards

                    JayBee

                    As we all know Tamil-Brahmi's last usage to be around 400AD, which is 200 years + ahead of Vatapi invasion of Narasimha pallava, proving that Ganesha was widespread in tamilnadu even before the said arrival of Ganesha.
                    >
                    >
                    > Regards
                    >
                    > Nanda
                    > http://jobdealsinfo.ning.com
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    > From: vj kumar <vj.episteme@...>
                    > To: agathiyar@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Thu, 1 October, 2009 7:51:01 PM
                    > Subject: Re: [agathiyar] Top 10 Kalvettus? (English)
                    >
                    >
                    > Hi nanda
                    >
                    > Can you elaborate on the pillayarpatti inscription
                    >
                    > Rgds
                    > Vj
                    >
                    > On 10/1/09, Nandakumar Selvaraj <snandaakumar@ yahoo.co. in> wrote:
                    > > Dear Sir,
                    > >
                    > > Looks like we still do not have epigraphical evidence of inter-caste
                    > > marriage.
                    > >
                    > > My list would look like this:
                    > >
                    > > 1. Brahmi inscription of satyaputras
                    > > 2. Ashokan inscription mentioni ng kingdoms outside his reign.
                    > > 3. Kharavela inscription of defeating the confederacy of tamil kings.
                    > > 4. Brahmi inscription in Pillayar patti, denoting that the site was
                    > > excavated at 2AD & Pillayar himself was present in south india, even before
                    > > the vatapi invasion.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Regards
                    > >
                    > > Nanda
                    > > http://jobdealsinfo .ning.com
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ____________ _________ _________ __
                    > > From: jaybee555 <jaybee555@yahoo. com>
                    > > To: agathiyar@yahoogrou ps.com
                    > > Sent: Thursday, 1 October, 2009 5:47:27 AM
                    > > Subject: [agathiyar] Top 10 Kalvettus? (English)
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Dear Agathiyarians/ VJ,
                    > >
                    > > Regarding the top 5 or 10 most impactful incriptions, I am eager to know
                    > > which incriptions you will choose, VJ.
                    > > I can guess a few.
                    > > UththiramErUr might be one of them?
                    > >
                    > > Honestly I could not judge. Because the yardstick for the impactfulness of
                    > > the kalvettus vary according to the persons.
                    > > As I said, the VELvikudi grants are important for proving the existence of
                    > > Sangam and the Pandya king Pal-yaaga-saalai Mudhu-kudumi Peru-valzudhi. It
                    > > also throws a light on the Kalabras inter-regnum.
                    > > The Tanjavur kalvettu of Rajendra proves that the Cholzas were able to
                    > > vanquish a very powerful, maritime, productive, thallasocratic mega-empire
                    > > with a naval blitz krieg.
                    > >
                    > > But I have seen many kalvettus which revealed some events which affected the
                    > > history of Tamilnadu.
                    > >
                    > > I have mentioned Kilzavan Sethupathi in many of my Agathiyar postings. He
                    > > was feudatory chief of Sethu Naadu.
                    > > Sethu naadu is the present Ramanathapuram district. Initially, it was under
                    > > the Nayakkar kingdom of Madurai.
                    > >
                    > > Kilzvan extended its boundaries and created the Pudukkottai state. His
                    > > descendants created the Sivagangai state.
                    > >
                    > > He refused to pay tribute and became a de facto ruler of his state of Sethu
                    > > naadu. He defeated the forces and killed the general of Rani Mangamma, the
                    > > Nayakkar queen of Madurai Naadu.
                    > > Two years ago, a Spanish coin collector sent me a scanned image of a copper
                    > > coin.
                    > > It was identified as a coin of Sethu Nadu minted by Kilzavan Sethupathi.
                    > > Another direct pointer.....
                    > > I have also mentioned a lot about a certain Siva Temple in Sivapuri in
                    > > Sivagangai district.
                    > > This Sivapuri temple has a kalvettu which was issued by the Sethupathi in
                    > > his own name.
                    > > A direct proof of the Sethunadu being an independant kingdom by itself.
                    > > This is the only proper kalvettu belonging to the Sethupathis.
                    > > The separation of Sethunadu which was of utmost strategic importance
                    > > unbalanced the very existance of the MaduraiNaadu of the Nayakkars.
                    > > The future path for Tamilnadu was altered.
                    > > But this kalvettu is a very rare one.
                    > > Nobody at present knows even its very existance.
                    > >
                    > > Regards
                    > >
                    > > JayBee
                    > >
                    > > ============ ========= ====
                  • vj kumar
                    Dear nanda If you could check and let us know more about this, would be useful. I know pillayarpatti as a cave structure predates the escavation of mahendra
                    Message 9 of 17 , Oct 4, 2009
                      Dear nanda

                      If you could check and let us know more about this, would be useful.

                      I know pillayarpatti as a cave structure predates the escavation of
                      mahendra pallava n is attributed to pandian styling !

                      But regarding widespread ganesha worship, I would like you to
                      substantiate this. When we look at mallai for eg, we do not see
                      ganesha in any of the early escavations. The first one ( I read this
                      not seen yet) is ganesha in shown in the adhivaraha cave as one of the
                      many ganas. Apart fm this we don't see ganesha is any of the monoliths
                      n caves or bas reliefs. We see ganesha occupying the koodus of the
                      shore temple and from then on in kanchi kailasantha as a seperate
                      shrine.

                      Rgds
                      Vj

                      On 10/4/09, Nandakumar Selvaraj <snandaakumar@...> wrote:
                      > VJ,
                      >
                      > I am quoting from memory, so I could be wrong too. I was trying to find the
                      > link to the inscription, unfortunately could not locate it. This is a Brahmi
                      > inscription in one of the pillars in pillayarpatti, attesting to the
                      > donation of a local cheiftain to the temple. As we all know Tamil-Brahmi's
                      > last usage to be around 400AD, which is 200 years + ahead of Vatapi
                      > invasion of Narasimha pallava, proving that Ganesha was widespread in
                      > tamilnadu even before the said arrival of Ganesha.
                      >
                      >
                      > Regards
                      >
                      > Nanda
                      > http://jobdealsinfo.ning.com
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ________________________________
                      > From: vj kumar <vj.episteme@...>
                      > To: agathiyar@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Thu, 1 October, 2009 7:51:01 PM
                      > Subject: Re: [agathiyar] Top 10 Kalvettus? (English)
                      >
                      >
                      > Hi nanda
                      >
                      > Can you elaborate on the pillayarpatti inscription
                      >
                      > Rgds
                      > Vj
                      >
                      > On 10/1/09, Nandakumar Selvaraj <snandaakumar@ yahoo.co. in> wrote:
                      >> Dear Sir,
                      >>
                      >> Looks like we still do not have epigraphical evidence of inter-caste
                      >> marriage.
                      >>
                      >> My list would look like this:
                      >>
                      >> 1. Brahmi inscription of satyaputras
                      >> 2. Ashokan inscription mentioni ng kingdoms outside his reign.
                      >> 3. Kharavela inscription of defeating the confederacy of tamil kings.
                      >> 4. Brahmi inscription in Pillayar patti, denoting that the site was
                      >> excavated at 2AD & Pillayar himself was present in south india, even
                      >> before
                      >> the vatapi invasion.
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> Regards
                      >>
                      >> Nanda
                      >> http://jobdealsinfo .ning.com
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> ____________ _________ _________ __
                      >> From: jaybee555 <jaybee555@yahoo. com>
                      >> To: agathiyar@yahoogrou ps.com
                      >> Sent: Thursday, 1 October, 2009 5:47:27 AM
                      >> Subject: [agathiyar] Top 10 Kalvettus? (English)
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> Dear Agathiyarians/ VJ,
                      >>
                      >> Regarding the top 5 or 10 most impactful incriptions, I am eager to know
                      >> which incriptions you will choose, VJ.
                      >> I can guess a few.
                      >> UththiramErUr might be one of them?
                      >>
                      >> Honestly I could not judge. Because the yardstick for the impactfulness of
                      >> the kalvettus vary according to the persons.
                      >> As I said, the VELvikudi grants are important for proving the existence of
                      >> Sangam and the Pandya king Pal-yaaga-saalai Mudhu-kudumi Peru-valzudhi. It
                      >> also throws a light on the Kalabras inter-regnum.
                      >> The Tanjavur kalvettu of Rajendra proves that the Cholzas were able to
                      >> vanquish a very powerful, maritime, productive, thallasocratic mega-empire
                      >> with a naval blitz krieg.
                      >>
                      >> But I have seen many kalvettus which revealed some events which affected
                      >> the
                      >> history of Tamilnadu.
                      >>
                      >> I have mentioned Kilzavan Sethupathi in many of my Agathiyar postings. He
                      >> was feudatory chief of Sethu Naadu.
                      >> Sethu naadu is the present Ramanathapuram district. Initially, it was
                      >> under
                      >> the Nayakkar kingdom of Madurai.
                      >>
                      >> Kilzvan extended its boundaries and created the Pudukkottai state. His
                      >> descendants created the Sivagangai state.
                      >>
                      >> He refused to pay tribute and became a de facto ruler of his state of
                      >> Sethu
                      >> naadu. He defeated the forces and killed the general of Rani Mangamma, the
                      >> Nayakkar queen of Madurai Naadu.
                      >> Two years ago, a Spanish coin collector sent me a scanned image of a
                      >> copper
                      >> coin.
                      >> It was identified as a coin of Sethu Nadu minted by Kilzavan Sethupathi.
                      >> Another direct pointer.....
                      >> I have also mentioned a lot about a certain Siva Temple in Sivapuri in
                      >> Sivagangai district.
                      >> This Sivapuri temple has a kalvettu which was issued by the Sethupathi in
                      >> his own name.
                      >> A direct proof of the Sethunadu being an independant kingdom by itself.
                      >> This is the only proper kalvettu belonging to the Sethupathis.
                      >> The separation of Sethunadu which was of utmost strategic importance
                      >> unbalanced the very existance of the MaduraiNaadu of the Nayakkars.
                      >> The future path for Tamilnadu was altered.
                      >> But this kalvettu is a very rare one.
                      >> Nobody at present knows even its very existance.
                      >>
                      >> Regards
                      >>
                      >> JayBee
                      >>
                      >> ============ ========= ====
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> Add whatever you love to the Yahoo! India homepage. Try now!
                      >> http://in.yahoo. com/trynew
                      >>
                      >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >>
                      >>
                      >
                      > --
                      > Sent from my mobile device
                      >
                      > http://www.poetryin stone.in
                      > Here the language of stone surpasses the language of man
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Now, send attachments up to 25MB with Yahoo! India Mail. Learn how.
                      > http://in.overview.mail.yahoo.com/photos
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >

                      --
                      Sent from my mobile device

                      http://www.poetryinstone.in
                      Here the language of stone surpasses the language of man
                    • Jean-Luc Chevillard
                      Dear Sir, is this an inscription distinct from the one for which Iravatham Mahadevan [Early Tamil Epigraphy, 2003, page 475] gives the reading:
                      Message 10 of 17 , Oct 4, 2009
                        Dear Sir,

                        is this an inscription distinct from the one
                        for which Iravatham Mahadevan
                        [Early Tamil Epigraphy, 2003, page 475]
                        gives the reading:

                        எக்காட்டூரு
                        க்கோன்பெருந்தசன்

                        Or is it the same inscription but with a different reading

                        Thanks for clarifying

                        Best wishes

                        -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris)


                        jaybee555 a écrit :
                        > --- In agathiyar@yahoogroups.com, Nandakumar Selvaraj <snandaakumar@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >> VJ,
                        >>
                        >> I am quoting from memory, so I could be wrong too. I was trying to find the link to the inscription, unfortunately could not locate it. This is a Brahmi inscription in one of the pillars in pillayarpatti, attesting to the donation of a local cheiftain to the temple.
                        >>
                        >
                        > It reads -
                        >
                        > "erukaattuuru kOn
                        > peruparaNan"
                        >
                        > It does not mention any donation. Just the name of a person
                        > and his town.
                        > 'peruparaNan was a chieftain or something like that.
                        > 'erukaattuur' was an ancient town. One of the Sangam
                        > personalities bears the town's name. It was around during
                        > the Sangam Era. And it still was around during later times.
                        > The town was in North Pandya country.
                        > Incidentally 'peruparaNan' also happens to be a Snagm Age name.
                        > It went out of use during the later times.
                        >
                        > Regards
                        >
                        > JayBee
                        >
                        > As we all know Tamil-Brahmi's last usage to be around 400AD, which is 200 years + ahead of Vatapi invasion of Narasimha pallava, proving that Ganesha was widespread in tamilnadu even before the said arrival of Ganesha.
                        >
                        >> Regards
                        >>
                        >> Nanda
                        >> http://jobdealsinfo.ning.com
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> ________________________________
                        >> From: vj kumar <vj.episteme@...>
                        >> To: agathiyar@yahoogroups.com
                        >> Sent: Thu, 1 October, 2009 7:51:01 PM
                        >> Subject: Re: [agathiyar] Top 10 Kalvettus? (English)
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> Hi nanda
                        >>
                        >> Can you elaborate on the pillayarpatti inscription
                        >>
                        >> Rgds
                        >> Vj
                        >>
                        >> On 10/1/09, Nandakumar Selvaraj <snandaakumar@ yahoo.co. in> wrote:
                        >>
                        >>> Dear Sir,
                        >>>
                        >>> Looks like we still do not have epigraphical evidence of inter-caste
                        >>> marriage.
                        >>>
                        >>> My list would look like this:
                        >>>
                        >>> 1. Brahmi inscription of satyaputras
                        >>> 2. Ashokan inscription mentioni ng kingdoms outside his reign.
                        >>> 3. Kharavela inscription of defeating the confederacy of tamil kings.
                        >>> 4. Brahmi inscription in Pillayar patti, denoting that the site was
                        >>> excavated at 2AD & Pillayar himself was present in south india, even before
                        >>> the vatapi invasion.
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>> Regards
                        >>>
                        >>> Nanda
                        >>> http://jobdealsinfo .ning.com
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>> ____________ _________ _________ __
                        >>> From: jaybee555 <jaybee555@yahoo. com>
                        >>> To: agathiyar@yahoogrou ps.com
                        >>> Sent: Thursday, 1 October, 2009 5:47:27 AM
                        >>> Subject: [agathiyar] Top 10 Kalvettus? (English)
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>> Dear Agathiyarians/ VJ,
                        >>>
                        >>> Regarding the top 5 or 10 most impactful incriptions, I am eager to know
                        >>> which incriptions you will choose, VJ.
                        >>> I can guess a few.
                        >>> UththiramErUr might be one of them?
                        >>>
                        >>> Honestly I could not judge. Because the yardstick for the impactfulness of
                        >>> the kalvettus vary according to the persons.
                        >>> As I said, the VELvikudi grants are important for proving the existence of
                        >>> Sangam and the Pandya king Pal-yaaga-saalai Mudhu-kudumi Peru-valzudhi. It
                        >>> also throws a light on the Kalabras inter-regnum.
                        >>> The Tanjavur kalvettu of Rajendra proves that the Cholzas were able to
                        >>> vanquish a very powerful, maritime, productive, thallasocratic mega-empire
                        >>> with a naval blitz krieg.
                        >>>
                        >>> But I have seen many kalvettus which revealed some events which affected the
                        >>> history of Tamilnadu.
                        >>>
                        >>> I have mentioned Kilzavan Sethupathi in many of my Agathiyar postings. He
                        >>> was feudatory chief of Sethu Naadu.
                        >>> Sethu naadu is the present Ramanathapuram district. Initially, it was under
                        >>> the Nayakkar kingdom of Madurai.
                        >>>
                        >>> Kilzvan extended its boundaries and created the Pudukkottai state. His
                        >>> descendants created the Sivagangai state.
                        >>>
                        >>> He refused to pay tribute and became a de facto ruler of his state of Sethu
                        >>> naadu. He defeated the forces and killed the general of Rani Mangamma, the
                        >>> Nayakkar queen of Madurai Naadu.
                        >>> Two years ago, a Spanish coin collector sent me a scanned image of a copper
                        >>> coin.
                        >>> It was identified as a coin of Sethu Nadu minted by Kilzavan Sethupathi.
                        >>> Another direct pointer.....
                        >>> I have also mentioned a lot about a certain Siva Temple in Sivapuri in
                        >>> Sivagangai district.
                        >>> This Sivapuri temple has a kalvettu which was issued by the Sethupathi in
                        >>> his own name.
                        >>> A direct proof of the Sethunadu being an independant kingdom by itself.
                        >>> This is the only proper kalvettu belonging to the Sethupathis.
                        >>> The separation of Sethunadu which was of utmost strategic importance
                        >>> unbalanced the very existance of the MaduraiNaadu of the Nayakkars.
                        >>> The future path for Tamilnadu was altered.
                        >>> But this kalvettu is a very rare one.
                        >>> Nobody at present knows even its very existance.
                        >>>
                        >>> Regards
                        >>>
                        >>> JayBee
                        >>>
                        >>> ============ ========= ====
                        >>>
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • jaybee555
                        ... Dear Mon.Chevillard It is the same inscription. I gave Iravadham Mahadevan s reading of this inscription made in a small publication which was distributed
                        Message 11 of 17 , Oct 4, 2009
                          --- In agathiyar@yahoogroups.com, Jean-Luc Chevillard <jean-luc.chevillard@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Dear Sir,
                          >
                          > is this an inscription distinct from the one
                          > for which Iravatham Mahadevan
                          > [Early Tamil Epigraphy, 2003, page 475]
                          > gives the reading:
                          >
                          > எக்காட்டூரு
                          > க்கோன்பெருந்தசன்
                          >
                          > Or is it the same inscription but with a different reading

                          Dear Mon.Chevillard

                          It is the same inscription.
                          I gave Iravadham Mahadevan's reading of this inscription
                          made in a small publication which was distributed at the Seminar
                          on Archeology held in Madurai in 1970 or 71.
                          Kamban adi podi Saa.Ganesan ofKaraikudi has also read it as such.
                          IM must have revised it and given a newer reading as 'Perundhacan'.

                          Regards

                          JayBee


                          >
                          > Thanks for clarifying
                          >
                          > Best wishes
                          >
                          > -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris)
                          >
                          >
                          > jaybee555 a écrit :
                          > > --- In agathiyar@yahoogroups.com, Nandakumar Selvaraj <snandaakumar@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > >> VJ,
                          > >>
                          > >> I am quoting from memory, so I could be wrong too. I was trying to find the link to the inscription, unfortunately could not locate it. This is a Brahmi inscription in one of the pillars in pillayarpatti, attesting to the donation of a local cheiftain to the temple.
                          > >>
                          > >
                          > > It reads -
                          > >
                          > > "erukaattuuru kOn
                          > > peruparaNan"
                          > >
                          > > It does not mention any donation. Just the name of a person
                          > > and his town.
                          > > 'peruparaNan was a chieftain or something like that.
                          > > 'erukaattuur' was an ancient town. One of the Sangam
                          > > personalities bears the town's name. It was around during
                          > > the Sangam Era. And it still was around during later times.
                          > > The town was in North Pandya country.
                          > > Incidentally 'peruparaNan' also happens to be a Snagm Age name.
                          > > It went out of use during the later times.
                          > >
                          > > Regards
                          > >
                          > > JayBee
                          > >
                          > > As we all know Tamil-Brahmi's last usage to be around 400AD, which is 200 years + ahead of Vatapi invasion of Narasimha pallava, proving that Ganesha was widespread in tamilnadu even before the said arrival of Ganesha.
                          > >
                          > >> Regards
                          > >>
                          > >> Nanda
                          > >> http://jobdealsinfo.ning.com
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >> ________________________________
                          > >> From: vj kumar <vj.episteme@>
                          > >> To: agathiyar@yahoogroups.com
                          > >> Sent: Thu, 1 October, 2009 7:51:01 PM
                          > >> Subject: Re: [agathiyar] Top 10 Kalvettus? (English)
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >> Hi nanda
                          > >>
                          > >> Can you elaborate on the pillayarpatti inscription
                          > >>
                          > >> Rgds
                          > >> Vj
                          > >>
                          > >> On 10/1/09, Nandakumar Selvaraj <snandaakumar@ yahoo.co. in> wrote:
                          > >>
                          > >>> Dear Sir,
                          > >>>
                          > >>> Looks like we still do not have epigraphical evidence of inter-caste
                          > >>> marriage.
                          > >>>
                          > >>> My list would look like this:
                          > >>>
                          > >>> 1. Brahmi inscription of satyaputras
                          > >>> 2. Ashokan inscription mentioni ng kingdoms outside his reign.
                          > >>> 3. Kharavela inscription of defeating the confederacy of tamil kings.
                          > >>> 4. Brahmi inscription in Pillayar patti, denoting that the site was
                          > >>> excavated at 2AD & Pillayar himself was present in south india, even before
                          > >>> the vatapi invasion.
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>> Regards
                          > >>>
                          > >>> Nanda
                          > >>> http://jobdealsinfo .ning.com
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>> ____________ _________ _________ __
                          > >>> From: jaybee555 <jaybee555@yahoo. com>
                          > >>> To: agathiyar@yahoogrou ps.com
                          > >>> Sent: Thursday, 1 October, 2009 5:47:27 AM
                          > >>> Subject: [agathiyar] Top 10 Kalvettus? (English)
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>> Dear Agathiyarians/ VJ,
                          > >>>
                          > >>> Regarding the top 5 or 10 most impactful incriptions, I am eager to know
                          > >>> which incriptions you will choose, VJ.
                          > >>> I can guess a few.
                          > >>> UththiramErUr might be one of them?
                          > >>>
                          > >>> Honestly I could not judge. Because the yardstick for the impactfulness of
                          > >>> the kalvettus vary according to the persons.
                          > >>> As I said, the VELvikudi grants are important for proving the existence of
                          > >>> Sangam and the Pandya king Pal-yaaga-saalai Mudhu-kudumi Peru-valzudhi. It
                          > >>> also throws a light on the Kalabras inter-regnum.
                          > >>> The Tanjavur kalvettu of Rajendra proves that the Cholzas were able to
                          > >>> vanquish a very powerful, maritime, productive, thallasocratic mega-empire
                          > >>> with a naval blitz krieg.
                          > >>>
                          > >>> But I have seen many kalvettus which revealed some events which affected the
                          > >>> history of Tamilnadu.
                          > >>>
                          > >>> I have mentioned Kilzavan Sethupathi in many of my Agathiyar postings. He
                          > >>> was feudatory chief of Sethu Naadu.
                          > >>> Sethu naadu is the present Ramanathapuram district. Initially, it was under
                          > >>> the Nayakkar kingdom of Madurai.
                          > >>>
                          > >>> Kilzvan extended its boundaries and created the Pudukkottai state. His
                          > >>> descendants created the Sivagangai state.
                          > >>>
                          > >>> He refused to pay tribute and became a de facto ruler of his state of Sethu
                          > >>> naadu. He defeated the forces and killed the general of Rani Mangamma, the
                          > >>> Nayakkar queen of Madurai Naadu.
                          > >>> Two years ago, a Spanish coin collector sent me a scanned image of a copper
                          > >>> coin.
                          > >>> It was identified as a coin of Sethu Nadu minted by Kilzavan Sethupathi.
                          > >>> Another direct pointer.....
                          > >>> I have also mentioned a lot about a certain Siva Temple in Sivapuri in
                          > >>> Sivagangai district.
                          > >>> This Sivapuri temple has a kalvettu which was issued by the Sethupathi in
                          > >>> his own name.
                          > >>> A direct proof of the Sethunadu being an independant kingdom by itself.
                          > >>> This is the only proper kalvettu belonging to the Sethupathis.
                          > >>> The separation of Sethunadu which was of utmost strategic importance
                          > >>> unbalanced the very existance of the MaduraiNaadu of the Nayakkars.
                          > >>> The future path for Tamilnadu was altered.
                          > >>> But this kalvettu is a very rare one.
                          > >>> Nobody at present knows even its very existance.
                          > >>>
                          > >>> Regards
                          > >>>
                          > >>> JayBee
                          > >>>
                          > >>> ============ ========= ====
                          > >>>
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • K Lakshmanan
                          Exactly. I am seeking help here. Is it Prakrit? Or is it Tamil? Were Jains confining their communication to Prakrit? To pass on messages to near ones knowing
                          Message 12 of 17 , Oct 4, 2009
                            Exactly. I am seeking help here. Is it Prakrit? Or is it Tamil?

                            Were Jains confining their communication to Prakrit? To pass on messages to
                            near ones knowing the Shaiva Majority around them ?

                            Is there a Jain inscription in Tamil? Readable by India's Arch society?

                            Help please.

                            KL



                            On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 3:57 AM, jaybee555 <jaybee555@...> wrote:

                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In agathiyar@yahoogroups.com <agathiyar%40yahoogroups.com>, K
                            > Lakshmanan <lakshmanan.kk@...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Dear All,
                            > > Yaanai Malai. Near TNAU Madurai. There is a inscription. Do any one of
                            > you
                            > > have any knowledge about that?
                            > >
                            > > It is not Tamil. Jain. There is a small pond as well on top of Yanai
                            > Malai
                            > > with a five seater :-)
                            > >
                            > > Any idea what the ins is about?
                            > >
                            > > Lax
                            >
                            > I thought the Jains in and around Yaanai Malai WERE Tamils?
                            > How do we differentiate between Tamil and Jain?
                            >
                            > Regards
                            >
                            > JayBee
                            >
                            > >
                            > > On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 3:06 PM, Jean-Luc Chevillard <
                            > > jean-luc.chevillard@...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > Dear all,
                            > > >
                            > > > my interpretation of this thread is that "looking for the Top Ten
                            > தமிழ௠கà¯
                            > > > கல௠வெட௠ட௠" simply means that:
                            > > >
                            > > > -- one is looking for the best arguments in order to convince the
                            > > > younger generation that Fact-based history is important
                            > > >
                            > > > -- one thinks that some of them will end up acquiring some volumes of
                            > > > the Sii (South Indian Inscriptions) and read them
                            > > >
                            > > > -- one thinks that some of them will become subscribers to
                            > ஆவணம௠(Avanam,
                            > > > Journal of the Tamil Nadu Archaeological Society, Thanjavur), which was
                            > > > started in 1991
                            > > >
                            > > > -- one thinks it is useful to possess such books as the 2-volume
                            > "தமிழ௠கà¯
                            > > > கல௠வெட௠ட௠ச௠சொல௠லகராதி" [2002,
                            > published by SANTI SADHANA (Charitable
                            > > > Trust), Chennai]
                            > > >
                            > > > -- etc.
                            > > >
                            > > > Given all that, the following are also quite important:
                            > > >
                            > > > -- the பூலாங௠க௠றிச௠சி inscription (see
                            > ஆவணம௠, issue 1, page 57-69)
                            > > >
                            > > > -- the இளையான௠ப௠த௠தூர௠inscriptions (see
                            > ஆவணம௠, issue 18, page 1-15)
                            > > >
                            > > > Regards
                            > > >
                            > > > -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris)
                            > > >
                            > > > <http://www.linguist.univ-paris-diderot.fr/~chevilla/>
                            > > >
                            > > > jaybee555 a écrit :
                            >
                            > > >
                            > > > > Dear Agathiyarians/VJ,
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Regarding the top 5 or 10 most impactful incriptions, I am eager to
                            > know
                            > > > which incriptions you will choose, VJ.
                            > > > > I can guess a few.
                            > > > > UththiramErUr might be one of them?
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Honestly I could not judge. Because the yardstick for the
                            > impactfulness
                            > > > of the kalvettus vary according to the persons.
                            > > > > As I said, the VELvikudi grants are important for proving the
                            > existence
                            > > > of Sangam and the Pandya king Pal-yaaga-saalai Mudhu-kudumi
                            > Peru-valzudhi.
                            > > > It also throws a light on the Kalabras inter-regnum.
                            > > > > The Tanjavur kalvettu of Rajendra proves that the Cholzas were able
                            > to
                            > > > vanquish a very powerful, maritime, productive, thallasocratic
                            > mega-empire
                            > > > with a naval blitz krieg.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > But I have seen many kalvettus which revealed some events which
                            > affected
                            > > > the history of Tamilnadu.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > I have mentioned Kilzavan Sethupathi in many of my Agathiyar
                            > postings. He
                            > > > was feudatory chief of Sethu Naadu.
                            > > > > Sethu naadu is the present Ramanathapuram district. Initially, it was
                            > > > under the Nayakkar kingdom of Madurai.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Kilzvan extended its boundaries and created the Pudukkottai state.
                            > His
                            > > > descendants created the Sivagangai state.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > He refused to pay tribute and became a de facto ruler of his state of
                            > > > Sethu naadu. He defeated the forces and killed the general of Rani
                            > Mangamma,
                            > > > the Nayakkar queen of Madurai Naadu.
                            > > > > Two years ago, a Spanish coin collector sent me a scanned image of a
                            > > > copper coin.
                            > > > > It was identified as a coin of Sethu Nadu minted by Kilzavan
                            > Sethupathi.
                            > > > > Another direct pointer.....
                            > > > > I have also mentioned a lot about a certain Siva Temple in Sivapuri
                            > in
                            > > > Sivagangai district.
                            > > > > This Sivapuri temple has a kalvettu which was issued by the
                            > Sethupathi in
                            > > > his own name.
                            > > > > A direct proof of the Sethunadu being an independant kingdom by
                            > itself.
                            > > > > This is the only proper kalvettu belonging to the Sethupathis.
                            > > > > The separation of Sethunadu which was of utmost strategic importance
                            > > > unbalanced the very existance of the MaduraiNaadu of the Nayakkars.
                            > > > > The future path for Tamilnadu was altered.
                            > > > > But this kalvettu is a very rare one.
                            > > > > Nobody at present knows even its very existance.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Regards
                            > > > >
                            > > > > JayBee
                            > > > >
                            > > > > =========================
                            >
                            >
                            >


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • vj kumar
                            dear sir though not my field of study, attempting to answer. This is from a presentation given to us by Sri Swaminathan as part of the ponniyin selvan group in
                            Message 13 of 17 , Oct 4, 2009
                              dear sir

                              though not my field of study, attempting to answer.

                              This is from a presentation given to us by Sri Swaminathan as part of the
                              ponniyin selvan group in December 2008, this was a kind of his guide or
                              overview to reading the monumental work

                              Early Tamil Epigraphy
                              From the Earliest Times to the 6th Century AD
                              By
                              Iravatham Mahadevan
                              #############################
                              The earliest inscription in tamil Brahmi is the mangulam inscription. Its
                              dated to 2nd C BC.

                              Slide 53
                              kaNiy nanta’asiriy’I kuv’ankE dammam ittA’a neTuncazhiyan
                              paNa’an kaDal’an vazhuttiy koTuppitta’a paLiy

                              Meaning:

                              This is the charity to nanta-siri kuvan, the kaNi; the bed was caused to be
                              carved by kaTalan vazhuti, the servant of neTunchezhian.

                              ##############################
                              Most of the early tamil inscriptions are denoting donations for Jain caves
                              and cutting beds for them into rock. I think what Dr was asking is, why and
                              how you distinguish jains and tamils. These inscriptions are works of
                              charity cut by tamil sounding names / people /kings for Jains.

                              rgds
                              vj

                              http://www.poetryinstone.in
                              Here the language of stone surpasses the language of man


                              On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 11:20 PM, K Lakshmanan <lakshmanan.kk@...>wrote:

                              >
                              >
                              > Exactly. I am seeking help here. Is it Prakrit? Or is it Tamil?
                              >
                              > Were Jains confining their communication to Prakrit? To pass on messages to
                              > near ones knowing the Shaiva Majority around them ?
                              >
                              > Is there a Jain inscription in Tamil? Readable by India's Arch society?
                              >
                              > Help please.
                              >
                              > KL
                              >
                              > On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 3:57 AM, jaybee555 <jaybee555@...<jaybee555%40yahoo.com>>
                              > wrote:
                              >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --- In agathiyar@yahoogroups.com <agathiyar%40yahoogroups.com><agathiyar%
                              > 40yahoogroups.com>, K
                              >
                              > > Lakshmanan <lakshmanan.kk@...> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > Dear All,
                              > > > Yaanai Malai. Near TNAU Madurai. There is a inscription. Do any one of
                              > > you
                              > > > have any knowledge about that?
                              > > >
                              > > > It is not Tamil. Jain. There is a small pond as well on top of Yanai
                              > > Malai
                              > > > with a five seater :-)
                              > > >
                              > > > Any idea what the ins is about?
                              > > >
                              > > > Lax
                              > >
                              > > I thought the Jains in and around Yaanai Malai WERE Tamils?
                              > > How do we differentiate between Tamil and Jain?
                              > >
                              > > Regards
                              > >
                              > > JayBee
                              > >
                              > > >
                              > > > On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 3:06 PM, Jean-Luc Chevillard <
                              > > > jean-luc.chevillard@...> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Dear all,
                              > > > >
                              > > > > my interpretation of this thread is that "looking for the Top Ten
                              > > தமிழ௠கà¯
                              > > > > கல௠வெட௠ட௠" simply means that:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > -- one is looking for the best arguments in order to convince the
                              > > > > younger generation that Fact-based history is important
                              > > > >
                              > > > > -- one thinks that some of them will end up acquiring some volumes of
                              > > > > the Sii (South Indian Inscriptions) and read them
                              > > > >
                              > > > > -- one thinks that some of them will become subscribers to
                              > > ஆவணம௠(Avanam,
                              > > > > Journal of the Tamil Nadu Archaeological Society, Thanjavur), which
                              > was
                              > > > > started in 1991
                              > > > >
                              > > > > -- one thinks it is useful to possess such books as the 2-volume
                              > > "தமிழ௠கà¯
                              > > > > கல௠வெட௠ட௠ச௠சொல௠லகராதி"
                              > [2002,
                              > > published by SANTI SADHANA (Charitable
                              > > > > Trust), Chennai]
                              > > > >
                              > > > > -- etc.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Given all that, the following are also quite important:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > -- the பூலாங௠க௠றிச௠சி inscription (see
                              > > ஆவணம௠, issue 1, page 57-69)
                              > > > >
                              > > > > -- the இளையான௠ப௠த௠தூர௠inscriptions (see
                              > > ஆவணம௠, issue 18, page 1-15)
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Regards
                              > > > >
                              > > > > -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris)
                              > > > >
                              > > > > <http://www.linguist.univ-paris-diderot.fr/~chevilla/<http://www.linguist.univ-paris-diderot.fr/%7Echevilla/>
                              > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > jaybee555 a écrit :
                              > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > > Dear Agathiyarians/VJ,
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Regarding the top 5 or 10 most impactful incriptions, I am eager to
                              > > know
                              > > > > which incriptions you will choose, VJ.
                              > > > > > I can guess a few.
                              > > > > > UththiramErUr might be one of them?
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Honestly I could not judge. Because the yardstick for the
                              > > impactfulness
                              > > > > of the kalvettus vary according to the persons.
                              > > > > > As I said, the VELvikudi grants are important for proving the
                              > > existence
                              > > > > of Sangam and the Pandya king Pal-yaaga-saalai Mudhu-kudumi
                              > > Peru-valzudhi.
                              > > > > It also throws a light on the Kalabras inter-regnum.
                              > > > > > The Tanjavur kalvettu of Rajendra proves that the Cholzas were able
                              > > to
                              > > > > vanquish a very powerful, maritime, productive, thallasocratic
                              > > mega-empire
                              > > > > with a naval blitz krieg.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > But I have seen many kalvettus which revealed some events which
                              > > affected
                              > > > > the history of Tamilnadu.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > I have mentioned Kilzavan Sethupathi in many of my Agathiyar
                              > > postings. He
                              > > > > was feudatory chief of Sethu Naadu.
                              > > > > > Sethu naadu is the present Ramanathapuram district. Initially, it
                              > was
                              > > > > under the Nayakkar kingdom of Madurai.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Kilzvan extended its boundaries and created the Pudukkottai state.
                              > > His
                              > > > > descendants created the Sivagangai state.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > He refused to pay tribute and became a de facto ruler of his state
                              > of
                              > > > > Sethu naadu. He defeated the forces and killed the general of Rani
                              > > Mangamma,
                              > > > > the Nayakkar queen of Madurai Naadu.
                              > > > > > Two years ago, a Spanish coin collector sent me a scanned image of
                              > a
                              > > > > copper coin.
                              > > > > > It was identified as a coin of Sethu Nadu minted by Kilzavan
                              > > Sethupathi.
                              > > > > > Another direct pointer.....
                              > > > > > I have also mentioned a lot about a certain Siva Temple in Sivapuri
                              > > in
                              > > > > Sivagangai district.
                              > > > > > This Sivapuri temple has a kalvettu which was issued by the
                              > > Sethupathi in
                              > > > > his own name.
                              > > > > > A direct proof of the Sethunadu being an independant kingdom by
                              > > itself.
                              > > > > > This is the only proper kalvettu belonging to the Sethupathis.
                              > > > > > The separation of Sethunadu which was of utmost strategic
                              > importance
                              > > > > unbalanced the very existance of the MaduraiNaadu of the Nayakkars.
                              > > > > > The future path for Tamilnadu was altered.
                              > > > > > But this kalvettu is a very rare one.
                              > > > > > Nobody at present knows even its very existance.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Regards
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > JayBee
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > =========================
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >
                              >


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Nandakumar Selvaraj
                              Thanks a lot. I was refering to this inscription.   Regards Nanda http://jobdealsinfo.ning.com ________________________________ From: jaybee555
                              Message 14 of 17 , Oct 5, 2009
                                Thanks a lot. I was refering to this inscription.
                                 


                                Regards

                                Nanda
                                http://jobdealsinfo.ning.com





                                ________________________________
                                From: jaybee555 <jaybee555@...>
                                To: agathiyar@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Sun, 4 October, 2009 6:17:04 PM
                                Subject: [agathiyar] Re: Top 10 Kalvettus? (English)

                                 


                                --- In agathiyar@yahoogrou ps.com, Jean-Luc Chevillard <jean-luc.chevillar d@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Dear Sir,
                                >
                                > is this an inscription distinct from the one
                                > for which Iravatham Mahadevan
                                > [Early Tamil Epigraphy, 2003, page 475]
                                > gives the reading:
                                >
                                > எக்காட்டூரு
                                > க்கோன்பெருந்தசன்
                                >
                                > Or is it the same inscription but with a different reading

                                Dear Mon.Chevillard

                                It is the same inscription.
                                I gave Iravadham Mahadevan's reading of this inscription
                                made in a small publication which was distributed at the Seminar
                                on Archeology held in Madurai in 1970 or 71.
                                Kamban adi podi Saa.Ganesan ofKaraikudi has also read it as such.
                                IM must have revised it and given a newer reading as 'Perundhacan' .

                                Regards

                                JayBee

                                >
                                > Thanks for clarifying
                                >
                                > Best wishes
                                >
                                > -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris)
                                >
                                >
                                > jaybee555 a écrit :
                                > > --- In agathiyar@yahoogrou ps.com, Nandakumar Selvaraj <snandaakumar@ > wrote:
                                > >
                                > >> VJ,
                                > >>
                                > >> I am quoting from memory, so I could be wrong too. I was trying to find the link to the inscription, unfortunately could not locate it. This is a Brahmi inscription in one of the pillars in pillayarpatti, attesting to the donation of a local cheiftain to the temple.
                                > >>
                                > >
                                > > It reads -
                                > >
                                > > "erukaattuuru kOn
                                > > peruparaNan"
                                > >
                                > > It does not mention any donation. Just the name of a person
                                > > and his town.
                                > > 'peruparaNan was a chieftain or something like that.
                                > > 'erukaattuur' was an ancient town. One of the Sangam
                                > > personalities bears the town's name. It was around during
                                > > the Sangam Era. And it still was around during later times.
                                > > The town was in North Pandya country.
                                > > Incidentally 'peruparaNan' also happens to be a Snagm Age name.
                                > > It went out of use during the later times.
                                > >
                                > > Regards
                                > >
                                > > JayBee
                                > >
                                > > As we all know Tamil-Brahmi' s last usage to be around 400AD, which is 200 years + ahead of Vatapi invasion of Narasimha pallava, proving that Ganesha was widespread in tamilnadu even before the said arrival of Ganesha.
                                > >
                                > >> Regards
                                > >>
                                > >> Nanda
                                > >> http://jobdealsinfo .ning.com
                                > >>
                                > >>
                                > >>
                                > >>
                                > >>
                                > >> ____________ _________ _________ __
                                > >> From: vj kumar <vj.episteme@ >
                                > >> To: agathiyar@yahoogrou ps.com
                                > >> Sent: Thu, 1 October, 2009 7:51:01 PM
                                > >> Subject: Re: [agathiyar] Top 10 Kalvettus? (English)
                                > >>
                                > >>
                                > >> Hi nanda
                                > >>
                                > >> Can you elaborate on the pillayarpatti inscription
                                > >>
                                > >> Rgds
                                > >> Vj
                                > >>
                                > >> On 10/1/09, Nandakumar Selvaraj <snandaakumar@ yahoo.co. in> wrote:
                                > >>
                                > >>> Dear Sir,
                                > >>>
                                > >>> Looks like we still do not have epigraphical evidence of inter-caste
                                > >>> marriage.
                                > >>>
                                > >>> My list would look like this:
                                > >>>
                                > >>> 1. Brahmi inscription of satyaputras
                                > >>> 2. Ashokan inscription mentioni ng kingdoms outside his reign.
                                > >>> 3. Kharavela inscription of defeating the confederacy of tamil kings.
                                > >>> 4. Brahmi inscription in Pillayar patti, denoting that the site was
                                > >>> excavated at 2AD & Pillayar himself was present in south india, even before
                                > >>> the vatapi invasion.
                                > >>>
                                > >>>
                                > >>>
                                > >>> Regards
                                > >>>
                                > >>> Nanda
                                > >>> http://jobdealsinfo .ning.com
                                > >>>
                                > >>>
                                > >>>
                                > >>>
                                > >>>
                                > >>> ____________ _________ _________ __
                                > >>> From: jaybee555 <jaybee555@yahoo. com>
                                > >>> To: agathiyar@yahoogrou ps.com
                                > >>> Sent: Thursday, 1 October, 2009 5:47:27 AM
                                > >>> Subject: [agathiyar] Top 10 Kalvettus? (English)
                                > >>>
                                > >>>
                                > >>> Dear Agathiyarians/ VJ,
                                > >>>
                                > >>> Regarding the top 5 or 10 most impactful incriptions, I am eager to know
                                > >>> which incriptions you will choose, VJ.
                                > >>> I can guess a few.
                                > >>> UththiramErUr might be one of them?
                                > >>>
                                > >>> Honestly I could not judge. Because the yardstick for the impactfulness of
                                > >>> the kalvettus vary according to the persons.
                                > >>> As I said, the VELvikudi grants are important for proving the existence of
                                > >>> Sangam and the Pandya king Pal-yaaga-saalai Mudhu-kudumi Peru-valzudhi. It
                                > >>> also throws a light on the Kalabras inter-regnum.
                                > >>> The Tanjavur kalvettu of Rajendra proves that the Cholzas were able to
                                > >>> vanquish a very powerful, maritime, productive, thallasocratic mega-empire
                                > >>> with a naval blitz krieg.
                                > >>>
                                > >>> But I have seen many kalvettus which revealed some events which affected the
                                > >>> history of Tamilnadu.
                                > >>>
                                > >>> I have mentioned Kilzavan Sethupathi in many of my Agathiyar postings. He
                                > >>> was feudatory chief of Sethu Naadu.
                                > >>> Sethu naadu is the present Ramanathapuram district. Initially, it was under
                                > >>> the Nayakkar kingdom of Madurai.
                                > >>>
                                > >>> Kilzvan extended its boundaries and created the Pudukkottai state. His
                                > >>> descendants created the Sivagangai state.
                                > >>>
                                > >>> He refused to pay tribute and became a de facto ruler of his state of Sethu
                                > >>> naadu. He defeated the forces and killed the general of Rani Mangamma, the
                                > >>> Nayakkar queen of Madurai Naadu.
                                > >>> Two years ago, a Spanish coin collector sent me a scanned image of a copper
                                > >>> coin.
                                > >>> It was identified as a coin of Sethu Nadu minted by Kilzavan Sethupathi.
                                > >>> Another direct pointer.....
                                > >>> I have also mentioned a lot about a certain Siva Temple in Sivapuri in
                                > >>> Sivagangai district.
                                > >>> This Sivapuri temple has a kalvettu which was issued by the Sethupathi in
                                > >>> his own name.
                                > >>> A direct proof of the Sethunadu being an independant kingdom by itself.
                                > >>> This is the only proper kalvettu belonging to the Sethupathis.
                                > >>> The separation of Sethunadu which was of utmost strategic importance
                                > >>> unbalanced the very existance of the MaduraiNaadu of the Nayakkars.
                                > >>> The future path for Tamilnadu was altered.
                                > >>> But this kalvettu is a very rare one.
                                > >>> Nobody at present knows even its very existance.
                                > >>>
                                > >>> Regards
                                > >>>
                                > >>> JayBee
                                > >>>
                                > >>> ============ ========= ====
                                > >>>
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >





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                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Nandakumar Selvaraj
                                Just to pick up the thread.was able to find the link to http://www.varalaaru.com/Default.asp?articleid=607 about the எருக்காட்டூர்
                                Message 15 of 17 , Oct 21, 2009
                                  Just to pick up the thread.was able to find the link to http://www.varalaaru.com/Default.asp?articleid=607 about the எருக்காட்டூர் inscription.

                                  whew!!.

                                  Sorry i had wrongly mentioned it as 4th century AD, it supposedly 6th century AD.


                                  Regards

                                  Nanda
                                  http://jobdealsinfo.ning.com





                                  ________________________________
                                  From: vj kumar <vj.episteme@...>
                                  To: agathiyar@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Mon, 5 October, 2009 8:04:30 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [agathiyar] Re: Top 10 Kalvettus? (English)


                                  dear sir

                                  though not my field of study, attempting to answer.

                                  This is from a presentation given to us by Sri Swaminathan as part of the
                                  ponniyin selvan group in December 2008, this was a kind of his guide or
                                  overview to reading the monumental work

                                  Early Tamil Epigraphy
                                  From the Earliest Times to the 6th Century AD
                                  By
                                  Iravatham Mahadevan
                                  ############ ######### ########
                                  The earliest inscription in tamil Brahmi is the mangulam inscription. Its
                                  dated to 2nd C BC.

                                  Slide 53
                                  kaNiy nanta’asiriy’I kuv’ankE dammam ittA’a neTuncazhiyan
                                  paNa’an kaDal’an vazhuttiy koTuppitta’a paLiy

                                  Meaning:

                                  This is the charity to nanta-siri kuvan, the kaNi; the bed was caused to be
                                  carved by kaTalan vazhuti, the servant of neTunchezhian.

                                  ############ ######### #########
                                  Most of the early tamil inscriptions are denoting donations for Jain caves
                                  and cutting beds for them into rock. I think what Dr was asking is, why and
                                  how you distinguish jains and tamils. These inscriptions are works of
                                  charity cut by tamil sounding names / people /kings for Jains.

                                  rgds
                                  vj

                                  http://www.poetryin stone.in
                                  Here the language of stone surpasses the language of man

                                  On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 11:20 PM, K Lakshmanan <lakshmanan.kk@ gmail.com>wrote:

                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Exactly. I am seeking help here. Is it Prakrit? Or is it Tamil?
                                  >
                                  > Were Jains confining their communication to Prakrit? To pass on messages to
                                  > near ones knowing the Shaiva Majority around them ?
                                  >
                                  > Is there a Jain inscription in Tamil? Readable by India's Arch society?
                                  >
                                  > Help please.
                                  >
                                  > KL
                                  >
                                  > On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 3:57 AM, jaybee555 <jaybee555@yahoo. com<jaybee555%40yahoo. com>>
                                  > wrote:
                                  >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In agathiyar@yahoogrou ps.com <agathiyar%40yahoog roups.com> <agathiyar%
                                  > 40yahoogroups. com>, K
                                  >
                                  > > Lakshmanan <lakshmanan. kk@...> wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Dear All,
                                  > > > Yaanai Malai. Near TNAU Madurai. There is a inscription. Do any one of
                                  > > you
                                  > > > have any knowledge about that?
                                  > > >
                                  > > > It is not Tamil. Jain. There is a small pond as well on top of Yanai
                                  > > Malai
                                  > > > with a five seater :-)
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Any idea what the ins is about?
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Lax
                                  > >
                                  > > I thought the Jains in and around Yaanai Malai WERE Tamils?
                                  > > How do we differentiate between Tamil and Jain?
                                  > >
                                  > > Regards
                                  > >
                                  > > JayBee
                                  > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 3:06 PM, Jean-Luc Chevillard <
                                  > > > jean-luc.chevillard @...> wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Dear all,
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > my interpretation of this thread is that "looking for the Top Ten
                                  > > தமிழ௠கà¯
                                  > > > > கல௠வெட௠ட௠" simply means that:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > -- one is looking for the best arguments in order to convince the
                                  > > > > younger generation that Fact-based history is important
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > -- one thinks that some of them will end up acquiring some volumes of
                                  > > > > the Sii (South Indian Inscriptions) and read them
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > -- one thinks that some of them will become subscribers to
                                  > > ஆவணம௠(Avanam,
                                  > > > > Journal of the Tamil Nadu Archaeological Society, Thanjavur), which
                                  > was
                                  > > > > started in 1991
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > -- one thinks it is useful to possess such books as the 2-volume
                                  > > "தமிழ௠கà¯
                                  > > > > கல௠வெட௠ட௠ச௠சொல௠லகராதி"
                                  > [2002,
                                  > > published by SANTI SADHANA (Charitable
                                  > > > > Trust), Chennai]
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > -- etc.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Given all that, the following are also quite important:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > -- the பூலாங௠க௠றிச௠சி inscription (see
                                  > > ஆவணம௠, issue 1, page 57-69)
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > -- the இளையான௠ப௠த௠தூர௠inscriptions (see
                                  > > ஆவணம௠, issue 18, page 1-15)
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Regards
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris)
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > <http://www.linguist .univ-paris- diderot.fr/ ~chevilla/<http://www.linguist .univ-paris- diderot.fr/ %7Echevilla/>
                                  > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > jaybee555 a écrit :
                                  > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > > Dear Agathiyarians/ VJ,
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Regarding the top 5 or 10 most impactful incriptions, I am eager to
                                  > > know
                                  > > > > which incriptions you will choose, VJ.
                                  > > > > > I can guess a few.
                                  > > > > > UththiramErUr might be one of them?
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Honestly I could not judge. Because the yardstick for the
                                  > > impactfulness
                                  > > > > of the kalvettus vary according to the persons.
                                  > > > > > As I said, the VELvikudi grants are important for proving the
                                  > > existence
                                  > > > > of Sangam and the Pandya king Pal-yaaga-saalai Mudhu-kudumi
                                  > > Peru-valzudhi.
                                  > > > > It also throws a light on the Kalabras inter-regnum.
                                  > > > > > The Tanjavur kalvettu of Rajendra proves that the Cholzas were able
                                  > > to
                                  > > > > vanquish a very powerful, maritime, productive, thallasocratic
                                  > > mega-empire
                                  > > > > with a naval blitz krieg.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > But I have seen many kalvettus which revealed some events which
                                  > > affected
                                  > > > > the history of Tamilnadu.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > I have mentioned Kilzavan Sethupathi in many of my Agathiyar
                                  > > postings. He
                                  > > > > was feudatory chief of Sethu Naadu.
                                  > > > > > Sethu naadu is the present Ramanathapuram district. Initially, it
                                  > was
                                  > > > > under the Nayakkar kingdom of Madurai.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Kilzvan extended its boundaries and created the Pudukkottai state.
                                  > > His
                                  > > > > descendants created the Sivagangai state.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > He refused to pay tribute and became a de facto ruler of his state
                                  > of
                                  > > > > Sethu naadu. He defeated the forces and killed the general of Rani
                                  > > Mangamma,
                                  > > > > the Nayakkar queen of Madurai Naadu.
                                  > > > > > Two years ago, a Spanish coin collector sent me a scanned image of
                                  > a
                                  > > > > copper coin.
                                  > > > > > It was identified as a coin of Sethu Nadu minted by Kilzavan
                                  > > Sethupathi.
                                  > > > > > Another direct pointer.....
                                  > > > > > I have also mentioned a lot about a certain Siva Temple in Sivapuri
                                  > > in
                                  > > > > Sivagangai district.
                                  > > > > > This Sivapuri temple has a kalvettu which was issued by the
                                  > > Sethupathi in
                                  > > > > his own name.
                                  > > > > > A direct proof of the Sethunadu being an independant kingdom by
                                  > > itself.
                                  > > > > > This is the only proper kalvettu belonging to the Sethupathis.
                                  > > > > > The separation of Sethunadu which was of utmost strategic
                                  > importance
                                  > > > > unbalanced the very existance of the MaduraiNaadu of the Nayakkars.
                                  > > > > > The future path for Tamilnadu was altered.
                                  > > > > > But this kalvettu is a very rare one.
                                  > > > > > Nobody at present knows even its very existance.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Regards
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > JayBee
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > ============ ========= ====
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • jaybee555
                                  ... Good work. The catastophe s that destroyed the Sangam Era society took place in the 3rd century AD. Then the foreigners came. It took 10 generations before
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Oct 21, 2009
                                    --- In agathiyar@yahoogroups.com, Nandakumar Selvaraj <snandaakumar@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Just to pick up the thread.was able to find the link to http://www.varalaaru.com/Default.asp?articleid=607 about the எருக்காட்டூர் inscription.
                                    >
                                    > whew!!.
                                    >
                                    > Sorry i had wrongly mentioned it as 4th century AD, it supposedly 6th century AD.
                                    > Regards
                                    > Nanda


                                    Good work.
                                    The catastophe's that destroyed
                                    the Sangam Era society took place in the
                                    3rd century AD.
                                    Then the foreigners came.
                                    It took 10 generations before the
                                    indigenous Tamils could pick up again.
                                    But it is the Brahmi letters that throw the
                                    spanner into the machinery.
                                    The script is early.
                                    That means the wall was earlier.
                                    That means the edifice was also earlier.

                                    When you have the time, make it a point to
                                    go to Pillaiyarpatti and KunRakudi. And also
                                    to Mahipalanpatti - PuunggunRam.

                                    Regards

                                    JayBee

                                    ===================




                                    > http://jobdealsinfo.ning.com








                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ________________________________
                                    > From: vj kumar <vj.episteme@...>
                                    > To: agathiyar@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Sent: Mon, 5 October, 2009 8:04:30 AM
                                    > Subject: Re: [agathiyar] Re: Top 10 Kalvettus? (English)
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > dear sir
                                    >
                                    > though not my field of study, attempting to answer.
                                    >
                                    > This is from a presentation given to us by Sri Swaminathan as part of the
                                    > ponniyin selvan group in December 2008, this was a kind of his guide or
                                    > overview to reading the monumental work
                                    >
                                    > Early Tamil Epigraphy
                                    > From the Earliest Times to the 6th Century AD
                                    > By
                                    > Iravatham Mahadevan
                                    > ############ ######### ########
                                    > The earliest inscription in tamil Brahmi is the mangulam inscription. Its
                                    > dated to 2nd C BC.
                                    >
                                    > Slide 53
                                    > kaNiy nanta’asiriy’I kuv’ankE dammam ittA’a neTuncazhiyan
                                    > paNa’an kaDal’an vazhuttiy koTuppitta’a paLiy
                                    >
                                    > Meaning:
                                    >
                                    > This is the charity to nanta-siri kuvan, the kaNi; the bed was caused to be
                                    > carved by kaTalan vazhuti, the servant of neTunchezhian.
                                    >
                                    > ############ ######### #########
                                    > Most of the early tamil inscriptions are denoting donations for Jain caves
                                    > and cutting beds for them into rock. I think what Dr was asking is, why and
                                    > how you distinguish jains and tamils. These inscriptions are works of
                                    > charity cut by tamil sounding names / people /kings for Jains.
                                    >
                                    > rgds
                                    > vj
                                    >
                                    > http://www.poetryin stone.in
                                    > Here the language of stone surpasses the language of man
                                    >
                                    > On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 11:20 PM, K Lakshmanan <lakshmanan.kk@ gmail.com>wrote:
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Exactly. I am seeking help here. Is it Prakrit? Or is it Tamil?
                                    > >
                                    > > Were Jains confining their communication to Prakrit? To pass on messages to
                                    > > near ones knowing the Shaiva Majority around them ?
                                    > >
                                    > > Is there a Jain inscription in Tamil? Readable by India's Arch society?
                                    > >
                                    > > Help please.
                                    > >
                                    > > KL
                                    > >
                                    > > On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 3:57 AM, jaybee555 <jaybee555@yahoo. com<jaybee555%40yahoo. com>>
                                    > > wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --- In agathiyar@yahoogrou ps.com <agathiyar%40yahoog roups.com> <agathiyar%
                                    > > 40yahoogroups. com>, K
                                    > >
                                    > > > Lakshmanan <lakshmanan. kk@> wrote:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Dear All,
                                    > > > > Yaanai Malai. Near TNAU Madurai. There is a inscription. Do any one of
                                    > > > you
                                    > > > > have any knowledge about that?
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > It is not Tamil. Jain. There is a small pond as well on top of Yanai
                                    > > > Malai
                                    > > > > with a five seater :-)
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Any idea what the ins is about?
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Lax
                                    > > >
                                    > > > I thought the Jains in and around Yaanai Malai WERE Tamils?
                                    > > > How do we differentiate between Tamil and Jain?
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Regards
                                    > > >
                                    > > > JayBee
                                    > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 3:06 PM, Jean-Luc Chevillard <
                                    > > > > jean-luc.chevillard @...> wrote:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Dear all,
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > my interpretation of this thread is that "looking for the Top Ten
                                    > > > தமிழ௠கà¯
                                    > > > > > கல௠வெட௠ட௠" simply means that:
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > -- one is looking for the best arguments in order to convince the
                                    > > > > > younger generation that Fact-based history is important
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > -- one thinks that some of them will end up acquiring some volumes of
                                    > > > > > the Sii (South Indian Inscriptions) and read them
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > -- one thinks that some of them will become subscribers to
                                    > > > ஆவணம௠(Avanam,
                                    > > > > > Journal of the Tamil Nadu Archaeological Society, Thanjavur), which
                                    > > was
                                    > > > > > started in 1991
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > -- one thinks it is useful to possess such books as the 2-volume
                                    > > > "தமிழ௠கà¯
                                    > > > > > கல௠வெட௠ட௠ச௠சொல௠லகராதி"
                                    > > [2002,
                                    > > > published by SANTI SADHANA (Charitable
                                    > > > > > Trust), Chennai]
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > -- etc.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Given all that, the following are also quite important:
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > -- the பூலாங௠க௠றிச௠சி inscription (see
                                    > > > ஆவணம௠, issue 1, page 57-69)
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > -- the இளையான௠ப௠த௠தூர௠inscriptions (see
                                    > > > ஆவணம௠, issue 18, page 1-15)
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Regards
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris)
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > <http://www.linguist .univ-paris- diderot.fr/ ~chevilla/<http://www.linguist .univ-paris- diderot.fr/ %7Echevilla/>
                                    > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > jaybee555 a écrit :
                                    > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > Dear Agathiyarians/ VJ,
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > Regarding the top 5 or 10 most impactful incriptions, I am eager to
                                    > > > know
                                    > > > > > which incriptions you will choose, VJ.
                                    > > > > > > I can guess a few.
                                    > > > > > > UththiramErUr might be one of them?
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > Honestly I could not judge. Because the yardstick for the
                                    > > > impactfulness
                                    > > > > > of the kalvettus vary according to the persons.
                                    > > > > > > As I said, the VELvikudi grants are important for proving the
                                    > > > existence
                                    > > > > > of Sangam and the Pandya king Pal-yaaga-saalai Mudhu-kudumi
                                    > > > Peru-valzudhi.
                                    > > > > > It also throws a light on the Kalabras inter-regnum.
                                    > > > > > > The Tanjavur kalvettu of Rajendra proves that the Cholzas were able
                                    > > > to
                                    > > > > > vanquish a very powerful, maritime, productive, thallasocratic
                                    > > > mega-empire
                                    > > > > > with a naval blitz krieg.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > But I have seen many kalvettus which revealed some events which
                                    > > > affected
                                    > > > > > the history of Tamilnadu.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > I have mentioned Kilzavan Sethupathi in many of my Agathiyar
                                    > > > postings. He
                                    > > > > > was feudatory chief of Sethu Naadu.
                                    > > > > > > Sethu naadu is the present Ramanathapuram district. Initially, it
                                    > > was
                                    > > > > > under the Nayakkar kingdom of Madurai.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > Kilzvan extended its boundaries and created the Pudukkottai state.
                                    > > > His
                                    > > > > > descendants created the Sivagangai state.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > He refused to pay tribute and became a de facto ruler of his state
                                    > > of
                                    > > > > > Sethu naadu. He defeated the forces and killed the general of Rani
                                    > > > Mangamma,
                                    > > > > > the Nayakkar queen of Madurai Naadu.
                                    > > > > > > Two years ago, a Spanish coin collector sent me a scanned image of
                                    > > a
                                    > > > > > copper coin.
                                    > > > > > > It was identified as a coin of Sethu Nadu minted by Kilzavan
                                    > > > Sethupathi.
                                    > > > > > > Another direct pointer.....
                                    > > > > > > I have also mentioned a lot about a certain Siva Temple in Sivapuri
                                    > > > in
                                    > > > > > Sivagangai district.
                                    > > > > > > This Sivapuri temple has a kalvettu which was issued by the
                                    > > > Sethupathi in
                                    > > > > > his own name.
                                    > > > > > > A direct proof of the Sethunadu being an independant kingdom by
                                    > > > itself.
                                    > > > > > > This is the only proper kalvettu belonging to the Sethupathis.
                                    > > > > > > The separation of Sethunadu which was of utmost strategic
                                    > > importance
                                    > > > > > unbalanced the very existance of the MaduraiNaadu of the Nayakkars.
                                    > > > > > > The future path for Tamilnadu was altered.
                                    > > > > > > But this kalvettu is a very rare one.
                                    > > > > > > Nobody at present knows even its very existance.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > Regards
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > JayBee
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > ============ ========= ====
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > >
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                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
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