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Re: [agathiyar] Re: Mahathma Gandhi's memorial

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  • amala singh
    Mahatma Gandhi can be compared to Columbus who in America portrayed as a Hero by invaders and Villain by American natives because he was the major reason
    Message 1 of 13 , Feb 1, 2004
      Mahatma Gandhi can be compared to Columbus
      who in America portrayed as a Hero by invaders
      and Villain by American natives because he was
      the major reason behind the destruction of
      culture & history of American natives.

      Though Mahatma Gandhi didnt do anything to
      destroy the culture & heritage of the people of
      Pakistan, he was the hero of the predominant
      Hindu group and hence always considered to be
      a Hindu leader by people of Pakistan than a Leader of people of India & Pakistan.

      Mahatma Gandhi was slightly different from other
      Congress Leaders that time Nehru & Co. He had never been a politician that time. People of Pakistan should
      appreciate him for that.


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Vidya Jayaraman
      To: agathiyar@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 6:58 AM
      Subject: [agathiyar] Re: Mahathma Gandhi's memorial


      >> >How is it in Pakistan?
      Indian history should not be different from
      Pakistan's, but how is history projected to the younger generation in
      Pakistan?

      >>No idea. They must be having their own version of history.
      The Indians look upon Prithvi Raj Chauhan as a hero. The Pakistanis
      look upon Mohammed Ghaur as a hero

      Each nation has its own emphasis on what it stands for,just like
      Freedom of Speech and the New world has been precious to America.
      For Pakistan it has been 'A separate identity apart from India'.So
      It depends on whether you don the spectacles-of-identity or the
      spectacles-of-difference.

      The proud place of the IndusValley civilization started.
      Being Part of the Iranian Empire.
      The land where the Greek and Bactrian civilization influenced.
      The place where Buddhism and the art of Gandhara flourished.
      The Huns, Ghaznavids,Ghorid and Quabacha etc

      Frankly speaking only after these periods do we have the current
      Pakistan coming under a central Indian or North-Indian or a Delhi and
      vicinity-based rule.So logically speaking it is pretty easy to
      establish that Pakistan has always been a separate part from India
      culturally.

      Just my 2c of objective opinionation.



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    • S.Gokul
      Anbulla Dr.JB aiya matrum agathiyam neyargalukku Shall we say that Dr.JB has opened up a pandora s box ? I have changed the subject heading to reflect the
      Message 2 of 13 , Feb 1, 2004
        Anbulla Dr.JB aiya matrum agathiyam neyargalukku

        Shall we say that Dr.JB has opened up a pandora's box ? I have
        changed the subject heading to reflect the matter we are discussing
        here.

        There are 2 things in this mail which we need to discuss.

        1. How history is bent / viewed as per one's own bias and how it
        affects a whole lot of people / a generation altogether.

        2. Unanswered questions in chola history - which have been raised by
        Dr.JB in the context of issue 1.

        I will share my initial thoughts here. Hopefully, what has been
        initiated by Dr.JB should inspire a series of interesting discussions.

        > Kalki makes these four people into members of the
        > Thennavan AapadhuthavigaL - Personal Body Guards of the Pandya.
        > But were they so?

        Most likely not. Their title suggests that they held high office in
        uttama chola period. The udaiyargudi inscriptions call
        them "Throgigalaana" which means those who were fed by the chola
        hands and who became traitors. The name "ravidaasan" points to chera
        origins.
        > Sundara made his own son, Adithya as the legal
        > heir to the throne - crown prince. He did not have any intention
        > to give back the throne to Uththama.

        Kalki gives some explanation but we do not know - historically why
        this was the case.

        > Adithya was murdered. Nobody got punished.

        PROBABLY THE MOST INTERESTING PART OF THIS WHOLE SERIES. Infact it is
        this which inspired ponniyin selvan. The thiruvalangadu copper plates
        also mention the murder of aditya so indirectly :
        " Aditya (the sun) set. The whole world was surrounded by the
        darkness of kali"

        The darkness refers to the confution that prevailed after his death -
        probably.


        > Sundara died
        > of a broken heart. He was forced to leave PalziyaaRai, the capital
        city,
        > which was refurbished, beautified, and expanded by Sundara who
        > named it as Nandhi Puram. He breathed his last in the Golden Palace
        > of Kanchi, which was also built for himself.

        There has been some very interesting research by Thiru.Kudavoil
        Balasubramanyam of Thanjai saraswathi mahal. He claims to have found
        the pallipadai of sundara chola. It is not the pallava kanchi as we
        all thought. "Pon maaligai" did'nt exist there. There is a whole
        series of inputs by Mr.Sundar bharatwaj in this reg. In ponniyin
        selvan egroup.


        > After Sundara died, Uththama came to power. RajaRaja was
        > made into the crown prince. But Uththama had his own son named
        > Maduranthaka Cholza.

        His name was mathuranthakan kandarathitha chozha.

        > And nobody was caught or punished for Adithya's murder.
        > After a rule of 14 years, Uththama passed away.

        There are no records to confirm that uttama expired. He 'simply
        vanishes' from history. But historians normally assume death when the
        king's records start disappearing. In uttama's case..??

        > RajaRaja came to power in 985 AD.

        Rajaraja actually shares the throne with Uttama chola for 2 years
        before becoming the king. AND...AFTER RAJARAJA CAME TO POWER, THERE
        IS A THIRUNALLAM RECORD OF SEMBIYAN MAADEVI READING " FOR THE WELFARE
        OF UTTAMA CHOLA AND HIS FAMILY...". Mr.SB is really an authority on
        this subject - he can quote the exact inscription.

        > Not Maduranthaka.

        DO YOU KNOW WHEN WAS RAJARAJA MADE A CROWN PRINCE ???

        > Rajendra, the son of RajaRaja was already a grown man.
        > He was the commander-in-chief when the Cholza forces attacked
        > the impregnable fortress of Udhagai just four years after RajaRaja
        > came to power.

        WHAT IS THE EVIDENCE ? HOW CAN WE JUDGE THE AGE OF RAJENDRA ? How do
        we know that he participated in udagai campaign ? The udagai stuff is
        actually from an indirect reference in Moovar ula of otta koothar.
        That's all. No epigraphic evidence.

        > But Rajendra was not made the crown prince.
        > And Maduranthaka was appointed as a high official who
        > was in charge of checking the accounts of the temples.

        Periya koil records state about a guy called "Mathuranthakan
        Kandarathithan" and SADASIVA PANDARATHAR "ASSUMES" THAT THIS IS THE
        SON OF UTTAMA. DO WE HAVE ANY MATERIAL WHICH
        STATES "MATHURANTHAKA...SON OF UTTAMA..." ?? I am not sure.

        > During RajaRaja's rule, Revidasan and company were fined
        > a certain sum which they had to donate to a temple as a reprisal
        > for the murder of Adithya.

        Their lands were confiscated. Actually there are many other
        inscriptions in udaiyargudi which have a link with this murder. Mr.SB
        is again an authority in this - he should write.

        > When RajaRaja reached his twenty-seventh year of rule,
        > Rajendra became the crown prince.
        > Not Maduranthaka.

        How should rajendra be made as a crown prince at such a late stage ??

        > Two years later RajaRaja is not heard of.

        ANOTHER GREAT MYSTERY. THE DEATH OF RAJARAJA IS NOT AT ALL RECORDED
        CLEARLY. NOT A SINGLE AUTHENTIC IMAGE OR SCULPTURE OF THIS GREAT KING
        IS AVAILABLE TO US !!! NOT EVEN IN PERIYA KOIL !!!


        > Rajendra, after coming to power, does not stay in the
        > Imperial capital, Tanjavur where his father ruled from; neither the
        > traditional capital of PalzaiyaaRai from where his own grandfather
        ruled.
        > Nor URaiyuur, the ancient tradtional capital of the Cholzas.
        > He went to Chidhambaram and stayed there for seven years.

        THIS AGAIN BAFFLES ME. WHY CHIDAMBARAM ???? WHY CHIDAMBARAM ALWAYS
        HAD A ROLE TO PLAY ????

        > He built a new capital, Gangai Konda Cholzapuram and
        > moved into that city.

        > Now, what do you make of it.
        > If you were to write a novel and especially you happen to be
        > a Pandya sympathiser.
      • Pavithra Srinivasan
        Dear all, Gokul, you ve given all the arguments I d thought up:-)). ... it is this which inspired ponniyin selvan. The thiruvalangadu copper ... K.A.N says
        Message 3 of 13 , Feb 1, 2004
          Dear all,

          Gokul, you've given all the arguments I'd thought up:-)).

          > > Adithya was murdered. Nobody got punished.
          > > PROBABLY THE MOST INTERESTING PART OF THIS WHOLE SERIES. Infact
          it is this which inspired ponniyin selvan. The thiruvalangadu copper
          plates also mention the murder of aditya so indirectly :
          > " Aditya (the sun) set. The whole world was surrounded by the
          > darkness of kali" The darkness refers to the confution that
          >prevailed after his death - probably.

          K.A.N says that the Thiruvalangadu plates seem to gloss over these
          events - making enigmatic statements. Kalki seems to have followed
          the same course in PS.

          > > Now, what do you make of it.
          > > If you were to write a novel and especially you happen to
          be a Pandya sympathiser.

          If I were a Pandyan sympathiser ...

          I'd try to make it clear that Uthama Chozha had indeed been
          responsible for Adhitya Karikalan's murder. He stood to benefit the
          most, after all. ["...He formed a party of his own, and brought about
          the murder of Adithya II (Adhitha Karikalan), and having done so, he
          forced the hands of Sundara Cola to make him heir apparent..." -
          K.A.N.]Incidentally, that's the stand Balakumaran has taken, in his
          novel 'Udaiyar'.

          Cheers,
          Pavithra.
        • Pavithra Srinivasan
          Dear all, Gokul, you ve given all the arguments I d thought up:-)). ... it is this which inspired ponniyin selvan. The thiruvalangadu copper ... K.A.N says
          Message 4 of 13 , Feb 1, 2004
            Dear all,

            Gokul, you've given all the arguments I'd thought up:-)).

            > > Adithya was murdered. Nobody got punished.
            > > PROBABLY THE MOST INTERESTING PART OF THIS WHOLE SERIES. Infact
            it is this which inspired ponniyin selvan. The thiruvalangadu copper
            plates also mention the murder of aditya so indirectly :
            > " Aditya (the sun) set. The whole world was surrounded by the
            > darkness of kali" The darkness refers to the confution that
            >prevailed after his death - probably.

            K.A.N says that the Thiruvalangadu plates seem to gloss over these
            events - making enigmatic statements. Kalki seems to have followed
            the same course in PS.

            > > Now, what do you make of it.
            > > If you were to write a novel and especially you happen to
            be a Pandya sympathiser.

            If I were a Pandyan sympathiser ...

            I'd try to make it clear that Uthama Chozha had indeed been
            responsible for Adhitya Karikalan's murder. He stood to benefit the
            most, after all. ["...He formed a party of his own, and brought about
            the murder of Adithya II (Adhitha Karikalan), and having done so, he
            forced the hands of Sundara Cola to make him heir apparent..." -
            K.A.N.]Incidentally, that's the stand Balakumaran has taken, in his
            novel 'Udaiyar'.

            Cheers,
            Pavithra.
          • S.Gokul
            ... he ... It is very interesting to read the counter arguements raised by sadasiva pandarathar who felt strongly that uttama was innocent. He mentions
            Message 5 of 13 , Feb 2, 2004
              > "...He formed a party of his own, and brought about
              > the murder of Adithya II (Adhitha Karikalan), and having done so,
              he
              > forced the hands of Sundara Cola to make him heir apparent..." -
              > K.A.N.

              It is very interesting to read the counter arguements raised by
              sadasiva pandarathar who felt strongly that uttama was innocent. He
              mentions Rajaraja's records which hail uttama in high note. RR also
              named his own son as mathuranthaka (rajendra's another name) to show
              his respect for his chitappa.

              Kalki believed sadasiva pandarathar word by word. Many of the facts /
              poetic quotations in ponniyinselvan are taken straight from
              pandarathar.

              Arguements - counter arguements.. Dr.JB aiya - enna solgireergal ?:-)

              Mikka anbudan
              Gokul.S
            • rrchola
              Dear Gokul, Atlast I found the SI Vol XIII -1 (AR 570 of 1904 ) which Sethuraman mentioned - which KKvn wanted me to recheck a year back...on Uthama: EXTRACT::
              Message 6 of 13 , Feb 4, 2004
                Dear Gokul,
                Atlast I found the SI Vol XIII -1 (AR 570 of 1904 ) which Sethuraman
                mentioned - which KKvn wanted me to recheck a year back...on Uthama:

                EXTRACT:: "TIRUVARUR :: ON THE SOUTHERN WALL OF THE ACHALESVARA
                SHRINE:: THYAGARAJASVAMIN TEMPLE :: This records a gift of two silver
                vessels in which offerings were to be to god Tiruvaraneri-Alvar by
                Udaiyapirattiyar Sembiyan-Madeviyar for the merit of Uttama-
                Choladeva. This is evidently an inscription of the reign of Rajaraja
                I whose uncle was Uttama-Chola, donated in the 2nd Regnl Year of RR
                (986):

                "Swasthishree koprajakesari panmarkku yaandu 2vadhu ..
                sozhamaayilattiyaar menayaka(seyu)Sree Uthamachozhadevarkkaga udaiya
                pirattiyar sree Sembiyan Mahadeviyaar thiruvaraneri azhvarkku amudhu
                seyya thirumeykkappannilavan madhavan kanganiyodun koduthukkaattina
                VELLIYIIN mattathalikalaku nilai .. VELLIYIN KALASAPPANAI..ka alaku
                nilai .. idhu panmaaheswara rakshai..."

                Highlight : Uthamachozha DEVARKKAGA Udaiyapirattiyar Sembiyan
                Madevi .. Thiruvaranai alwarkku Amudhu seyya VELLI MATTATHALI &
                KALASAPPANAI ..."

                According to Sethuraman, Gandratitya (husband of Sembiyanmadevi &
                father of Uthama) came to throne between 23.12.949 & 5.1.950. He was
                alive in 956. Uthama ascended to throne in 969 after AK's
                murder.Means aged around 20 -21. In 986 he should have been in late
                thirties - or early forties. Sembiyanmadevi should have been in mid
                sixties.

                ACCORDING TO THE ABOVE INSCRIPTION, AN ELDERLY MOTHER is donating a
                SILVER KALASAPPANAI (WHICH IS USED FOR FEEDING!) for her son
                UTHAMACHOLA (UTHAMACHOLADEVARKKAGA!) It may be on behalf of OR for
                UTHAMA :

                BUT THE GIFT IS MADE IN THE 2nd REGNL YEAR OF RAJARAJA who was
                sharing the throne with the same Uthama ... Once again read the
                text.. The King's mother is gifiting silver vessel for the King
                himself .. but the gift is just plainly recorded without any decor...

                EXACTLY on the same year, the famous UDAYARKUDI inscription appeared
                calling Ravidasan & co - Drohins...

                And a year after, Uthamachola Pallavarayan is changing his name as
                Rajaraja Pallavarayan...

                VOL XIII : AR 364 of 1924 SI states : TEXT ::QUOTE::"MELAPPALUVUR:
                NORTH WALL: AGASTHISWARA TEMPLE: ..ENDOWMENT for burning a perpetual
                lamp by NAKKAN AKKARANANGAIYAR, the daughter of Devanar of this Thali
                and wife of prince Seramanar. In 385 of 1924, from the same place,
                dated in the 27th year of Rajaraja I, his QUEEN PANCHAVAN MAHADEVI is
                referred to as the daughter of Devanar of Avanikandarppapuram. .. He
                was possibly a feudatory chief holding AN IMPORTANT Position under
                Chola King.... " UNQUOTE.

                Possibly Rajaraja Pallavarayan ....father of Panchavanmadevi @ Nakkan
                Thillayazhagiyar .. (Ms. CHOLA!) According to Venkayya he was also a
                MAGISTRATE...!!

                More or less we look at a possibility that Rajaraja I fumbled on
                certain evidence revealing the murderers of AK with the help of this
                Pallavarayan and his daughter Panchavanmadevi - because of whom
                Drohins were punished and Uthama vanished and RR could declare
                himself as a Chakravarthy - which paved way for uncontested supremacy
                for Rajendra and hence PALLIPPADAI for Panchavanmadevi...!

                Fondly, SB
              • Srinivasan Sankar
                I thank Dr. Jay Bee, Vidhya Jayaraman, Amala Singh, Pavithra and Gokul for having given so much information. with best of regards, Jayanthi ... From: Vidya
                Message 7 of 13 , Feb 4, 2004
                  I thank Dr. Jay Bee, Vidhya Jayaraman, Amala Singh, Pavithra and Gokul
                  for having given so much information.
                  with best of regards,
                  Jayanthi

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Vidya Jayaraman" <vidyajayaram@...>
                  To: <agathiyar@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 2:58 PM
                  Subject: [agathiyar] Re: Mahathma Gandhi's memorial


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