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Re: Our church in Prophecy - Further Evidence 1

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  • Ulicia Unruh
    ... jesmith5@bellsouth.net wrote: (But Rev. 11:18 says the TIME HAS COME TO JUDGE THE DEAD) ************************************************************* There
    Message 1 of 8 , Mar 25, 2004
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      :


      jesmith5@... wrote:

      (But Rev. 11:18 says the TIME HAS COME TO JUDGE THE DEAD)
      *************************************************************
      There is even more evidence folks,

      Ulicia here:

      Yes, there is much more evidence!

      Each of the "sevens" in the first part of Revelation announce the investigative judgment!

       

      First let's look at the SEVEN CHURCHES

      ******************

      Revelation 3:7-8
      "To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things says he that is holy, he that is true, he that has the key of David, he that opens and no man shuts, and shuts and no man opens...Behold, I have set before you an open door, and no man can shut it."

      ***********************

       

      The closed and opened doors are part and parcel of the sanctuary message, and even though not immediately understood in their full light, these messages are an important part of understanding the sanctuary truths.

      In the above quoted text in Revelation 3:7-8 we see Christ, who holds the keys, shutting a door that no man can open, and opening a door which no man can shut. This happens during the Philadelphia period.

      The seven letters to the churches in Revelation two and three, correlate closely with the events of church history.

      Ephesus........ 31-100 A.D........ Apostolic Church
      Smyrna........ 100-313 A.D...... The persecuted Church
      Pergamum...... 313-538 A.D....... The Church is established as the legally recognized church
      Thyatira.......... 538-1520 A.D..... The Church in the middle ages
      Sardis............. 1520- 1798 A.D.... The Reformation rises but stagnates
      Philadelphia.... 1798 -1845 A.D......Time of great revivals, culminating with the Advent movement
      Laodicea......... 1845- to end..... .. The end time church--the judgment church.

      At the time of the sixth church a door was being shut which no man can open, and a door being opened which no man can shut, during the Philadephia period.

      What does this door symbolize? Where is it located?
      Some have tried to explain the open door as missionary opportunities. However doors of missionary opportunity, unfortunately, have a way of being closed by all sorts of people, but the door in Rev.3:7 NO ONE IS ABLE TO SHUT.

      For identification of this open door, it would be wiser to look in Revelation itself. Revelation 4:1 says:
      "Lo, IN HEAVEN, an open door and a voice saying come up here and see what will take place."
      Yes, here we see an open door  into the sanctuary in heaven.

      Revelation 4 shows the beginning of Christ's ministry in the heavenly sanctuary.

      Yet, in our introductory text, we see

      Christ, who has the keys of salvation, close a door and open another door during the Philadephia period.

      What does this signify? We can look in Revelation 11 for our explanation.

      Revelation chapter eleven first refers to the 1260 year period (the prophetic years oft repeated in both Daniel and Revelation as the time of the church's oppressive dominion) It refers to the Old and New Testament (the two witnesses) who have testified in sack cloth for 1260 years and their ultimate humiliation during the revolution but they are restored and receive honour.

      So this brings us to the same period in history as the Philadephia period, for indeed, during this period the Bible was widely distributed and read. AND THEN the seventh trumpet blows and  WE SEE the temple of God being opened!

      But wait a minute, this is centuries after Christ's inauguration which we just read happened much earlier. In Rev. 4:1, the door to the sanctuary was opened at Christ's ascension!

      Is there another door in the temple of God--in the sanctuary of God!

      Yes, this is another door. When the first door was opened in Rev. 4 we saw candles and incense, but now, near the end of earth's history we hear the cry, "the time has come for you to judge, that you should give reward to the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear your name, small and great; and should destroy them which destroy the earth." THE TIME OF JUDGMENT is introduced and THEN the temple is opened and the ARK of the covenant is seen.

      During the time of Philadephia:
      "What He (Christ) opened, no one can shut; and what He (Christ) shuts, no one can open. He knows our deeds, and has placed before us an open door that no one can shut."

      Yet the passage continues to say that those who have received the shut and the open door will be opposed by the "synogogue of Satan" who lie. Are these the ones who try to shut that heavenly door to the Most Holy with lies?
      Yet, those who overcome will be "pillars in the temple of God." Again we see sanctuary imagery.

      Oct. 22, 1844. The door to the Holy Place was closed, and the door to the Most HOLY Place was opened.

      Those who follow Christ into the Most Holy Place are those who receive His Spirit, while those who remain focused only on the ministry of the Holy Place, receive the deceptive spirit. (The message here in Revelation 3 to the Philadephia church is clearly dealing with the battle between those "in the temple of my God" and those "in the synogogue of Satan") We must accept the message given in the Philadelphia period if we would be kept "in the hour of temptation which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." (Rev. 3:10)

      Hold fast to this message and believe that Christ is coming quickly and let no man take your crown! (Rev. 3:11)

       

       


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    • Ulicia Unruh
      Jonathan wrote: Note the question that was asked at the FIFTH SEAL see verse 10,11: Revelation 6:9-11 9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under
      Message 2 of 8 , Mar 25, 2004
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        Jonathan wrote:

        Note the question that was asked at the FIFTH SEAL see verse 10,11:

        Revelation 6:9-11
        9   And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
        10   And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
        11   And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
        ****************************************

        Ulicia here:

        Yes, that is the second set of sevens--

        The investigative judgment is announced in each of the sevens in the first half of Revelation.  We already posted it's announcement in the Philadephian church period.

        What timeline is shown by the seals?

        It is interesting that the first seal shows a white horse! There is a striking parallel here with Rev. 19. The white horse in Rev. 6:1 highlights the victory of Christ on the cross and the spread of His gospel, while the white horse in Rev. 19 shows Christ's victory in the final conquest of evil at the second coming. The other three horses show the steady decline and turning into deadly falsehoods, that precious gospel.

        Then, in the fifth seal, the blood of the martyrs cry out with a loud voice:

        "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" Revelation 6:10

        The four horses of Christiandom have already galloped forth. The era of papal oppression, that little horn "which came up and made war against the saints and prevailed against them" (Dan. 7:21) for 1260 years (Daniel 7:25) has taken it's toll.  NOW THE 1260 years are again at an end but the

         judgment has NOT YET BEGUN?

        Daniel's prophecy has declared that the Ancient of Days would came and judgment would be made in favor of the saints and against the beast (Daniel 7:22,25) after the 1260 day/years.

        Now the injustice done to the sheer number of martyred saints who were slain during those 1260 years, for the word of God and for the testimony which they held, cries out: "How long, O Lord, until You judge?"

        Notice what happens next?

        "Then a white robe was given to each of them."

        Judgment has NOT been going on before this. But NOW their cases are to be investigated.

        They are judged and vindicated. The sentences of the carnal, earthly courts are reversed. They were declared righteous! But they are still dead.
        For

        "it was said that they should rest a little longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed."

        This shows that the investigative judgment began after the tribulation of 1260 years, those martyred during the ages past, are vindicated, but this is not the second coming, for they are told to sleep [the sleep of death] a little longer 

        Till their brethren would join them in the martyr's death--- for in the future there will be another time when the beast will put to death those who follow the word of God. In Revelation 20:4 we read that people will be martyred during the time when the beast and his image try to force their mark on the whole world. Yet, even here the promise is given that they will LIVE and reign with Christ.

        The investigative judgment is after the 1260 years, but it is not at the second coming. The judgment is seen over and over again, to commence after the 1260 day/years of papal corruption and power, but before the second coming--  both the historic line in the churches and in the seals reveals this.

         

         


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      • Ruth
        ... Atonement the trumpets were blown to anounce the Judgment - so it was with the seven trumpets. Thus the 7 trumpets had to be blown between 1798 and 1844 =
        Message 3 of 8 , Mar 26, 2004
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          --- In adventism_prophecy@yahoogroups.com, <jesmith5@b...> wrote:
          >
          > It was the seventh seal that opened the trumpets, and in the Day of
          Atonement the trumpets were blown to anounce the Judgment - so it was
          with the seven trumpets. Thus the 7 trumpets had to be blown between
          1798 and 1844 = 46 years.

          ----------------------

          How can this be?

          Revelation 10 and 11 happen between the sixth and seventh trumpet.
          The seven trumpets do not happen between Revelation 10 and 11?

          I've never heard of the seven trumpets being put between 1798 and
          1844 before. The Advent movement emerged between the sixth and
          seventh trumpet.
        • Ruth
          ... to show a complete fit, so anyone who agrees with the timeline of the churches will find it is the same with the seals and thus at 1517 the judgment was
          Message 4 of 8 , Mar 26, 2004
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            --- In adventism_prophecy@yahoogroups.com, <jesmith5@b...> wrote:
            >
            > Maranatha media did a complete analysis of the churches and seals
            to show a complete fit, so anyone who agrees with the timeline of the
            churches will find it is the same with the seals and thus at 1517 the
            judgment was not yet started.
            >
            > It was the seventh seal that opened the trumpets, and in the Day of
            Atonement the trumpets were blown to anounce the Judgment - so it was
            with the seven trumpets. Thus the 7 trumpets had to be blown between
            1798 and 1844 = 46 years.
            ----------------------------

            How can the seven churches fit the seven seals.
            It seems far more logical to have the seven churches fit the seven
            trumpets!

            The sixth seal corresponds with the seventh church.
            The sixth seal reveals the fate of the wicked at Christ's coming and
            the reward of the sealed at Christ's coming.


            In the seven seals the first four seals deal with the history of the
            Christian church-- it's four phases. The last three seals deal with
            how God steps in to deal with the situation at the "end of time".

            Seal five: need and announcement and purpose for the investigative
            judgment at the end of the 1260 years.

            Seal six: physical signs -- earthquake to mark the time is near,
            right up to the final uphevel when every island and mountain is
            removed (if the earthquake is literal so is the removal of mountains
            and islands) at the second coming. Christ is coming in the sixth
            seal. The wicked run under the falling mountains to escape, but the
            sealed righteous will stand before the throne clothed in their white
            garments.

            In the seventh seal-- there is SILENCE
            not trumpets.
          • Jonathan Smith
            a.. It was the seventh seal that opened the trumpets, and in the Day of Atonement the trumpets were blown to anounce the Judgment - so it was with the seven
            Message 5 of 8 , Mar 26, 2004
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              • > It was the seventh seal that opened the trumpets, and in the Day of
                Atonement the trumpets were blown to anounce the Judgment - so it was
                with the seven trumpets.  Thus the 7 trumpets had to be blown between
                1798 and 1844 = 46 years.

                ----------------------
                >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                Ruth wrote <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
                How can this be?

                Revelation 10 and 11 happen between the sixth and seventh trumpet.  The seven trumpets do not happen between Revelation 10 and 11?

                I've never heard of the seven trumpets being put between 1798 and 1844 before.  The Advent movement emerged between the sixth and seventh trumpet.

                ****************************************************************************************************
               
              Ruth, when I was writing I was doing so from my office, without all the things I have.  This needs more investigation.  Also, I was writing as thoughts came to my head, so I am open to correction.
               
              • Revelation 10 shows the opening of Daniel.
              • In verse 7 it says the sounding of the 7th trumpet will end the mystery of God
              • In verses 8 - 10 the fledgling church preached great things but was bitterly disappointed
              • The last verse tries to rally their spirits.
              In short, Rev 10 is the great advent awakening, ending with the disappointment.  Thus place it 1798 - 1844
               
              Revelation 11 opens with that brilliant insight Ulrike showed: the measuring of the three things equals the cleansing of the three things from Lev 16
              • Verse 1 points CONCLUSIVELY to the Day of atonement
              • Verse two gives the time of 42 months.  Why use 42 and not 1260 days?  We are to work 6 days and rest the seventh.  Since 7 represents completion, then 42 = 7 * 6 represents the completion of the work by the Apostates - Gentiles in this case.
              • Verses 3 - 12 reviews the period of apostasy culminating with the French Revolution and the reign of terror
              • Verses 15 - 19 states clearly it is time for judgment
              So Revelation 11 happens only within a very short space of time.  Enough information is provided for the church to focus on the work of Christ in the Most Holy Place
               
              John heard the voice of Christ sounding as a trumpet:
              • I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet  Rev 1:10
              So the 7 trumpets must be instructions, warnings etc.  Accordiing to Rev 8:1, 2 it was after the 7th seal that the angels were given the trumpets.  We must investigate if this is chronoligical.  But if this true, the 7th seal can be long - note the time periods.  So the opening of the seal does not imply it is ended or closed. 
               
              • The 6th seal started with the earthquake in Nov 1, 1755
              • The dark day and meteor shower were in May 19, 1780
              But there is no precise indication (not at first reading) as to the date the 7th seal started.
               
              I have to run now, but I will revisit this later.
               
               
               
            • Ulicia Unruh
              So now, we see the investigative judgment in the sixth church, the Philadelphia church where Christ opens a door that no man can shut and closes a door which
              Message 6 of 8 , Mar 26, 2004
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                So now, we see the investigative judgment in the sixth church,  the Philadelphia church where Christ opens a door that no man can shut and closes a door which no man can open.
                 
                And Ruth, you made a good point on the seals--
                The four horses (four seals) depict the history of the Christian church.
                The last three seals depict God's work during the time of the end commencing from 1798
                The investigative judgment  is announced in the fifth seal and begins with the dead, or martyrs, who are told they must "sleep a little longer",
                The  sixth seal covers the "time of the end" and reveals the state of the living during the judgment time.   The righteous are sealed and will stand before God's throne, while the wicked rush for the mountains and rocks to fall upon them at the second coming of Christ.
                 
                The seventh seal is silence in heaven-- the work in the sanctuary is completed.
                 
                Rev. 8:2 begins a new series.
                 
                The first verses give a summary of what is to come. 
                 
                This series begins with a heavenly scene. We see the High Priest with the Golden censor standing before the altar of incense, making intercession for the people. He is ready to go into the Most Holy Place � the day of Atonement is about to begin.
                 
                Now to understand the trumpets let's look back at the type.
                 
                The Jewish "spiritual" year was seven months long.  Beginning with the Passover in the first month and ending with the day of atonement followed by the feast of tabernacles in the seventh month.
                 
                Each new month or "new moon" was begun with the blowing of trumpets. 
                Seven months-- seven successive trumpets!
                 
                In the seventh month this  was a special day called "feast of trumpets" --
                 
                The unique difference of the seventh month was in the realization that this was the month containing the day of atonement when the High Priest went in before the ark of the covenant. All were to search the hearts and consecrate themselves to the Lord in preparation for this solemn day which represented the final judgment.
                 

                It is interesting that seven months pass, each month beginning with a trumpet blast. On the seventh month, we have the seventh trumpet announcing the day of atonement.

                Are any bells ringing? Do we see parallels with these feasts and the sounding of trumpets in Revelation?

                In Revelation we have seven trumpets blown consecutively, not all together. And when the seventh trumpet blows, in chapter 11, we see the inner door into the Most Holy of Heaven opened and we see the ark, while the 24 elders declare that the time of judgment has come.

                Revelation recounts the first six trumpets AND THEN goes into great detail to outline conditions concerning the seventh trumpet!  For this is the DAY OF ATONEMENT trumpet.

                 

                It seems very likely that the blowing of the seven trumpets in Revelation correspond to the blowing of trumpets at the seven New Moon (or New Month) festivals in the Old Testament.

                Each new moon trumpet blowing was understood as a day of judgment in miniature, which warned people to prepare for the final judgment ushered in by the Feast of Trumpets. When the seventh trumpet blew, it was to announce the Day of Atonement was at hand.

                Thus the seven trumpets cover the whole Christian era, each of the six a miniature judgment pointing the way to the final judgment of the seventh.  

                It is very obvious that the final investigative judgment is announced between the sixth and seventh trumpet-- the seventh being the investigative judgment which leads to end of all things.

                 

                ____________________-

                ____________________

                Here is an explanation for the first few verses in Rev. 8

                THE GOLDEN CENSURE:

                "And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets. (8:2) 

                And another Angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the  golden altar which was before the throne. (8:3)

                We see the High Priest (Christ) with the Golden censor standing before the altar of incense, making intercession for the people. He is getting ready to go into the Most Holy Place �

                "And the smoke of incense which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand." (8:4)

                The prayers-- the cries of the saints -- "How long oh Lord till you judge"?   Then--

                 

                "The angel took took the censer and filled it with fire of the altar" (8:5)

                In the earthly day of atonement service the priest was to "take a censer full of burning coals of fire from off the altar before the LORD, and sweet incense and bring it within the veil. (Lev. 16:12)
                In Revelation 8:5  we see the censer being filled with fire from the altar.

                and cast it into the earth and there were voices, and thundering and lightnings and an earth quake. (8:5

                On the day of Atonement the Priest took this censor filled with burning coals with him into the Most Holy Place. When he came out of the Most Holy Place, the censor was put down and sin and unrepentant sinners were "cast out" of the camp. (Lev. 23:29)

                When the priest comes out and throws down the censor, it will be too late to change.

                Please notice something here:

                When the Priest throws down the censor there will be noise and an earthquake and thundering. BUT
                it is not until the very last trumpet has sounded that the noise, thundering, lightnings and an earthquake are again referred too, at the end of Rev. 11.

                Rev. 8:5 And the angel took the censer, filled with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth; and there were VOICES, AND THUNDERINGS, AND LIGHTNINGS, AND AM EARTHQUAKE.

                When do see this happening?

                Rev. 11:15,19 And the seventh angel sounded....the temple of God was opened in heaven and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament;   (the investigative judgment scene)AND THERE WERE VOICES, LIGHTNINGS, and THUNDERINGS and an EARTHQUAKE, and great HAIL.

                Here we see that the events happening after the "throwing down" of the censer, namely the noise, thunder, voices and lightning, happen AFTER the seventh trumpet sounds. When the seventh trumpet finishes sounding the mystery of God will be finished and the kingdoms of earth will be the kingdoms of Christ.

                 

                 
                 


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              • Jonathan Smith
                ... From: Ruth To: adventism_prophecy@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 10:23 AM Subject: [adventism_prophecy] Re: Our church in Prophecy - Further
                Message 7 of 8 , Mar 26, 2004
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                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Ruth
                  Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 10:23 AM
                  Subject: [adventism_prophecy] Re: Our church in Prophecy - Further Questions
                  How can the seven churches fit the seven seals. It seems far more logical to have the seven churches fit the seven
                  trumpets!
                  ------------------------------------------
                   
                  Ruth, You and Ulrike sure did a good job.  I stand corrected
                   
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