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Re: [adobe] Re: Question on use of crusher fines in adobe mix

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  • Kimberly Beauvais
    We are using crusher fines from manufacture of base course at our construction site in Lincoln, NM. Using a Powell and Sons hydraulic press. We are using no
    Message 1 of 18 , Apr 26, 2012
      We are using crusher fines from manufacture of base course at our construction site in Lincoln, NM. Using a Powell and Sons hydraulic press. We are using no stabilizer and the block is being pressed at 8-10% moisture.

      We found it was better to let the block cure 2-3 days on pallets than stacking green. The corners are fragile before that time and curing puts up a better block. We are making a slip out of the same crusher fines screened through stucco lath to remove particulates. After about two hours, the freshly laid block is securely bonded to the layer below. I cannot overstate how substantial  the dry stacked wall becomes in less than one day. We have pressed in excess of 500 block a day with virtually no rejects or waste and that's not really trying to make as many as we can.  We are adding a geotech mesh every third course which does not change the level and binds the blocks horizontally.Packing interstital mud seems counter intuitive. The only purpose the slip serves is to remoisten the block to form a mechanical seal. No way would I  place uncompacted soil anywhere near [ or in] the dry stack.

      Robert Beauvais



      -----Original Message-----
      From: "butopia@..." <butopia@...>
      Sent 4/26/2012 4:14:09 PM
      To: adobe@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [adobe] Re: Question on use of crusher fines in adobe mix



      And has anyone ever seen it?  I wonder if it still exists?
       
      -Neal

      On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 11:26 AM, kwolson2002 <kwayneolson@...> wrote:
       

      On pages 29 and 30 of the document Butopia attached, there is discussion of a horse corral complex, constructed by placing a 5-adobe mold atop the wall (or footer) and molding the adobes in place, following which the mold is removed. Filling the mold also packs adobe mix into the interstices of the course below, since the bond pattern places the mold 1/2 block along the wall from the lower course. It says up to three courses (each four inches thick) can be built before allowing for drying.

      It's an interesting chimera of adobe and cob, and eliminates mudding the adobes together.

      Has anyone seen this used elsewhere? Would anyone care to offer an opinion?

      Kevin

    • butopia@gmail.com
      Robert- Thanks for the description of the CEB with CF. Sounds like quite a wall. The times I ve seen walls laid up with a slip it s amazing how well it bonds
      Message 2 of 18 , Apr 27, 2012
        Robert-  Thanks for the description of the CEB with CF. Sounds like quite a wall.  The times I've seen walls laid up with a slip it's amazing how well it bonds the courses together.  What weight of geomesh is being used?
         
        Thanks all for the ideas, experience and feedback.  -Neal

        On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 9:08 PM, Kimberly Beauvais <beauvais@...> wrote:
         

        We are using crusher fines from manufacture of base course at our construction site in Lincoln, NM. Using a Powell and Sons hydraulic press. We are using no stabilizer and the block is being pressed at 8-10% moisture.

        We found it was better to let the block cure 2-3 days on pallets than stacking green. The corners are fragile before that time and curing puts up a better block. We are making a slip out of the same crusher fines screened through stucco lath to remove particulates. After about two hours, the freshly laid block is securely bonded to the layer below. I cannot overstate how substantial  the dry stacked wall becomes in less than one day. We have pressed in excess of 500 block a day with virtually no rejects or waste and that's not really trying to make as many as we can.  We are adding a geotech mesh every third course which does not change the level and binds the blocks horizontally.Packing interstital mud seems counter intuitive. The only purpose the slip serves is to remoisten the block to form a mechanical seal. No way would I  place uncompacted soil anywhere near [ or in] the dry stack.

        Robert Beauvais

      • kwolson2002
        Neal - Well, they still show up on Google Maps in the satellite view. Look just south of Santa Fe, NM, in the wedge between I-25 and NM-14. They are on the
        Message 3 of 18 , Apr 27, 2012
          Neal -

          Well, they still show up on Google Maps in the satellite view. Look just south of Santa Fe, NM, in the wedge between I-25 and NM-14. They are on the west side of NM-14, at the north side of the prison. There are some apparent sewage settling ponds just to the west of the corral complex.

          The document refers to a binder called "XLR-8", developed by Kenneth Salazar, which was used in the adobe mix. I am trying to find an email contact for him. He was a chemist for Los Alamos National Labs, and is active with an acequia association. I've found a phone number and street address, but would prefer an email, since that lets him reply whenever is convenient for him and won't cost him anything.

          Kevin

          --- In adobe@yahoogroups.com, "butopia@..." <butopia@...> wrote:
          >
          > And has anyone ever seen it? I wonder if it still exists?
          >
          > -Neal
          >
          > On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 11:26 AM, kwolson2002 <kwayneolson@...>wrote:
          >
          > > **
          > >
          > >
          > > On pages 29 and 30 of the document Butopia attached, there is discussion
          > > of a horse corral complex, constructed by placing a 5-adobe mold atop the
          > > wall (or footer) and molding the adobes in place, following which the mold
          > > is removed. Filling the mold also packs adobe mix into the interstices of
          > > the course below, since the bond pattern places the mold 1/2 block along
          > > the wall from the lower course. It says up to three courses (each four
          > > inches thick) can be built before allowing for drying.
          > >
          > > It's an interesting chimera of adobe and cob, and eliminates mudding the
          > > adobes together.
          > >
          > > Has anyone seen this used elsewhere? Would anyone care to offer an opinion?
          > >
          > > Kevin
          > >
          >
        • kwolson2002
          Neal - I thought I replied, but I must have closed the tab too quickly... Yes, I think so. They show up on Google Maps satellite view, anyway. In August of
          Message 4 of 18 , Apr 27, 2012
            Neal -

            I thought I replied, but I must have closed the tab too quickly...

            Yes, I think so. They show up on Google Maps satellite view, anyway.

            In August of 2005, someone was keeping a herd of bison there:
            http://www.ride-the-sunshine-glow.com/buffalo-capture.html
            Some sort of animals can be seen standing in the corrals in the current satellite shot.

            Look at the wedge between I-25 and NM-14, south of Sante Fe, NM.

            They can be seen at the north edge of the correctional facility on the west side of NM-14, with some sewage settling ponds just to the west of the adjacent pasture land. Try coordinates 35°34'16.02"N, 106° 3'19.43"W if you can't spot them otherwise.

            I am trying to find an email address for the Kenneth Salazar mentioned in connection with the "XLR-8" additive referenced in the document. He was a chemist for Los Alamos National Labs and is currently active in an acequia group.

            Kevin

            --- In adobe@yahoogroups.com, "butopia@..." <butopia@...> wrote:
            >
            > And has anyone ever seen it? I wonder if it still exists?
            >
            > -Neal
            >
            > On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 11:26 AM, kwolson2002 <kwayneolson@...>wrote:
            >
            > > **
            > >
            > >
            > > On pages 29 and 30 of the document Butopia attached, there is discussion
            > > of a horse corral complex, constructed by placing a 5-adobe mold atop the
            > > wall (or footer) and molding the adobes in place, following which the mold
            > > is removed. Filling the mold also packs adobe mix into the interstices of
            > > the course below, since the bond pattern places the mold 1/2 block along
            > > the wall from the lower course. It says up to three courses (each four
            > > inches thick) can be built before allowing for drying.
            > >
            > > It's an interesting chimera of adobe and cob, and eliminates mudding the
            > > adobes together.
            > >
            > > Has anyone seen this used elsewhere? Would anyone care to offer an opinion?
            > >
            > > Kevin
            > >
            >
          • butopia@gmail.com
            Brilliant, had not though of that, thx. Maybe a side trip next time in area.
            Message 5 of 18 , Apr 28, 2012
              Brilliant, had not though of that, thx.  Maybe a side trip next time in area.

              Neal -

              Well, they still show up on Google Maps in the satellite view.

            • Quentin Wilson
              Wow! How do you folks find all this stuff? Salazar, Holy Potatochips! The NM Prison got the idea around 1990 that it would be good to have inmates whisper
              Message 6 of 18 , May 1, 2012
                Wow! How do you folks find all this stuff?

                Salazar, Holy Potatochips!

                The NM Prison got the idea around 1990 that it would be good to have
                inmates whisper horses that were being rounded up on federal lands and
                prepared for private ownership. Somehow the idea was coupled with
                inmates building very sturdy walls for the corrals, pens and exercise
                areas and the material became cast-in-place chemically modified adobe.
                David Salazar, the singer with the downtown Guachupangue Symphony
                Orchestra, was involved and perhaps he is related to Kenneth Salazar
                whose name I am first hearing here. Also involved was Inspector Hinojosa
                of the NM Construction Industries Division. As happens on a regular
                basis, their system was proclaimed to be Than Which There Is Nothing
                Greater on the Planet Which Will Save the Poor of the World via our
                Secret Ingredient X Which Transforms Lowly Dirt - Adobe - into the Most
                Powerful Building Material Which by the Way Will Need to be Purchased
                from Us. David Salazar was heard to say "Music has made me rich but
                Secret Ingredient X (now revealed to be the more complex XLR-8) will
                make me wealthy." Hinojosa, the inspector who made me and most
                contractors he dealt with feel as if we were sleazy, uninformed builders
                went on to get caught building something around La Cienega without a
                permit thereby losing his license to inspect and to my knowledge never
                to be heard from again.

                I first heard of casting adobe bricks in place on the wall from the late
                ...... Martinez of almost Barranco in Abiquiu who used the system to
                build an addition to his home around 1970. He was working in the
                Facilities Department of New Mexico Technical/Vocational School in El
                Rito, now known as Northern New Mexico College, NNMC. He felt it was a
                perfect way for himself to build as he could do a course every several
                days working on his home in the evening after work.

                David Copeland a former student at NNMC heard about the concept from me
                and developed the DACope37 high speed /in situ/ brick forming system
                which includes several ladder forms, a corner form and an adjustable
                gate end form so that one does not have to get involved in carpentry
                modifications of the forms as the walls move up and encounter door and
                window openings. The forms hang on the west wall of our shop just above
                the band saw and east of the Phillips 3600 X-ray Diffractometer Building
                which will be used to characterize clay samples if we can ever get the
                machine up and running without frying ourselves.

                That system was modified by another student, perhaps Ernie Carlen, to
                make six-inch courses to finish up the top several courses of Amanda
                Bramble's meditation room overlooking the Vallecitos River after she ran
                out of salvaged adobe bricks. Amanda and Andy went on to:
                www.ampersandprojects.org

                Hugo Houben and Hubert Guillaud only mention "direct shaping, number 6,"
                on their famous wheel of earthen construction on page 5 of /Earth
                Construction, A comprehensive guide/. This is hands only forming without
                a wooden form. I seem to remember someone publishing direct casting of
                adobe bricks on the wall, perhaps it was Gernot Minke in /Handbuk Lehm.

                /The late Janice Terry of Lex and Janice Terry the famous papercrete
                block builders near Aztec, NM came up with the idea of a steel ladder
                form on top of a wall. I think her idea was to create an alignment
                device for already cured bricks but some photos I had hinted at direct
                forming on the wall.

                Now we are hearing about Dirt Glue. Can it be revivification of XLR-8?
                Or is it an altogether new formula. We know it is a polymer so that's a
                start in chemical understanding.

                So that you can all have something to keep you awake at night, consider
                the following: When adobe is stabilized with certain materials in
                certain amounts, it will no longer recycle. Natural adobe can be broken
                up, pulverized or soaked in a pit like we find behind some of the
                buildings in Old Mesilla, NM and then be reused as bricks, mortar,
                plaster or floors. (The scene could also be Bernalillo, NM or Yemen or
                Egypt or most any adobe construction worksite.) Cement and lime
                stabilizers destroy the ability of clay to provide stickiness. Asphalt
                creates an invisible force field around adobe particles as evidenced by
                particles skittering around on top of the water in a wheelbarrow, unable
                to overcome the surface tension. Do XL-8 and Dirt Glue also preclude
                adobe from recycling? If it won't recycle, is it adobe?

                Quentin







                kwolson2002 wrote:
                >
                > Neal -
                >
                > I thought I replied, but I must have closed the tab too quickly...
                >
                > Yes, I think so. They show up on Google Maps satellite view, anyway.
                >
                > In August of 2005, someone was keeping a herd of bison there:
                > http://www.ride-the-sunshine-glow.com/buffalo-capture.html
                > Some sort of animals can be seen standing in the corrals in the
                > current satellite shot.
                >
                > Look at the wedge between I-25 and NM-14, south of Sante Fe, NM.
                >
                > They can be seen at the north edge of the correctional facility on the
                > west side of NM-14, with some sewage settling ponds just to the west
                > of the adjacent pasture land. Try coordinates 35°34'16.02"N, 106°
                > 3'19.43"W if you can't spot them otherwise.
                >
                > I am trying to find an email address for the Kenneth Salazar mentioned
                > in connection with the "XLR-8" additive referenced in the document. He
                > was a chemist for Los Alamos National Labs and is currently active in
                > an acequia group.
                >
                > Kevin
                >
                > --- In adobe@yahoogroups.com <mailto:adobe%40yahoogroups.com>,
                > "butopia@..." <butopia@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > And has anyone ever seen it? I wonder if it still exists?
                > >
                > > -Neal
                > >
                > > On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 11:26 AM, kwolson2002 <kwayneolson@...>wrote:
                > >
                > > > **
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > On pages 29 and 30 of the document Butopia attached, there is
                > discussion
                > > > of a horse corral complex, constructed by placing a 5-adobe mold
                > atop the
                > > > wall (or footer) and molding the adobes in place, following which
                > the mold
                > > > is removed. Filling the mold also packs adobe mix into the
                > interstices of
                > > > the course below, since the bond pattern places the mold 1/2 block
                > along
                > > > the wall from the lower course. It says up to three courses (each four
                > > > inches thick) can be built before allowing for drying.
                > > >
                > > > It's an interesting chimera of adobe and cob, and eliminates
                > mudding the
                > > > adobes together.
                > > >
                > > > Has anyone seen this used elsewhere? Would anyone care to offer an
                > opinion?
                > > >
                > > > Kevin
                > > >
                > >
                >
                >
              • kwolson2002
                Neal and all - I haven t seen the Fort Selden walls, but The Getty has a Phase I Final Report here:
                Message 7 of 18 , May 1, 2012
                  Neal and all -

                  I haven't seen the Fort Selden walls, but The Getty has a "Phase I Final Report" here:

                  http://www.getty.edu/conservation/publications_resources/pdf_publications/terraftselden.pdf

                  It describes why they built them (test methods of stabilizing historic structures), what they did (test several wall cap, surface treatment and foundation methods), and the results.

                  I wasn't able to find the two intermediate reports referenced in the final. I suppose, since this is the "final", the important stuff all made it into this one (?). The results summary starts at page number 86.

                  Cactus juice (they used agave, not Simone's tuna/prickly pear) is among the surface treatments tested. There was confusion on the correct method of application of at least one of the commercial surface treatments, though whether in the actual application or just the documentation escapes me.

                  In any case, it isn't clear to me how general the results should be taken to be.

                  Kevin

                  --- In adobe@yahoogroups.com, "butopia@..." <butopia@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Attached is a classic documentation of Adobe, ceb and rammed earth making /
                  > construction in New Mexico in 1989. Searchable in Adobe Reader.
                  >
                  > Has anyone ever seen the test walls at Fort Selden State Monument?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 5:42 PM, butopia@... <butopia@...>wrote:
                  >
                  > > Claude and DA-
                  > >
                  > > Yep, I'm stumped but am going forward with testing the material. It
                  > > either will or won't test out. I've not found specific adobe mix
                  > > examples but have found some rammed earth mixes that look great. Thanks
                  > > for your help and suggestions.
                  > >
                  > > -Neal
                  > >
                  > > On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 7:50 AM, desert_adobe <ev.newmexico@...>wrote:
                  > >
                  > >> **
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >> Claude's right. We've made blocks, both compressed and non, from mixes
                  > >> containing limestone and caliche in Big Bend, TX, area. With the right
                  > >> amount of clay, most of them pass the drive-on, jump-on and drop tests.
                  > >> Even without cement added.
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >> --- In adobe@yahoogroups.com, Claude Hayward <chayward@> wrote:
                  > >> >
                  > >> > > I'm only experienced with "crusher fines" from the upper Rio Grande
                  > >> Valley, but a sack of Portland went a long way (75 shovels) in a CF mix and
                  > >> it seemed plenty strong enough for adobe mortar. Hydrates the water quickly
                  > >> out of contention, so walls don't freeze in winter, and sets up fast in
                  > >> summer so I can lay up more courses without settling.
                  > >> >
                  > >> > YMMV
                  > >> >
                  > >> > C
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                • kwolson2002
                  Quentin - Thanks for the background on this. I am pretty sure this counts as the inside dirt ! In the non-XLR-8 cases you mentioned, has this method held up
                  Message 8 of 18 , May 1, 2012
                    Quentin -

                    Thanks for the background on this. I am pretty sure this counts as the "inside dirt"!

                    In the non-XLR-8 cases you mentioned, has this method held up well, vis-a-vis standard adobe construction? As you noted, it might be easier for one person, working alone a bit at a time, to use this scheme.

                    I think I tracked down an email for Salazar, so I'll ping it and see what happens.

                    I had wondered about corners, and figured you'd need something like David Easton's corner forms, but hadn't quite worked out in my head what it would take. I'll have to look up Copeland's system, just to see.

                    Re you're question, I don't suppose stabilized earth is strictly adobe. While I understand your point about recycling, that seems to be why most people want to stabilize it: so it won't soften when in incidental contact with water.

                    I am interested in stabilizers for (at least) three reasons:

                    - my climate is coastal/dampish and subject to freeze-thaw cycles about 4 months out of the year (another two or three months don't get many thaws)

                    - the colonias of Reynosa flood whenever it rains hard, leaving standing water for several days at a time

                    - some areas in dwellings (counter tops, bathrooms, garden areas, downspouts, cisterns, toilet vaults) benefit from or require waterproofness.

                    Thanks again for all of the info.

                    Kevin

                    --- In adobe@yahoogroups.com, Quentin Wilson <qwilson@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Wow! How do you folks find all this stuff?
                    >
                    > Salazar, Holy Potatochips!
                    >
                    > The NM Prison got the idea around 1990 that it would be good to have
                    > inmates whisper horses that were being rounded up on federal lands and
                    > prepared for private ownership. Somehow the idea was coupled with
                    > inmates building very sturdy walls for the corrals, pens and exercise
                    > areas and the material became cast-in-place chemically modified adobe.
                    > David Salazar, the singer with the downtown Guachupangue Symphony
                    > Orchestra, was involved and perhaps he is related to Kenneth Salazar
                    > whose name I am first hearing here. Also involved was Inspector Hinojosa
                    > of the NM Construction Industries Division. As happens on a regular
                    > basis, their system was proclaimed to be Than Which There Is Nothing
                    > Greater on the Planet Which Will Save the Poor of the World via our
                    > Secret Ingredient X Which Transforms Lowly Dirt - Adobe - into the Most
                    > Powerful Building Material Which by the Way Will Need to be Purchased
                    > from Us. David Salazar was heard to say "Music has made me rich but
                    > Secret Ingredient X (now revealed to be the more complex XLR-8) will
                    > make me wealthy." Hinojosa, the inspector who made me and most
                    > contractors he dealt with feel as if we were sleazy, uninformed builders
                    > went on to get caught building something around La Cienega without a
                    > permit thereby losing his license to inspect and to my knowledge never
                    > to be heard from again.
                    >
                    > I first heard of casting adobe bricks in place on the wall from the late
                    > ...... Martinez of almost Barranco in Abiquiu who used the system to
                    > build an addition to his home around 1970. He was working in the
                    > Facilities Department of New Mexico Technical/Vocational School in El
                    > Rito, now known as Northern New Mexico College, NNMC. He felt it was a
                    > perfect way for himself to build as he could do a course every several
                    > days working on his home in the evening after work.
                    >
                    > David Copeland a former student at NNMC heard about the concept from me
                    > and developed the DACope37 high speed /in situ/ brick forming system
                    > which includes several ladder forms, a corner form and an adjustable
                    > gate end form so that one does not have to get involved in carpentry
                    > modifications of the forms as the walls move up and encounter door and
                    > window openings. The forms hang on the west wall of our shop just above
                    > the band saw and east of the Phillips 3600 X-ray Diffractometer Building
                    > which will be used to characterize clay samples if we can ever get the
                    > machine up and running without frying ourselves.
                    >
                    > That system was modified by another student, perhaps Ernie Carlen, to
                    > make six-inch courses to finish up the top several courses of Amanda
                    > Bramble's meditation room overlooking the Vallecitos River after she ran
                    > out of salvaged adobe bricks. Amanda and Andy went on to:
                    > www.ampersandprojects.org
                    >
                    > Hugo Houben and Hubert Guillaud only mention "direct shaping, number 6,"
                    > on their famous wheel of earthen construction on page 5 of /Earth
                    > Construction, A comprehensive guide/. This is hands only forming without
                    > a wooden form. I seem to remember someone publishing direct casting of
                    > adobe bricks on the wall, perhaps it was Gernot Minke in /Handbuk Lehm.
                    >
                    > /The late Janice Terry of Lex and Janice Terry the famous papercrete
                    > block builders near Aztec, NM came up with the idea of a steel ladder
                    > form on top of a wall. I think her idea was to create an alignment
                    > device for already cured bricks but some photos I had hinted at direct
                    > forming on the wall.
                    >
                    > Now we are hearing about Dirt Glue. Can it be revivification of XLR-8?
                    > Or is it an altogether new formula. We know it is a polymer so that's a
                    > start in chemical understanding.
                    >
                    > So that you can all have something to keep you awake at night, consider
                    > the following: When adobe is stabilized with certain materials in
                    > certain amounts, it will no longer recycle. Natural adobe can be broken
                    > up, pulverized or soaked in a pit like we find behind some of the
                    > buildings in Old Mesilla, NM and then be reused as bricks, mortar,
                    > plaster or floors. (The scene could also be Bernalillo, NM or Yemen or
                    > Egypt or most any adobe construction worksite.) Cement and lime
                    > stabilizers destroy the ability of clay to provide stickiness. Asphalt
                    > creates an invisible force field around adobe particles as evidenced by
                    > particles skittering around on top of the water in a wheelbarrow, unable
                    > to overcome the surface tension. Do XL-8 and Dirt Glue also preclude
                    > adobe from recycling? If it won't recycle, is it adobe?
                    >
                    > Quentin
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > kwolson2002 wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Neal -
                    > >
                    > > I thought I replied, but I must have closed the tab too quickly...
                    > >
                    > > Yes, I think so. They show up on Google Maps satellite view, anyway.
                    > >
                    > > In August of 2005, someone was keeping a herd of bison there:
                    > > http://www.ride-the-sunshine-glow.com/buffalo-capture.html
                    > > Some sort of animals can be seen standing in the corrals in the
                    > > current satellite shot.
                    > >
                    > > Look at the wedge between I-25 and NM-14, south of Sante Fe, NM.
                    > >
                    > > They can be seen at the north edge of the correctional facility on the
                    > > west side of NM-14, with some sewage settling ponds just to the west
                    > > of the adjacent pasture land. Try coordinates 35°34'16.02"N, 106°
                    > > 3'19.43"W if you can't spot them otherwise.
                    > >
                    > > I am trying to find an email address for the Kenneth Salazar mentioned
                    > > in connection with the "XLR-8" additive referenced in the document. He
                    > > was a chemist for Los Alamos National Labs and is currently active in
                    > > an acequia group.
                    > >
                    > > Kevin
                    > >
                    > > --- In adobe@yahoogroups.com <mailto:adobe%40yahoogroups.com>,
                    > > "butopia@" <butopia@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > And has anyone ever seen it? I wonder if it still exists?
                    > > >
                    > > > -Neal
                    > > >
                    > > > On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 11:26 AM, kwolson2002 <kwayneolson@>wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > > **
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > On pages 29 and 30 of the document Butopia attached, there is
                    > > discussion
                    > > > > of a horse corral complex, constructed by placing a 5-adobe mold
                    > > atop the
                    > > > > wall (or footer) and molding the adobes in place, following which
                    > > the mold
                    > > > > is removed. Filling the mold also packs adobe mix into the
                    > > interstices of
                    > > > > the course below, since the bond pattern places the mold 1/2 block
                    > > along
                    > > > > the wall from the lower course. It says up to three courses (each four
                    > > > > inches thick) can be built before allowing for drying.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > It's an interesting chimera of adobe and cob, and eliminates
                    > > mudding the
                    > > > > adobes together.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Has anyone seen this used elsewhere? Would anyone care to offer an
                    > > opinion?
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Kevin
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • butopia@gmail.com
                    EXECELLENT REFERENCE! Thank you for sharing it. -Neal
                    Message 9 of 18 , May 1, 2012
                      EXECELLENT REFERENCE!  Thank you for sharing it.
                       
                      -Neal

                      On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 7:23 PM, kwolson2002 <kwayneolson@...> wrote:
                       

                      Neal and all -

                      I haven't seen the Fort Selden walls, but The Getty has a "Phase I Final Report" here:

                      http://www.getty.edu/conservation/publications_resources/pdf_publications/terraftselden.pdf

                      It describes why they built them (test methods of stabilizing historic structures), what they did (test several wall cap, surface treatment and foundation methods), and the results.

                    • Quentin Wilson
                      ... Exactly. With more persons working and with more time per day available, the personnel soon outrun the system s ability to cure sufficiently before the
                      Message 10 of 18 , May 2, 2012
                        kwolson2002 wrote:
                        >
                        > Quentin -
                        >
                        > Thanks for the background on this. I am pretty sure this counts as the
                        > "inside dirt"!
                        >
                        > In the non-XLR-8 cases you mentioned, has this method held up well,
                        > vis-a-vis standard adobe construction? As you noted, it might be
                        > easier for one person, working alone a bit at a time, to use this scheme.
                        >

                        Exactly. With more persons working and with more time per day available,
                        the personnel soon outrun the system's ability to cure sufficiently
                        before the next course.

                        >
                        > I think I tracked down an email for Salazar, so I'll ping it and see
                        > what happens.
                        >
                        > I had wondered about corners, and figured you'd need something like
                        > David Easton's corner forms, but hadn't quite worked out in my head
                        > what it would take. I'll have to look up Copeland's system, just to see.
                        >

                        Copeland's system is hanging on the wall with no known web presence. He
                        will be in El Rito the first three days of June and perhaps we can
                        institutionalize it on the web.

                        >
                        > Re you're question, I don't suppose stabilized earth is strictly
                        > adobe. While I understand your point about recycling, that seems to be
                        > why most people want to stabilize it: so it won't soften when in
                        > incidental contact with water.
                        >
                        > I am interested in stabilizers for (at least) three reasons:
                        >
                        > - my climate is coastal/dampish and subject to freeze-thaw cycles
                        > about 4 months out of the year (another two or three months don't get
                        > many thaws)
                        >
                        > - the colonias of Reynosa flood whenever it rains hard, leaving
                        > standing water for several days at a time
                        >
                        > - some areas in dwellings (counter tops, bathrooms, garden areas,
                        > downspouts, cisterns, toilet vaults) benefit from or require
                        > waterproofness.
                        >
                        > Thanks again for all of the info.
                        >
                        > Kevin
                        >
                        > --- In adobe@yahoogroups.com <mailto:adobe%40yahoogroups.com>, Quentin
                        > Wilson <qwilson@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Wow! How do you folks find all this stuff?
                        > >
                        > > Salazar, Holy Potatochips!
                        > >
                        > > The NM Prison got the idea around 1990 that it would be good to have
                        > > inmates whisper horses that were being rounded up on federal lands and
                        > > prepared for private ownership. Somehow the idea was coupled with
                        > > inmates building very sturdy walls for the corrals, pens and exercise
                        > > areas and the material became cast-in-place chemically modified adobe.
                        > > David Salazar, the singer with the downtown Guachupangue Symphony
                        > > Orchestra, was involved and perhaps he is related to Kenneth Salazar
                        > > whose name I am first hearing here. Also involved was Inspector
                        > Hinojosa
                        > > of the NM Construction Industries Division. As happens on a regular
                        > > basis, their system was proclaimed to be Than Which There Is Nothing
                        > > Greater on the Planet Which Will Save the Poor of the World via our
                        > > Secret Ingredient X Which Transforms Lowly Dirt - Adobe - into the Most
                        > > Powerful Building Material Which by the Way Will Need to be Purchased
                        > > from Us. David Salazar was heard to say "Music has made me rich but
                        > > Secret Ingredient X (now revealed to be the more complex XLR-8) will
                        > > make me wealthy." Hinojosa, the inspector who made me and most
                        > > contractors he dealt with feel as if we were sleazy, uninformed
                        > builders
                        > > went on to get caught building something around La Cienega without a
                        > > permit thereby losing his license to inspect and to my knowledge never
                        > > to be heard from again.
                        > >
                        > > I first heard of casting adobe bricks in place on the wall from the
                        > late
                        > > ...... Martinez of almost Barranco in Abiquiu who used the system to
                        > > build an addition to his home around 1970. He was working in the
                        > > Facilities Department of New Mexico Technical/Vocational School in El
                        > > Rito, now known as Northern New Mexico College, NNMC. He felt it was a
                        > > perfect way for himself to build as he could do a course every several
                        > > days working on his home in the evening after work.
                        > >
                        > > David Copeland a former student at NNMC heard about the concept from me
                        > > and developed the DACope37 high speed /in situ/ brick forming system
                        > > which includes several ladder forms, a corner form and an adjustable
                        > > gate end form so that one does not have to get involved in carpentry
                        > > modifications of the forms as the walls move up and encounter door and
                        > > window openings. The forms hang on the west wall of our shop just above
                        > > the band saw and east of the Phillips 3600 X-ray Diffractometer
                        > Building
                        > > which will be used to characterize clay samples if we can ever get the
                        > > machine up and running without frying ourselves.
                        > >
                        > > That system was modified by another student, perhaps Ernie Carlen, to
                        > > make six-inch courses to finish up the top several courses of Amanda
                        > > Bramble's meditation room overlooking the Vallecitos River after she
                        > ran
                        > > out of salvaged adobe bricks. Amanda and Andy went on to:
                        > > www.ampersandprojects.org
                        > >
                        > > Hugo Houben and Hubert Guillaud only mention "direct shaping, number
                        > 6,"
                        > > on their famous wheel of earthen construction on page 5 of /Earth
                        > > Construction, A comprehensive guide/. This is hands only forming
                        > without
                        > > a wooden form. I seem to remember someone publishing direct casting of
                        > > adobe bricks on the wall, perhaps it was Gernot Minke in /Handbuk Lehm.
                        > >
                        > > /The late Janice Terry of Lex and Janice Terry the famous papercrete
                        > > block builders near Aztec, NM came up with the idea of a steel ladder
                        > > form on top of a wall. I think her idea was to create an alignment
                        > > device for already cured bricks but some photos I had hinted at direct
                        > > forming on the wall.
                        > >
                        > > Now we are hearing about Dirt Glue. Can it be revivification of XLR-8?
                        > > Or is it an altogether new formula. We know it is a polymer so that's a
                        > > start in chemical understanding.
                        > >
                        > > So that you can all have something to keep you awake at night, consider
                        > > the following: When adobe is stabilized with certain materials in
                        > > certain amounts, it will no longer recycle. Natural adobe can be broken
                        > > up, pulverized or soaked in a pit like we find behind some of the
                        > > buildings in Old Mesilla, NM and then be reused as bricks, mortar,
                        > > plaster or floors. (The scene could also be Bernalillo, NM or Yemen or
                        > > Egypt or most any adobe construction worksite.) Cement and lime
                        > > stabilizers destroy the ability of clay to provide stickiness. Asphalt
                        > > creates an invisible force field around adobe particles as evidenced by
                        > > particles skittering around on top of the water in a wheelbarrow,
                        > unable
                        > > to overcome the surface tension. Do XL-8 and Dirt Glue also preclude
                        > > adobe from recycling? If it won't recycle, is it adobe?
                        > >
                        > > Quentin
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > kwolson2002 wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Neal -
                        > > >
                        > > > I thought I replied, but I must have closed the tab too quickly...
                        > > >
                        > > > Yes, I think so. They show up on Google Maps satellite view, anyway.
                        > > >
                        > > > In August of 2005, someone was keeping a herd of bison there:
                        > > > http://www.ride-the-sunshine-glow.com/buffalo-capture.html
                        > > > Some sort of animals can be seen standing in the corrals in the
                        > > > current satellite shot.
                        > > >
                        > > > Look at the wedge between I-25 and NM-14, south of Sante Fe, NM.
                        > > >
                        > > > They can be seen at the north edge of the correctional facility on
                        > the
                        > > > west side of NM-14, with some sewage settling ponds just to the west
                        > > > of the adjacent pasture land. Try coordinates 35°34'16.02"N, 106°
                        > > > 3'19.43"W if you can't spot them otherwise.
                        > > >
                        > > > I am trying to find an email address for the Kenneth Salazar
                        > mentioned
                        > > > in connection with the "XLR-8" additive referenced in the
                        > document. He
                        > > > was a chemist for Los Alamos National Labs and is currently active in
                        > > > an acequia group.
                        > > >
                        > > > Kevin
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In adobe@yahoogroups.com <mailto:adobe%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > <mailto:adobe%40yahoogroups.com>,
                        > > > "butopia@" <butopia@> wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > And has anyone ever seen it? I wonder if it still exists?
                        > > > >
                        > > > > -Neal
                        > > > >
                        > > > > On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 11:26 AM, kwolson2002 <kwayneolson@>wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > > **
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > On pages 29 and 30 of the document Butopia attached, there is
                        > > > discussion
                        > > > > > of a horse corral complex, constructed by placing a 5-adobe mold
                        > > > atop the
                        > > > > > wall (or footer) and molding the adobes in place, following which
                        > > > the mold
                        > > > > > is removed. Filling the mold also packs adobe mix into the
                        > > > interstices of
                        > > > > > the course below, since the bond pattern places the mold 1/2
                        > block
                        > > > along
                        > > > > > the wall from the lower course. It says up to three courses
                        > (each four
                        > > > > > inches thick) can be built before allowing for drying.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > It's an interesting chimera of adobe and cob, and eliminates
                        > > > mudding the
                        > > > > > adobes together.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Has anyone seen this used elsewhere? Would anyone care to
                        > offer an
                        > > > opinion?
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Kevin
                        > > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                      • Quentin87539
                        Bob Godby made lots of fine adobes with that crusher trash. I have one in my shop which after being left outside for 20 years still has one ear of the two that
                        Message 11 of 18 , May 3, 2012
                          Bob Godby made lots of fine adobes with that crusher trash. I have one in my shop which after being left outside for 20 years still has one ear of the two that formed a slot for a window buck. Bob was trying to replicate the concrete block industry's sash block primarily for use with metal window frams and their fins. That brick was certainly well stabilized with asphalt but Bob also made naturals.
                          I plan to mount the brick on a comemorative plaque and hang it on the wall.

                          We used lots of crusher trash or crusher fines to add to our own adobes but especailly for floors. We got the material from the Espanola Transit Mix and were free to chose from their many piles, each of which was a bit different.

                          Also, back in the 70's, base course had a clay component and as delivered made a perfect adobe brick. The first to notice this were the Wolfskill et al folks at Texas A&M where there was a lot of research on highway construction starting with the base course layers. I also did my own road with 90 cubic yards of base course. With a bit of crown in it and the clay component, it mostly sheds rain and does not turn into the truck trap that my backyard does where there is no base course.

                          Somewhere along the way for some reason, the national standard for base course eliminated the clay component and that ended the easy days of material selecton for adobe and road construction for the rest of us.

                          As for the limestone issue, I have no clue.

                          Bob Godby and Howard Scoggins were folk heroes. I made a Butopiaesque pilgrimage to La Luz to met Bob and see his operation and stumbled on the remarkable Casa Cien which was 100 feet by 100 feet built with Bob's adobes by a retired military woman who wanted to teach weaving.
                          It has an open courtyard and must have been about a mile east of Bob's yard. As mentioned severaal times in earlier posts by myself and other, Howard dropped out of sight without my ever having met him. Bob merely died. I have found a person who knew them both and am working to get him to write up what he knows.

                          Quentin

                          --- In adobe@yahoogroups.com, "butopia2003" <butopia@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Quentin, et al-
                          >
                          > On page 1-5 of Scoggin's Portalab Manual there is an outline discussing possible partially processed sources of material for adobe and rammed earth. Item E, 1. is as follows;
                          >
                          > >>>>>>>>>>
                          > "1. Commercial gravel and sand operations.
                          > a. "Crusher—fines" or "crusher—waste" is material that passes a 3/8" or 1/4" screen. This material is left over from operations that produce "base—course,",crushed rock of 3 /4" to 3/8". The fines or waste will consist of small gravel, sand, and clay.
                          >
                          > b. Depending upon granular size, percentage of sand and clay, and parent source (granite, flint, limestone,etc.), this material may be usable as is or blended with additional sand or clay.
                          >
                          > c. Do not accept materials based upon limestone or caliche for adobe or rammed earth.
                          > >>>>>>>>>>
                          >
                          > I thought Scoggins was partners in the La Luz adobe operation that used crusher fines as the base of their mix, using asphalt emulsion as their binder / stabilizer. Regardless, why would crusher fines from limestone be disqualified out of hand. Steve, Paul and others have commented in the past on this type of material and Gerdes in Burnet also made adobes from exactly this kind of mix (Fines from nearby limestone quarry and caliche from a local pit. Typo?
                          >
                          > Anyone have a prior recipe they are willing to share or observations on stabilization of this type of material (AE or Portland)? The material I'm testing clearly doesn't have enough clay to stick together without the addition of some source of clay, but it is good sharp material and should compact well. Thoughts?
                          >
                          > -Neal
                          >
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