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Re: The Golden Compass

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  • The_Dhampire_LOGOS
    ... achristianvsatheistclub@yahoogroups.com, The_Dhampire_LOGOS ... oceansnsunsets_1111 ... God ... for ... understand ... lash ... and ... movie ...
    Message 1 of 201 , Dec 1, 2007
      --- In achristianvsatheistclub@yahoogroups.com, oceansnsunsets_1111
      <no_reply@...> wrote:
      >
      > --- In
      achristianvsatheistclub@yahoogroups.com, "The_Dhampire_LOGOS"
      > <the_dhampire_logos@> wrote:
      > >
      > > --- In achristianvsatheistclub@yahoogroups.com,
      oceansnsunsets_1111
      > > <no_reply@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > --- In
      > > achristianvsatheistclub@yahoogroups.com, "The_Dhampire_LOGOS"
      > > > <the_dhampire_logos@> wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > > > > > > > > > > [[> Hm. So you believe that all atheists hate
      God
      > > > > and/or
      > > > > > > > > > Christians
      > > > > > > > > > > > at some point or another. Is that your reason
      for
      > > > > > > insisting
      > > > > > > > > > > > on "sometimes"?]]
      > > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > > Or is it that she's too feeble minded to
      understand
      > > > > what is
      > > > > > > > wrong
      > > > > > > > > > > > with stating that an atheist hates 'god'.
      > > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > > LOGOS
      > > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > Not at all.... I would agree, you cannot hate
      > > something
      > > > > that
      > > > > > > > > > doesn't
      > > > > > > > > > > exist, or that you really really think doesn't
      > > exist.
      > > > > (or
      > > > > > > lack
      > > > > > > > > > belief in,
      > > > > > > > > > > etc). This is why though, when we see atheists
      lash
      > > out
      > > > > at
      > > > > > > > > > Christians
      > > > > > > > > > > or things that represent Christianity, or even
      > > God..that
      > > > > it
      > > > > > > > > > actually
      > > > > > > > > > > sheds more light on something else altogether.
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > Ocean
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > Really?
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > Well, I just watched a Christian fellow on Hannity
      and
      > > > > Colmes
      > > > > > > > rail
      > > > > > > > > > against the movie that will be out soon called The
      > > Golden
      > > > > > > > Compass,
      > > > > > > > > > saying that it's anti-Christian and has an anti-
      > > Christian
      > > > > > > agenda.
      > > > > > > > > > Apparently the Catholic League and other Christian
      > > groups
      > > > > are
      > > > > > > > calling
      > > > > > > > > > for a boycott of the film because it is pushing
      > > an "atheist
      > > > > > > > agenda".
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > Hmmm...
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > Well, that's funny considering that the book the
      movie
      > > is
      > > > > based
      > > > > > > > on
      > > > > > > > > > has (a) angels, (b) a 'god', (c) churches and
      religions
      > > in
      > > > > it.
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > The hoopla surrounds the fact that a "magical"
      device,
      > > the
      > > > > > > golden
      > > > > > > > > > compass, allows one to visit parallel universes and
      the
      > > > > > > catholic
      > > > > > > > > > church IN A PARALLEL UNIVERSE uses evil tactics.
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > Hmmm...
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > 1. So, despite your disclaimer, you *have*
      repeatedly
      > > > > accused
      > > > > > > > > > atheists of hating 'god', which makes your present
      > > claim
      > > > > more
      > > > > > > > than a
      > > > > > > > > > bit suspect, and...
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > 2. ...It seems that this tendency to accuse
      atheists
      > > (even
      > > > > > > > > > an "atheist agenda") which includes hating or
      giving
      > > less
      > > > > that
      > > > > > > > > > positive view of a 'god', is more than just a
      little
      > > > > prevalent,
      > > > > > > > > > amongst your talking-snake believing brethren and
      > > sistren,
      > > > > > > > wouldn't
      > > > > > > > > > you say?
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > After all, how can a fantasy magic story about
      a 'god'
      > > with
      > > > > > > > > > questionable methods be an "atheist agenda", when
      > > atheist
      > > > > don't
      > > > > > > > > > believe that any allegedly existing 'god'?
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > LOGOS
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > I have a lot to learn about this movie, and story.
      > > However,
      > > > > I
      > > > > > > > > do know, that in the end, they supposedly
      Kill "God".
      > > So,
      > > > > that
      > > > > > > > might
      > > > > > > > > help in your understanding of the story some, and
      where
      > > > > > > > > people are coming from. Did you know that, about the
      > > story?
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > Ocean
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Do atheists wish to kill 'god'?
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > LOGOS
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > P.S. Isn't killing 'god' your team's department?
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > LOGOS
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > [[> IF (and i think there is) a God, no "team" can kill
      him. ]]
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > 1. Why do you think that Christians upset about a movie where
      > > > > people "kill 'god'"?
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > [[> It carries on to a new level, what we see atheists trying to
      do
      > > in our
      > > > country by attempting to "kill" anything having to do with God,
      and
      > > > supports it in a different way. It is coming at if from an
      > > angle, "oh
      > > > its a kids movie after all", and giving a pass at the idea of
      what
      > > the
      > > > atheists agenda seems to be, perhaps? That is just one idea
      that
      > > > pops in my mind. We see the trying to "kill" the idea of God
      > > everywhere
      > > > in our society, on many different levels, so the idea of
      actually
      > > doing
      > > > so, even if just in a movie, should alarm people. People, that
      > > want
      > > > to be free to express their belief in a God, should totally be
      > > allowed
      > > > to do so. It IS a back handed attempt to totally support that
      kind
      > > of
      > > > agenda, and it should be telling, that you have been upset about
      > > > people are talking about it. That just proves it to me in a
      > > different way. ]]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > A. You just said that no team can kill 'god', yet you just
      > > rationalised certain Christians getting upset by a movie about
      > > something you just said can't happen.
      >
      > I think christians are perhaps upset about seeing atheists agendas
      in their
      > societies, and this author is a proud atheist, member of secular
      humanist
      > societies, writing books for children that culminate in the death
      of God.
      > Killing God, doesn't have to be able to happen, for people to wish
      it could
      > happen. It seems, that even though atheists don't believe in a
      god, they
      > sure would like to have the idea of even a God, removed from
      societies
      > they live in. It explains a lot of their actions.

      > > B. Again, a movie about some 'god' and naughty angels in a
      parallel
      > > universe cannot be part of an "atheist agenda" by definition. You
      > > seem to have lost sight of that fact in your above explanation.




      > I am full aware of what atheists say. Perhaps, take it up with the
      secular
      > humanist atheist that wrote the book? It seems you should be
      wanting to
      > ask him why he wrote this if there is no god, as much as or more
      than
      > what you are asking me. It appears he wants to kill the idea of a
      god, and
      > what better way, than going through the minds of children,
      perhaps?



      The fellow who wrote the book, wrote a piece of fiction. There is no
      problem with his position. He's merely a guy who wrote a series of
      stories.



      I'm asking you about some Christians who call a story about a 'god'
      and angels and churches an "atheist agenda"...which of course makes
      no sense.





      > > C. In the book/movie, this parallel universe is very different
      than
      > > our own, and the church in this other universe is called the
      > > Magisteria, not the Catholic Church. This *other* church can be
      > > called evil, or rather it's members use evil tactics. Necessarily
      > > different than evil is...evil? No, it's not, ergo the book and
      movie
      > > *are not* saying that the *Catholic church* is bad or evil. These
      > > upset Christians also seem to not understand this. Why is this do
      you
      > > think?



      [[> I think, people need to be careful, and not jump the gun before
      they
      > know more about the movie. You might be right.. I wonder why
      > are you concerned so much about what theists might think of this
      > movie? ]]



      Several large Christian organizations are organizing a boycott of a
      $180 million dollar soon to be released hollywood movie staring
      Nicole Kidman and Daniel Craig. I contend that said boycott is based
      on several false ideas. Why should it be strange that I would talk
      about it here?




      > > > > 2. Hebrews 9 says that Jesus died to atone for the sins of
      > > others. Is
      > > > > it your opinion that Jesus isn't 'god'?
      > > >
      > > > You know the answer, but I will answer again. Yes, Jesus is
      God,
      > > and
      > > > no on killed him, without him first and foremost laying down
      his
      > > life.
      > > > He killed "himself" for us, and did so allowing others to
      crucify
      > > him.
      > >
      > >
      > > Ah, so in your opinion, Jesus committed suicide.
      > >
      > >
      > > American Heritage Dictionary
      > > suicide
      > > n.
      > > 1. The act or an instance of intentionally killing oneself.
      >
      > I think Jesus, allowed himself to be killed, just like the book
      says.
      > He laid down his life...


      So, you believe that people CAN kill 'god', or do you not believe
      that Jesus is 'god'?


      We're back where we started, and you're just going in circles with
      this.

      Either Jesus killed himself (suicide), or he was killed by others
      (god can die) or Jesus wasn't 'god', and/or Jesus died of old age.


      You wish that NONE of the above are true, which means that your
      version of the Jesus story is self-contradictory.






      > > > > [[> As for atheists wishing to kill a God, I cannot answer
      that
      > > one
      > > > > > for sure, or for all. Assuming the first point is true,
      that
      > > no
      > > > > > group could kill him, what could a "group" do instead? ]]
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > It's up to Christians to answer those questions since it
      seems to
      > > be
      > > > > Christians that are accusing the makers of the book and movie
      > > about
      > > > > a 'god' and naughty angels called The Golden Compass of
      pushing
      > > > > an "atheist agenda".
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > [[> I gave an idea above or a couple, of why that might be true.
      Ron
      > > responded
      > > > as well, how he thinks killing Gods is an excellent idea,
      lol. I
      > > wonder why
      > > > you seem upset by this as an atheist? Atheists in general
      Logos,
      > > ACT as if
      > > > they would love to take the very IDEA of God out of many facets
      of
      > > our lives
      > > > and are actually fighting very very hard for this. ]]




      > > Is to remove something from certain aspect of our lives, to "kill
      it"?


      [[> Is it so odd, to "kill an idea", to rid oneself of something so
      much, the
      > thought just doesn't come up anymore? Atheists wouldn't love that,
      if
      > it happened to the word, god? I am not sure, I am asking..
      (though it
      > does SEEM to be the case)]]



      And you don't see how this is extreme equivocation? Even to the point
      that you're not being rational?




      > > [[ IF, you are not like that, then
      > > > good for you, but lets not pretend there are very very active
      > > atheists out there
      > > > like busy little bees, not trying to get the very word
      of "christ"
      > > out of christmas
      > > > for instance, and making employees not even be allowed to say
      it in
      > > certain
      > > > businesses. ]]




      > > Perhaps you are believing alarmist Christian propaganda. I know
      of no
      > > atheists who are plotting to prevent private or publicly traded
      > > businesses from saying "Merry Christmas", which has been a
      secular
      > > federal holiday since the President Grant administration over a
      > > hundred years ago and is dominated by Santa, flying mule-deer,
      toy
      > > making elves and Rudolph.



      [[> Whether or not it is atheists plotting, as you say above, I don't
      know, lol.
      > I do know, it happened the last couple of years at christmas
      time.. ]]



      > > The sane version of that story is that instead of saying Happy
      Yom
      > > Kippur, Happy Thanksgiving, Happy Hanukkah, Merry Christmas,
      Happy
      > > Kwanzaa, Happy New Year, etc, (or omitting saying any of the
      above),
      > > it just makes more sense to say "Happy Holidays" ("Holidays"-
      plural)
      > > for about six weeks.



      [[> Ahh yes, the whole pc thing. ]]



      Why is it a "pc thing" to wish everyone happy holidays (plural)?

      The above explanation is the basis for saying happy holidays, not
      some alleged atheist anti-Christian anti-Christmas conspiracy by evil
      CEO's and stockholders.

      (O'Reilly's annual tirade, the alleged "Attack on Christmas" reminds
      me of the late 18th century's "Illuminati Scare"...
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illuminati_Scare ).




      > > [[ Atheists WANT it to be offensive, on many levels..]]
      > >
      > >
      > > Christmas?
      > >
      >
      > Christ, mention of God, or symbols of a god, rules of a
      god....christmas,
      > etc.
      >
      > >
      > > Christian Christmas is a fraudulent holiday, like most Christian
      > > holidays. The idea that baby Jesus was born on the winter
      solstice is
      > > a pope-lie. That isn't offencive, it's just pathetic...as is
      typical.
      >
      > I think a lot of christians, just use that time of year, to
      remember that
      > Jesus was born, and to celebrate the traditions of Christmas, a
      have
      > gift giving, etc.


      Like I said, as a Christian holidy, it's a fake. Christmas trees in
      the home, gift giving, etc are associated with the Norse 'god' named
      Yule. This is what I used to watch Christian televangelist Herbert W.
      Armstrong rail about every Christmas while he sat behind his huge
      desk like a diminutive Ross Perot and pounded his desk in fury at the
      thought of Christmas trees in the homes of Christians.






      > > [[ "killing God"
      > > > is a deeper expression of this, and no, it can't be "done", but
      it
      > > can be thought
      > > > of and pushed into little children's minds, and that is
      disgusting
      > > to me. No, its
      > > > not logical that an atheist would love to kill the idea of a
      God
      > > that doesn't
      > > > exist, yet they very much want to do so. ]]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > You are equivocating to the point that you have no logic in what
      you
      > > say. A movie about a 'god' and angels can't be the product of
      > > an "atheist agenda", since any atheist/freethinker agenda would
      be
      > > free of any supernatural ideas at all.
      >



      [[> Yet, the author is a proud atheist, a secular humanist, and ends
      up killing
      > God at the end, its final climax of the story.]]


      He probably also likes grilled salmon steaks, but it doesn't make
      his 'god' and angel movie about salmon steaks or a part of a grilled
      fish conspiracy.





      [[ He very much, as an atheist,
      > wants to share the idea of killing a God with the world, and points
      it at
      > children first.]]



      No atheist want to "kill 'god'" anymore than he or she wants to kill
      the giant who owns the goose that lays the golden eggs.

      We're talking about a fantasy movie like Tin Man or The Matrix, which
      had heavy religious overtones. Did the Wachowski Brothers have a
      secret atheist agenda?




      [[ No christian made him do this..He made a "product" and seems
      > to have an agenda, from some of the other things I have read about
      this.]]


      You're "reading" idiotic conspiracy theories.





      [[> The issue is with him. Do you have a problem with christians not
      being fond of the idea?]]



      I have a "problem" with people being idiotic and others giving them a
      free pass because they supposedly represent a sacred-cow position.





      [[> > Your argument would have a firmer ground if these Christians
      were
      > > accusing Star Trek Voyager's "Q" ('god' like beings that are
      actually
      > > aliens) of being part of an atheist agenda, rather than a movie
      about
      > > a 'god', angels and churches.
      >
      > I was answering questions from you, not really having any intent of
      > having an argument yet. I said I don't know much about this, so I
      am
      > speculating thus far. Why though, would it make more sense for them
      > to do that with Star Trek, than this movie? ]]



      Because even though "Q's" appear to be 'gods' and seem to work magic,
      they are really natural beings, an evolved product of the universe.
      That would be a "naturalistic" message.




      I am not familiar enough
      > with Star Trek to know what you are talking about. I do want to
      under-
      > stand your point though.
      >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > > > [[> What if people wanted to kill a God, and couldn't, so
      they
      > > went
      > > > > > after what they could? Like, take his name out of things,
      off
      > > of
      > > > > > things, rally hard to do so, take the issues to court, try
      to
      > > take
      > > > > > down big crosses because they are "so" offencive, shoot down
      > > > > > moments of silence in case a kid used it to pray to a god,
      and
      > > > > > generally get up in arms over anything to do with the god,
      > > > > > write books about how believing him ruins everything?
      > > > > > (and that is just for starters..)
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Do you know of any groups like that, or partly like that?
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Just some thoughts, since you asked...
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Ocean]]
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > No, I don't know of any groups like that
      > > >
      > > > Yes, I am cutting this in half..because you are not being
      honest
      > > there.
      > > > You do know groups that act like the above actions I mentioned
      and
      > > > they are atheists.
      > > >
      > > > since it's logically
      > > > > impossible for atheists to 'act out' because they
      > > can't "kill 'god'".
      > > >
      > > > I am not ignoring the last part of that sentence... Logos, you
      > > meant, possible
      > > > I am trusting, and you know what, they AREN'T logical about it,
      yet
      > > totally
      > > > act out against such things. YOU, ARE logical, usually, or put
      a
      > > high value on
      > > > it that I have seen in terms of what you say you want to
      believe
      > > and "be" about.
      > > > The thing is, atheists that do these things, are NOT logical,
      and
      > > you are not
      > > > facing this fact head on, and are not being truthful with
      > > yourself. Why do you
      > > > think I am surprised you are an atheist? Why do you think you
      are
      > > so frustrated
      > > > about stories like this, and so many other things, and yet you
      lash
      > > out at the
      > > > wrong things?
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > I only "lash out" at insufferable idiots.
      >
      >



      > > Any representative of a Christian org who has an interview with
      Time
      > > magazine and asks for a boycott of a movie about a 'god', angels
      and
      > > churches because its part of an "atheist agenda"...is an idiot by
      > > definition.
      >



      [[> Let me ask you this. Do you think it wrong or odd, for
      christians to be
      > concerned about the ultimate topic of such a movie as this? ]]


      Is it odd? No, it's typical.

      Is it dumb? Yes.




      [[Keep in mind,
      > even the title was changed, to "tone it down some", for the
      original is
      > called "His Dark Materials". I find it odd to even change the
      name, for what
      > is the fear for keeping it the darker name, that was originally
      given to it? ]]


      > Seems, maybe, that the name is dark, and the story is dark,
      especially
      > progressively, and yet people might not come as much as if it were
      called,
      > "The Golden Compass". How about the difference in those two
      names?
      > Is it so odd for parents to be concerned?


      You're imagining shit with no data.




      > > What if I said that Zeus was naughty? Would that
      be "killing 'god'"
      > > or otherwise part of an atheist agenda? Do you think this
      > > movie's 'god' and his other-universe naughty angels exist?
      Probably
      > > no more than you think Zeus exists.




      [[> Amazingly enough, no, I don't think it would have the same
      reactions.
      > I think the focus from the author, from the
      > little I know seems to be at the christian God..which is odd again,
      from
      > someone so sure he does not exist.]]



      You contradict yourself again, because you said that no one can
      kill 'god'. Presumably you meant the Christian 'god' when you said
      this, and yet you suggest that the story 'god' is the Christian 'god'
      and killing this 'god' is part of the story.




      LOGOS
    • carlo
      ... Their sin Was it there lack of love, compassion and giving to their fellow man? Wasnt it there ability to FOLLOW the letter of the law to the point of
      Message 201 of 201 , Dec 4, 2007
        --- In achristianvsatheistclub@yahoogroups.com, kristinaholmes@...
        wrote:
        >
        > What was the issue that Jesus had with the scribes?

        Their sin






        Was it there lack of love, compassion and giving to their fellow man?
        Wasnt it there ability to FOLLOW the letter of the law to the point
        of losing the spirit of the law?
        >
        >
        >
        > -------------- Original message --------------
        > From: "carlo" <mygroups992000@...>
        > --- In
        achristianvsatheistclub@yahoogroups.com, "The_Dhampire_LOGOS"
        > <the_dhampire_logos@> wrote:
        > >
        > > --- In achristianvsatheistclub@yahoogroups.com, kristinaholmes@
        > > wrote:
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > > [[> Doesn't the bible say we will all be punished and reap what
        we
        > so
        > > rightly deserve. This doesnt refer to JUST doubtful or
        unbelieving
        > > souls but to believers as well. Who are we to decide where
        someone
        > is
        > > headed...heaven or hell?
        > > >
        > > > When the disciples asked Jesus what would become of Judas what
        > was
        > > His response?
        > > >
        > > > I fear that Christians are damning people to a "hell" that they
        > may
        > > find themselves in. After all the scriptures do say measure in
        > which
        > > you judge others so shall you be judged.
        > > >
        > > > Unbelief we know is not eternal....but LOVE most certainly is?
        > What
        > > does it profit a Christian to continuously tell a non-believer
        that
        > > they are going to hell? This makes no sense whatsoever in my
        mind.
        > If
        > > God has not shown or "proven" Himself in the eyes of a man NOW
        who
        > is
        > > to say He won't later?
        > > >
        > > > After all the scriptures do say "every knee shall bow and every
        > > tongue shall proclaim that Jesus is Lord"
        > > >
        > > > How is it again that we are saved? If you believe in your
        > > heart...and what?.... confess with your mouth. I commend those
        who
        > > are outspoken enough to say they cant believe until they can see
        > with
        > > their own eyes. Thomas said it and Jesus did not chastise or
        > condemn
        > > him to "hell". Jesus said see for yourself Thomas and believe. It
        > > took courage for Thomas to stand before the other disciples, who
        > > said they had just seen Christ, and say I won't believe unless I
        > see
        > > for myself. This is what we are to do and its what we are to
        > > encourage others who are doubtful or even unbelieving to do.
        > Require
        > > that Christ reveals himself....I am convinced that He will. I am
        > full
        > > of compassion for souls that seek what seems to be impossible to
        > find
        > > and I am grieved every time I see someone who has said "they have
        > > come into the faith" condemn another who hasn't to hell. This is
        > not
        > > the way.....it is not the way at all.]]
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when
        he
        > > was set, his disciples came unto him: Jesus's Teachings
        > > And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,
        > > Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of
        > heaven.
        > > Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
        > > Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
        > > Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness:
        > for
        > > they shall be filled.
        > > Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
        > > Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
        > > Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the
        children
        > of
        > > God.
        > > Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake:
        for
        > > theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
        > > Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and
        > > shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
        > > Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in
        heaven:
        > > for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
        > > Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his
        savour,
        > > wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing,
        > but
        > > to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
        > > Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill
        cannot
        > > be hid.
        > > Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on
        a
        > > candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
        > > Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good
        > > works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > LOGOS
        > >
        >
        > Indeed! Thanks for the word of God, Locos.
        >
        > Here is some from the same chapter:
        >
        > "For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds(AI) that of the
        > scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."
        >
        > Be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect."
        >
        > Now go figure how that is possible in light of 'all have sinned and
        > fallen short of the glory of God.'
        >
        > (hint: active obedience...go find out what it means)
        >
        > NOw go figure
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
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