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Re: paul hughes-barlow and Why the Abramelin Ritual does not work

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  • Taliesin
    hey whoa, i am not affiliated with that site. i dont agree with everything Paul says, but if you read his pages he actually has a lot of interesting points.
    Message 1 of 13 , Jan 21, 2010
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      hey whoa, i am not affiliated with that site. i dont agree with everything Paul says, but if you read his pages he actually has a lot of interesting points.

      i've read most of his entire site now. he is no armchair magician.
      i am going to use some time tonight to make a list of his good points and i'll post it here. please dont delete this posts, because i would like to get your input on his points.


      --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, "Taliesin" <taliesin.lothlorien.gaia@...> wrote:
      >
      > are the rituals and circles and paraphernalia really unnecessary?
      > http://newtarot.com/magic/abramelin-ritual.htm
      > what do you think?
      >
      > tlg
      >
    • David Stolowitz
      Yea, I agree with Athena - it sounds like he hasn t even read the book. He totally misconstrues and misunderstands the entire concept of the HGA. I have a ton
      Message 2 of 13 , Jan 21, 2010
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        Yea, I agree with Athena - it sounds like he hasn't even read the book. He totally misconstrues and misunderstands the entire concept of the HGA. I have a ton of spirits at my command and there are over 365 of them in Abramelin alone. And while the connection does honor to Jesus, it isn't all about him - its about us and God.

        Of course you don't NEED this operation to work with spirits, but I think it can only help you along your path.
      • Taliesin
        this is one of paul s points i was going to address: he says he has never done the abramelin operation, but he has worked a lot with spirits and they have come
        Message 3 of 13 , Jan 22, 2010
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          this is one of paul's points i was going to address:
          he says he has never done the abramelin operation, but he has worked a lot with spirits and they have come to him. he doesnt conjure them in the traditional goetic/abramelinic sense. he says they (the goetia/jinn) want to work with humans and are not evil and conjuring them only makes them angry and unwilling to cooperate, but they are actually good natured. i read on athena's site that she said something similar about them actually being very cooperative and there is no need for the hellfire and damnation aspects of conjuration. correct me if i'm wrong athena...

          tlg

          --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, "David Stolowitz" <david@...> wrote:
          >
          > Yea, I agree with Athena - it sounds like he hasn't even read the book. He totally misconstrues and misunderstands the entire concept of the HGA. I have a ton of spirits at my command and there are over 365 of them in Abramelin alone. And while the connection does honor to Jesus, it isn't all about him - its about us and God.
          >
          > Of course you don't NEED this operation to work with spirits, but I think it can only help you along your path.
          >
        • Khem Caigan
          ... ... I suggest that everyone here subscribing to this opinion go back and actually /read/ the *Lemegeton*, so that they may see just how wrong it is
          Message 4 of 13 , Jan 22, 2010
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            Daniel Culver doth schreibble :
            >
            <SNIPS>
            > There is nowhere in the greater or lesser keys of Solomon that instructs
            > you to obtain your knowledge and conversation of your HGA.

            I suggest that everyone here subscribing to
            this opinion go back and actually /read/
            the *Lemegeton*, so that they may see just
            how wrong it is for themselves :

            *The Second Part of the Art Pauline.*

            " Which containeth the Mystical names of
            the Angels of the signs in general, and
            also the names of the Angels of every
            degree and the signs in general who are
            called the angels of men: because in
            some one of those signs and degrees,
            every man is born under. Therefore he
            that knoweth the moment of his Birth
            he may know the angel that governeth
            him [by the following art]: and thereby
            he may obtain to all arts and sciences,
            yea to all ye wisdom and knowledge that
            any mortal man can desire in this world..."

            *The Conjuration of the Holy Guardian Angel*

            " O thou great and blessed N. my angel guardian,
            vouchsafe to descend from thy holy mansion
            which is Celestial, with thy holy Influence
            and presence, into this crystal stone, that
            I may behold thy glory; and enjoy thy society,
            aid and assistance, both now and for ever
            hereafter.

            O thou who art higher than the fourth heaven,
            and knoweth the secrets of Elanel. Thou that
            rideth upon the wings of the winds and art
            mighty and potent in thy Celestial and
            superlunary motion, do thou descend and be
            present I pray thee; and I humbly desire
            and entreat thee. That if ever I have merited
            Thy society or if any of my actions and
            Intentions be real and pure & sanctified
            before thee bring thy external presence
            hither, and converse with me one of thy
            submissive pupils, By and in the name of
            the great god Jehovah, whereunto the whole
            choir of heaven singeth continually :
            O Mappa la man Hallelujah. Amen. "

            ~ from :

            *The Lemegeton, or*
            *The Lesser Key of Solomon :*
            *Book 3 : The Pauline Art*
            @ EsotericArchives.com
            http://tinyurl.com/d58se

            Cors in Manu Domine,


            ~ Khem Caigan
            <Khem@...>

            " Every Angel who is an Archon of the
            zodiacal sign (/sar mazzal/) of a person
            when it is sent below has the image of
            the person who is under it....

            And this is the meaning of 'And God
            created man in His image, in the image
            of God He created him' (Gen. 1:27).

            Why is [it written] twice, 'in His image'
            and 'in the image'?

            One image refers to the image of man and
            the other to the image of the Angel of
            the zodiacal sign that is in the image
            of the man. "

            ~ from:
            *Hokhmah ha-Nefesh*,
            by R. Eleazar of Worms

            [ Note : /mazzal/ means constellation,
            planet, planetary influence, destiny,
            and guardian angel.

            It is associated with the root *MZL*, meaning
            "to flow", which, in the *Zohar*, refers to
            the flow emanating from the divine phallus,
            comprised by the spheres from Binah through
            Yesod.

            Yesod conveys this flow to the Shekinah,
            engendering the souls of the newborn. ]
          • David Stolowitz
            Well of course they want to work with humans - its more power to them. They are a tricky bunch though, and regardless of their intentions (which are
            Message 5 of 13 , Jan 22, 2010
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              Well of course they want to work with humans - its more power to them. They are a tricky bunch though, and regardless of their intentions (which are notoriously difficult to pin down), they often lack the bigger perspective of things.

              Any time you start thinking these spirits are so great, just make them tell you how they fell. That'll clear things right up!
            • daniel c
              So if that prayer has the same effect as the result of the abramelin working, what is the point of doing the whole operation? That sounds more like a prayer
              Message 6 of 13 , Jan 22, 2010
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                So if that prayer has the same effect as the result of the abramelin working, what is the point of doing the whole operation? That sounds more like a prayer asking the angel to be present and bless the task at hand?


                --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Khem Caigan <Khem@...> wrote:
                >
                > Daniel Culver doth schreibble :
                > >
                > <SNIPS>
                > > There is nowhere in the greater or lesser keys of Solomon that instructs
                > > you to obtain your knowledge and conversation of your HGA.
                >
                > I suggest that everyone here subscribing to
                > this opinion go back and actually /read/
                > the *Lemegeton*, so that they may see just
                > how wrong it is for themselves :
                >
                > *The Second Part of the Art Pauline.*
                >
                > " Which containeth the Mystical names of
                > the Angels of the signs in general, and
                > also the names of the Angels of every
                > degree and the signs in general who are
                > called the angels of men: because in
                > some one of those signs and degrees,
                > every man is born under. Therefore he
                > that knoweth the moment of his Birth
                > he may know the angel that governeth
                > him [by the following art]: and thereby
                > he may obtain to all arts and sciences,
                > yea to all ye wisdom and knowledge that
                > any mortal man can desire in this world..."
                >
                > *The Conjuration of the Holy Guardian Angel*
                >
                > " O thou great and blessed N. my angel guardian,
                > vouchsafe to descend from thy holy mansion
                > which is Celestial, with thy holy Influence
                > and presence, into this crystal stone, that
                > I may behold thy glory; and enjoy thy society,
                > aid and assistance, both now and for ever
                > hereafter.
                >
                > O thou who art higher than the fourth heaven,
                > and knoweth the secrets of Elanel. Thou that
                > rideth upon the wings of the winds and art
                > mighty and potent in thy Celestial and
                > superlunary motion, do thou descend and be
                > present I pray thee; and I humbly desire
                > and entreat thee. That if ever I have merited
                > Thy society or if any of my actions and
                > Intentions be real and pure & sanctified
                > before thee bring thy external presence
                > hither, and converse with me one of thy
                > submissive pupils, By and in the name of
                > the great god Jehovah, whereunto the whole
                > choir of heaven singeth continually :
                > O Mappa la man Hallelujah. Amen. "
                >
                > ~ from :
                >
                > *The Lemegeton, or*
                > *The Lesser Key of Solomon :*
                > *Book 3 : The Pauline Art*
                > @ EsotericArchives.com
                > http://tinyurl.com/d58se
                >
                > Cors in Manu Domine,
                >
                >
                > ~ Khem Caigan
                > <Khem@...>
                >
                > " Every Angel who is an Archon of the
                > zodiacal sign (/sar mazzal/) of a person
                > when it is sent below has the image of
                > the person who is under it....
                >
                > And this is the meaning of 'And God
                > created man in His image, in the image
                > of God He created him' (Gen. 1:27).
                >
                > Why is [it written] twice, 'in His image'
                > and 'in the image'?
                >
                > One image refers to the image of man and
                > the other to the image of the Angel of
                > the zodiacal sign that is in the image
                > of the man. "
                >
                > ~ from:
                > *Hokhmah ha-Nefesh*,
                > by R. Eleazar of Worms
                >
                > [ Note : /mazzal/ means constellation,
                > planet, planetary influence, destiny,
                > and guardian angel.
                >
                > It is associated with the root *MZL*, meaning
                > "to flow", which, in the *Zohar*, refers to
                > the flow emanating from the divine phallus,
                > comprised by the spheres from Binah through
                > Yesod.
                >
                > Yesod conveys this flow to the Shekinah,
                > engendering the souls of the newborn. ]
                >
              • Khem Caigan
                ... Read it again : ...that I may behold thy glory; and enjoy thy society, aid and assistance, /both now and forever hereafter/. And that is just /one/
                Message 7 of 13 , Jan 22, 2010
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                  Daniel Culver doth schreibble :
                  >
                  > So if that prayer has the same effect as the result of the abramelin<sic>
                  > working, what is the point of doing the whole operation? That sounds more
                  > like a prayer asking the angel to be present and bless the task at hand?

                  Read it again :

                  "...that I may behold thy glory; and enjoy thy society,
                  aid and assistance, /both now and forever hereafter/. "

                  And that is just /one/ version of
                  the prayer, from only /one/ of the
                  versions of the *Lemegeton*.

                  Once you begin to go through the
                  manuscripts of the various grimoires
                  that are available from libraries around
                  the world, you will find that nearly all
                  of the texts have been abbreviated in
                  places - for example, the Almadel up on
                  Joe's site only addresses the four directions
                  and seasons, instead of all twelve signs of
                  the zodiac that we find in other versions.

                  You will also find differences in the
                  instructions regarding purification and
                  purging and sequestration, and in how often
                  one is to perform certain operations.

                  But the point of doing the whole operation,
                  whichever operation that may be for you,
                  remains exactly the same.

                  Cors in Manu Domine,


                  ~ Khem Caigan
                  <Khem@...>

                  " Every Angel who is an Archon of the
                  zodiacal sign (/sar mazzal/) of a person
                  when it is sent below has the image of
                  the person who is under it....

                  And this is the meaning of 'And God
                  created man in His image, in the image
                  of God He created him' (Gen. 1:27).

                  Why is [it written] twice, 'in His image'
                  and 'in the image'?

                  One image refers to the image of man and
                  the other to the image of the Angel of
                  the zodiacal sign that is in the image
                  of the man. "

                  ~ from:
                  *Hokhmah ha-Nefesh*,
                  by R. Eleazar of Worms

                  [ Note : /mazzal/ means constellation,
                  planet, planetary influence, destiny,
                  and guardian angel.

                  It is associated with the root *MZL*, meaning
                  "to flow", which, in the *Zohar*, refers to
                  the flow emanating from the divine phallus,
                  comprised by the spheres from Binah through
                  Yesod.

                  Yesod conveys this flow to the Shekinah,
                  engendering the souls of the newborn.
                • daniel c
                  That didn t really answer my question, but thanks for the info
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jan 22, 2010
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                    That didn't really answer my question, but thanks for the info

                    --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Khem Caigan <Khem@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Daniel Culver doth schreibble :
                    > >
                    > > So if that prayer has the same effect as the result of the abramelin<sic>
                    > > working, what is the point of doing the whole operation? That sounds more
                    > > like a prayer asking the angel to be present and bless the task at hand?
                    >
                    > Read it again :
                    >
                    > "...that I may behold thy glory; and enjoy thy society,
                    > aid and assistance, /both now and forever hereafter/. "
                    >
                    > And that is just /one/ version of
                    > the prayer, from only /one/ of the
                    > versions of the *Lemegeton*.
                    >
                    > Once you begin to go through the
                    > manuscripts of the various grimoires
                    > that are available from libraries around
                    > the world, you will find that nearly all
                    > of the texts have been abbreviated in
                    > places - for example, the Almadel up on
                    > Joe's site only addresses the four directions
                    > and seasons, instead of all twelve signs of
                    > the zodiac that we find in other versions.
                    >
                    > You will also find differences in the
                    > instructions regarding purification and
                    > purging and sequestration, and in how often
                    > one is to perform certain operations.
                    >
                    > But the point of doing the whole operation,
                    > whichever operation that may be for you,
                    > remains exactly the same.
                    >
                    > Cors in Manu Domine,
                    >
                    >
                    > ~ Khem Caigan
                    > <Khem@...>
                    >
                    > " Every Angel who is an Archon of the
                    > zodiacal sign (/sar mazzal/) of a person
                    > when it is sent below has the image of
                    > the person who is under it....
                    >
                    > And this is the meaning of 'And God
                    > created man in His image, in the image
                    > of God He created him' (Gen. 1:27).
                    >
                    > Why is [it written] twice, 'in His image'
                    > and 'in the image'?
                    >
                    > One image refers to the image of man and
                    > the other to the image of the Angel of
                    > the zodiacal sign that is in the image
                    > of the man. "
                    >
                    > ~ from:
                    > *Hokhmah ha-Nefesh*,
                    > by R. Eleazar of Worms
                    >
                    > [ Note : /mazzal/ means constellation,
                    > planet, planetary influence, destiny,
                    > and guardian angel.
                    >
                    > It is associated with the root *MZL*, meaning
                    > "to flow", which, in the *Zohar*, refers to
                    > the flow emanating from the divine phallus,
                    > comprised by the spheres from Binah through
                    > Yesod.
                    >
                    > Yesod conveys this flow to the Shekinah,
                    > engendering the souls of the newborn.
                    >
                  • georg_dehn
                    that guy has quite some knowledge, but he seems a bit jealous. Subconsciously, a spirit talks out of him, it is the ghost of his master. He relates to his
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jan 26, 2010
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                      that guy has quite some knowledge,

                      but he seems a bit jealous. Subconsciously, a spirit talks out of him, it is the ghost of his master. He relates to his Guru, he talks much about Jesus Christ, he is not in the state of having independend personal communication.

                      It is hard to judge over somebody like that, but I feel his confusion and urge to hold his own believe structure free of influence.

                      Georg




                      --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, "David Stolowitz" <david@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Well of course they want to work with humans - its more power to them. They are a tricky bunch though, and regardless of their intentions (which are notoriously difficult to pin down), they often lack the bigger perspective of things.
                      >
                      > Any time you start thinking these spirits are so great, just make them tell you how they fell. That'll clear things right up!
                      >
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