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Re: Good and Evil in the Abramelin Operation

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  • shivagodmind
    Wow, cool, thanks for sharing that. It s cool to see how different people s experiences are with the operation.
    Message 1 of 20 , Nov 23, 2009
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      Wow, cool, thanks for sharing that. It's cool to see how different people's experiences are with the operation.

      --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, "David Stolowitz" <david@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > If you look at book 3 and 4, the different magical effects and their attendant spirits are grouped as "good", "evil", and a neutral category that Abe says can only be performed "with the permission of the HGA". "Its easier to acquire squares from the evil spirits" Abe says, proceeding to outline the method. He then goes to state though that he has only done so in order to "demonstrate the full possibilities of the magic." This is one of those classic medieval magical contradictions (or seeming contradictions at the least).
      >
      > There are two separate rituals to acquire additional square spells based on whether the origin is angelic or demonic. Abraham outlines the different chapters based both on which spirits carry out the effects and which spirits inspired the magic to begin with. Based on not only these books but Abraham's experiences and travels in the first book, it would seem that the evil spirits, on their own, can only inspire negative kinds of magic that result in destruction and harm. Compelled and supervised by good spirits and/or the HGA however, they can be put to more useful ends and purposes.
      >
      > The good spirits on their own, from what I've gathered thusfar, seem limited to divination and more intangible effects. The lesser spirits, from whom Franz Bardon drew his 360, seem organized under the dukes based mainly on directional attributes, and perhaps secondarily on specific abilities and powers attributed to particular dukes. The largest grouping is around the four cardinal dukes, from whom also the four main familiars are granted. After that, one or two dukes each get a category of supervision. The pairings seem based on either opposite or contiguous directions.
      >
      > "This magic is a sword in your hand, and you can use it to cut off the Lord and his angels if you choose" (Paraphrase). Abe VW believed that everyone who peformed magic received their power either from God, the Devils, or a neutral and perhaps natural source (he outlines one or two examples of masters who "called on neither god nor devil").
      >
      > In the course of your operation and calling you will discover the best source of power for yourself personally. I myself am Gnostic and not inclined to pay heed to Demiurge or Devil, and my operation took a decidedly heterodox direction despite my willingness to submit to "God" and do the whole operation by the book. Even though I struggled to force myself into Abraham VW's mindset even while trying to learn as much as I could about the operation and the HGA from modern practitioners, it ended up taking me in a very unique and individual direction. I was never given the chance to do the Orthodox operation and receive a standard "Angel of the LORD".
      >
      > I held off because of the age restriction and poured so much energy and time into making as perfect a preparation as I could. But somewhere along the way I actually ended up, unknowingly, carrying out the operation itself. I actually received the Knowledge and Conversation on my 25th birthday very unexpectedly. I did not receive an exterior angelic entity to supervise me, but others have and no doubt will. A lot of the outcome of the operation depends on how far along you are in your spiritual-magical growth at the time and where you are coming from and going in your religious and spiritual devotions and pursuits.
      >
      > Crowley and others defined the K&C of HGA as a primarily solar rite that ought to be performed by Minor Adepts just beginning the Intermediate mysteries (the Order of the Ruby Rose and Golden Cross). This is fine if you want to receive an exterior assistant like the kind that Brother Rufus outlines in his class.
      >
      > I was a Magister Templi however (via Rosicrucian initiations) when I began the preparation for my operations. I followed the instructions for study throughly and not only read the book multiple times as commanded, but researched extensively the whole background and nature of the operation. My experience of it was more saturnine than solar, and the system (which very much has a mind and calling of its own) decided to just propel me across the Abyss instead of bothering to give me some typical Judeo-Christian angel to tell me how to live my life. I ended up turning more to the Necronomicon than Abramelin in order to understand what had happened; I had been comparing and contrasting the Nec's Watcher summoning process with the HGA calling. The trans-abyssal experience, which is also called the Ritual of Descent, is literally mind-blowing, and in the course of it I was permanently changed. I am my own angel now, and it was told to me that I was also, on the deepest and truest level, the very God that I feared and sought to submit myself to. That may sound arrogant but I don't claim this for myself alone - we are ALL GOD at the heart of things.
      >
      > As they say on the groups, "Individual mileage WILL vary."
      >
      > David
      >
    • yakov.benyakov
      Originally Posted in the practical-kabbalah YahooGroup: Why Practical Kabbalah Isn t Considered Magic Magic , white magic , etc., when discussed as an act
      Message 2 of 20 , Feb 13, 2010
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        Originally Posted in the practical-kabbalah YahooGroup:

        Why Practical Kabbalah Isn't Considered "Magic"

        "Magic", "white magic", etc., when discussed as an act the Jewish mystic performs is used for lack of a better term for Jewish mystics who were creating golems, exorcising evil spirits, creating amulets, etc

        In fact in the Bible Daniel is called "Master of Magicians" (Dan. 4:6(9); 5:11)

        Today "Magician", "witch", and "sorcerer" are typically titles given to Torah adversaries who make use of unholy names, demons, other gods, or other harmful practices. In Exodus we find "Thou shalt not tolerate a sorceress to live." (22:17)

        The practical Kabbalists' use of Names of YHWH and divine invocation, on the other hand, was considered something of a higher class of action. More often the Jewish sages simply describe what the Jewish mystic or wonder-worker does, or may use broad phrases such as, "by means of the Kabbalah" or "by means of a holy Name".

        Despite their view of themselves, accusations leveled against Jews in centuries past included sorcery and witchcraft. It's not so surprising, really. They often lived in a segregated community, spoke foreign languages (i.e., Hebrew, Yiddish), had special rules for eating, and different holidays and rituals not understood by the people living near them One of the most common myths was that they would snatch Christian children and use their blood to make Passover matzot (unleavened bread). Another was their association with "witchcraft".

        In contrast to Christianity, it is the method of performing "magic", and not the act of doing it in the first place, which caused debate in Jewish circles. Rules were established and lines were drawn between what was forbidden and what was permitted.
        Forbidden Practices

        1. Any act which is performed without divine or related supernatural aid. In other words, any act which does not rely in some way on the power of God and/or His creations (e.g., angels).

        2. Inappropriate use of the Divine to do harm, serve greed, or to gratuitously defy nature.

        3. The use of sympathetic magic; that is, affecting someone or something from a distance through the use of an image or effigy (like a doll). This would generally be considered manipulating the inner nature of a person or thing without divine aid.

        5. That which creates an illusion, because illusions are the creations of demons.

        6. "Black Magic", necromancy, the use of unholy Names, etc. Knowledge of these matters was not forbidden (since it was sometimes necessary to combat the forces of evil), but practicing them was. Unfortunately, because information on the "black arts" was sometimes included in the same book as information on acceptable, practical Kabbalah, this contributed to the negative reputation of the practical Kabbalists.

        Permitted Practices

        1. That which invokes YHWH or other supernatural aid (e.g., angels).

        2. That which relies on the use of divine Names (YHWH, Yah,ELOHIM, AGLA, etc.).


        The point, and the most important thing to keep in mind, is that the power lies not with man/woman, but with YHWH. It is the man/woman¹s piety, virtue, and knowledge which allows him to call on this divine aid–not a small thing at all, when you think about it. As long as the process involved divine intervention for the right reasons, it was acceptable.
      • tlg
        really cool yakov, thanks! the reference about daniel was also really interesting, i dont remember reading that part before (although i have read it). if i
        Message 3 of 20 , Feb 14, 2010
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          really cool yakov, thanks! the reference about daniel was also really interesting, i dont remember reading that part before (although i have read it). if i could favorite this post i would =)

          tlg

          2010/2/14 yakov.benyakov <yakov.benyakov@...>
           


          Originally Posted in the practical-kabbalah YahooGroup:

          Why Practical Kabbalah Isn't Considered "Magic"

          "Magic", "white magic", etc., when discussed as an act the Jewish mystic performs is used for lack of a better term for Jewish mystics who were creating golems, exorcising evil spirits, creating amulets, etc

          In fact in the Bible Daniel is called "Master of Magicians" (Dan. 4:6(9); 5:11)

          Today "Magician", "witch", and "sorcerer" are typically titles given to Torah adversaries who make use of unholy names, demons, other gods, or other harmful practices. In Exodus we find "Thou shalt not tolerate a sorceress to live." (22:17)

          The practical Kabbalists' use of Names of YHWH and divine invocation, on the other hand, was considered something of a higher class of action. More often the Jewish sages simply describe what the Jewish mystic or wonder-worker does, or may use broad phrases such as, "by means of the Kabbalah" or "by means of a holy Name".

          Despite their view of themselves, accusations leveled against Jews in centuries past included sorcery and witchcraft. It's not so surprising, really. They often lived in a segregated community, spoke foreign languages (i.e., Hebrew, Yiddish), had special rules for eating, and different holidays and rituals not understood by the people living near them One of the most common myths was that they would snatch Christian children and use their blood to make Passover matzot (unleavened bread). Another was their association with "witchcraft".

          In contrast to Christianity, it is the method of performing "magic", and not the act of doing it in the first place, which caused debate in Jewish circles. Rules were established and lines were drawn between what was forbidden and what was permitted.
          Forbidden Practices

          1. Any act which is performed without divine or related supernatural aid. In other words, any act which does not rely in some way on the power of God and/or His creations (e.g., angels).

          2. Inappropriate use of the Divine to do harm, serve greed, or to gratuitously defy nature.

          3. The use of sympathetic magic; that is, affecting someone or something from a distance through the use of an image or effigy (like a doll). This would generally be considered manipulating the inner nature of a person or thing without divine aid.

          5. That which creates an illusion, because illusions are the creations of demons.

          6. "Black Magic", necromancy, the use of unholy Names, etc. Knowledge of these matters was not forbidden (since it was sometimes necessary to combat the forces of evil), but practicing them was. Unfortunately, because information on the "black arts" was sometimes included in the same book as information on acceptable, practical Kabbalah, this contributed to the negative reputation of the practical Kabbalists.

          Permitted Practices

          1. That which invokes YHWH or other supernatural aid (e.g., angels).

          2. That which relies on the use of divine Names (YHWH, Yah,ELOHIM, AGLA, etc.).

          The point, and the most important thing to keep in mind, is that the power lies not with man/woman, but with YHWH. It is the man/woman¹s piety, virtue, and knowledge which allows him to call on this divine aid–not a small thing at all, when you think about it. As long as the process involved divine intervention for the right reasons, it was acceptable.




        • yakov.benyakov
          Talmudic Discussion on Sorcery vs. Practical Kabbalah MISHNAH. A MADDIAH IS ONE WHO SAYS, `LET US GO AND SERVE IDOLS . A SORCERER, IF HE ACTUALLY PERFORMS
          Message 4 of 20 , Feb 18, 2010
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            Talmudic Discussion on Sorcery vs. Practical Kabbalah

            MISHNAH. A MADDIAH IS ONE WHO SAYS, `LET US GO AND SERVE IDOLS'. A SORCERER, IF HE ACTUALLY PERFORMS MAGIC, IS LIABLE [TO DEATH]. BUT NOT IF HE MERELY CREATES ILLUSIONS.13 R. AKIBA SAID IN R. JOSHUA'S NAME: OF TWO WHO GATHER CUCUMBERS [BY MAGIC] ONE MAY BE PUNISHED AND THE OTHER EXEMPT: HE WHO REALLY GATHERS THEM IS PUNISHED: WHILST HE WHO PRODUCES AN ILLUSION IS EXEMPT.

            GEMARA. Rab Judah said in Rab's name: This Mishnah teaches of those who lead astray a seduced city.14

            A SORCERER, IF HE ACTUALLY PERFORMS MAGIC etc. Our Rabbis taught: [Thou shalt not suffer] a witch [to live]:15 this applies to both man and woman. If so, why is a [female] witch stated? — Because mostly women engage in witchcraft. How are they executed? — R. Jose the Galilean said: Here it is written, Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live; whilst elsewhere is written, Thou shalt not suffer anything that breatheth to live.16 Just as there, the sword is meant, so here is the sword meant too. R. Akiba said: It is here stated, Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live; whilst elsewhere it is said, [There shall not a hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through;] whether it be beast or man, it shall not live.17 Just as there, death by stoning is meant, so here too. R. Jose said to him, I have drawn an analogy between `Thou shalt not suffer to live' written in two verses, whilst you have made a comparison between `Thou shalt not suffer to live', and `It shall not live'. R. Akiba replied: I have drawn an analogy between two verses referring to Israelites, for whom the Writ hath decreed many modes of execution,18 whilst you have compared Israelites to heathens, in whose case only [b.San. 67b] one death penalty is decreed.1 Ben `Azzai said:2 It is here written, Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live, whilst [immediately after] it is said, Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death.3 Now, this is placed in proximity, teaching that just as the latter is stoned, so is the former. Thereupon R. Judah said to him: Shall we, because of this proximity, exclude the former [from the easier death implied by an unspecified death sentence] changing it to stoning?4 But [reason this:] The ob and yidde'oni were included among other sorcerers.5 Why were they singled out?6 That other sorcerers may be assimilated to them, and to teach thee, just as the ob and yidde'oni are stoned, so are all other sorcerers stoned. But even according to R. Judah, are not ob and yidde'oni two statements teaching the same thing, and two statements teaching the same thing cannot throw light upon anything else?7 — R. Zechariah answered: For this very reason R. Judah is generally said to maintain that even two statements singled out for the same purpose illumine the proposition as a whole.8

            R. Johanan said: Why are they [sorcerers] called Kashshafim?9 — Because they lessen the power of the Divine agencies.10

            There is none else besides Him:11 R. Hanina said: Even by sorcery.12 A woman once attempted to take earth from under R. Hanina's feet.13 He said to her, `If you succeed in your attempts, go and practise it [sc. sorcery]: it is written, however, There is none else beside him'. But that is not so, for did not R. Johanan say: Why are they called mekashshefim?14 Because they lessen the power of the Divine agencies? — R. Hanina was in a different category, owing to his abundant merit.15

            R. Abaye b. Nagri said in the name of R. Hiyya b. Abba: Belatehem refers to magic through the agency of demons, belahatehem to sorcery [without outside help].16 And thus it is also said, And the flame [Heb. lahat] of the sword that turns of itself.17

            Abaye said: The sorcerer who insists on exact paraphernalia18 works through demons; he who does not works by pure enchantment.

            Abaye said: The laws of sorcerers are like those of the Sabbath: certain actions are punished by stoning, some are exempt from punishment, yet forbidden, whilst others are entirely permitted. Thus: if one actually performs magic, he is stoned; if he merely creates an illusion, he is exempt, yet it is forbidden; whilst what is entirely permitted? — Such as was performed by R. Hanina and R. Oshaia, who spent every Sabbath eve in studying the Laws of Creation, by means of which they created a third-grown calf and ate it.19

            R. Ashi said: I saw Karna's father20 blow his nose violently and streamers of silk issued from his nostrils.

            Then the magicians said unto Pharoah, This is the finger of God:21 R. Eleazar, said: This proves that a magician cannot produce a creature less than a barley corn in size. R. Papa said: By God! he cannot produce even something as large as a camel; but these [larger than a barley corn] he can [magically] collect [and so produce the illusion that he has magically created them], the others he cannot.

            Rab said to R. Hiyya: `I myself saw an Arabian traveller take a sword and cut up a camel; then he rang a bell, at which the camel arose.' He replied, `After that, was there any blood or dung? But that was merely an illusion.'

            Ze'iri happened to go to Alexandria in Egypt and bought an ass. When he was about to water it, it dissolved, and there stood before him a landing board.22 The vendors then said to him; `Were you not Ze'iri, we would net return you [your money]: does anyone buy anything here without first testing it by water?'23

            Jannai24 came to an inn. He said to them, `Give me a drink of water,' and they offered him shattitha.25 Seeing the lips of the woman [who brought him this] moving,26 he [covertly] spilled a little thereof, which turned to snakes. Then he said, `As I have drunk of yours, now do you come and drink of mine.' So he gave her to drink, and she was turned into an ass he then rode upon her into the market. But her friend came and broke the charm [changing her back into a human being], and so he was seen riding upon a woman in public.

            And the frog came up, and covered the land of Egypt.27 R. Eleazar said: It was one frog, which bred prolifically and filled the land. This is a matter disputed by Tannaim. R. Akiba said: There was one frog which filled the whole of Egypt [by breeding]. But R. Eleazar b. Azariah said to him, `Akiba, What hast thou to do with Haggadah?28 Cease thy words and devote thyself to `Leprosies' and `Tents.'29 One frog croaked for the others, and they came'.

            R. AKIBA SAID, etc. [b.San. 68a]

            But did R. Akiba learn this from R. Joshua? Surely it has been taught: When R. Eliezer fell sick, R. Akiba and his companions went to visit him. He was seated in his canopied four-poster, whilst they sat in his salon.1 That day was Sabbath eve, and his son Hyrcanus went in to him to remove his phylacteries.2 But his father rebuked him, and he retreated crestfallen. `It seems to me,' said he to them, `that my father's mind is deranged'.3 But R. Akiba said to them, `his mind is clear, but his mother's [sc. of Hyrcanus] is deranged:4 how can one neglect a prohibition which is punished by death, and turn his attention to something which is merely forbidden as a shebuth?'5 The Sages, seeing that his mind was clear, entered his chamber and sat down at a distance of four cubits.6 `Why have ye come?' said he to them. `To study the Torah', they replied; `And why did ye not come before now', he asked? They answered, `We had no time'. He then said, `I will be surprised if these die a natural death'. R. Akiba asked him, `And what will my death be?' and he answered, `Yours will be more cruel than theirs'. He then put his two arms over his heart, and bewailed them, saying, `Woe to you, two arms of mine, that have been like two Scrolls of the Law that are wrapped up.7 Much Torah have I studied, and much have I taught.8 Much Torah have I learnt, yet have I but skimmed from the knowledge of my teachers as much as a dog lapping from the sea. Much Torah have I taught, yet my disciples have only drawn from me as much as a painting stick from its tube. Moreover, I have studied three hundred laws on the subject of a deep bright spot,9 yet no man has ever asked me about them. Moreover, I have studied three hundred, (or, as others state, three thousand laws) about the planting of cucumbers [by magic] and no man, excepting Akiba b. Joseph, ever questioned me thereon. For it once happened that he and I were walking together on a road, when he said to me, "My master, teach me about the planting of cucumbers". I made one statement, and the whole field [about us] was filled with cucumbers. Then he said, "Master, you have taught me how to plant them, now teach me how to pluck them up". I said something and all the cucumbers gathered in one place'. His visitors then asked him, `What is the law of a ball, a shoemaker's last , an amulet, a leather bag containing pearls, and a small weight?'10 He replied, `They can become unclean, and if unclean, they are restored to their uncleanliness just as they are.'11 Then they asked him, `What of a shoe that is on the last?'12 He replied, `It is clean;' and in pronouncing this word his soul departed. Then R. Joshua arose and exclaimed, `The vow is annulled, the vow is annulled!'13 On the conclusion of the Sabbath R. Akiba met his bier being carried from Caesarea to Lydda. [In his grief] he beat his flesh until the blood flowed down upon the earth — Then R. Akiba commenced his funeral address, the mourners being lined up about the coffin, and said: `My father, my father, the chariot of Israel and the horsemen thereof;14 I have many coins, but no money changer to accept them.'15 Thus from this story we see that he learned this [sc. the producing of cucumbers by magic] from R. Eliezer? — He learned it from R. Eliezer, but did not grasp it, then he learned it from R. Joshua, who made it clear to him.

            But how might R. Eliezer do so?16 Did we not learn, IF HE ACTUALly PERFORMS MAGIC, HE IS LIABLE? — If it is only to teach, it is different. For it has been said, Thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of these nations:17 thou mayest not learn in order to practise, but thou mayest learn in order to understand.18
            (b. Sanhedrin 67a-68a to m.Sanhedrin 7)
          • tlg
            yet again, another interesting post, thanks yakov =) 2010/2/19 yakov.benyakov ... yet again, another interesting post, thanks yakov
            Message 5 of 20 , Feb 18, 2010
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              yet again, another interesting post, thanks yakov =)

              2010/2/19 yakov.benyakov <yakov.benyakov@...>
               


              Talmudic Discussion on Sorcery vs. Practical Kabbalah

              MISHNAH. A MADDIAH IS ONE WHO SAYS, `LET US GO AND SERVE IDOLS'. A SORCERER, IF HE ACTUALLY PERFORMS MAGIC, IS LIABLE [TO DEATH]. BUT NOT IF HE MERELY CREATES ILLUSIONS.13 R. AKIBA SAID IN R. JOSHUA'S NAME: OF TWO WHO GATHER CUCUMBERS [BY MAGIC] ONE MAY BE PUNISHED AND THE OTHER EXEMPT: HE WHO REALLY GATHERS THEM IS PUNISHED: WHILST HE WHO PRODUCES AN ILLUSION IS EXEMPT.

              GEMARA. Rab Judah said in Rab's name: This Mishnah teaches of those who lead astray a seduced city.14

              A SORCERER, IF HE ACTUALLY PERFORMS MAGIC etc. Our Rabbis taught: [Thou shalt not suffer] a witch [to live]:15 this applies to both man and woman. If so, why is a [female] witch stated? — Because mostly women engage in witchcraft. How are they executed? — R. Jose the Galilean said: Here it is written, Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live; whilst elsewhere is written, Thou shalt not suffer anything that breatheth to live.16 Just as there, the sword is meant, so here is the sword meant too. R. Akiba said: It is here stated, Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live; whilst elsewhere it is said, [There shall not a hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through;] whether it be beast or man, it shall not live.17 Just as there, death by stoning is meant, so here too. R. Jose said to him, I have drawn an analogy between `Thou shalt not suffer to live' written in two verses, whilst you have made a comparison between `Thou shalt not suffer to live', and `It shall not live'. R. Akiba replied: I have drawn an analogy between two verses referring to Israelites, for whom the Writ hath decreed many modes of execution,18 whilst you have compared Israelites to heathens, in whose case only [b.San. 67b] one death penalty is decreed.1 Ben `Azzai said:2 It is here written, Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live, whilst [immediately after] it is said, Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death.3 Now, this is placed in proximity, teaching that just as the latter is stoned, so is the former. Thereupon R. Judah said to him: Shall we, because of this proximity, exclude the former [from the easier death implied by an unspecified death sentence] changing it to stoning?4 But [reason this:] The ob and yidde'oni were included among other sorcerers.5 Why were they singled out?6 That other sorcerers may be assimilated to them, and to teach thee, just as the ob and yidde'oni are stoned, so are all other sorcerers stoned. But even according to R. Judah, are not ob and yidde'oni two statements teaching the same thing, and two statements teaching the same thing cannot throw light upon anything else?7 — R. Zechariah answered: For this very reason R. Judah is generally said to maintain that even two statements singled out for the same purpose illumine the proposition as a whole.8

              R. Johanan said: Why are they [sorcerers] called Kashshafim?9 — Because they lessen the power of the Divine agencies.10

              There is none else besides Him:11 R. Hanina said: Even by sorcery.12 A woman once attempted to take earth from under R. Hanina's feet.13 He said to her, `If you succeed in your attempts, go and practise it [sc. sorcery]: it is written, however, There is none else beside him'. But that is not so, for did not R. Johanan say: Why are they called mekashshefim?14 Because they lessen the power of the Divine agencies? — R. Hanina was in a different category, owing to his abundant merit.15

              R. Abaye b. Nagri said in the name of R. Hiyya b. Abba: Belatehem refers to magic through the agency of demons, belahatehem to sorcery [without outside help].16 And thus it is also said, And the flame [Heb. lahat] of the sword that turns of itself.17

              Abaye said: The sorcerer who insists on exact paraphernalia18 works through demons; he who does not works by pure enchantment.

              Abaye said: The laws of sorcerers are like those of the Sabbath: certain actions are punished by stoning, some are exempt from punishment, yet forbidden, whilst others are entirely permitted. Thus: if one actually performs magic, he is stoned; if he merely creates an illusion, he is exempt, yet it is forbidden; whilst what is entirely permitted? — Such as was performed by R. Hanina and R. Oshaia, who spent every Sabbath eve in studying the Laws of Creation, by means of which they created a third-grown calf and ate it.19

              R. Ashi said: I saw Karna's father20 blow his nose violently and streamers of silk issued from his nostrils.

              Then the magicians said unto Pharoah, This is the finger of God:21 R. Eleazar, said: This proves that a magician cannot produce a creature less than a barley corn in size. R. Papa said: By God! he cannot produce even something as large as a camel; but these [larger than a barley corn] he can [magically] collect [and so produce the illusion that he has magically created them], the others he cannot.

              Rab said to R. Hiyya: `I myself saw an Arabian traveller take a sword and cut up a camel; then he rang a bell, at which the camel arose.' He replied, `After that, was there any blood or dung? But that was merely an illusion.'

              Ze'iri happened to go to Alexandria in Egypt and bought an ass. When he was about to water it, it dissolved, and there stood before him a landing board.22 The vendors then said to him; `Were you not Ze'iri, we would net return you [your money]: does anyone buy anything here without first testing it by water?'23

              Jannai24 came to an inn. He said to them, `Give me a drink of water,' and they offered him shattitha.25 Seeing the lips of the woman [who brought him this] moving,26 he [covertly] spilled a little thereof, which turned to snakes. Then he said, `As I have drunk of yours, now do you come and drink of mine.' So he gave her to drink, and she was turned into an ass he then rode upon her into the market. But her friend came and broke the charm [changing her back into a human being], and so he was seen riding upon a woman in public.

              And the frog came up, and covered the land of Egypt.27 R. Eleazar said: It was one frog, which bred prolifically and filled the land. This is a matter disputed by Tannaim. R. Akiba said: There was one frog which filled the whole of Egypt [by breeding]. But R. Eleazar b. Azariah said to him, `Akiba, What hast thou to do with Haggadah?28 Cease thy words and devote thyself to `Leprosies' and `Tents.'29 One frog croaked for the others, and they came'.

              R. AKIBA SAID, etc. [b.San. 68a]

              But did R. Akiba learn this from R. Joshua? Surely it has been taught: When R. Eliezer fell sick, R. Akiba and his companions went to visit him. He was seated in his canopied four-poster, whilst they sat in his salon.1 That day was Sabbath eve, and his son Hyrcanus went in to him to remove his phylacteries.2 But his father rebuked him, and he retreated crestfallen. `It seems to me,' said he to them, `that my father's mind is deranged'.3 But R. Akiba said to them, `his mind is clear, but his mother's [sc. of Hyrcanus] is deranged:4 how can one neglect a prohibition which is punished by death, and turn his attention to something which is merely forbidden as a shebuth?'5 The Sages, seeing that his mind was clear, entered his chamber and sat down at a distance of four cubits.6 `Why have ye come?' said he to them. `To study the Torah', they replied; `And why did ye not come before now', he asked? They answered, `We had no time'. He then said, `I will be surprised if these die a natural death'. R. Akiba asked him, `And what will my death be?' and he answered, `Yours will be more cruel than theirs'. He then put his two arms over his heart, and bewailed them, saying, `Woe to you, two arms of mine, that have been like two Scrolls of the Law that are wrapped up.7 Much Torah have I studied, and much have I taught.8 Much Torah have I learnt, yet have I but skimmed from the knowledge of my teachers as much as a dog lapping from the sea. Much Torah have I taught, yet my disciples have only drawn from me as much as a painting stick from its tube. Moreover, I have studied three hundred laws on the subject of a deep bright spot,9 yet no man has ever asked me about them. Moreover, I have studied three hundred, (or, as others state, three thousand laws) about the planting of cucumbers [by magic] and no man, excepting Akiba b. Joseph, ever questioned me thereon. For it once happened that he and I were walking together on a road, when he said to me, "My master, teach me about the planting of cucumbers". I made one statement, and the whole field [about us] was filled with cucumbers. Then he said, "Master, you have taught me how to plant them, now teach me how to pluck them up". I said something and all the cucumbers gathered in one place'. His visitors then asked him, `What is the law of a ball, a shoemaker's last , an amulet, a leather bag containing pearls, and a small weight?'10 He replied, `They can become unclean, and if unclean, they are restored to their uncleanliness just as they are.'11 Then they asked him, `What of a shoe that is on the last?'12 He replied, `It is clean;' and in pronouncing this word his soul departed. Then R. Joshua arose and exclaimed, `The vow is annulled, the vow is annulled!'13 On the conclusion of the Sabbath R. Akiba met his bier being carried from Caesarea to Lydda. [In his grief] he beat his flesh until the blood flowed down upon the earth — Then R. Akiba commenced his funeral address, the mourners being lined up about the coffin, and said: `My father, my father, the chariot of Israel and the horsemen thereof;14 I have many coins, but no money changer to accept them.'15 Thus from this story we see that he learned this [sc. the producing of cucumbers by magic] from R. Eliezer? — He learned it from R. Eliezer, but did not grasp it, then he learned it from R. Joshua, who made it clear to him.

              But how might R. Eliezer do so?16 Did we not learn, IF HE ACTUALly PERFORMS MAGIC, HE IS LIABLE? — If it is only to teach, it is different. For it has been said, Thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of these nations:17 thou mayest not learn in order to practise, but thou mayest learn in order to understand.18
              (b. Sanhedrin 67a-68a to m.Sanhedrin 7)


            • beast
              Excuse my naive criticism of your extremely detailed post, Yakov, but should we not be dealing with the original hebrew/aramaic here? I was told the actual
              Message 6 of 20 , Mar 10, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                Excuse my naive criticism of your extremely detailed post, Yakov, but should we not be dealing with the original hebrew/aramaic here? I was told the actual quote was Thou shalt not suffer a poisoner to live, IE a hired assasin, not witch. King James translators have been known to misquote passages to make it easier to follow the train of thought.
                If one goes into such detail, we should at least know the speaker's actual meaning in the original language, otherwise we're wastin time on "probabilities."
                My 2 cents

                --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, tlg <taliesin.lothlorien.gaia@...> wrote:
                >
                > yet again, another interesting post, thanks yakov =)
                >
                > 2010/2/19 yakov.benyakov <yakov.benyakov@...>
                >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Talmudic Discussion on Sorcery vs. Practical Kabbalah
                > >
                > > MISHNAH. A MADDIAH IS ONE WHO SAYS, `LET US GO AND SERVE IDOLS'. A
                > > SORCERER, IF HE ACTUALLY PERFORMS MAGIC, IS LIABLE [TO DEATH]. BUT NOT IF HE
                > > MERELY CREATES ILLUSIONS.13 R. AKIBA SAID IN R. JOSHUA'S NAME: OF TWO WHO
                > > GATHER CUCUMBERS [BY MAGIC] ONE MAY BE PUNISHED AND THE OTHER EXEMPT: HE WHO
                > > REALLY GATHERS THEM IS PUNISHED: WHILST HE WHO PRODUCES AN ILLUSION IS
                > > EXEMPT.
                > >
                > > GEMARA. Rab Judah said in Rab's name: This Mishnah teaches of those who
                > > lead astray a seduced city.14
                > >
                > > A SORCERER, IF HE ACTUALLY PERFORMS MAGIC etc. Our Rabbis taught: [Thou
                > > shalt not suffer] a witch [to live]:15 this applies to both man and woman.
                > > If so, why is a [female] witch stated? â€" Because mostly women engage in
                > > witchcraft. How are they executed? â€" R. Jose the Galilean said: Here it is
                > > written, Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live; whilst elsewhere is written,
                > > Thou shalt not suffer anything that breatheth to live.16 Just as there, the
                > > sword is meant, so here is the sword meant too. R. Akiba said: It is here
                > > stated, Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live; whilst elsewhere it is said,
                > > [There shall not a hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot
                > > through;] whether it be beast or man, it shall not live.17 Just as there,
                > > death by stoning is meant, so here too. R. Jose said to him, I have drawn an
                > > analogy between `Thou shalt not suffer to live' written in two verses,
                > > whilst you have made a comparison between `Thou shalt not suffer to live',
                > > and `It shall not live'. R. Akiba replied: I have drawn an analogy between
                > > two verses referring to Israelites, for whom the Writ hath decreed many
                > > modes of execution,18 whilst you have compared Israelites to heathens, in
                > > whose case only [b.San. 67b] one death penalty is decreed.1 Ben `Azzai
                > > said:2 It is here written, Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live, whilst
                > > [immediately after] it is said, Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be
                > > put to death.3 Now, this is placed in proximity, teaching that just as the
                > > latter is stoned, so is the former. Thereupon R. Judah said to him: Shall
                > > we, because of this proximity, exclude the former [from the easier death
                > > implied by an unspecified death sentence] changing it to stoning?4 But
                > > [reason this:] The ob and yidde'oni were included among other sorcerers.5
                > > Why were they singled out?6 That other sorcerers may be assimilated to them,
                > > and to teach thee, just as the ob and yidde'oni are stoned, so are all other
                > > sorcerers stoned. But even according to R. Judah, are not ob and yidde'oni
                > > two statements teaching the same thing, and two statements teaching the same
                > > thing cannot throw light upon anything else?7 â€" R. Zechariah answered: For
                > > this very reason R. Judah is generally said to maintain that even two
                > > statements singled out for the same purpose illumine the proposition as a
                > > whole.8
                > >
                > > R. Johanan said: Why are they [sorcerers] called Kashshafim?9 â€" Because
                > > they lessen the power of the Divine agencies.10
                > >
                > > There is none else besides Him:11 R. Hanina said: Even by sorcery.12 A
                > > woman once attempted to take earth from under R. Hanina's feet.13 He said to
                > > her, `If you succeed in your attempts, go and practise it [sc. sorcery]: it
                > > is written, however, There is none else beside him'. But that is not so, for
                > > did not R. Johanan say: Why are they called mekashshefim?14 Because they
                > > lessen the power of the Divine agencies? â€" R. Hanina was in a different
                > > category, owing to his abundant merit.15
                > >
                > > R. Abaye b. Nagri said in the name of R. Hiyya b. Abba: Belatehem refers to
                > > magic through the agency of demons, belahatehem to sorcery [without outside
                > > help].16 And thus it is also said, And the flame [Heb. lahat] of the sword
                > > that turns of itself.17
                > >
                > > Abaye said: The sorcerer who insists on exact paraphernalia18 works through
                > > demons; he who does not works by pure enchantment.
                > >
                > > Abaye said: The laws of sorcerers are like those of the Sabbath: certain
                > > actions are punished by stoning, some are exempt from punishment, yet
                > > forbidden, whilst others are entirely permitted. Thus: if one actually
                > > performs magic, he is stoned; if he merely creates an illusion, he is
                > > exempt, yet it is forbidden; whilst what is entirely permitted? â€" Such as
                > > was performed by R. Hanina and R. Oshaia, who spent every Sabbath eve in
                > > studying the Laws of Creation, by means of which they created a third-grown
                > > calf and ate it.19
                > >
                > > R. Ashi said: I saw Karna's father20 blow his nose violently and streamers
                > > of silk issued from his nostrils.
                > >
                > > Then the magicians said unto Pharoah, This is the finger of God:21 R.
                > > Eleazar, said: This proves that a magician cannot produce a creature less
                > > than a barley corn in size. R. Papa said: By God! he cannot produce even
                > > something as large as a camel; but these [larger than a barley corn] he can
                > > [magically] collect [and so produce the illusion that he has magically
                > > created them], the others he cannot.
                > >
                > > Rab said to R. Hiyya: `I myself saw an Arabian traveller take a sword and
                > > cut up a camel; then he rang a bell, at which the camel arose.' He replied,
                > > `After that, was there any blood or dung? But that was merely an illusion.'
                > >
                > > Ze'iri happened to go to Alexandria in Egypt and bought an ass. When he was
                > > about to water it, it dissolved, and there stood before him a landing
                > > board.22 The vendors then said to him; `Were you not Ze'iri, we would net
                > > return you [your money]: does anyone buy anything here without first testing
                > > it by water?'23
                > >
                > > Jannai24 came to an inn. He said to them, `Give me a drink of water,' and
                > > they offered him shattitha.25 Seeing the lips of the woman [who brought him
                > > this] moving,26 he [covertly] spilled a little thereof, which turned to
                > > snakes. Then he said, `As I have drunk of yours, now do you come and drink
                > > of mine.' So he gave her to drink, and she was turned into an ass he then
                > > rode upon her into the market. But her friend came and broke the charm
                > > [changing her back into a human being], and so he was seen riding upon a
                > > woman in public.
                > >
                > > And the frog came up, and covered the land of Egypt.27 R. Eleazar said: It
                > > was one frog, which bred prolifically and filled the land. This is a matter
                > > disputed by Tannaim. R. Akiba said: There was one frog which filled the
                > > whole of Egypt [by breeding]. But R. Eleazar b. Azariah said to him, `Akiba,
                > > What hast thou to do with Haggadah?28 Cease thy words and devote thyself to
                > > `Leprosies' and `Tents.'29 One frog croaked for the others, and they came'.
                > >
                > > R. AKIBA SAID, etc. [b.San. 68a]
                > >
                > > But did R. Akiba learn this from R. Joshua? Surely it has been taught: When
                > > R. Eliezer fell sick, R. Akiba and his companions went to visit him. He was
                > > seated in his canopied four-poster, whilst they sat in his salon.1 That day
                > > was Sabbath eve, and his son Hyrcanus went in to him to remove his
                > > phylacteries.2 But his father rebuked him, and he retreated crestfallen. `It
                > > seems to me,' said he to them, `that my father's mind is deranged'.3 But R.
                > > Akiba said to them, `his mind is clear, but his mother's [sc. of Hyrcanus]
                > > is deranged:4 how can one neglect a prohibition which is punished by death,
                > > and turn his attention to something which is merely forbidden as a
                > > shebuth?'5 The Sages, seeing that his mind was clear, entered his chamber
                > > and sat down at a distance of four cubits.6 `Why have ye come?' said he to
                > > them. `To study the Torah', they replied; `And why did ye not come before
                > > now', he asked? They answered, `We had no time'. He then said, `I will be
                > > surprised if these die a natural death'. R. Akiba asked him, `And what will
                > > my death be?' and he answered, `Yours will be more cruel than theirs'. He
                > > then put his two arms over his heart, and bewailed them, saying, `Woe to
                > > you, two arms of mine, that have been like two Scrolls of the Law that are
                > > wrapped up.7 Much Torah have I studied, and much have I taught.8 Much Torah
                > > have I learnt, yet have I but skimmed from the knowledge of my teachers as
                > > much as a dog lapping from the sea. Much Torah have I taught, yet my
                > > disciples have only drawn from me as much as a painting stick from its tube.
                > > Moreover, I have studied three hundred laws on the subject of a deep bright
                > > spot,9 yet no man has ever asked me about them. Moreover, I have studied
                > > three hundred, (or, as others state, three thousand laws) about the planting
                > > of cucumbers [by magic] and no man, excepting Akiba b. Joseph, ever
                > > questioned me thereon. For it once happened that he and I were walking
                > > together on a road, when he said to me, "My master, teach me about the
                > > planting of cucumbers". I made one statement, and the whole field [about us]
                > > was filled with cucumbers. Then he said, "Master, you have taught me how to
                > > plant them, now teach me how to pluck them up". I said something and all the
                > > cucumbers gathered in one place'. His visitors then asked him, `What is the
                > > law of a ball, a shoemaker's last , an amulet, a leather bag containing
                > > pearls, and a small weight?'10 He replied, `They can become unclean, and if
                > > unclean, they are restored to their uncleanliness just as they are.'11 Then
                > > they asked him, `What of a shoe that is on the last?'12 He replied, `It is
                > > clean;' and in pronouncing this word his soul departed. Then R. Joshua arose
                > > and exclaimed, `The vow is annulled, the vow is annulled!'13 On the
                > > conclusion of the Sabbath R. Akiba met his bier being carried from Caesarea
                > > to Lydda. [In his grief] he beat his flesh until the blood flowed down upon
                > > the earth â€" Then R. Akiba commenced his funeral address, the mourners being
                > > lined up about the coffin, and said: `My father, my father, the chariot of
                > > Israel and the horsemen thereof;14 I have many coins, but no money changer
                > > to accept them.'15 Thus from this story we see that he learned this [sc. the
                > > producing of cucumbers by magic] from R. Eliezer? â€" He learned it from R.
                > > Eliezer, but did not grasp it, then he learned it from R. Joshua, who made
                > > it clear to him.
                > >
                > > But how might R. Eliezer do so?16 Did we not learn, IF HE ACTUALly PERFORMS
                > > MAGIC, HE IS LIABLE? â€" If it is only to teach, it is different. For it has
                > > been said, Thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of these
                > > nations:17 thou mayest not learn in order to practise, but thou mayest learn
                > > in order to understand.18
                > > (b. Sanhedrin 67a-68a to m.Sanhedrin 7)
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
              • Sam McConnich
                http://www.proteuscoven.org/proteus/Suffer.htm http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_bibl2.htm ________________________________ From: beast
                Message 7 of 20 , Mar 10, 2010
                • 0 Attachment


                  From: beast <fictivedreamer@...>
                  To: abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 12:21:11 PM
                  Subject: [abramelin] Re: The Torah and Abramelin Operation

                   

                  Excuse my naive criticism of your extremely detailed post, Yakov, but should we not be dealing with the original hebrew/aramaic here? I was told the actual quote was Thou shalt not suffer a poisoner to live, IE a hired assasin, not witch. King James translators have been known to misquote passages to make it easier to follow the train of thought.
                  If one goes into such detail, we should at least know the speaker's actual meaning in the original language, otherwise we're wastin time on "probabilities. "
                  My 2 cents

                  --- In abramelin@yahoogrou ps.com, tlg <taliesin.lothlorie n.gaia@.. .> wrote:
                  >
                  > yet again, another interesting post, thanks yakov =)
                  >
                  > 2010/2/19 yakov.benyakov <yakov.benyakov@ ...>
                  >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Talmudic Discussion on Sorcery vs. Practical Kabbalah
                  > >
                  > > MISHNAH. A MADDIAH IS ONE WHO SAYS, `LET US GO AND SERVE IDOLS'. A
                  > > SORCERER, IF HE ACTUALLY PERFORMS MAGIC, IS LIABLE [TO DEATH]. BUT NOT IF HE
                  > > MERELY CREATES ILLUSIONS.13 R. AKIBA SAID IN R. JOSHUA'S NAME: OF TWO WHO
                  > > GATHER CUCUMBERS [BY MAGIC] ONE MAY BE PUNISHED AND THE OTHER EXEMPT: HE WHO
                  > > REALLY GATHERS THEM IS PUNISHED: WHILST HE WHO PRODUCES AN ILLUSION IS
                  > > EXEMPT.
                  > >
                  > > GEMARA. Rab Judah said in Rab's name: This Mishnah teaches of those who
                  > > lead astray a seduced city.14
                  > >
                  > > A SORCERER, IF HE ACTUALLY PERFORMS MAGIC etc. Our Rabbis taught: [Thou
                  > > shalt not suffer] a witch [to live]:15 this applies to both man and woman.
                  > > If so, why is a [female] witch stated? â€" Because mostly women engage in
                  > > witchcraft. How are they executed? â€" R. Jose the Galilean said: Here it is
                  > > written, Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live; whilst elsewhere is written,
                  > > Thou shalt not suffer anything that breatheth to live.16 Just as there, the
                  > > sword is meant, so here is the sword meant too. R. Akiba said: It is here
                  > > stated, Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live; whilst elsewhere it is said,
                  > > [There shall not a hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot
                  > > through;] whether it be beast or man, it shall not live.17 Just as there,
                  > > death by stoning is meant, so here too. R. Jose said to him, I have drawn an
                  > > analogy between `Thou shalt not suffer to live' written in two verses,
                  > > whilst you have made a comparison between `Thou shalt not suffer to live',
                  > > and `It shall not live'. R. Akiba replied: I have drawn an analogy between
                  > > two verses referring to Israelites, for whom the Writ hath decreed many
                  > > modes of execution,18 whilst you have compared Israelites to heathens, in
                  > > whose case only [b.San. 67b] one death penalty is decreed.1 Ben `Azzai
                  > > said:2 It is here written, Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live, whilst
                  > > [immediately after] it is said, Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be
                  > > put to death.3 Now, this is placed in proximity, teaching that just as the
                  > > latter is stoned, so is the former. Thereupon R. Judah said to him: Shall
                  > > we, because of this proximity, exclude the former [from the easier death
                  > > implied by an unspecified death sentence] changing it to stoning?4 But
                  > > [reason this:] The ob and yidde'oni were included among other sorcerers.5
                  > > Why were they singled out?6 That other sorcerers may be assimilated to them,
                  > > and to teach thee, just as the ob and yidde'oni are stoned, so are all other
                  > > sorcerers stoned. But even according to R. Judah, are not ob and yidde'oni
                  > > two statements teaching the same thing, and two statements teaching the same
                  > > thing cannot throw light upon anything else?7 â€" R. Zechariah answered: For
                  > > this very reason R. Judah is generally said to maintain that even two
                  > > statements singled out for the same purpose illumine the proposition as a
                  > > whole.8
                  > >
                  > > R. Johanan said: Why are they [sorcerers] called Kashshafim?9 â€" Because
                  > > they lessen the power of the Divine agencies.10
                  > >
                  > > There is none else besides Him:11 R. Hanina said: Even by sorcery.12 A
                  > > woman once attempted to take earth from under R. Hanina's feet.13 He said to
                  > > her, `If you succeed in your attempts, go and practise it [sc. sorcery]: it
                  > > is written, however, There is none else beside him'. But that is not so, for
                  > > did not R. Johanan say: Why are they called mekashshefim? 14 Because they
                  > > lessen the power of the Divine agencies? â€" R. Hanina was in a different
                  > > category, owing to his abundant merit.15
                  > >
                  > > R. Abaye b. Nagri said in the name of R. Hiyya b. Abba: Belatehem refers to
                  > > magic through the agency of demons, belahatehem to sorcery [without outside
                  > > help].16 And thus it is also said, And the flame [Heb. lahat] of the sword
                  > > that turns of itself.17
                  > >
                  > > Abaye said: The sorcerer who insists on exact paraphernalia18 works through
                  > > demons; he who does not works by pure enchantment.
                  > >
                  > > Abaye said: The laws of sorcerers are like those of the Sabbath: certain
                  > > actions are punished by stoning, some are exempt from punishment, yet
                  > > forbidden, whilst others are entirely permitted. Thus: if one actually
                  > > performs magic, he is stoned; if he merely creates an illusion, he is
                  > > exempt, yet it is forbidden; whilst what is entirely permitted? â€" Such as
                  > > was performed by R. Hanina and R. Oshaia, who spent every Sabbath eve in
                  > > studying the Laws of Creation, by means of which they created a third-grown
                  > > calf and ate it.19
                  > >
                  > > R. Ashi said: I saw Karna's father20 blow his nose violently and streamers
                  > > of silk issued from his nostrils.
                  > >
                  > > Then the magicians said unto Pharoah, This is the finger of God:21 R.
                  > > Eleazar, said: This proves that a magician cannot produce a creature less
                  > > than a barley corn in size. R. Papa said: By God! he cannot produce even
                  > > something as large as a camel; but these [larger than a barley corn] he can
                  > > [magically] collect [and so produce the illusion that he has magically
                  > > created them], the others he cannot.
                  > >
                  > > Rab said to R. Hiyya: `I myself saw an Arabian traveller take a sword and
                  > > cut up a camel; then he rang a bell, at which the camel arose.' He replied,
                  > > `After that, was there any blood or dung? But that was merely an illusion.'
                  > >
                  > > Ze'iri happened to go to Alexandria in Egypt and bought an ass. When he was
                  > > about to water it, it dissolved, and there stood before him a landing
                  > > board.22 The vendors then said to him; `Were you not Ze'iri, we would net
                  > > return you [your money]: does anyone buy anything here without first testing
                  > > it by water?'23
                  > >
                  > > Jannai24 came to an inn. He said to them, `Give me a drink of water,' and
                  > > they offered him shattitha.25 Seeing the lips of the woman [who brought him
                  > > this] moving,26 he [covertly] spilled a little thereof, which turned to
                  > > snakes. Then he said, `As I have drunk of yours, now do you come and drink
                  > > of mine.' So he gave her to drink, and she was turned into an ass he then
                  > > rode upon her into the market. But her friend came and broke the charm
                  > > [changing her back into a human being], and so he was seen riding upon a
                  > > woman in public.
                  > >
                  > > And the frog came up, and covered the land of Egypt.27 R. Eleazar said: It
                  > > was one frog, which bred prolifically and filled the land. This is a matter
                  > > disputed by Tannaim. R. Akiba said: There was one frog which filled the
                  > > whole of Egypt [by breeding]. But R. Eleazar b. Azariah said to him, `Akiba,
                  > > What hast thou to do with Haggadah?28 Cease thy words and devote thyself to
                  > > `Leprosies' and `Tents.'29 One frog croaked for the others, and they came'.
                  > >
                  > > R. AKIBA SAID, etc. [b.San. 68a]
                  > >
                  > > But did R. Akiba learn this from R. Joshua? Surely it has been taught: When
                  > > R. Eliezer fell sick, R. Akiba and his companions went to visit him. He was
                  > > seated in his canopied four-poster, whilst they sat in his salon.1 That day
                  > > was Sabbath eve, and his son Hyrcanus went in to him to remove his
                  > > phylacteries. 2 But his father rebuked him, and he retreated crestfallen. `It
                  > > seems to me,' said he to them, `that my father's mind is deranged'.3 But R.
                  > > Akiba said to them, `his mind is clear, but his mother's [sc. of Hyrcanus]
                  > > is deranged:4 how can one neglect a prohibition which is punished by death,
                  > > and turn his attention to something which is merely forbidden as a
                  > > shebuth?'5 The Sages, seeing that his mind was clear, entered his chamber
                  > > and sat down at a distance of four cubits.6 `Why have ye come?' said he to
                  > > them. `To study the Torah', they replied; `And why did ye not come before
                  > > now', he asked? They answered, `We had no time'. He then said, `I will be
                  > > surprised if these die a natural death'. R. Akiba asked him, `And what will
                  > > my death be?' and he answered, `Yours will be more cruel than theirs'. He
                  > > then put his two arms over his heart, and bewailed them, saying, `Woe to
                  > > you, two arms of mine, that have been like two Scrolls of the Law that are
                  > > wrapped up.7 Much Torah have I studied, and much have I taught.8 Much Torah
                  > > have I learnt, yet have I but skimmed from the knowledge of my teachers as
                  > > much as a dog lapping from the sea. Much Torah have I taught, yet my
                  > > disciples have only drawn from me as much as a painting stick from its tube.
                  > > Moreover, I have studied three hundred laws on the subject of a deep bright
                  > > spot,9 yet no man has ever asked me about them. Moreover, I have studied
                  > > three hundred, (or, as others state, three thousand laws) about the planting
                  > > of cucumbers [by magic] and no man, excepting Akiba b. Joseph, ever
                  > > questioned me thereon. For it once happened that he and I were walking
                  > > together on a road, when he said to me, "My master, teach me about the
                  > > planting of cucumbers". I made one statement, and the whole field [about us]
                  > > was filled with cucumbers. Then he said, "Master, you have taught me how to
                  > > plant them, now teach me how to pluck them up". I said something and all the
                  > > cucumbers gathered in one place'. His visitors then asked him, `What is the
                  > > law of a ball, a shoemaker's last , an amulet, a leather bag containing
                  > > pearls, and a small weight?'10 He replied, `They can become unclean, and if
                  > > unclean, they are restored to their uncleanliness just as they are.'11 Then
                  > > they asked him, `What of a shoe that is on the last?'12 He replied, `It is
                  > > clean;' and in pronouncing this word his soul departed. Then R. Joshua arose
                  > > and exclaimed, `The vow is annulled, the vow is annulled!'13 On the
                  > > conclusion of the Sabbath R. Akiba met his bier being carried from Caesarea
                  > > to Lydda. [In his grief] he beat his flesh until the blood flowed down upon
                  > > the earth â€" Then R. Akiba commenced his funeral address, the mourners being
                  > > lined up about the coffin, and said: `My father, my father, the chariot of
                  > > Israel and the horsemen thereof;14 I have many coins, but no money changer
                  > > to accept them.'15 Thus from this story we see that he learned this [sc. the
                  > > producing of cucumbers by magic] from R. Eliezer? â€" He learned it from R.
                  > > Eliezer, but did not grasp it, then he learned it from R. Joshua, who made
                  > > it clear to him.
                  > >
                  > > But how might R. Eliezer do so?16 Did we not learn, IF HE ACTUALly PERFORMS
                  > > MAGIC, HE IS LIABLE? â€" If it is only to teach, it is different. For it has
                  > > been said, Thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of these
                  > > nations:17 thou mayest not learn in order to practise, but thou mayest learn
                  > > in order to understand.18
                  > > (b. Sanhedrin 67a-68a to m.Sanhedrin 7)
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >


                • tlg
                  nice links, thanks =) 2010/3/11 Sam McConnich ... nice links, thanks =) 2010/3/11 Sam McConnich  
                  Message 8 of 20 , Mar 11, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment
                    nice links, thanks =)

                    2010/3/11 Sam McConnich <rpgstarwizard@...>
                     



                    From: beast <fictivedreamer@...>
                    To: abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 12:21:11 PM
                    Subject: [abramelin] Re: The Torah and Abramelin Operation

                     

                    Excuse my naive criticism of your extremely detailed post, Yakov, but should we not be dealing with the original hebrew/aramaic here? I was told the actual quote was Thou shalt not suffer a poisoner to live, IE a hired assasin, not witch. King James translators have been known to misquote passages to make it easier to follow the train of thought.
                    If one goes into such detail, we should at least know the speaker's actual meaning in the original language, otherwise we're wastin time on "probabilities. "
                    My 2 cents

                    --- In abramelin@yahoogrou ps.com, tlg <taliesin.lothlorie n.gaia@.. .> wrote:
                    >
                    > yet again, another interesting post, thanks yakov =)
                    >
                    > 2010/2/19 yakov.benyakov <yakov.benyakov@ ...>
                    >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Talmudic Discussion on Sorcery vs. Practical Kabbalah
                    > >
                    > > MISHNAH. A MADDIAH IS ONE WHO SAYS, `LET US GO AND SERVE IDOLS'. A
                    > > SORCERER, IF HE ACTUALLY PERFORMS MAGIC, IS LIABLE [TO DEATH]. BUT NOT IF HE
                    > > MERELY CREATES ILLUSIONS.13 R. AKIBA SAID IN R. JOSHUA'S NAME: OF TWO WHO
                    > > GATHER CUCUMBERS [BY MAGIC] ONE MAY BE PUNISHED AND THE OTHER EXEMPT: HE WHO
                    > > REALLY GATHERS THEM IS PUNISHED: WHILST HE WHO PRODUCES AN ILLUSION IS
                    > > EXEMPT.
                    > >
                    > > GEMARA. Rab Judah said in Rab's name: This Mishnah teaches of those who
                    > > lead astray a seduced city.14
                    > >
                    > > A SORCERER, IF HE ACTUALLY PERFORMS MAGIC etc. Our Rabbis taught: [Thou
                    > > shalt not suffer] a witch [to live]:15 this applies to both man and woman.
                    > > If so, why is a [female] witch stated? â€" Because mostly women engage in
                    > > witchcraft. How are they executed? â€" R. Jose the Galilean said: Here it is
                    > > written, Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live; whilst elsewhere is written,
                    > > Thou shalt not suffer anything that breatheth to live.16 Just as there, the
                    > > sword is meant, so here is the sword meant too. R. Akiba said: It is here
                    > > stated, Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live; whilst elsewhere it is said,
                    > > [There shall not a hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot
                    > > through;] whether it be beast or man, it shall not live.17 Just as there,
                    > > death by stoning is meant, so here too. R. Jose said to him, I have drawn an
                    > > analogy between `Thou shalt not suffer to live' written in two verses,
                    > > whilst you have made a comparison between `Thou shalt not suffer to live',
                    > > and `It shall not live'. R. Akiba replied: I have drawn an analogy between
                    > > two verses referring to Israelites, for whom the Writ hath decreed many
                    > > modes of execution,18 whilst you have compared Israelites to heathens, in
                    > > whose case only [b.San. 67b] one death penalty is decreed.1 Ben `Azzai
                    > > said:2 It is here written, Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live, whilst
                    > > [immediately after] it is said, Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be
                    > > put to death.3 Now, this is placed in proximity, teaching that just as the
                    > > latter is stoned, so is the former. Thereupon R. Judah said to him: Shall
                    > > we, because of this proximity, exclude the former [from the easier death
                    > > implied by an unspecified death sentence] changing it to stoning?4 But
                    > > [reason this:] The ob and yidde'oni were included among other sorcerers.5
                    > > Why were they singled out?6 That other sorcerers may be assimilated to them,
                    > > and to teach thee, just as the ob and yidde'oni are stoned, so are all other
                    > > sorcerers stoned. But even according to R. Judah, are not ob and yidde'oni
                    > > two statements teaching the same thing, and two statements teaching the same
                    > > thing cannot throw light upon anything else?7 â€" R. Zechariah answered: For
                    > > this very reason R. Judah is generally said to maintain that even two
                    > > statements singled out for the same purpose illumine the proposition as a
                    > > whole.8
                    > >
                    > > R. Johanan said: Why are they [sorcerers] called Kashshafim?9 â€" Because
                    > > they lessen the power of the Divine agencies.10
                    > >
                    > > There is none else besides Him:11 R. Hanina said: Even by sorcery.12 A
                    > > woman once attempted to take earth from under R. Hanina's feet.13 He said to
                    > > her, `If you succeed in your attempts, go and practise it [sc. sorcery]: it
                    > > is written, however, There is none else beside him'. But that is not so, for
                    > > did not R. Johanan say: Why are they called mekashshefim? 14 Because they
                    > > lessen the power of the Divine agencies? â€" R. Hanina was in a different
                    > > category, owing to his abundant merit.15
                    > >
                    > > R. Abaye b. Nagri said in the name of R. Hiyya b. Abba: Belatehem refers to
                    > > magic through the agency of demons, belahatehem to sorcery [without outside
                    > > help].16 And thus it is also said, And the flame [Heb. lahat] of the sword
                    > > that turns of itself.17
                    > >
                    > > Abaye said: The sorcerer who insists on exact paraphernalia18 works through
                    > > demons; he who does not works by pure enchantment.
                    > >
                    > > Abaye said: The laws of sorcerers are like those of the Sabbath: certain
                    > > actions are punished by stoning, some are exempt from punishment, yet
                    > > forbidden, whilst others are entirely permitted. Thus: if one actually
                    > > performs magic, he is stoned; if he merely creates an illusion, he is
                    > > exempt, yet it is forbidden; whilst what is entirely permitted? â€" Such as
                    > > was performed by R. Hanina and R. Oshaia, who spent every Sabbath eve in
                    > > studying the Laws of Creation, by means of which they created a third-grown
                    > > calf and ate it.19
                    > >
                    > > R. Ashi said: I saw Karna's father20 blow his nose violently and streamers
                    > > of silk issued from his nostrils.
                    > >
                    > > Then the magicians said unto Pharoah, This is the finger of God:21 R.
                    > > Eleazar, said: This proves that a magician cannot produce a creature less
                    > > than a barley corn in size. R. Papa said: By God! he cannot produce even
                    > > something as large as a camel; but these [larger than a barley corn] he can
                    > > [magically] collect [and so produce the illusion that he has magically
                    > > created them], the others he cannot.
                    > >
                    > > Rab said to R. Hiyya: `I myself saw an Arabian traveller take a sword and
                    > > cut up a camel; then he rang a bell, at which the camel arose.' He replied,
                    > > `After that, was there any blood or dung? But that was merely an illusion.'
                    > >
                    > > Ze'iri happened to go to Alexandria in Egypt and bought an ass. When he was
                    > > about to water it, it dissolved, and there stood before him a landing
                    > > board.22 The vendors then said to him; `Were you not Ze'iri, we would net
                    > > return you [your money]: does anyone buy anything here without first testing
                    > > it by water?'23
                    > >
                    > > Jannai24 came to an inn. He said to them, `Give me a drink of water,' and
                    > > they offered him shattitha.25 Seeing the lips of the woman [who brought him
                    > > this] moving,26 he [covertly] spilled a little thereof, which turned to
                    > > snakes. Then he said, `As I have drunk of yours, now do you come and drink
                    > > of mine.' So he gave her to drink, and she was turned into an ass he then
                    > > rode upon her into the market. But her friend came and broke the charm
                    > > [changing her back into a human being], and so he was seen riding upon a
                    > > woman in public.
                    > >
                    > > And the frog came up, and covered the land of Egypt.27 R. Eleazar said: It
                    > > was one frog, which bred prolifically and filled the land. This is a matter
                    > > disputed by Tannaim. R. Akiba said: There was one frog which filled the
                    > > whole of Egypt [by breeding]. But R. Eleazar b. Azariah said to him, `Akiba,
                    > > What hast thou to do with Haggadah?28 Cease thy words and devote thyself to
                    > > `Leprosies' and `Tents.'29 One frog croaked for the others, and they came'.
                    > >
                    > > R. AKIBA SAID, etc. [b.San. 68a]
                    > >
                    > > But did R. Akiba learn this from R. Joshua? Surely it has been taught: When
                    > > R. Eliezer fell sick, R. Akiba and his companions went to visit him. He was
                    > > seated in his canopied four-poster, whilst they sat in his salon.1 That day
                    > > was Sabbath eve, and his son Hyrcanus went in to him to remove his
                    > > phylacteries. 2 But his father rebuked him, and he retreated crestfallen. `It
                    > > seems to me,' said he to them, `that my father's mind is deranged'.3 But R.
                    > > Akiba said to them, `his mind is clear, but his mother's [sc. of Hyrcanus]
                    > > is deranged:4 how can one neglect a prohibition which is punished by death,
                    > > and turn his attention to something which is merely forbidden as a
                    > > shebuth?'5 The Sages, seeing that his mind was clear, entered his chamber
                    > > and sat down at a distance of four cubits.6 `Why have ye come?' said he to
                    > > them. `To study the Torah', they replied; `And why did ye not come before
                    > > now', he asked? They answered, `We had no time'. He then said, `I will be
                    > > surprised if these die a natural death'. R. Akiba asked him, `And what will
                    > > my death be?' and he answered, `Yours will be more cruel than theirs'. He
                    > > then put his two arms over his heart, and bewailed them, saying, `Woe to
                    > > you, two arms of mine, that have been like two Scrolls of the Law that are
                    > > wrapped up.7 Much Torah have I studied, and much have I taught.8 Much Torah
                    > > have I learnt, yet have I but skimmed from the knowledge of my teachers as
                    > > much as a dog lapping from the sea. Much Torah have I taught, yet my
                    > > disciples have only drawn from me as much as a painting stick from its tube.
                    > > Moreover, I have studied three hundred laws on the subject of a deep bright
                    > > spot,9 yet no man has ever asked me about them. Moreover, I have studied
                    > > three hundred, (or, as others state, three thousand laws) about the planting
                    > > of cucumbers [by magic] and no man, excepting Akiba b. Joseph, ever
                    > > questioned me thereon. For it once happened that he and I were walking
                    > > together on a road, when he said to me, "My master, teach me about the
                    > > planting of cucumbers". I made one statement, and the whole field [about us]
                    > > was filled with cucumbers. Then he said, "Master, you have taught me how to
                    > > plant them, now teach me how to pluck them up". I said something and all the
                    > > cucumbers gathered in one place'. His visitors then asked him, `What is the
                    > > law of a ball, a shoemaker's last , an amulet, a leather bag containing
                    > > pearls, and a small weight?'10 He replied, `They can become unclean, and if
                    > > unclean, they are restored to their uncleanliness just as they are.'11 Then
                    > > they asked him, `What of a shoe that is on the last?'12 He replied, `It is
                    > > clean;' and in pronouncing this word his soul departed. Then R. Joshua arose
                    > > and exclaimed, `The vow is annulled, the vow is annulled!'13 On the
                    > > conclusion of the Sabbath R. Akiba met his bier being carried from Caesarea
                    > > to Lydda. [In his grief] he beat his flesh until the blood flowed down upon
                    > > the earth â€" Then R. Akiba commenced his funeral address, the mourners being
                    > > lined up about the coffin, and said: `My father, my father, the chariot of
                    > > Israel and the horsemen thereof;14 I have many coins, but no money changer
                    > > to accept them.'15 Thus from this story we see that he learned this [sc. the
                    > > producing of cucumbers by magic] from R. Eliezer? â€" He learned it from R.
                    > > Eliezer, but did not grasp it, then he learned it from R. Joshua, who made
                    > > it clear to him.
                    > >
                    > > But how might R. Eliezer do so?16 Did we not learn, IF HE ACTUALly PERFORMS
                    > > MAGIC, HE IS LIABLE? â€" If it is only to teach, it is different. For it has
                    > > been said, Thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of these
                    > > nations:17 thou mayest not learn in order to practise, but thou mayest learn
                    > > in order to understand.18
                    > > (b. Sanhedrin 67a-68a to m.Sanhedrin 7)
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >



                  • beast
                    I can see where someone who cuts off life can be associated with a poisoner or one who changes the environment as a sorcerer/witch. Thanks for the link.
                    Message 9 of 20 , Mar 11, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I can see where someone who "cuts off life" can be associated with a 'poisoner' or one who changes the environment as a sorcerer/witch.
                      Thanks for the link. Language is confusing in any language...
                      Beast

                      --- In abramelin@yahoogroups.com, Sam McConnich <rpgstarwizard@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > http://www.proteuscoven.org/proteus/Suffer.htm
                      >
                      > http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_bibl2.htm
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ________________________________
                      > From: beast <fictivedreamer@...>
                      > To: abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 12:21:11 PM
                      > Subject: [abramelin] Re: The Torah and Abramelin Operation
                      >
                      >  
                      > Excuse my naive criticism of your extremely detailed post, Yakov, but should we not be dealing with the original hebrew/aramaic here? I was told the actual quote was Thou shalt not suffer a poisoner to live, IE a hired assasin, not witch. King James translators have been known to misquote passages to make it easier to follow the train of thought.
                      > If one goes into such detail, we should at least know the speaker's actual meaning in the original language, otherwise we're wastin time on "probabilities. "
                      > My 2 cents
                      >
                      > --- In abramelin@yahoogrou ps.com, tlg <taliesin.lothlorie n.gaia@ .> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > yet again, another interesting post, thanks yakov =)
                      > >
                      > > 2010/2/19 yakov.benyakov <yakov.benyakov@ ...>
                      > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Talmudic Discussion on Sorcery vs. Practical Kabbalah
                      > > >
                      > > > MISHNAH. A MADDIAH IS ONE WHO SAYS, `LET US GO AND SERVE IDOLS'. A
                      > > > SORCERER, IF HE ACTUALLY PERFORMS MAGIC, IS LIABLE [TO DEATH]. BUT NOT IF HE
                      > > > MERELY CREATES ILLUSIONS.13 R. AKIBA SAID IN R. JOSHUA'S NAME: OF TWO WHO
                      > > > GATHER CUCUMBERS [BY MAGIC] ONE MAY BE PUNISHED AND THE OTHER EXEMPT: HE WHO
                      > > > REALLY GATHERS THEM IS PUNISHED: WHILST HE WHO PRODUCES AN ILLUSION IS
                      > > > EXEMPT.
                      > > >
                      > > > GEMARA. Rab Judah said in Rab's name: This Mishnah teaches of those who
                      > > > lead astray a seduced city.14
                      > > >
                      > > > A SORCERER, IF HE ACTUALLY PERFORMS MAGIC etc. Our Rabbis taught: [Thou
                      > > > shalt not suffer] a witch [to live]:15 this applies to both man and woman.
                      > > > If so, why is a [female] witch stated? â€" Because mostly women engage in
                      > > > witchcraft. How are they executed? â€" R. Jose the Galilean said: Here it is
                      > > > written, Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live; whilst elsewhere is written,
                      > > > Thou shalt not suffer anything that breatheth to live.16 Just as there, the
                      > > > sword is meant, so here is the sword meant too. R. Akiba said: It is here
                      > > > stated, Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live; whilst elsewhere it is said,
                      > > > [There shall not a hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot
                      > > > through;] whether it be beast or man, it shall not live.17 Just as there,
                      > > > death by stoning is meant, so here too. R. Jose said to him, I have drawn an
                      > > > analogy between `Thou shalt not suffer to live' written in two verses,
                      > > > whilst you have made a comparison between `Thou shalt not suffer to live',
                      > > > and `It shall not live'. R. Akiba replied: I have drawn an analogy between
                      > > > two verses referring to Israelites, for whom the Writ hath decreed many
                      > > > modes of execution,18 whilst you have compared Israelites to heathens, in
                      > > > whose case only [b.San. 67b] one death penalty is decreed.1 Ben `Azzai
                      > > > said:2 It is here written, Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live, whilst
                      > > > [immediately after] it is said, Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be
                      > > > put to death.3 Now, this is placed in proximity, teaching that just as the
                      > > > latter is stoned, so is the former. Thereupon R. Judah said to him: Shall
                      > > > we, because of this proximity, exclude the former [from the easier death
                      > > > implied by an unspecified death sentence] changing it to stoning?4 But
                      > > > [reason this:] The ob and yidde'oni were included among other sorcerers.5
                      > > > Why were they singled out?6 That other sorcerers may be assimilated to them,
                      > > > and to teach thee, just as the ob and yidde'oni are stoned, so are all other
                      > > > sorcerers stoned. But even according to R. Judah, are not ob and yidde'oni
                      > > > two statements teaching the same thing, and two statements teaching the same
                      > > > thing cannot throw light upon anything else?7 â€" R. Zechariah answered: For
                      > > > this very reason R. Judah is generally said to maintain that even two
                      > > > statements singled out for the same purpose illumine the proposition as a
                      > > > whole.8
                      > > >
                      > > > R. Johanan said: Why are they [sorcerers] called Kashshafim?9 â€" Because
                      > > > they lessen the power of the Divine agencies.10
                      > > >
                      > > > There is none else besides Him:11 R. Hanina said: Even by sorcery.12 A
                      > > > woman once attempted to take earth from under R. Hanina's feet.13 He said to
                      > > > her, `If you succeed in your attempts, go and practise it [sc. sorcery]: it
                      > > > is written, however, There is none else beside him'. But that is not so, for
                      > > > did not R. Johanan say: Why are they called mekashshefim? 14 Because they
                      > > > lessen the power of the Divine agencies? â€" R. Hanina was in a different
                      > > > category, owing to his abundant merit.15
                      > > >
                      > > > R. Abaye b. Nagri said in the name of R. Hiyya b. Abba: Belatehem refers to
                      > > > magic through the agency of demons, belahatehem to sorcery [without outside
                      > > > help].16 And thus it is also said, And the flame [Heb. lahat] of the sword
                      > > > that turns of itself.17
                      > > >
                      > > > Abaye said: The sorcerer who insists on exact paraphernalia18 works through
                      > > > demons; he who does not works by pure enchantment.
                      > > >
                      > > > Abaye said: The laws of sorcerers are like those of the Sabbath: certain
                      > > > actions are punished by stoning, some are exempt from punishment, yet
                      > > > forbidden, whilst others are entirely permitted. Thus: if one actually
                      > > > performs magic, he is stoned; if he merely creates an illusion, he is
                      > > > exempt, yet it is forbidden; whilst what is entirely permitted? â€" Such as
                      > > > was performed by R. Hanina and R. Oshaia, who spent every Sabbath eve in
                      > > > studying the Laws of Creation, by means of which they created a third-grown
                      > > > calf and ate it.19
                      > > >
                      > > > R. Ashi said: I saw Karna's father20 blow his nose violently and streamers
                      > > > of silk issued from his nostrils.
                      > > >
                      > > > Then the magicians said unto Pharoah, This is the finger of God:21 R.
                      > > > Eleazar, said: This proves that a magician cannot produce a creature less
                      > > > than a barley corn in size. R. Papa said: By God! he cannot produce even
                      > > > something as large as a camel; but these [larger than a barley corn] he can
                      > > > [magically] collect [and so produce the illusion that he has magically
                      > > > created them], the others he cannot.
                      > > >
                      > > > Rab said to R. Hiyya: `I myself saw an Arabian traveller take a sword and
                      > > > cut up a camel; then he rang a bell, at which the camel arose.' He replied,
                      > > > `After that, was there any blood or dung? But that was merely an illusion.'
                      > > >
                      > > > Ze'iri happened to go to Alexandria in Egypt and bought an ass. When he was
                      > > > about to water it, it dissolved, and there stood before him a landing
                      > > > board.22 The vendors then said to him; `Were you not Ze'iri, we would net
                      > > > return you [your money]: does anyone buy anything here without first testing
                      > > > it by water?'23
                      > > >
                      > > > Jannai24 came to an inn. He said to them, `Give me a drink of water,' and
                      > > > they offered him shattitha.25 Seeing the lips of the woman [who brought him
                      > > > this] moving,26 he [covertly] spilled a little thereof, which turned to
                      > > > snakes. Then he said, `As I have drunk of yours, now do you come and drink
                      > > > of mine.' So he gave her to drink, and she was turned into an ass he then
                      > > > rode upon her into the market. But her friend came and broke the charm
                      > > > [changing her back into a human being], and so he was seen riding upon a
                      > > > woman in public.
                      > > >
                      > > > And the frog came up, and covered the land of Egypt.27 R. Eleazar said: It
                      > > > was one frog, which bred prolifically and filled the land. This is a matter
                      > > > disputed by Tannaim. R. Akiba said: There was one frog which filled the
                      > > > whole of Egypt [by breeding]. But R. Eleazar b. Azariah said to him, `Akiba,
                      > > > What hast thou to do with Haggadah?28 Cease thy words and devote thyself to
                      > > > `Leprosies' and `Tents.'29 One frog croaked for the others, and they came'.
                      > > >
                      > > > R. AKIBA SAID, etc. [b.San. 68a]
                      > > >
                      > > > But did R. Akiba learn this from R. Joshua? Surely it has been taught: When
                      > > > R. Eliezer fell sick, R. Akiba and his companions went to visit him. He was
                      > > > seated in his canopied four-poster, whilst they sat in his salon.1 That day
                      > > > was Sabbath eve, and his son Hyrcanus went in to him to remove his
                      > > > phylacteries. 2 But his father rebuked him, and he retreated crestfallen. `It
                      > > > seems to me,' said he to them, `that my father's mind is deranged'.3 But R.
                      > > > Akiba said to them, `his mind is clear, but his mother's [sc. of Hyrcanus]
                      > > > is deranged:4 how can one neglect a prohibition which is punished by death,
                      > > > and turn his attention to something which is merely forbidden as a
                      > > > shebuth?'5 The Sages, seeing that his mind was clear, entered his chamber
                      > > > and sat down at a distance of four cubits.6 `Why have ye come?' said he to
                      > > > them. `To study the Torah', they replied; `And why did ye not come before
                      > > > now', he asked? They answered, `We had no time'. He then said, `I will be
                      > > > surprised if these die a natural death'. R. Akiba asked him, `And what will
                      > > > my death be?' and he answered, `Yours will be more cruel than theirs'. He
                      > > > then put his two arms over his heart, and bewailed them, saying, `Woe to
                      > > > you, two arms of mine, that have been like two Scrolls of the Law that are
                      > > > wrapped up.7 Much Torah have I studied, and much have I taught.8 Much Torah
                      > > > have I learnt, yet have I but skimmed from the knowledge of my teachers as
                      > > > much as a dog lapping from the sea. Much Torah have I taught, yet my
                      > > > disciples have only drawn from me as much as a painting stick from its tube.
                      > > > Moreover, I have studied three hundred laws on the subject of a deep bright
                      > > > spot,9 yet no man has ever asked me about them. Moreover, I have studied
                      > > > three hundred, (or, as others state, three thousand laws) about the planting
                      > > > of cucumbers [by magic] and no man, excepting Akiba b. Joseph, ever
                      > > > questioned me thereon. For it once happened that he and I were walking
                      > > > together on a road, when he said to me, "My master, teach me about the
                      > > > planting of cucumbers". I made one statement, and the whole field [about us]
                      > > > was filled with cucumbers. Then he said, "Master, you have taught me how to
                      > > > plant them, now teach me how to pluck them up". I said something and all the
                      > > > cucumbers gathered in one place'. His visitors then asked him, `What is the
                      > > > law of a ball, a shoemaker's last , an amulet, a leather bag containing
                      > > > pearls, and a small weight?'10 He replied, `They can become unclean, and if
                      > > > unclean, they are restored to their uncleanliness just as they are.'11 Then
                      > > > they asked him, `What of a shoe that is on the last?'12 He replied, `It is
                      > > > clean;' and in pronouncing this word his soul departed. Then R. Joshua arose
                      > > > and exclaimed, `The vow is annulled, the vow is annulled!'13 On the
                      > > > conclusion of the Sabbath R. Akiba met his bier being carried from Caesarea
                      > > > to Lydda. [In his grief] he beat his flesh until the blood flowed down upon
                      > > > the earth â€" Then R. Akiba commenced his funeral address, the mourners being
                      > > > lined up about the coffin, and said: `My father, my father, the chariot of
                      > > > Israel and the horsemen thereof;14 I have many coins, but no money changer
                      > > > to accept them.'15 Thus from this story we see that he learned this [sc. the
                      > > > producing of cucumbers by magic] from R. Eliezer? â€" He learned it from R.
                      > > > Eliezer, but did not grasp it, then he learned it from R. Joshua, who made
                      > > > it clear to him.
                      > > >
                      > > > But how might R. Eliezer do so?16 Did we not learn, IF HE ACTUALly PERFORMS
                      > > > MAGIC, HE IS LIABLE? â€" If it is only to teach, it is different. For it has
                      > > > been said, Thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of these
                      > > > nations:17 thou mayest not learn in order to practise, but thou mayest learn
                      > > > in order to understand.18
                      > > > (b. Sanhedrin 67a-68a to m.Sanhedrin 7)
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • Sam McConnich
                      iirc, and it has been years, those that claim it meant poisoner was a mistranslation of a mistranslation, so IT does go back to a wonders worker as time goes
                      Message 10 of 20 , Mar 11, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        iirc, and it has been years, those that claim it meant poisoner was a mistranslation of a mistranslation,
                        so IT does go back to a "wonders" worker
                        as time goes on words and their meanings alter
                        even in our modern world, look at "gay", in less than a centuary it has evolved i n meaning


                        From: tlg <taliesin.lothlorien.gaia@...>
                        To: abramelin@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 5:03:04 AM
                        Subject: Re: [abramelin] Re: The Torah and Abramelin Operation

                         

                        nice links, thanks =)

                        2010/3/11 Sam McConnich <rpgstarwizard@ yahoo.com>
                         



                        From: beast <fictivedreamer@ yahoo.com>
                        To: abramelin@yahoogrou ps.com
                        Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 12:21:11 PM
                        Subject: [abramelin] Re: The Torah and Abramelin Operation

                         

                        Excuse my naive criticism of your extremely detailed post, Yakov, but should we not be dealing with the original hebrew/aramaic here? I was told the actual quote was Thou shalt not suffer a poisoner to live, IE a hired assasin, not witch. King James translators have been known to misquote passages to make it easier to follow the train of thought.
                        If one goes into such detail, we should at least know the speaker's actual meaning in the original language, otherwise we're wastin time on "probabilities. "
                        My 2 cents

                        --- In abramelin@yahoogrou ps.com, tlg <taliesin.lothlorie n.gaia@.. .> wrote:
                        >
                        > yet again, another interesting post, thanks yakov =)
                        >
                        > 2010/2/19 yakov.benyakov <yakov.benyakov@ ...>
                        >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Talmudic Discussion on Sorcery vs. Practical Kabbalah
                        > >
                        > > MISHNAH. A MADDIAH IS ONE WHO SAYS, `LET US GO AND SERVE IDOLS'. A
                        > > SORCERER, IF HE ACTUALLY PERFORMS MAGIC, IS LIABLE [TO DEATH]. BUT NOT IF HE
                        > > MERELY CREATES ILLUSIONS.13 R. AKIBA SAID IN R. JOSHUA'S NAME: OF TWO WHO
                        > > GATHER CUCUMBERS [BY MAGIC] ONE MAY BE PUNISHED AND THE OTHER EXEMPT: HE WHO
                        > > REALLY GATHERS THEM IS PUNISHED: WHILST HE WHO PRODUCES AN ILLUSION IS
                        > > EXEMPT.
                        > >
                        > > GEMARA. Rab Judah said in Rab's name: This Mishnah teaches of those who
                        > > lead astray a seduced city.14
                        > >
                        > > A SORCERER, IF HE ACTUALLY PERFORMS MAGIC etc. Our Rabbis taught: [Thou
                        > > shalt not suffer] a witch [to live]:15 this applies to both man and woman.
                        > > If so, why is a [female] witch stated? â€" Because mostly women engage in
                        > > witchcraft. How are they executed? â€" R. Jose the Galilean said: Here it is
                        > > written, Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live; whilst elsewhere is written,
                        > > Thou shalt not suffer anything that breatheth to live.16 Just as there, the
                        > > sword is meant, so here is the sword meant too. R. Akiba said: It is here
                        > > stated, Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live; whilst elsewhere it is said,
                        > > [There shall not a hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot
                        > > through;] whether it be beast or man, it shall not live.17 Just as there,
                        > > death by stoning is meant, so here too. R. Jose said to him, I have drawn an
                        > > analogy between `Thou shalt not suffer to live' written in two verses,
                        > > whilst you have made a comparison between `Thou shalt not suffer to live',
                        > > and `It shall not live'. R. Akiba replied: I have drawn an analogy between
                        > > two verses referring to Israelites, for whom the Writ hath decreed many
                        > > modes of execution,18 whilst you have compared Israelites to heathens, in
                        > > whose case only [b.San. 67b] one death penalty is decreed.1 Ben `Azzai
                        > > said:2 It is here written, Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live, whilst
                        > > [immediately after] it is said, Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be
                        > > put to death.3 Now, this is placed in proximity, teaching that just as the
                        > > latter is stoned, so is the former. Thereupon R. Judah said to him: Shall
                        > > we, because of this proximity, exclude the former [from the easier death
                        > > implied by an unspecified death sentence] changing it to stoning?4 But
                        > > [reason this:] The ob and yidde'oni were included among other sorcerers.5
                        > > Why were they singled out?6 That other sorcerers may be assimilated to them,
                        > > and to teach thee, just as the ob and yidde'oni are stoned, so are all other
                        > > sorcerers stoned. But even according to R. Judah, are not ob and yidde'oni
                        > > two statements teaching the same thing, and two statements teaching the same
                        > > thing cannot throw light upon anything else?7 â€" R. Zechariah answered: For
                        > > this very reason R. Judah is generally said to maintain that even two
                        > > statements singled out for the same purpose illumine the proposition as a
                        > > whole.8
                        > >
                        > > R. Johanan said: Why are they [sorcerers] called Kashshafim?9 â€" Because
                        > > they lessen the power of the Divine agencies.10
                        > >
                        > > There is none else besides Him:11 R. Hanina said: Even by sorcery.12 A
                        > > woman once attempted to take earth from under R. Hanina's feet.13 He said to
                        > > her, `If you succeed in your attempts, go and practise it [sc. sorcery]: it
                        > > is written, however, There is none else beside him'. But that is not so, for
                        > > did not R. Johanan say: Why are they called mekashshefim? 14 Because they
                        > > lessen the power of the Divine agencies? â€" R. Hanina was in a different
                        > > category, owing to his abundant merit.15
                        > >
                        > > R. Abaye b. Nagri said in the name of R. Hiyya b. Abba: Belatehem refers to
                        > > magic through the agency of demons, belahatehem to sorcery [without outside
                        > > help].16 And thus it is also said, And the flame [Heb. lahat] of the sword
                        > > that turns of itself.17
                        > >
                        > > Abaye said: The sorcerer who insists on exact paraphernalia18 works through
                        > > demons; he who does not works by pure enchantment.
                        > >
                        > > Abaye said: The laws of sorcerers are like those of the Sabbath: certain
                        > > actions are punished by stoning, some are exempt from punishment, yet
                        > > forbidden, whilst others are entirely permitted. Thus: if one actually
                        > > performs magic, he is stoned; if he merely creates an illusion, he is
                        > > exempt, yet it is forbidden; whilst what is entirely permitted? â€" Such as
                        > > was performed by R. Hanina and R. Oshaia, who spent every Sabbath eve in
                        > > studying the Laws of Creation, by means of which they created a third-grown
                        > > calf and ate it.19
                        > >
                        > > R. Ashi said: I saw Karna's father20 blow his nose violently and streamers
                        > > of silk issued from his nostrils.
                        > >
                        > > Then the magicians said unto Pharoah, This is the finger of God:21 R.
                        > > Eleazar, said: This proves that a magician cannot produce a creature less
                        > > than a barley corn in size. R. Papa said: By God! he cannot produce even
                        > > something as large as a camel; but these [larger than a barley corn] he can
                        > > [magically] collect [and so produce the illusion that he has magically
                        > > created them], the others he cannot.
                        > >
                        > > Rab said to R. Hiyya: `I myself saw an Arabian traveller take a sword and
                        > > cut up a camel; then he rang a bell, at which the camel arose.' He replied,
                        > > `After that, was there any blood or dung? But that was merely an illusion.'
                        > >
                        > > Ze'iri happened to go to Alexandria in Egypt and bought an ass. When he was
                        > > about to water it, it dissolved, and there stood before him a landing
                        > > board.22 The vendors then said to him; `Were you not Ze'iri, we would net
                        > > return you [your money]: does anyone buy anything here without first testing
                        > > it by water?'23
                        > >
                        > > Jannai24 came to an inn. He said to them, `Give me a drink of water,' and
                        > > they offered him shattitha.25 Seeing the lips of the woman [who brought him
                        > > this] moving,26 he [covertly] spilled a little thereof, which turned to
                        > > snakes. Then he said, `As I have drunk of yours, now do you come and drink
                        > > of mine.' So he gave her to drink, and she was turned into an ass he then
                        > > rode upon her into the market. But her friend came and broke the charm
                        > > [changing her back into a human being], and so he was seen riding upon a
                        > > woman in public.
                        > >
                        > > And the frog came up, and covered the land of Egypt.27 R. Eleazar said: It
                        > > was one frog, which bred prolifically and filled the land. This is a matter
                        > > disputed by Tannaim. R. Akiba said: There was one frog which filled the
                        > > whole of Egypt [by breeding]. But R. Eleazar b. Azariah said to him, `Akiba,
                        > > What hast thou to do with Haggadah?28 Cease thy words and devote thyself to
                        > > `Leprosies' and `Tents.'29 One frog croaked for the others, and they came'.
                        > >
                        > > R. AKIBA SAID, etc. [b.San. 68a]
                        > >
                        > > But did R. Akiba learn this from R. Joshua? Surely it has been taught: When
                        > > R. Eliezer fell sick, R. Akiba and his companions went to visit him. He was
                        > > seated in his canopied four-poster, whilst they sat in his salon.1 That day
                        > > was Sabbath eve, and his son Hyrcanus went in to him to remove his
                        > > phylacteries. 2 But his father rebuked him, and he retreated crestfallen. `It
                        > > seems to me,' said he to them, `that my father's mind is deranged'.3 But R.
                        > > Akiba said to them, `his mind is clear, but his mother's [sc. of Hyrcanus]
                        > > is deranged:4 how can one neglect a prohibition which is punished by death,
                        > > and turn his attention to something which is merely forbidden as a
                        > > shebuth?'5 The Sages, seeing that his mind was clear, entered his chamber
                        > > and sat down at a distance of four cubits.6 `Why have ye come?' said he to
                        > > them. `To study the Torah', they replied; `And why did ye not come before
                        > > now', he asked? They answered, `We had no time'. He then said, `I will be
                        > > surprised if these die a natural death'. R. Akiba asked him, `And what will
                        > > my death be?' and he answered, `Yours will be more cruel than theirs'. He
                        > > then put his two arms over his heart, and bewailed them, saying, `Woe to
                        > > you, two arms of mine, that have been like two Scrolls of the Law that are
                        > > wrapped up.7 Much Torah have I studied, and much have I taught.8 Much Torah
                        > > have I learnt, yet have I but skimmed from the knowledge of my teachers as
                        > > much as a dog lapping from the sea. Much Torah have I taught, yet my
                        > > disciples have only drawn from me as much as a painting stick from its tube.
                        > > Moreover, I have studied three hundred laws on the subject of a deep bright
                        > > spot,9 yet no man has ever asked me about them. Moreover, I have studied
                        > > three hundred, (or, as others state, three thousand laws) about the planting
                        > > of cucumbers [by magic] and no man, excepting Akiba b. Joseph, ever
                        > > questioned me thereon. For it once happened that he and I were walking
                        > > together on a road, when he said to me, "My master, teach me about the
                        > > planting of cucumbers". I made one statement, and the whole field [about us]
                        > > was filled with cucumbers. Then he said, "Master, you have taught me how to
                        > > plant them, now teach me how to pluck them up". I said something and all the
                        > > cucumbers gathered in one place'. His visitors then asked him, `What is the
                        > > law of a ball, a shoemaker's last , an amulet, a leather bag containing
                        > > pearls, and a small weight?'10 He replied, `They can become unclean, and if
                        > > unclean, they are restored to their uncleanliness just as they are.'11 Then
                        > > they asked him, `What of a shoe that is on the last?'12 He replied, `It is
                        > > clean;' and in pronouncing this word his soul departed. Then R. Joshua arose
                        > > and exclaimed, `The vow is annulled, the vow is annulled!'13 On the
                        > > conclusion of the Sabbath R. Akiba met his bier being carried from Caesarea
                        > > to Lydda. [In his grief] he beat his flesh until the blood flowed down upon
                        > > the earth â€" Then R. Akiba commenced his funeral address, the mourners being
                        > > lined up about the coffin, and said: `My father, my father, the chariot of
                        > > Israel and the horsemen thereof;14 I have many coins, but no money changer
                        > > to accept them.'15 Thus from this story we see that he learned this [sc. the
                        > > producing of cucumbers by magic] from R. Eliezer? â€" He learned it from R.
                        > > Eliezer, but did not grasp it, then he learned it from R. Joshua, who made
                        > > it clear to him.
                        > >
                        > > But how might R. Eliezer do so?16 Did we not learn, IF HE ACTUALly PERFORMS
                        > > MAGIC, HE IS LIABLE? â€" If it is only to teach, it is different. For it has
                        > > been said, Thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of these
                        > > nations:17 thou mayest not learn in order to practise, but thou mayest learn
                        > > in order to understand.18
                        > > (b. Sanhedrin 67a-68a to m.Sanhedrin 7)
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >




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