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Further Questions

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  • Voltaire07
    dear friends, brothers and sisters one of my big problems still, is the origin of Abramelin. I mean the cultural background.The question that came up far after
    Message 1 of 5 , Jul 31, 2009
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      dear friends, brothers and sisters

      one of my big problems still, is the origin of Abramelin. I
      mean the
      cultural background.The question that came up far after the
      book was
      done, is the possible key for Abramelin's personality,
      offered by the psalms of repentance, or penance.

      Nevertheless, David and Khem as specialists in their own
      field or maybe some others: Is the
      question of penance a definite christian theme or is it as
      important
      in the Jewish beliefe?
      Is the question of penance a definite jewish origin, more
      neglected by
      the compiler Mohamed or does the Q'ran have a stress on that
      theme?

      These seven psalms have, merely from the literary point of
      view, a
      special importance and therefore could serve as a hint for
      Abramelins
      descendance. If we may think in such terms.This very
      independent spirit
      might have build his own thought structres. At least we
      could interpret the fact in
      the present time of AvW's visit.

      Another thing is mentioning "Adonay". Is this the name
      version of AvW as
      a born Jew, not leaving the tradition of his forefathers, or
      is it the
      word for God originally used by Abramelin?

      Which could be "the two books" that AvW had to copy while
      staying at Abramelin's place?

      Thank You and blessed be
      Georg
    • daniel culver
      Georg- I have been trying to get at the essence of your very question since I joined the group! It wasn t so much the topic of religion as it was how to
      Message 2 of 5 , Jul 31, 2009
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        Georg-
        I have been trying to get at the essence of your very question since I joined the group! It wasn't so much the topic of religion as it was how to approach the spirit of abramelin's personality/life. I was unsure if approaching through the sufi practices I'm familiar with would be adequate etc, etc.. not important right now, I guess.
         
        In light of that topic, however, I have read the q'uran several times practicing islam/sufism. There is more refuge seeking as opposed to 'penance' per se. Its interesting to note, that sufis have their own favorite passages from the quran, too ;)
         
        Surat-ikhlas,surat al-falaq,surat an-nas.. and others are considered refuge seeking. surat al-falaq (the daybreak) could also be considered a banishing passage.. ' in the name allah, the beneficent, the merciful. I seek refuge in the lord of daybreak/from the evil of that which he created./ From the evil of the darkness when it is intense,/and from the evil of malignant witchcraft/and from the evil of the envier when he envieth.'
         
        I wouldn't say penance is neglected, however. The practice of chanting astaghfirullah (God forgive me) is a very common  muslim/sufi practice. Following that train of thought, it is generally believed in islam that ascetic practices,fasting and chanting the lords name are forms of penance.

        --- On Fri, 7/31/09, Voltaire07 <voltaire07@...> wrote:

        From: Voltaire07 <voltaire07@...>
        Subject: [abramelin] Further Questions
        To: abramelin@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Friday, July 31, 2009, 1:17 AM

        dear friends, brothers and sisters

        one of my big problems still, is the origin of Abramelin. I
        mean the
        cultural background.The question that came up far after the
        book was
        done, is the possible key for Abramelin's personality,
        offered by the psalms of repentance, or penance.

        Nevertheless, David and Khem as specialists in their own
        field or maybe some others: Is the
        question of penance a definite christian theme or is it as
        important
        in the Jewish beliefe?
        Is the question of penance a definite jewish origin, more
        neglected by
        the compiler Mohamed or does the Q'ran have a stress on that
        theme?

        These seven psalms have, merely from the literary point of
        view, a
        special importance and therefore could serve as a hint for
        Abramelins
        descendance. If we may think in such terms.This very
        independent spirit
        might have build his own thought structres. At least we
        could interpret the fact in
        the present time of AvW's visit.

        Another thing is mentioning "Adonay". Is this the name
        version of AvW as
        a born Jew, not leaving the tradition of his forefathers, or
        is it the
        word for God originally used by Abramelin?

        Which could be "the two books" that AvW had to copy while
        staying at Abramelin's place?

        Thank You and blessed be
        Georg



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      • Athena
        At least some of the psalms from the Christian bible have roots in religions much older, Egyptian, Persian and so forth. Also could it be possible that
        Message 3 of 5 , Jul 31, 2009
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          At least some of the psalms from the Christian bible have roots in religions much older, Egyptian, Persian and so forth.  Also could it be possible that Abraham could have added in the psalms instead of what Abramelin may have originally had?  In workings and systems such as this oftentimes the teacher will tell the student to use the wisdom and works from their own religion.  Now this is a bit of a stretch I know, but I wonder, and something interesting to ponder :).

          Athena
          --
          www.enochian.org

          On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 1:17 AM, Voltaire07 <voltaire07@...> wrote:
          dear friends, brothers and sisters

          one of my big problems still, is the origin of Abramelin. I
          mean the
          cultural background.The question that came up far after the
          book was
          done, is the possible key for Abramelin's personality,
          offered by the psalms of repentance, or penance.

          Nevertheless, David and Khem as specialists in their own
          field or maybe some others: Is the
          question of penance a definite christian theme or is it as
          important
          in the Jewish beliefe?
          Is the question of penance a definite jewish origin, more
          neglected by
          the compiler Mohamed or does the Q'ran have a stress on that
          theme?

          These seven psalms have, merely from the literary point of
          view, a
          special importance and therefore could serve as a hint for
          Abramelins
          descendance. If we may think in such terms.This very
          independent spirit
          might have build his own thought structres. At least we
          could interpret the fact in
          the present time of AvW's visit.

          Another thing is mentioning "Adonay". Is this the name
          version of AvW as
          a born Jew, not leaving the tradition of his forefathers, or
          is it the
          word for God originally used by Abramelin?

          Which could be "the two books" that AvW had to copy while
          staying at Abramelin's place?

          Thank You and blessed be
          Georg



          ------------------------------------

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          --
          Odo cicle qaa
          --
          www.enochian.org
        • David Stolowitz
          Penance is very important in Judaism as well as Christianity. Yom Kippor - the Day of Atonement - is the holiest day of the year. There are many Jews who will
          Message 4 of 5 , Jul 31, 2009
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            Penance is very important in Judaism as well as Christianity. Yom Kippor - the Day of Atonement - is the holiest day of the year. There are many Jews who will turn out for Yom Kippor who are otherwise not observant and are not seen during the rest of the year. I always remember it being a huge pain in the ass - I think I actually got sick two years in a row on Yom Kippor cause I was so "sick" of the preceedings - especially when they'd try to guilt trip everyone into giving money to the State of Israel at the end of services. It is sad commentary on the condition of things.

            It is generally believed that people have an inevitable tendency to sin and so measures are provided through which resolution can come about. Judaism doesn't share the 'original sin' thesis of Christianity. One of the most important principles and verses from the Torah is that the commandments (mitzvot) "are not in Heaven, that you should say 'who can reach them?'" and "are not below the sea, that you should say 'who will fetch them for us?" (paraphrase). The idea is that a moral life is very practical and doable and that the law is not that complicated or complex that it requires superhuman effort to observe it. IMHO, this principle is constantly broken by both rabbinic Judaism and exoteric Christianity, who are constantly placing unnecessary obstacles (aka "stumbling blocks") between people and God. Abraham VW was himself very critical of these practices, and was ostracized from communities because of it. I don't know enough about Quran or Islam to be able to comment on that tradition.

            Adonai has been used since at least the time of the second temple. Adon is a title meaning lord and is also found with Adonis Tammuz/Dumuzi, the lover of Lady Ishtar. Adonai is the plural possessive - ie, "My (Twice) Great Lord(s)" In the middle ages I believe, people started reserving Adonai for use in prayer only, and using HaShem (The Name) for more casual conversation and teaching. AVW's use of Lord or Adonai (as translated by Dehn) is interesting because it is both a declaration of the sanctity of the work, a throwback to earlier times (as with much of Abramelin), and a generalization that opens the work to Christians and others through use of a shared term.

            I think the two books that Abraham compied were likely the last two books of Abramelin itself, considering that the first book is about Abraham's journey and the second is his personal recipe book for sympathetic scripture magic. This would make sense, considering that Book 3 is the Theurgic Invocation book - ie, the initiatory working, and Book 4 is the Thaumaturgic Evocation book - the Book of Applications that teaches one how to use the Power once it is obtained.
          • daniel culver
            Well said Athena and David. Maybe the reading/reciting of the repentant psalms is supposed to soften the ego s grip on the soul.. and therefore make the
            Message 5 of 5 , Jul 31, 2009
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              Well said Athena and David.

              Maybe the reading/reciting of the repentant psalms is supposed to soften the ego's grip on the soul.. and therefore make the operation a little smoother? Speaking from ignorance, obviously, due to me not being of age for the rite yet.
               
              As for their cultural origin, I think athena is correct again..
              at the bottom of that article is a section on 'links to judaism'?
               
               
               

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